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Trouble Man posted:Well, yes. We have particular obligations the Finns don't have. It's our duty to meet them, even if that means we spend more for the same outcomes (i.e. funding kura kaupapa, more te reo teachers, etc.) There is no inherent reason that that should make education relatively more costly than a monocultural society's though.
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Jan 28, 2012 23:35
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Install Gentoo posted:There is no inherent reason that that should make education relatively more costly than a monocultural society's though. In the long run, it probably won't. But we're still basically trying to rebuild te Reo and so on from the brink of death, so it does for now - te Reo fluent teachers are as rare as hen's teeth, for example. In a genuinely multicultural society - not the one we have, which is a Pakeha society where brown people get to live - some of those skills shortages and disadvantages will (ideally) fade away. But until they do, it's our duty to make it right.
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Jan 28, 2012 23:40
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The public education system here (like all public education systems) was an industrial institution at its inception. As such its tailored basically to white middle class urban kids. These are the kids that are advantaged by the school system currently - segregating the education system wouldn't benefit them any more than they already are. The task is to become more responsive to other cultural groups, be they lower class, Maori, Somalian, whatever. If you want this backed up by something just have a look at any educational theory. I'd recommend a book called Reproduction in education, society and culture, by Pierre Bourdieu. There's also the fact that the education system has already recognised this and begun responding to the problem; in 2007 there was a new national curriculum released which gave schools much more freedom to tailor their content to the needs of their community. There's also the Kura Kaupapa Maori initiative which was founded on these ideas. I could go on if you want. So when I say that our education system is second only to monocultural countries like Finland, North Korea etc it's because we rank lower than them due to a tail of under achievement in which Maori and Pasifika (in particular) are over represented - 40% and 50% of Maori and Pasifika students don't achieve NCEA level 1 respectively, compared with 20% overall. I'm sure it's similar for other cultural groups as well, but unfortunately schools here are only required to report on the achievement of Maori, Pasifika, NZ European and "Other". And yeah I'm sorry, but if the first thing that sprang to mind when I raised this point is that segregation would make schools better then perhaps it's not me who's the racist?
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Jan 29, 2012 00:53
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Trouble Man posted:If you are really interested, WAI 262 (particularly the bits on te Reo) is a good start. But there are some good WAI reports from the 1980s as well. I read this: http://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/doclibrary/public/reports/generic/Wai0262/Wai262Factsheet6TeReoMaori.pdf there doesn't appear to be anything in there suggesting that its hard to get a good education when the education is tailored to a variety of cultures and backgrounds. In fact, it doesn't appear relevant at all. It appears to discuss how hard it has been to get te reo to be taught in schools, and the history of trying to integrate these two cultures in education. It doesn't seem to say that teaching tailored to teach moari, scottish, irish, chinese, indian, samoan or english students is less effective at achieving good education outcomes - the students will be less good at calculus or social studies or whatever.
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Jan 29, 2012 01:51
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klen dool posted:I read this: Nobody is saying that, though. But it does cost more, it does require specialized staff, and it does mean that comparisons with monocultural societies are not always valid. Leaving aside that the fact sheet isn't the whole report, nor is it the evidence adduced to that report (which I don't really blame you for not reading, the full WAI 262 report and supporting documents run to hundreds and hundreds of pages and they only scratch the surface - there's another contemporary claim about education running now which may well be even longer).
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Jan 29, 2012 01:59
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fong posted:And yeah I'm sorry, but if the first thing that sprang to mind when I raised this point is that segregation would make schools better then perhaps it's not me who's the racist? It's extremely common for racists justify some aspect of society being worse by saying that it's because of multiculturalism. That you don't realize that there was no reason to mention that other places were monocultural when discussing education, and that saying it means you sounded like a racist, is on you.
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Jan 29, 2012 01:59
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So what about that Bob Parker eh? What a dick.
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Jan 29, 2012 02:17
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What the hell are you guys talking about education for, when  SBW stole some dudes girlfriend! Literally front page news
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Jan 29, 2012 02:33
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So do you guys think it's worth bailing once I have some IT Certs and experience under my belt. I think it is. edit gently caress this country 
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Jan 29, 2012 03:58
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TetsuoTW posted:So what about that Bob Parker eh? What a dick. I think the odds of them all being out on their rear end by the end of March is high.
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Jan 29, 2012 04:14
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ClubmanGT posted:Uh a significant number secondary school leavers can't read or write This. This pisses me off no end. Poorly punctuated jabs at the education system. Le sigh. As someone who has worked in a adult literacy field I can assure you that the NZ school system churns much the same number of people with literacy problems as the rest of the English speaking world. We have a "literacy problem", but it's the same size as the problem in Australia and England. But please, don't let your lack of understanding of literacy, let alone the education system, stop you from parrotting right-wing talking points. edit/Education Counts has some well written and detailed analysis of the latest survey. Go read - the whole thing is a fascinating look at literacy, and its place in our society (education system/labour market et al) with lots of context. http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/literacy/5731 Education Counts posted:The comparison of international data must be interpreted cautiously. While every attempt was made to ensure the rigour of the methodology, it is not always possible to eliminate all differences between countries’ samples using statistical methods. Inter-country comparisons must also take into consideration the range of different population contexts which influence literacy. These include different educational and training experiences, differing levels of dominant-language speakers, and differing age profiles. The specific mix of migrant groups, people who have been educated at home and abroad, as well as those who have recently completed qualifications, and those who may have completed their schooling many decades ago is unique to each country. Having said this, comparisons do allow a degree of benchmarking and highlight similarities and differences between countries. dusty fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 04:15
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Just visiting MY GIRLFRIEND's mother in hospital, where she is recirving tens of thousands of dollars worth of care at a total cost to her of 21 dollars so far. It's not all bad in New Zealand.
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Jan 29, 2012 04:24
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Install Gentoo posted:It's extremely common for racists justify some aspect of society being worse by saying that it's because of multiculturalism. That you don't realize that there was no reason to mention that other places were monocultural when discussing education, and that saying it means you sounded like a racist, is on you. I mentioned it to highlight the fact that we have the best multicultural education system in the world. Which is not to say that it doesn't still have a lot improving to do. anyway I get the feeling that people are getting sick of education chat
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Jan 29, 2012 04:29
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dusty posted:But please, don't let your lack of understanding of literacy, let alone the education system, stop you from parrotting right-wing talking points. Yea my right wing talking point about how our education system needs to better resourced at almost every level. From what I can tell, 14% of students leave school without hitting NCEA Level One literacy requirements. Forgive me for wanting everyone to be able to read and write. For someone making GBS threads on my lack of understanding of literacy, you sure missed my point.
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Jan 29, 2012 04:45
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Trouble Man posted:Just visiting MY GIRLFRIEND's mother in hospital, where she is recirving tens of thousands of dollars worth of care at a total cost to her of 21 dollars so far. It's not all bad in New Zealand. I have a family member who gets a thousand dollar syringe per fortnight; it costs $12 a year. But this aint the NHS. We need dental coverage for people over 18+. My reasoning: dental grads have $150,000 student loans and good international prospects; minimum wage starts @ $13hr. Unless one of these preconditions change poor people aren't going to have any level of dental care at all.
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Jan 29, 2012 04:46
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ClubmanGT posted:From what I can tell, 14% of students leave school without hitting NCEA Level One literacy requirements. Forgive me for wanting everyone to be able to read and write. The reality is worse than you think. 42% of adult NZers have such a low level of literacy that they are unsafe/unfit to be in the workplace. The point being however, that this isn't exceptional. You've failed to understand the context of the problem, and are freaking out about outcomes wihtout understanding what you're looking at. The fact that only 14% of students leave school without hitting NCEA Level 1 literacy requirements is a minor miracle. 20% of children live in poverty, NZ funds child education waaaay under the OECD average, we score in the top handful of nations. And you're taking an Anne Tolley shaped poo poo on NZ schools?
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Jan 29, 2012 05:01
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and the worst part is that the government is dumping on education at the moment so they can try and push through misguided reforms. Like seriously they're trialling a charter school system from the states, where 42% of charter schools decreased student achievement and only 17% raised it. All in the name of some outdated neoliberal ideal.
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Jan 29, 2012 05:30
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dusty posted:And you're taking an Anne Tolley shaped poo poo on NZ schools? ClubmanGT posted:Our education system needs to better resourced at almost every level. I'm arguing for better resourcing of the education system. You seem to think I'm talking about reverting to Thatcherism. You can keep the whole  thing going as long as you want, but this is boring.
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Jan 29, 2012 05:32
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ClubmanGT posted:I'm arguing for better resourcing of the education system. You seem to think I'm talking about reverting to Thatcherism. You can keep the whole No, I quoted your post and engaged your "point" about school leavers' literacy. If this isn't what you think D&D is for then I'm not sure why you started a thread here, let alone why you made the post that I quoted.
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Jan 29, 2012 05:47
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LCQC posted:What the hell are you guys talking about education for, when
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Jan 29, 2012 06:03
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dusty posted:No, I quoted your post and engaged your "point" about school leavers' literacy. If this isn't what you think D&D is for then I'm not sure why you started a thread here, let alone why you made the post that I quoted. You left out "constantly attempting to pin rightist beliefs on me", given your references to "right wing talking points" and "Taking an Anne Tolley sized poo poo on our schools". I don't get how if the literacy problems in this country are even worse than I understood them to be that my "Let's better fund our education system" warrants that kind of smugness. The way you're responding makes it sound like I donned a Roger Douglas mask and shat in your Weetbix this morning. Not everyone who criticises the education system or its outcomes is arguing for it to be dismantled. There seems to be a trend in this thread where anyone who criticises anything gets told "But this report said it's the best in the world", like wanting even better outcomes is some sort of huge faux pas. It makes literally no sense. But keep talking down to me about the purpose of D&D or whatever.
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Jan 29, 2012 06:09
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ClubmanGT posted:
I'm trying to hold your criticism to account. The criticism you dropped was a shallow right wing talking point and ignored any context of the problem, let alone defined it; hence it is "talking point" as opposed to well reasoned argument. I've given you a bit to chew on with a couple of studies (IALS+PISA) and a link to a well researched lobby group. Go and do some readin'. I'd love to start engaging with informed criticism of our education system. I've pointed out that the NZ system is succeeding in spite of adversity, rather than failing despite it. But you don't want to talk about your argument, because you realise you have someone here who might be interested in what you're trying to say. Heaven forbid that you be expected to know what you're talking about, you'd rather just investigate the nestled folds of your large intestine to see what nuggets of wisdom you've secreted. TLDR/ Dropping a criticism and then not backing it up is the definition of making GBS threads then running.
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Jan 29, 2012 07:42
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It really was a pretty simple point. The NZ education system produces a significant number of graduates with poor literacy skills, thus the NZ education system needs to be improved. The percentage of illiterates produced by other countries has nothing to do with it.
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Jan 29, 2012 08:15
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open24hours posted:It really was a pretty simple point. This is as facile as pointing out that sick people will die in hospitals ergo our hospitals need to be improved. The "simple point" is actually rather a complex point. The "significant number" of graduates with low literacy is actually much lower than one would expect looking at the desultory inputs: teacher remuneration/training, school funding, child wellbeing et al. quote:The percentage of illiterates produced by other countries has nothing to do with it. What on earth could international comparison show us? It shows us how well our system works. Perfect education of every human being isn't an option; we need to know what outcomes a "good" school system generates. I've been showing how international evidence suggests that our schools are actually close to world's best despite being funded on the smell of an oily rag, and dealing with the long malingering tail. On the other hand you may have a gut feeling you'd like to share? dusty fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 09:15
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open24hours posted:It really was a pretty simple point. How do we know that its even possible to do better through the education system? Perhaps 14% of people just don't give a poo poo about literacy, and if they are happy then so am I. Maybe, like NZ's supposed "drinking problem", its not a problem. Of course, the reason why they don't care might be tragic - then I guess it IS a problem. The reason could be as simple as poverty - they may not be eating a diet that lets you learn well. Maybe the answer to higher literacy rates is cheaper food, more money for beneficiaries and education about how to eat. I am not adverse to throwing money at a problem, but I'd rather throw it at a problem we know exists. The percentage of illiterates produced by other countries has IS important here. The fact that we are not out of the ordinary on world literacy standards suggests that perhaps its not our unique set of problems causing this issue. Then again, it could be 30 factors involved in poor literacy, and each of our peer countries have a unique set of 10.
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Jan 29, 2012 09:20
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Speaking to more knowledgeable people in the area, many mentioned that English is an unpleasant bastard of a language to learn. Plus the fact that the English speaking world tends to shun learning a second language which aids literacy in a first langauge. I've tried Google scholar, but nothing is coming up. Maybe it's a lie us white people tell ourselves to make us feel good about not learning Maori or Chinese or whatever. For anyone not completely disinterested The Finland Phenomenon is worth for an introduction to the best school system in the world. No testing. Short school days. The reason I bring it up is that all the kids (12-17yr olds) in the film are interviewed in English (3rd language gawd drat). What the film reinforces is that the success of the system is built upon a highly skilled and professional workforce. Teacher development is very well funded and supported, with mentoring structured into career advancement. This is worrying because the average age in the NZ staffroom is getting into the fifties (iirc), and we import too many low quality migrant teachers. dusty fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 09:48
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dusty posted:This is worrying because the average age in the NZ staffroom is getting into the fifties (iirc), and we import too many low quality migrant teachers. There are also other issues - there's no incentive for people to make the switch to teaching since they're taking a significant pay cut when considering the actual hours worked, which can often end up as 12-hour days. You then get treated like poo poo by a minister who probably doesn't even know what the gently caress a curriculum is, the Teachers Council which doesn't even have a single teacher on it that seems to be designed to gouge money out of you on a regular basis and those ERO cunts that show up once in a while to breathe down your neck. That's not to mention the parents who get mad at you because their fucktard brat got a N/A for not doing any of their homework and handing in a piece of poo poo internal assessment they had 3 weeks to work on that they clearly threw together 10 minutes before it was due to be handed in and the people who don't know what they're talking about, who clearly reckon they're educational experts because they walked by a school once telling you what's what about teaching. poo poo man, applying for provisional registration costs a newly qualified teacher slightly more than $200, which they would obviously have lying around because if there's one thing students are known for, it's being rich. Applying for full registration costs around $70. How the gently caress does that even make sense? So why wouldn't a young teacher say "gently caress this noise" and jump on the first plane to Australia or Canada? At least they don't get mistreated to the extent that they do in New Zealand. Also in regards to the migrant teachers: there's an inconsistency from the TC about that. One of my classmates at uni was a South African art teacher who had taught full time in a Pretoria high school for well over a decade with a full teaching qualification from that country. When she moved over here, she was told she had to get a qualification from a tertiary institution over here as well, meaning she had to go through stuff she'd already done once and the decade+ of actual teaching experience apparently didn't mean poo poo. She did say it was good to get up to speed with some new educational theory, but gently caress me, it must have been aggravating for her. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 10:14
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Vagabundo posted:There are also other issues - there's no incentive for people to make the switch to teaching since they're taking a significant pay cut when considering the actual hours worked, which can often end up as 12-hour days. You then get treated like poo poo by a minister who probably doesn't even know what the gently caress a curriculum is, the Teachers Council which doesn't even have a single teacher on it that seems to be designed to gouge money out of you on a regular basis and those ERO cunts that show up once in a while to breathe down your neck. That's not to mention the parents who get mad at you because their fucktard brat got a N/A for not doing any of their homework and handing in a piece of poo poo internal assessment they had 3 weeks to work on that they clearly threw together 10 minutes before it was due to be handed in and the people who don't know what they're talking about, who clearly reckon they're educational experts because they walked by a school once. You really think ERO shouldn't exist? Being a teacher is a lot more difficult than people give credit for, and there's lots of bits that are tough, but I'm not sure I'd call an ERO review 'mistreatment'. I know a whole bunch of teachers who really enjoy their jobs. miss_chaos fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 10:20
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miss_chaos posted:You really think ERO shouldn't exist? Tell me where I said ERO is unnecessary.
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Jan 29, 2012 10:21
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Vagabundo posted:Tell me where I said ERO is unnecessary. Apologies, I infered from... Vagabundo posted:There are also other issues - there's no incentive for people to make the switch to teaching since they're taking a significant pay cut when considering the actual hours worked, which can often end up as 12-hour days. You then get treated like poo poo by a minister who probably doesn't even know what the gently caress a curriculum is, the Teachers Council which doesn't even have a single teacher on it that seems to be designed to gouge money out of you on a regular basis and those ERO cunts that show up once in a while to breathe down your neck. ... that you thought ERO was a bad thing since they are cunts breathing down the neck of teachers. Apologies for inferring you may think a better option exists. Edit: argh tags
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Jan 29, 2012 10:26
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Does having a minister who is a former teacher really make much of a difference? A lot has been said about Anne Tolley, but Trevor Mallard was a former teacher and he was universally despised as well. Seems like a millstone around the neck of anyone who gets it.
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Jan 29, 2012 10:29
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dusty posted:Speaking to more knowledgeable people in the area, many mentioned that English is an unpleasant bastard of a language to learn. Plus the fact that the English speaking world tends to shun learning a second language which aids literacy in a first langauge.
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Jan 29, 2012 10:38
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dusty posted:I've been showing how international evidence suggests that our schools are actually close to world's best Being close to the world's best means nothing if schools are still producing graduates that are illiterate. If a school can produce a graduate that is illiterate and be considered to be among the world's best then being among the world's best can't be anything to be proud of. open24hours fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 10:41
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dusty posted:I've given you a bit to chew on with a couple of studies (IALS+PISA) and a link to a well researched lobby group. Go and do some readin'. I'd love to start engaging with informed criticism of our education system. I've pointed out that the NZ system is succeeding in spite of adversity, rather than failing despite it. dusty posted:The point being however, that this isn't exceptional. You've failed to understand the context of the problem, and are freaking out about outcomes wihtout understanding what you're looking at. Here is my argument: The education system needs to be better funded. Criticism that a system still produces bad outcomes for some students isn't automatically an attack on the people who work within it, nor the viability of the system itself. It's a pretty vital part of any evaluation system. Schools can't help students with more intensive learning requirements without more resources? Give them to them. dusty posted:Heaven forbid that you be expected to know what you're talking about, you'd rather just investigate the nestled folds of your large intestine to see what nuggets of wisdom you've secreted. Again, I think this kind of immature attack dog stuff would have been legitimate if I'd been making the point that teachers suck or shouldn't be paid more. I'm not. NZQA stats tell me that a little over 10% of kids leave secondary school without NCEA Level One literacy requirements. You say this is quite good, relative to overseas system and our level of funding. All I'm saying is that we should improve that level of funding, so that the education system isn't producing outcomes in spite of itself. We're basically on the same page here, but please take my 'the number of illiterate school leavers' talking point as one that is in favour of better resources for schools, not 'teachers/educators are poo poo and should be sacked/paid less', okay?
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Jan 29, 2012 10:47
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Vagabundo posted:There are also other issues - there's no incentive for people to make the switch to teaching since they're taking a significant pay cut when considering the actual hours worked, which can often end up as 12-hour days. You then get treated like poo poo by a minister who probably doesn't even know what the gently caress a curriculum is, the Teachers Council which doesn't even have a single teacher on it that seems to be designed to gouge money out of you on a regular basis and those ERO cunts that show up once in a while to breathe down your neck. That's not to mention the parents who get mad at you because their fucktard brat got a N/A for not doing any of their homework and handing in a piece of poo poo internal assessment they had 3 weeks to work on that they clearly threw together 10 minutes before it was due to be handed in and the people who don't know what they're talking about, who clearly reckon they're educational experts because they walked by a school once telling you what's what about teaching. Don't forget that ontop of all of this they have half the country and all of the media calling them lazy pieces of poo poo who just sit on their rear end all day, spend half the year on holiday and are only in it for the money and actually hate students. "You see back in my day teachers actually cared about their jobs!" 
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Jan 29, 2012 11:00
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Teachers get loving awesome holidays, though.
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Jan 29, 2012 11:16
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open24hours posted:Being close to the world's best means nothing if schools are still producing graduates that are illiterate. If a school can produce a graduate that is illiterate and be considered to be among the world's best then being among the world's best can't be anything to be proud of. You are being irrational. You realise that in your idealised education system nooone is bad at maths? Do you think this is possible? Some people never learn to read. Some people never learn to talk. All we can ask society to do is make as much lemonade as possible with the lemons we give it.
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Jan 29, 2012 11:20
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fong posted:Teachers get loving awesome holidays, though. Yeah but they also do a poo poo load of work over those holidays. They aren't exactly relaxing on the gold coast for months at a time like some people would have you believe.
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Jan 29, 2012 11:26
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Law posted:Don't forget that ontop of all of this they have half the country and all of the media calling them lazy pieces of poo poo who just sit on their rear end all day, spend half the year on holiday and are only in it for the money and actually hate students. I've only been teaching a year, and already I'm tired of arguing about this with people. Often I meet people, and as soon as they hear I'm a teacher they bust out these remarks. Now I just phase out and add them to my mental list of assholes.
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Jan 29, 2012 11:27
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fong posted:Teachers get loving awesome holidays, though. Most of which is eaten up by work. There's also regularly 7 day weeks of work, seeing as how teachers are usually expected to be involved with extra-curricular activities. The Hamster Man posted:I've only been teaching a year, and already I'm tired of arguing about this with people. Often I meet people, and as soon as they hear I'm a teacher they bust out these remarks. Now I just phase out and add them to my mental list of assholes. Don't you realise that they are already experts on educational theory? They went to school, you know!
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Jan 29, 2012 11:30
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