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I finished the first book a couple of weeks ago. I really like the writing, it's a little bit dense and requires more effort than usual for the genre. I picked it up after finishing ASOIAF and if I were to compare the two series, I'd say that A Song of Ice and Fire reads like a TV series (I thought that even before the show was announced) and Malazan reads like the best pen and paper campaign ever. The action sequences were superb and what really endeared the book to me was that the only two remotely sexual relationships were actually platonic crushes. No underage rape in this one! Alas, then I picked up Deadhouse Gates...
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Jan 27, 2012 12:04
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mcustic posted:I picked it up after finishing ASOIAF and if I were to compare the two series, I'd say that A Song of Ice and Fire reads like a TV series (I thought that even before the show was announced) and Malazan reads like the best pen and paper campaign ever. I like this analogy, not just for the obvious reason, but because when I used to play D&D and V:tM and Battletech the sourcebooks and histories and poo poo were always my favorite thing about them (that and designing awesome characters). I liked them more than actually playing the games.
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Jan 27, 2012 12:22
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mcustic posted:I finished the first book a couple of weeks ago. I really like the writing, it's a little bit dense and requires more effort than usual for the genre. He does have some horrible sexual stuff but it's generally treated as this terrible thing. He also tends pace it out pretty well, it's nowhere near GURM levels of pedos and incest everywhere. The series also avoids most of the really bad tropes around sexual violence. I haven't heard too many real complaints about this stuff in his books.
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Jan 27, 2012 20:29
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NovemberMike posted:He does have some horrible sexual stuff but it's generally treated as this terrible thing. He also tends pace it out pretty well, it's nowhere near GURM levels of pedos and incest everywhere. The series also avoids most of the really bad tropes around sexual violence. I haven't heard too many real complaints about this stuff in his books. My major complaints about sexual stuff is that sexual depravity is often used as signal to the reader that "this is a bad guy/person", which is a cheap way to get reader sympathy and is tension with a lot of his themes about the interrelationship between barbarism, justice, and heroism. Some examples of this are (spoilers through Dust of Dreams) - Janath's rape and prison abuse in Reaper's Gale. - Hetan's hobbling and continual rapes in Dust of Dreams The hobbling subplot really bugged me because the way it was brought up and implemented reserved the behavior for the the enemies of Tool, Hetan, and the rest of the Senan even though Erickson made it clear that hobbling was an accepted cultural practice of the Barghast.
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Jan 27, 2012 20:42
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Biggest thing regarding rape in Malazan compared to ASOIAF is that women in the Malazan universe don't exist solely to be raped to show how completely gritty this place is or how bad this person is, and the use of it tends to gravitate more toward the way it effects the victim as a character instead of the pure shock value it's used for in ASOIAF. Hell, the one time I can remember where it IS used for real shock value to set up grittiness has men as the victims. Though I suppose that is really a different subject. Personally, the way Erikson writes his females compared to other authors is part of why I enjoy this series so much more than others 
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Jan 28, 2012 01:20
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Are these K'Chain Che'Malle?
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Jan 28, 2012 01:30
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Yes they are and they are awesome.
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Jan 28, 2012 01:35
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"Book's missing a little something. Hmm. Just the thing."
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Jan 28, 2012 02:23
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Sir Bruce posted:My major complaints about sexual stuff is that sexual depravity is often used as signal to the reader that "this is a bad guy/person", which is a cheap way to get reader sympathy and is tension with a lot of his themes about the interrelationship between barbarism, justice, and heroism. This was my biggest problem with Reaper's Gale. Invictad, Yathvenar and the other Patriotists are never characterized as anything but sadistic, short-sighted, emotionally crippled, horrible, vile people. We never feel any sympathy for them, because they are never given the chance to be sympathetic. Erikson can clearly write complex, sympathetic "villains" -witness Kallor- so it kind of mystifies me that he chose to portray the Patriotists in such a cartoonish moustache-twirling way. I was actually offended by the rape scenes in RG, because they were so unnecessarily drawn out. It seems to me that Erikson robbed the scenes of any emotional power they might have had by making them so prolonged, and so disgustingly graphic.
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Jan 28, 2012 03:58
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Juaguocio posted:This was my biggest problem with Reaper's Gale. Invictad, Yathvenar and the other Patriotists are never characterized as anything but sadistic, short-sighted, emotionally crippled, horrible, vile people. We never feel any sympathy for them, because they are never given the chance to be sympathetic. Erikson can clearly write complex, sympathetic "villains" -witness Kallor- so it kind of mystifies me that he chose to portray the Patriotists in such a cartoonish moustache-twirling way. The worst part is that Tehol&Bugg and the other guy are making jokes and witty banter while standing over a brutally beaten and raped woman. Talk about bad timing and ruining those characters. Reaper's Gale overall is really bad though, except for Beak and Trull.
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Jan 28, 2012 04:15
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Electronico6 posted:The worst part is that Tehol&Bugg and the other guy are making jokes and witty banter while standing over a brutally beaten and raped woman. Talk about bad timing and ruining those characters. Still on Reaper's Gale: It's also pretty bad that Erickson uses Bugg as an out by memory wiping Janath's tramautic experience so that Janath can join in the witty banter brigade instead of dealing with issues she may have had being serially raped and abused. "Oh it's better this way" and everyone merrily agrees. Edit: Just adding the thought that the complaints about sex aside, I think Erickson's overall treatment of women should be commended. His portrayals of women (as well as men) run the gamut, from feminine to masculine, from passive and submissive to dominant and aggressive. He has matriarchal societies and patriarchal societies. Women are good and bad soldiers, just like men. It is not particularly important that Tavore is a woman. It's a clear step above most fantasy writers in that regard (see: GRRM or Rothfuss for recent comparisons). Sir Bruce fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Jan 28, 2012 |
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Jan 28, 2012 06:37
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^^^^^ That sums up my thoughts on the issue pretty well. More RG spoilers I've just started TTH so I don't know if I'll be seeing Janath again, but the entire thing with Bugg just trivializes the whole experience and makes the time spent on it even more baffling. I'm thinking she's carrying a child of the dead seed or something similarly awful will happen to make her confront the issue, but if that's where her story ends I'll be disappointed. As far as the patriotists go, I'm inclined to agree with Juaguocio. Erikson has explored similar themes with other characters in a more sympathetic light. They seem to lack his usually subtlety, any thoughts as to why that is? I don't want to sound like a fanboy but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knew he was creating these unbelievably villainous characters. Is it a lesson on the dangers of autonomy? Some sort of grotesque metaphor? Or is it just a bit of ham-fisted writing? Pokeylope fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Jan 28, 2012 |
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Jan 28, 2012 08:06
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I haven't read RG, so can't say. But I encourage you to ask these questions when Tor reread reaches that book and Erikson is up for Q&A. He'll surely answer you directly.
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Jan 28, 2012 09:54
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The Malazan series isn't perfect and I do agree with some of the comments on its usage of rape, but the point isn't that it's perfect, just that it doesn't have the same bad tendencies as other works, or at least to the same degree. The big problem with the way he dealt with Janath and the Patriotists is that it's different from the rest of the series. He normally deals with good and evil fairly delicately and he just didn't in this case. I'm hoping it leads to something later on.
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Jan 28, 2012 20:20
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So I just finished TCG. I think I have a million questions now.  all the spoilers are full series spoilers Did the Kallor story just never wrap up? Is he still just doomed to live forever and be surly? How about Laseen? Her story was abandoned after Tavore made her escape from Malazan City. When Tavore and Ganoes finally meet, is the "she" Tavore is referring to Felisin? Did anyone else find it absurd that Silchas and Tulas and friends all survived? Did I miss the part of the story where you learn all about Greymane and why he is a huge badass? Was Silverfox running away with all Imass just a dues ex machina to make the last fight seem more balanced? Was anyone else annoyed by the fact that Forkrul Assail talked about opening up their warren all the time and then nothing really ever came of it? Basically all the pures were assassinated and never did anything super awesome. Overall, I found books 1-5 to be more engaging. I read 6-10 to solve all the mysteries laid out in the previous books. I have a bunch more questions and thoughts, but I literally finished the last book 20 minutes ago and am still trying to piece it all together. I do feel like Erikson lost interest in a lot of characters as the series went on and it caused their storylines to suffer for it.
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Jan 28, 2012 23:22
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Benson Cunningham posted:How about Laseen? Her story was abandoned after Tavore made her escape from Malazan City. Refer to the works of ICE.
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Jan 28, 2012 23:42
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I just realized as I was reading earlier today, that the books I have read are pretty much devoid of all those long, arduous descriptions of feasts and the food. At last in the first four books. Granted, the only other fantasy series I have read are ASOIAF, LoTR, and Sword of Truth (I think).
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Jan 29, 2012 02:59
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Isn't every scene Kruppe is in basically the series' full allotment of food descriptions?
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Jan 29, 2012 03:17
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Kruppe himself is the series' full allotment of food description. Man, if the Pannion Domin ever got their hands on him...
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Jan 29, 2012 03:35
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angerbeet posted:Isn't every scene Kruppe is in basically the series' full allotment of food descriptions? If you can find 2 consecutive pages where Kruppe is and food isn't, you aren't reading the original text of an Erikson book.
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Jan 29, 2012 06:02
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Benson Cunningham posted:Was Silverfox running away with all Imass just a dues ex machina to make the last fight seem more balanced? Hmm, weren't they running off to Assail to fight the really nasty bastards that rule the place? If so, pretty sure ICE will visit that particular plot line too.
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Jan 29, 2012 06:31
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There's food, yes, but not the full fledged feasts with 9 courses that you get to hear about in Gurm's books with pidgeon pies and lemoncakes or the meals and accompanying music/songs in LoTR.
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Jan 29, 2012 07:21
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Has anyone got any impressions for orb scepter throne? Looks like it's available outside the United States now. Finished it now and I liked it quite a bit (disclaimer: I also liked the other ICE books). Writing again has improved and the plot was mostly very interesting. The characters were mostly very much as they are in Erikson's hands Lady Envy was the exception for me. I had only one issue with the book: When the Malazan Army makes their stand against the Seguleh. Firstly - crossbows should work very nicely, no reason to fight this as pitched melee battle. I know ICE removed the mages and munition for just that reason, but the soldiers should still have ranged weaponry. Enough bolts and the Seguleh can't evade/deflect them any longer. But only when Fist Steppen defended the fort they used them. Secondly, the reaction by the Malazans when the Seguleh get blown to pieces. It seemed completely out of place. Crying and mourning for the guys who just murdered half your comrades? Because they got blown up "unfairly" by an air bomb raid? Why? The Malazan sappers do that stuff with enemy infantry all the time, just not from the air, but with minefields, throwing weapons, rigged infrastructure. The Malazans have fought for years next to the Moranth, they surely have seen such tactics before. High Mages kill thousands in seconds, without the victims even seeing them. And now this reaction for 400 faceless Seguleh? Doesn't fit at all, them reacting like they just saw the T'lan Imass razing Y'Ghatan or Leoman burning Y'Ghatan Illuyankas posted:e: Also Esslemont you may have changed that one pretty loving major character's gender as (possibly) a reference to how you and Erikson view your collective creation differently, and even included a method for how it could have happened, but it was still a stupid, pointless and unneeded change. Pretty sure we will see a reason for K'rul's gender bender sooner or later, as the change was mentioned as odd in the book. Decius fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jan 30, 2012 |
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Jan 30, 2012 16:20
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Benson Cunningham posted:So I just finished TCG. I think I have a million questions now. I think the series ends the way it started; unceremoniously dropped off with a whole bunch of questions. We basically see a segment of an overall story and while some threads get answered, others do continue on without us ever knowing. What's interesting is we see the Bridge Burners effectively getting destroyed in GOTM and we have no idea why they're so special. During the course of the series, we see the growth of the Bonehunters and as the last book ends, the BH effectively become just as badass as the Bridgeburners. It's kind of like that I feel. Lyer fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jan 30, 2012 |
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Jan 30, 2012 19:32
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Lyer posted:I think the series ends the way it started; unceremoniously dropped off with a whole bunch of questions. We basically see a segment of an overall story and while some threads get answered, others do continue on without us ever knowing. It's also quite cool that there's the ever present hints of back story, which show Dassem and his First Sword were once the Malazan badass squad. The rise and fall of [ ] is definitely a theme in the series.
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Jan 30, 2012 20:40
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It's unfortunate that the argument against Malazan in the fantasy/sci-fi thread has basically come down to "It has dumb looking words in it". There are legitimate complaints about the series, but they only seem of interest to a couple people. Everyone else begins and ends at "It has dumb looking words in it." e: I was just thinking, does it seem to anyone else like the more ornate a word is, the more ancient its origins? Conduit for Sale! fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 01:32
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Yeah the apostrophe argument they're making in the thread is pretty dumb. I can only remember four instances of it in a name. In T'lan Imass and specifically T'oolan, where iirc the apostrophe implies those guys are dead, the K'Chain Che'Malle who are ancient dinosaurs that likely talked weirdly if at all, and that Prince D'Avore guy which is more or less the same thing as having DiMaggio or McDonald as your last name. If people are going to dismiss the series on archaic names then I guess they deserve to miss out on the books. edit: oh and D'ivers too, surprised I forgot about that one.
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Jan 31, 2012 01:55
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There's a few more. Erikson does like his glottal stops, that's for sure. I just don't understand why it's a problem. Do some people just fly into a rage whenever they see or hear a glottal stop? The better hope they never find themselves in the company of people who speak Arabic, then. Erikson does use a handful dumb words in his books, but luckily books are full of words, so if I don't like one I can move on to the next. e: I think with this new-ish wave of gritty, realistic low fantasy that spurns traditional fantasy tropes, people are getting into fantasy who previously hated, or just got tired of, the more traditional fantasy. But Malazan, while it may seem to be of the more gritty and realistic fantasy on first glance, is firmly rooted in traditional fantasy. So people get into it thinking it's going to be like ASoIaF, but instead find what they were trying to get away from. And that's probably pretty off-putting. Personally though, what other people hate about the series I tend to love (not the dumb words, the other stuff). Conduit for Sale! fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 02:36
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The series has a lot of dumb names in general, apostrophes or not. It's not a reason to not read the books IMO, but it is a reason to hope the "named after the first item on his desk he saw" dies pretty quickly.
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Jan 31, 2012 03:01
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The worst is K'Chain Che'Malle. Why couldn't he just pick one of those words?
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Jan 31, 2012 03:02
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Conduit for Sale! posted:The worst is K'Chain Che'Malle. Why couldn't he just pick one of those words? My theory is Erickson and ICE rolled for every character in the name.
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Jan 31, 2012 03:13
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Conduit for Sale! posted:There's a few more. Erikson does like his glottal stops, that's for sure. I just don't understand why it's a problem. Do some people just fly into a rage whenever they see or hear a glottal stop? The better hope they never find themselves in the company of people who speak Arabic, then. One thing I've noticed since I started the series a couple of years ago here and elsewhere is that when people have poor, kneejerk reactions to the series, it's typically over one of two things: 1. Apostrophes. 2. The fact that it's actually fantasy, with mages, gods, dragons (that actually do poo poo), etc. Really just the fact that magic plays a large role in the series at all. This alienates people faster than anything and I have no idea why (I also typically see "ANIME" thrown around when this is being complained about). Yet the second point is why I love the series and partly why it's at the top of the genre for me, and I honestly don't get the appeal of low fantasy. I found ASoIaF incredibly boring, from a world, character, and storytelling perspective (say what you want about Erikson, but at least he understands the concepts of proper story and character arcs, plotting, build-up, and climax), yet even the biggest slogs of Malazan (Toll the Hounds  ) typically at least kept me wanting to read further because it always leads somewhere incredible (Toll the Hounds  ).
Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 03:51
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There have been a few complaints in the past that Erikson wasn't gentle enough with new readers. Not enough exposition, too many characters, don't know what's going on, etc. If you don't have much experience with that kind of Fantasy/Sci-Fi it may be hard to know when it's ok to gloss over some world-building details that For example, I liked forming my own impressions about how warrens work or what they are based on the things I saw characters do with them or the details that we got. I imagine that's how most mages in the world are exposed to them- learning things in bits an pieces. Kulp does it when he takes what he knows about Meanas and realizes how he can use it to get out of the Nascent. That kind of experience over time gives me a more visceral impression of how the world works that if Erikson just explicitly explained how Quick Ben wove Telas, Serc, and Mockra together to make balefire (bad example, Robert Jordan does a good job easing people into the magic physics behind his system). It seems vaster and more mysterious, which appeals to me more than a Sandersonesque system where a the magic rules are countable and probably defined before the book is written (although I like Sanderson pretty well, too). I also don't mind the Dragonball Z crazy magic fights much, either. This is basically a mythological-level setting, with gods and demons and all kinds of stuff. It would be unrealistic if some of them didn't have the powers that they do. Most of the cast of characters have the ability to get a hit in occasionally too, unless their specific narrative purpose is to emphasize mortality, human helplessness, the horrors of war, or some other aspect of ennui or pathos. The only times I get a disconnect are when there's a character that doesn't seem to do anything or have a purpose relative to the story (or whose storyline is done better by other characters in other Malazan novels). Ghelel from Return of the Crimson Guard springs to mind. The biggest legitimate complaint I've seen is the vast number of warrior-philosophers that populate the armies of the Malazan universe. Even the most ignorant heavy infantryman has the ability to provide an extensive treatise on whatever is going on around them, punctuated with a burp or someone accidentally cutting off his own thumb.
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Jan 31, 2012 05:36
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Donkey posted:There have been a few complaints in the past that Erikson wasn't gentle enough with new readers. Not enough exposition, too many characters, don't know what's going on, etc. If you don't have much experience with that kind of Fantasy/Sci-Fi it may be hard to know when it's ok to gloss over some world-building details that This. this is why I recommend starting Midnight Tides before going full-bore into the main series. It is a coherent and self-contained narrative and you don't have to slog through Gardens of the Moon and Memories of Ice to get a good barometer of Erikson's style of writing, and whether or not it is your cup of tea.
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Jan 31, 2012 06:06
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angerbeet posted:The series has a lot of dumb names in general, apostrophes or not. Sure there are some, but the same is true for actual names given to actual people in this country and others. Parâkramabâhu, Vimaladharmasuriya, Köprülü Mehmed Pasha, Nevşehirli Damat İbrahim Pasha, Gāoguìxiāng Gōng, Tai Situ Changchub Gyaltse, Ultrogotha, Faileube, Kaʻahumanu, Puleʻanga Fakatuʻi ʻo Tonga, Tāufaʻāhau, Q'umarkaj, Hope, Chastity, Glory, Joy, Faith, ... Same for descriptive names and nicknames. Half the Jewish names have a meaning in Hebrew, nearly all Arabic ones. My own name is a descriptive name in Latin. Is Caligula ('little boot') really better than 'Hedge', only because the source is more removed from us? Erikson's names are tame and simple compared to stuff you encounter in reading a history book.
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Jan 31, 2012 07:42
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I think we can conclude names in general are all pretty dumb. But to me what is important is not whether the names are dumb or not but whether the names are memorable. I personally liked the contrast between having names like K'Chain Che'Malle and Anomander Rake and then having people named Quick Ben and Smiles wandering around. A name like Drizzt Do'Urden will always stick even after you're done reading the book, which is especially important for Malazan since there's multiple books. But someone named like John or Mary you'll forget right away. Unless you add Snow to their name or something apparently and always call them by their full name. All the philosophy is a very valid complaint but it's unrelated since someone dismissing the book early on would not see them. Vanilla Mint Ice fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 09:00
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Last night while I should have been sleeping, I was reading a couple chapters in House of Chains, and drat, what a confluence of events in just those two chapters. Not sure where to start, so I'll just go by what I remember. First of al the fight at the Throne of Shadows where Cotillion shows up. I guess we know how he got the name The Rope now. What I don't understand is the man that was with the Malazans in the cave now taking over the defense of the Throne. I don't think his actual name was given just that he was called Traveler. I also don't understand what happened with the Hound of Shadow that Cutter (Crokus) called on to help. Instead it just sat there until Cotillion showed up? Did the Tiste Edur say something to keep the Hound from attacking because they know how to control it? Cool battle scene, anyway. I also remember Onrack binding(?) himself to Trull during the ritual with the Tiste Liosan that were trying to open the warren of Kurald Thyrall. And then the other Imass there that were hunting Onrack stepped inside the gate to kill the false god, who happens to be the familiar of L'oric in the Whirlwind who also happens to be Tiste Edur. So with 3 of the Imass in the warren of fire, the 4th was pursuing Onrack and Trull in his gorilla Soletaken form. Did the boncaster not enjoy Onrack binding himself to Trull? Again, not exactly sure what happened at that part. Ghost Hands becomes the Destraint of Treach while on a bad trip of Hen'bara tea. So the Jade figures have something to do with the House of Chains and the Otataral is there to keep it in place, and where ever there is otataral in the world, there will be a jade figure nearby? The otataral being there for a purpose was described earlier. So there may be another jade figure near the Teblor homelands since that is what bloodoil was made with. In the same vein we have L'oric. I am not sure of his motivations. Was he the guardian of that warren and pretending to be a god? Or was he trying to keep the Crippled God from infesting the warren with poison and the Imass ruined that so he sought help from the Queen of Dreams? After L'oric wakes up from the trance, he senses young Felisin nearby who had been violated by Bidithal, and Felisin is now going to be "working" for Karsa's gods for revenge. Lastly we have Kalam who killed a demon trapped since the time of the T'lan Imass. There was a blurb after that fight about a chained Toblokai of pure blood under where the demon was that used to be possessed. And then Iskaral Pust comes out of nowhere and finds Kalam. I like Pust. There was a lot packed into those two chapters.
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Jan 31, 2012 14:20
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pakman posted:Last night while I should have been sleeping, I was reading a couple chapters in House of Chains, and drat, what a confluence of events in just those two chapters. I might have forgot some things, but... The Rope is Cotillion's title, just as Ammanas has the title "Shadowthrone". Traveller's name will be revealed later. It'd be a major spoiler, so I won't spoil it. The Edur were the original masters of Shadow, and the hound recognised it's rightful masters. The Otataral is suppressing the Jade Statues, which are linked to the Crippled God. Otataral itself isn't related to the Jade though. It's simply something that happens when a huge magical discharge happens. Just as heat and pressure can morph rocks, huge amounts of magic can. It then creates what can best be described as anti-magic. The eldest magics don't seem to be affected though, suggesting newer magics perhaps "draw" magic from their surroundings, and drawing too much can cause a physical scar that hampers said drawing? That's more my theory than anything though. And yeah, Pust is awesome. He's definitely a LOT more than he seems.
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Jan 31, 2012 14:51
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Masonity posted:I might have forgot some things, but... I completely forgot to mention the Otataral Dragon(!) that was cruicified in the Imperial Warren (?) that Pearl and Lostara are/were in. I remembered that between the time I posted and the time I arrived at work a couple minutes ago. Which got me thinking about the deck of dragons. Since all dragons are aspected, each card would have a dragon associated with it in some form? Are dragons actually important to the Deck? A lot of interesting things were brought up, and I can't wait to continue reading after class tonight.
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Jan 31, 2012 15:03
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If the names aren't off-putting because they came straight off an apostrophe happy random name generator, they are off-putting because they are too simple, either because they were named after the first thing Erikson saw on his desk, or because they encapsulate some essence of the character: Blend, Bottle, Blues, Breath, Burnt, Bugg, Bowl, Bluepearl, Blind, Bent, Bell, Beak, Balm And those are just the B's. He's got lots of character names that are nouns or verbs. But there are names that do work for me: Ganoes Paran. Felisin. Caladan Brood. I like those.
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Jan 31, 2012 18:07
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