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I've chopped down your post to the nub I think:ClubmanGT posted:NZQA stats tell me that a little over 10% of kids leave secondary school without NCEA Level One literacy requirements. You say this is quite good, relative to overseas system and our level of funding. All I'm saying is that we should improve that level of funding, so that the education system isn't producing outcomes in spite of itself. NCEA is the wrong tool to look at here. By it's very nature (a certificate of achievement) it will discriminates against non-achievers. To a degree the number of people who fail to attain it is merely reflective of where the level of achievement that is set in a particular year. What does a certificate of achievement in literacy/coomunications stand for if every kid can achieve it? Nada. Which is why NCEA was so vehemently opposed upon introduction as it was thought it might be a certificate for showing up and eating lunch. Hearing complaints about non-achievement a few years down the track is quite ironic. Personally, I'm dubious about looking towards NCEA for any meaningful understanding of population performance, especially literacy. It simply is the wrong tool. Forinstance how to reconcile the NCEA non-achievement rate with the UNDP who recognises NZ as 99% literate? You can't so don't try. Just smile - that 99% literate is a good rule of thumb. "Most people can read, right?" No. The longer answer is... longer. Literacy is a nuanced subject. It used to be readin' n' writin', but has now expanded to encompass a wider group of communicative skills - listening, speaking, problem solving, numeracy, computer literacy (god help me). Plus, the demands society places on people are exponentially higher than in the past. 50 years ago only the stupidest people could get a job digging ditches using a spade; today a ditch digger will have a heavy machinery licence and use GPS to get precise coordinates. Pre-WWII 60% of the school kids left after primary, nowadays only a handful get out before they are 16. So we're wanting exponentially more kids skilled up on exponentially more complex forms on literacy. I'm sure we'll do fine. So taking this more advanced view of literacy, how do we do? More precise measurements show us as being around 43% of 16-65 year olds with "poor" literacy. This is a big bad figure, yes. But it isn't exceptional. This is an outcome that the entire English speaking world shares. My problem with your original post is that it dovetailed with a lot of bluster like this: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3922718/Minister-blasts-poor-Kiwi-literacy-rates Steven Joyce posted:More than a million New Zealand adults are being held back because they lack essential literacy and numeracy skills, the tertiary education minister says. And here's what really pisses me off. Steven Joyce is the same minister who reduced funding for literacy amongst adults - around a 25% cut IIRC over 4 years, and this in a sector that is hugely oversubscribed, and run on the goodwill of a volunteer workforce. What a sociopathic chunt. Yet these bad sounding statistics are used over and over to show how our school system is in crisis, and the only thing that can save it are National Standards and Charter Schools. I just really dispise the National Party vision of education, there simply isn't any understanding there. They scrapped the funding for Gifted and Talented - there is no additional funding in place for assisting chidren at the top of the curve anymore. Sorry if I went in a bit hard on you, but know I burn with righteous anger.  For the Goons in here I've had a very satisfactory off-the-record gripe session with the a CEO of a major NZ tertiary organisation. In his opinion "Tolley is a loving numpty" who doesn't understand the first thing about literacy. Ahhh, it feels so good to write that down. NationalPartyBrighterFuture.txt dusty fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 12:21
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miss_chaos posted:Does having a minister who is a former teacher really make much of a difference? A lot has been said about Anne Tolley, but Trevor Mallard was a former teacher and he was universally despised as well. Seems like a millstone around the neck of anyone who gets it. I think the issue with Mallard is that he comes accross as an abrasive prick, where as Tolley seems to be offensivly incompetent. Somewhat tangentially, I saw this article which is from the US but touches on a similar theme we see running through here: http://m.examiner.com/k-12-in-topeka/in-what-other-profession Varkk fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 20:11
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dusty posted:You are being irrational. You realise that in your idealised education system nooone is bad at maths? Do you think this is possible? I don't think having everyone who finishes school being able to read and write is some sort of lofty, unreachable goal.
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Jan 29, 2012 21:12
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open24hours posted:I don't think having everyone who finishes school being able to read and write is some sort of lofty, unreachable goal. It's like you didn't read the response where it was explained that literacy isn't as simple as reading and writing.
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Jan 29, 2012 22:53
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open24hours posted:I don't think having everyone who finishes school being able to read and write is some sort of lofty, unreachable goal. Can you please give some insight as to what informs your post? Or are you, you know, talking out of your illinformed arse? dusty fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jan 29, 2012 |
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Jan 29, 2012 22:58
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If it makes you feel better (it won't), you can get NCEA Level 1 'Literacy' by literally handing in a 200 word essay as many times as you like until I got mine like that 
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Jan 30, 2012 00:32
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dusty posted:Please enlighten me. I've shown how the status quo is entrenched, and given some demonstration as to at the scale of the problem. It is the definition of lofty and unreachable. Reading comprehension fail? Ok, fine, but you haven't shown why this must always remain the case. Why accept the current state of affairs as being the 'best we can do'? Are you trying to say that people should consider themselves lucky to be educated by a system that fails so many because hey, at least they aren't going to school in Detroit, and it's almost as good as Finland! [edit: I'm not sure why you're so intent on calling everyone ill informed. The only claim I've made is that the NZ education system lets down a lot of people and a lot of New Zealanders find that to be an unacceptable state of affairs.] open24hours fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jan 30, 2012 |
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Jan 30, 2012 07:02
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open24hours posted:Ok, fine, but you haven't shown why this must always remain the case. Well you can hardly fix the illiterate people who already are out of school by fixing the schools. They're going to be illiterate for life, aside from a few you may convince to return to school, so even with perfect schools you'd need to wait decades for the illiterate ones to die off. It's a problem that necessarily takes almost a century to resolve.
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Jan 30, 2012 07:12
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Fair enough, but you can do something about the current crop of students. If over ten percent of them can't even manage to type out a 200 word essay with unlimited attempts then it's a sorry state of affairs.
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Jan 30, 2012 07:25
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open24hours posted:Fair enough, but you can do something about the current crop of students. If over ten percent of them can't even manage to type out a 200 word essay with unlimited attempts then it's a sorry state of affairs. I agree completely that we should have a focus on improving learning. However students don't get 'unlimited' attempts - they get one attempt, then if they don't achieve they may resubmit or resit. Any school letting students try, try and try again are not following procedure at all.
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Jan 30, 2012 08:53
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open24hours posted:Fair enough, but you can do something about the current crop of students. If over ten percent of them can't even manage to type out a 200 word essay with unlimited attempts then it's a sorry state of affairs. I think in a lot of cases it is not so much a lack of ability but a lack of motivation and a perceived lack of value in education/learning. This is not an issue you can fix within the school system as it comes from the home and the community at large.
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Jan 30, 2012 11:17
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An great piece from Jane Clifton in The Listener, the most interesting piece of which is this.... http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/politics/talking-about-a-resolution/ Jane Clifton posted:Never think the expression “There is nothing so ex as an ex-politician” does not apply to you: This is not just a truism for the obvious tragically unrisen soufflé, Don Brash. Helen Clark, not content with running a slice of the universe from New York, acted as adviser to Cunliffe during the recent leadership auction. Was this public? I had no idea. There had always been the whole "Helen Clark sticking her break in from NY" from the right wing memesphere but I didn't expect it to actually be true. miss_chaos fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Jan 30, 2012 |
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Jan 30, 2012 11:33
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open24hours posted:Fair enough, but you can do something about the current crop of students. If over ten percent of them can't even manage to type out a 200 word essay with unlimited attempts then it's a sorry state of affairs. It can also be indicative of deeper problems. A child who is abused on the weekend might not have their mind on learning during the week, poor housing and associated illnesses blah blah... In other words nothing that couldn't be fixed by a hearty dose of boostraps served up at the nearest Charter School.
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Jan 30, 2012 11:47
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dusty posted:It can also be indicative of deeper problems. A child who is abused on the weekend might not have their mind on learning during the week, poor housing and associated illnesses blah blah... Boostraps sound like a punishment from a Doctor Seuss book.
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Jan 30, 2012 11:50
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dusty posted:It can also be indicative of deeper problems. A child who is abused on the weekend might not have their mind on learning during the week, poor housing and associated illnesses blah blah... This is just passing the buck. If New Zealand can't make do with an approach targeted solely at education then they need to try a more inclusive strategy that takes a students home life into account. What incentive do you have to defend the NZ education system anyway?
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Jan 30, 2012 12:10
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open24hours posted:This is just passing the buck. If New Zealand can't make do with an approach targeted solely at education then they need to try a more inclusive strategy that takes a students home life into account. Well no poo poo, of course education can't fix it. But hey, we love locking up prisoners so much we don't properly fund the schools that breed them. There's a lot of frustration in childhood sectors that good evidence based programs have been ignored as they they are expensive. I'm interested in how Whanau Ora pans out - I'm cynical, but open minded.
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Jan 30, 2012 12:42
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So the asset sales may not be as straight forward as John Key had hoped and the Maori Party may potentially block it in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi, which is possible thanks to the SOE Act of 1986. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10782277
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Jan 30, 2012 19:13
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Vagabundo posted:So the asset sales may not be as straight forward as John Key had hoped and the Maori Party may potentially block it in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi, which is possible thanks to the SOE Act of 1986. There's no way National will by stymied here. Asset sales has turned out to the biggest policy message that National has. "Yes we'll sell the assets; but this time it's only a bit, we'll do it smartly, we'll sell to NZers". If you drill down I reckon the vibe in the electorate is that they're barely OK with assett sales cause JK will get us a good deal like he did on the crown limos. How impotent would JK look if his big ticket item gets stuffed by the House? It aint going to happen. Key has a lot of incentive to get the Maori Party on board then, and remember the Maori Party are all but retired and out of wind. On the way out the door the only thing they can really achieve is to scoop as much action as possible towards the big tribal-corps. They'll use words and language of the protest movement, but will vote noliberal as they see it as an opportunity to drive money towards Maori interests. Whanau Ora is an example of using a social program to inject a lot of money into Maori businesses - it also fits perfectly with the private provider model that the Right would like to expand. There's a lot of synchronicity there. Auntie Tariana would love to see her legacy as a flourishing Maori economy, and it might be easier to pump some money around to key Maori players than to try and lift Maori kids out of poverty. IMHO the MP can only posture - once there is enough honey in the sweetheart deal the tribal corps be will be offered, they'll find it in their hearts to compromise. It's not like we're flogging off the North Island forests, we're supposed to be selling a short list of assets - any potential treaty claims involving those should be able to fit on a shortlist as well, which might not turn out to be that big a deal: maybe rivers or land? Treaty Clauses are viewed as some sort of metastised cancer which might spread if not cut out, Tony Ryall wont wanna let the big policy prize get infected. Here's what I came here to post - last time a Dunedin school lost this many kids it involved a shooting. Is anyone more familiar with this? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10782362 quote:Rotary Park School in Dunedin began its 2012 year with 13 pupils yesterday, down about 80 per cent from the 66 enrolled at the end of last year. dusty fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 00:30
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dusty posted:There's no way National will by stymied here. Asset sales has turned out to the biggest policy message that National has. "Yes we'll sell the assets; but this time it's only a bit, we'll do it smartly, we'll sell to NZers". If you drill down I reckon the vibe in the electorate is that they're barely OK with assett sales cause JK will get us a good deal like he did on the crown limos. Here's the thing - the next Parliament session is on the 7th and the nationwide begging sessions tour doesn't begin until after that. So now Key has to go into parliament with even more against him. I'll bet you someone from opposition is going to bring this up and say something along the lines of "Promising to sell of assets are we? You didn't even bother to check the legality of it, you wally!"
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Jan 31, 2012 01:25
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Vagabundo posted:I'll bet you someone from opposition is going to bring this up and say something along the lines of "Promising to sell of assets are we? You didn't even bother to check the legality of it, you wally!"  Key won the battle of ideas. Labour found out how unpopular it was, but still couldn't get laid. They just didn't have anything meaninful to add after JK's "we'll sell em off and it'll be fine" assurances. "B...B...B... but it's an asset sale and you'll be screwed on power prices by a private company rather than a government one!" I'd love to be proven wrong but I predict the assett sale will go smoothly. JKs a very well prepared politician - he didn't expect Winston, but he'll have prepared some strategies in case Phil Goff got a bump from a rugby world cup loss for example. edit - This just in lol "Maori Party may quit Government" http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10782403 Dig through the the article and you get a hint of what the solution will be. NZHerald posted:Ms Turia said today that the issue was similar to the foreshore and seabed issue for Maori. I too recall the "glorious victory" the Maori Party claimed over the seabed issue. They rolled over and gave up on everything but the most flimsy tokenistic points. Note how the article doesn't mention if they have any issues beyond consultation, seems like they're A-OK with selling stuff off providing the right boxes get ticked. dusty fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 01:48
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dusty posted:Followed by a standing ovation from Labour caucus and a high five with Chris Hipkins. Seeing as how Labour is still hammering on that point and Mana have also brought it up (I think the Greens as well) on their Facebook news feed, you don't think any of them would challenge Key on this? It can easily be framed as "Key pushing a policy without thinking too hard about it," much like how suddenly we probably won't be back in surplus in 2014~15 because Key apparently just noticed what's happening in the EU zone is being framed. dusty posted:edit - On one hand, the Maori Party were piss-weak in the last election, but considering the slim majority between the National-Maori-Act coalition and the fact that the perception that they were Key's lapdogs last time round cost them a significant number of votes in 2011, plus their prior history when it comes to disagreeing with the ruling party (Turia crossing the floor when the Foreshore and Seabed bill was first passed) means I'm willing to wait and see how this turns out. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 03:08
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Vagabundo posted:It can easily be framed as "Key pushing a policy without thinking too hard about it," much like how suddenly we probably won't be back in surplus in 2014~15 because Key apparently just noticed what's happening in the EU zone is being framed. National's strategy is to fight for those swinging low-info voters. Lots of their work fits this template - Tony Ryall manages the health syste around two indicators: waiting lists for voluntary surgery and emergency waiting times. See what I mean?. Every time he opens his mouth he'll mention those two things and how they are improving. Our health system is much more than these two indicators. He's made big cuts in the mental health sector and primary health to free up money to persue those two indicators. He's totally ontop of his game and this is how he makes sure that the news coming out of the health sector is good news for the government.The CTU has calculated that the Health system has been getting funded below the rate of health-inflation, so some areas have faced real cuts leading to worsening outcomes. Credit to Ryall, he's a loving master. As to what this means for EU et al. I really don't know. Bill English has pointedly said he'll be persuing big cuts this term, and we'll need them to to get back in the black without any new badnews from the EU. Re Mana- I really like Hone. The more he talks about stuff the smarter he seems. He's grown an awful lot in the last 3 years. I've saved some of the pre-election Mana Party advertising because Hone comes across as some sort of wise benevolent philospher-king. dusty fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 05:02
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Not sure why the Maori Party would posture about leaving the government when they don't have to vote with the government on asset sales, and leaving confidence and supply doesn't actually affect anything as the government still has the numbers. So, just posturing. It doesn't really affect anything. I'm pretty sure they've threatened to do this before as well. They'll stay because a) they couldn't really care less when Ngai Tahu sells Maori assets to foreigners and b) the alternative is hanging with Hone and Winston.
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Jan 31, 2012 11:36
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In all likelihood, National will probably try to ram through a change in the SOE act, which is what they are angling for, by misusing urgency again. Also dusty, you said Key is a very well-prepared politician - that may be so in other cases but with this one, if he had prepared properly in the first place, maybe he wouldn't be in this current situation in regards to the asset sales. The fact that this happened, and that the Maori Party has found itself in a position that it has to stand up to the National Party or risk complete annihilation in its own constituency, has been a pretty big gently caress-up on the part of Key. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Feb 1, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 19:23
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Quick Update: Key still alive, still being a oval office.
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Feb 1, 2012 00:26
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Speaking of Key being a oval office, I agree with Nicky Hagar in that we're probably already well passed the high watermark for Key's popularity and we're probably starting to see the cracks.
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Feb 1, 2012 01:16
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Vagabundo posted:Speaking of Key being a oval office, I agree with Nicky Hagar in that we're probably already well passed the high watermark for Key's popularity and we're probably starting to see the cracks. All I can say is about loving time.
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Feb 1, 2012 01:37
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Why was he ever popular. He doesn't seem like the kind of person New Zealanders would identify with, he's like a mix of Mitt Romney's out of touchness and David Cameron's smarmy uperclassery.
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Feb 1, 2012 01:51
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NITOS FLAME KEEPER posted:Why was he ever popular. He doesn't seem like the kind of person New Zealanders would identify with, he's like a mix of Mitt Romney's out of touchness and David Cameron's smarmy uperclassery. Labour started to disconnect with people in a big way some time around 2004. They got stale, the same faces were sticking around and by 2007, they felt like a ruling aristocracy. That plus favourable coverage in the media that had stories ranging from "John Key  " to outright silence in regards to controversial or questionable (to put it charitably) legislation between then and 2011. Considering how National Party member Stephen McElrea at the NZ on Air board kicking up a fuss over the child poverty doco last year only just recently became news, I wonder what other stuff he was able to squash before it got aired.
edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Feb 1, 2012 |
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Feb 1, 2012 02:04
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NITOS FLAME KEEPER posted:Quick Update: drat. Well wake me up next year.
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Feb 1, 2012 02:09
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I just got in from the protest here in Chch. I haven't protested in about 15 years but this seemed like a really good cause and bringing democracy back to Chch at this pivotal time is really important in my opinion. Bob Parker and Tony Marryatt need to go asap, they've been running slipshod over democracy for far too long and then helping their rich mates get richer in the mean time. Hopefully cooler heads, like Cr. Yani Johanson can prevail and bring some semblance of democracy back to our ruined city. In terms of a progress report, someone earlier in the thread expressed and interest, demolition has begun in the "Red zone" (Land that will not be rebuilt) with 11 houses being demolished this week, leaving only about 5000. Oh and I read there was a new building being built in the CBD. This is going to take a decade or more at that rate; pretty ridiculous.
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Feb 1, 2012 02:21
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Vagabundo posted:Also dusty, you said Key is a very well-prepared politician - that may be so in other cases but with this one, if he had prepared properly in the first place, maybe he wouldn't be in this current situation in regards to the asset sales. The fact that this happened, and that the Maori Party has found itself in a position that it has to stand up to the National Party or risk complete annihilation in its own constituency, has been a pretty big gently caress-up on the part of Key. I can't figure out how the maths has changed. The Maori Party announced early how they'd be playing this and I can't see how their position has changed. Pita Sharples in late november. Pita posted:Co-leader of the Maori Party Pita Sharples has reiterated Maori Party policy on the proposed sale of asset sales. Everyone has known for the last 3 months the MP position, and they know they aren't needed for bill to pass. Maui St has better insights then me. He thinks this might be the MP resisting the quiet euthanasia it faces as part of a national coalition. This might be their last chance to go out and fight credibly for the Maori electorates - their compettion is to the left (Labour) or further left with a dose of tinorangatiratanga (Mana). The Maori Party know that keeping the status quo means smoothing the pillow for a dying [electoral] race. The last thing Turei and Sharples will want to do is give up the crown limos. This "bring down the gubmint" nonsense is the last vestigial twitch; a fart from deep inside the impacted bowels of the Maori Party which is the closest thing they have to a spine. dusty fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Feb 1, 2012 |
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Feb 1, 2012 04:35
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dusty posted:I can't figure out how the maths has changed. The Maori Party announced early how they'd be playing this and I can't see how their position has changed. I never said that the Maori Party has sprung this out of nowhere. I was well aware of their position and I'm sure I saw Tariana Turia say something like the quote you supplied during one of the minor party leader debates. I was questioning whether or not Key actually had properly prepared for this and the potential damage it can cause, however small it may be. I'd wager that our of this entire affair, this is what gets remembered, rather than the final outcome. And for all the preparedness, it appears Key (or his advisers) doesn't actually know what Article 9 is for. According to Andrew Geddis, the dead giveaway is about 1'20" in this clip, when Key says "I would point out that section 9 is largely symbolic. It's been the law since it was established in 1986, but the Government can't find an example of where it's been yeeeeewsed." (God, he makes my skin crawl whenever he opens his mouth.) edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Feb 1, 2012 |
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Feb 1, 2012 05:02
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Pararoid posted:I just got in from the protest here in Chch. I haven't protested in about 15 years but this seemed like a really good cause and bringing democracy back to Chch at this pivotal time is really important in my opinion. I went today, together with a bunch of other people from work. It was really great to see such a turnout! To be honest, I wasn't very hopeful about numbers - New Zealanders are apathetic as gently caress. It was also great to speak to so many older people who were protesting for the first time. Knowing that so many people, many who would have been out of their comfort zone, felt angry enough to protest gave me a little bit of hope. 
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Feb 1, 2012 05:19
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The Hamster Man posted:I went today, together with a bunch of other people from work. It was really great to see such a turnout! To be honest, I wasn't very hopeful about numbers - New Zealanders are apathetic as gently caress. Yeah I felt the same way which is why I made a point of saying to everyone who asked that I was a first time protester. Protesters have had a bad rap recently as we've seen in this very thread but this is rather a lot more focused.
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Feb 1, 2012 05:24
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Good to know that all it takes to shake (har har) the average urban Kiwi out of apathy is a major natural disaster, almost 12 months of ineffective, shoddy governance at all levels and deconstruction/reconstruction work moving at a glacial pace.
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Feb 1, 2012 05:27
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Sorry for the double post, but something interesting just came up on Tumeke.Bomber posted:Government to gut Ministry of Maori Development http://tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/government-to-gut-ministry-of-maori.html This is a real "watch this space" story and if this turns out to be true, it could potentially make the Maori Party to bite the bullet and walk in order to survive. Edit: TVNZ leading with the story on One News right now. Edit II: and here's the first article I've found. None of the major papers I've checked (Herald, Press, Dom Post, ODT, Waikato Times) have any stories on it online, but we'll probably see something tomorrow morning. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Feb 1, 2012 |
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Feb 1, 2012 05:42
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Just saw myself on One News since you mention it 
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Feb 1, 2012 06:31
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Well, the Maori Party have to walk away from the coalition now. If they don't, they've all but guaranteed Mana and Labour will be enjoying the seats they pick up from this in a few years. They simply don't have any other option at this point. They can still salvage something, even if it's tiny, out of this. Edit: Oh wait, never mind. quote:The Maori Party is making conciliatory noises over the Government's latest moves to consult iwi over how the Crown should recognise Treaty obligations when the state-owned power companies are put up for partial sale. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6345296/Govt-releases-asset-sale-discussion-paper Maori Party will be dead in 2014. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Feb 1, 2012 |
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Feb 1, 2012 07:15
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Vagabundo posted:I never said that the Maori Party has sprung this out of nowhere. I was well aware of their position and I'm sure I saw Tariana Turia say something like the quote you supplied during one of the minor party leader debates. I was questioning whether or not Key actually had properly prepared for this and the potential damage it can cause, however small it may be. I'd wager that our of this entire affair, this is what gets remembered, rather than the final outcome. drat good point. John Key was able to stich that coalition deal together with the same amount of effort he reserves for his morning piss. I wonder what the link to TPK is? Seems very last minute.
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Feb 1, 2012 10:33
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