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Bacteriophage
May 2, 2005
CELLUAR LYSIS!

Instant Jellyfish posted:

Its a traditional Chinese medicine thing. Patricia McConnell believes in it but there is really no actual science behind it.

Hah she did mention being a big follower of hers. Thanks for the advice everyone, I'll talk it over with my boyfriend and see how crazy we want to get about this. Does anyone have any good book/video (watching that video ButWhatIf thanks!) recommendations for treating dog aggression aside from what's listed in the OP (we're picking up Fight!)? He's starting to turn into an unruly teenager and we're trying to snap him out of it.

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Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



ButWhatIf posted:

To be fair, there is definitely scientific backing to the idea that high protein in a diet can exacerbate aggression (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10953712), but calling it stuff like "hot" and "cool" reminds me too much of Cesar's whole "red zone" nonsense.

I wouldn't say that study really proves anything about protein; the use of "dominance aggression" is vague and the study size is really too small for me to take too seriously. Also it seems more like its indicating tryptophan supplementation is more helpful than dietary changes to me. But I haven't read the whole article and could certainly be wrong about their findings.

Bacteriophage lately I've really been enjoying Grisha Stewart's BAT book. I'm hoping to start working on practicing this weekend.

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

ButWhatIf posted:

To be fair, there is definitely scientific backing to the idea that high protein in a diet can exacerbate aggression (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10953712), but calling it stuff like "hot" and "cool" reminds me too much of Cesar's whole "red zone" nonsense.

For the people who are dealing with reactivity issues, I found this great video through a classmate. It's a pretty beautiful session with a super-reactive brindle pit, and it goes so smoothly. The handler takes a little time to get proficient at timing payoffs, but that's something we all have to work on. I love the moment when the dog is starting to get it - you can almost see the lightbulb go on!

Sure, I can agree with that, but the protein source itself? I mean I guess if a dog were allergic they might act out out of discomfort, but that's different than "this food is hot" and "that food is cold" because some mystical energy alignment shows this.

Anyways, sorry, I know I probably come off really strongly about this stuff but I have to deal with it a lot and I'm very passionate about STEM education.

Gonktastic
Jan 18, 2007

I've had a lot of good luck with BAT so far, and I really look forward to continuing it. It's already helped me get Ephy to ignore bicycles and other pedestrians on walks.

My town is an extremely dog friendly place (Seriously, the most common bumper sticker here is "I like dogs and I vote") and I've had a very hard time finding a safe space where I can regulate distances from other dogs. Continual goals.

Kiri, thanks for the advice with my partner. He definitely did start out as a much more corrective owner than me- he's never had dogs before, so it's been a learning process. He's definitely made huge improvements over the last year and she's responded beautifully. Literally everyone else we know is extremely corrective, and it's amazing seeing people that can only be described as loving hippies trying to force their dogs into submission. :psyduck:

-A fun note about my reactivity class: The first session we met in the trainer's basement. She talked to us for about 10 minutes about our outdoor classes that would take place, turned on a video about BAT, and left for two hours. :rolleyes: Apparently she's fantastic for agility though.

Deep Thoreau
Aug 16, 2008

I heard back from one of the trainers, and they recommended I look into this: http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/

For those who have experience training, have you heard of this? Is it worth it?


fake edit: Holy poo poo it's 4.5K dollars. I'll just keep on looking for something else.

I'm p.sure that stuff isn't worth 4.5k. :catstare:


edit: Vvv I've been out of work for quite a while. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't afford it. Gonna stick to my plan of volunteer work at a shelter.

Deep Thoreau fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Feb 3, 2012

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
My friend did her classes with Animal Behavior College, and it was around 3k, but according to her it wasn't worth it. I know the Karen Pryor school is something like 4k. So yeah, if you're going that route, it's not going to be terribly cheap.

ButWhatIf
Jun 24, 2009

HA HA HA

Skizzles posted:

My friend did her classes with Animal Behavior College, and it was around 3k, but according to her it wasn't worth it. I know the Karen Pryor school is something like 4k. So yeah, if you're going that route, it's not going to be terribly cheap.

Yeah, the SSCS was about $4k when you include the hands-on component (and you'd be insane not to). It's going to be around there if you go someplace legit.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

ButWhatIf posted:

For the people who are dealing with reactivity issues, I found this great video through a classmate. It's a pretty beautiful session with a super-reactive brindle pit, and it goes so smoothly. The handler takes a little time to get proficient at timing payoffs, but that's something we all have to work on. I love the moment when the dog is starting to get it - you can almost see the lightbulb go on!

Thanks for the video! I really enjoyed it and it made me think about my timing a lot. I'm going to pass it on to my trainer.

notsoape
Jul 19, 2009

WWDD?
So recently I've been introducing directional commands into Mouse's retrieve training, and I wonder if some of the training nerds in this thread would mind helping me out with a little experiment.

Background: The first session was indoors, with me and Mouse both sitting in the middle of a corridor, facing the wall. I had her wait while I threw two toys; one to the left and one to the right. I gestured to the left and gave Mouse the (completely new) command 'Away!'. She trotted over to the left and retrieved the toy. I then gestured to the right, and gave her the (again, new) command 'Get over!'. She trotted over and retrieved the toy on the right.

I was kind of astonished by the fact that she seemed to get the idea immediately. I mixed things up a lot, like throwing different numbers of toys left and right, sending her left multiple times and then throwing in a right. She didn't put a foot wrong. I was expecting this phase of training to last for a while, but in one day we were able to move from the corridor into a larger room, and from the larger room into the garden. I don't think she's distinguishing between the verbal commands yet, but she totally understands that me gesturing left means 'go get the thing on the left', and me gesturing right means 'go get the thing on the right'. Like I say, she got the idea on the first try - it seems totally intuitive to her.

What I don't know is whether Mouse is some kind of :stare: canine orienteering savant, or (more likely, I suspect) whether this is something that most dogs can pick up really easily. SO, I thought it might be interesting to do a little PI training thread experiment :3:.

Request: If you have a dog who knows how to retrieve, but who hasn't yet done any directional work, take them some place with plenty of room to your left and right. Have them wait while you throw one toy left (due West/9 o'Clock) and another right (Due East/3 o'Clock). Get down to their eye level, and point them in one direction or another with your regular 'retrieve' command. Does the dog go get the toy you're pointing to? Can you get them to go get the other one by pointing towards it too?

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

notsoape posted:

So recently I've been introducing directional commands into Mouse's retrieve training, and I wonder if some of the training nerds in this thread would mind helping me out with a little experiment.

Background: The first session was indoors, with me and Mouse both sitting in the middle of a corridor, facing the wall. I had her wait while I threw two toys; one to the left and one to the right. I gestured to the left and gave Mouse the (completely new) command 'Away!'. She trotted over to the left and retrieved the toy. I then gestured to the right, and gave her the (again, new) command 'Get over!'. She trotted over and retrieved the toy on the right.

I was kind of astonished by the fact that she seemed to get the idea immediately. I mixed things up a lot, like throwing different numbers of toys left and right, sending her left multiple times and then throwing in a right. She didn't put a foot wrong. I was expecting this phase of training to last for a while, but in one day we were able to move from the corridor into a larger room, and from the larger room into the garden. I don't think she's distinguishing between the verbal commands yet, but she totally understands that me gesturing left means 'go get the thing on the left', and me gesturing right means 'go get the thing on the right'. Like I say, she got the idea on the first try - it seems totally intuitive to her.

What I don't know is whether Mouse is some kind of :stare: canine orienteering savant, or (more likely, I suspect) whether this is something that most dogs can pick up really easily. SO, I thought it might be interesting to do a little PI training thread experiment :3:.

Request: If you have a dog who knows how to retrieve, but who hasn't yet done any directional work, take them some place with plenty of room to your left and right. Have them wait while you throw one toy left (due West/9 o'Clock) and another right (Due East/3 o'Clock). Get down to their eye level, and point them in one direction or another with your regular 'retrieve' command. Does the dog go get the toy you're pointing to? Can you get them to go get the other one by pointing towards it too?

I'm working on something like that with Cohen. It's a UD exercise where I need to send her out in between two jumps, call for her to sit, then direct her to take either one jump or the other. (Like in this video here. She picked up directed jumping ages ago. I just lift my arm perpendicular to my body on the side of the jump I want her to take and she'll take care of the rest. The tougher part is the send out. I don't think we get a box like in the video - so I'm just getting Cohen to run out to touch a fence on cue, then I'll call out the sit prior to her getting there in competition.

A while ago I tried to teach Cohen left/right with upside down cups with food underneath. She understood the gestures but the verbal never really sunk in. I'm very lazily trying again since I should really have solid directionals for agility. I'm working on putting a spin to the left/right on verbal, then I'll start extrapolating it to various equipment.

Cassiope
Jul 7, 2010

Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system.
Except for cats.
I just tried with Moxie, she seemed to get it but I didn't do a different verbal cue for right vs. left.
Just put her in a sit/stay and threw a toy left, then a toy right. Pointed to one and said "get it!", rewarded her for bringing it, then pointed to the "other" and said "get it!"

She did it three or four times in a row, I think dogs understand pointing pretty well.

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
What kind of bait bags does everybody use (if at all)? I recall someone highly recommending one, was it this one?

I'm looking to get a new one, because while I like my Biscuit Buddy for the most part, I don't like how easily it can be wrenched off my belt by an over-zealous dog, or how it can flop around if I use the clip.

The trainer I intern with just uses a little fanny pack, but I'd like something with a water-resistant lining because slimy hot dog pieces. :downs:

edit: also I would have participated in your experiment, notsoape, but Shadow doesn't have the slightest clue how to grab something with his mouth let alone retrieve it.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

My favourite bait pouch was the Olly Dog magnetic pouch. It was just so easy and comfortable to use. Unfortunately it wore out after about 6 months when one of the magnets worked its way through the lining. I would still definitely buy another.

I'm currently using the Premier Bait Pouch and I'm liking it quite a bit. The clasp is easy to use and it holds loads. Sometimes I forget to close it, then I'll knock it and Cohen gets a freebie or two when food falls out. I've had it for a month or so - the clasp is still in good condition, but one of the belt loops came unstitched. I resewed it by hand and haven't had a problem since.

Basically I need my pouch to close with a touch without me having to play around with drawstrings. I need a strap built in - no clasps for belts. I've come to terms with pouches not lasting forever with heavy use. I use all of mine multiple times a day, so they get worn quickly.

a life less fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Feb 5, 2012

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

I use this one. I love it, it's extra roomy so I usually put a lower value non-wet treat in the bottom and then you can either stick a different kind in the separate pocket inside or, since I got tired of washing the bags, I stick wet treats in a plastic baggie and just set it in there. There are two side pockets, perfect for clicker and roll of baggies, a back pocket that fits my wallet and phone, and it has a strong clip and loops for a belt. I always use the clip and it does fall off one of my jackets, but I think the jacket just has stupid pockets.

It also has a quick close magnet which works really great. I have had it for probably 6 months now and it looks good as new.

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.
If I use something other than my various pockets, it's one like this, which is basically the bottom part of your typical training vest. It's not high tech, but it does hold lots and lots of stuff. The back pocket probably fits lots of bite tugs and balls etc. For treats I've gotten some foil coffee bags, which I wash and cut to proper length. These work with various pockets as well as that training belt. I also have one of these and do use it on regular walks during the summer (there are no handy pockets in all my summer clothes).

Riiseli fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Feb 5, 2012

Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



I don't really care about closing mechanisms because Major doesn't sneak treats so I use a nail/tool bag like this one. Big pouch gets normal level treats/a squeaky ball if I'm working with toys, little pouch gets gross gooey high value treats, lickety stick/liquid treat tube gets stuck in one of the side pockets, clicker is on a retractable lanyard attached to the top. If I need to I can clip a spare leash or hang a muzzle off of the hammer rings. Its super heavy duty so I can just hose it out. If I really needed to keep it closed its easy enough to attach magnets to things. The dog specific treat bag was harder for me to get in and out of quickly, didn't hold as much, and the clip thing always fell off when I was running around doing crazy premack work so the toolbelt has worked out well for me.

tiddlez
Nov 25, 2006

Nice shirt, Gaywad.

Plus_Infinity posted:

I posted about this exact thing a few pages back and no one gave any info (except one Euro who doesn't crate at all) so hopefully you get some advice.

What time do you get up in the morning? We were letting our dog out of the crate at the same time (anywhere between 5:30 and 6:45, but usually around 6:30), then bringing him back inside and plopping him on the bed with us while we hit snooze until about 7:30. If we put him back in his crate after he went out, he couldn't settle down again, so we put him on the bed with us. Eventually I decided I'd rather just let him out of his crate at 7 and get up for good (and also we moved to a house where it didn't matter to neighbors if he barked, which is why we started letting him out so early in the first place), but he'd bark like mad between the time he woke up and 7am. We've been trying a bunch of different things and what seems to have worked for us (for the past few days at least, hopefully it sticks) is to put a blanket over his crate AND put his dog bed inside his crate. he had some blankets in there but the bed seems to keep him comfy enough to stay quiet until 7am.

Sorry I took so long to reply to this.

Things have gotten worse and Campbell is now waking up at THREE THIRTY AM. I am beginning to look like a constant zombie.

If I take him out at three thirty, he can't settle back into his crate, even if its covered, his bed is in there, he has toys in there, the windows are covered, nothing. If I take him upstairs he will go back to sleep, however this isn't a viable option as if someone else is going to be watching him for us they won't be able to do this? So i need him to be able to sleep on his own if you know what I mean!

He goes in there quite happily at bed time so it's not as if he doesn't like it in there?

The problem i think is that he is falling asleep way too early at night, like i'm talking 7/8pm on the living room couch or floor, and then going out for a pee before bed at half 9/10pm. So he is basically sleeping for the whole evening, and now waking up at 3:30am.

What kind of things can I do to keep him awake longer in the evening? I'd been taking him out a long walk around tea time, so i'm thinking i may skip this and do it at like 9:30pm, and hopefully that will tire him out later instead of earlier? But I think he will go to sleep before 9:30, and thus perpetuate this vicious cycle.

I am beginning to start to lose hope.

(edit for spelling!)

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.

tiddlez posted:

If I take him out at three thirty, he can't settle back into his crate, even if its covered, his bed is in there, he has toys in there, the windows are covered, nothing. If I take him upstairs he will go back to sleep, however this isn't a viable option as if someone else is going to be watching him for us they won't be able to do this? So i need him to be able to sleep on his own if you know what I mean!

He goes in there quite happily at bed time so it's not as if he doesn't like it in there?
How long have you ignored him, when he's trying to settle down? What wouldn't somebody be able to do?

Does he go in fine after you take him out during the night?

Will he sleep upstairs even, if he's in a crate?

tiddlez
Nov 25, 2006

Nice shirt, Gaywad.
For example, this morning I took him out at three thirty and he did his business, and I put him straight back into his crate afterwards, and he cried and howled until I finally got up again and 5:40am and tried taking him out again, but he didn't need any toilets. And after that I stayed up because I would be getting up in an hour anyway for work.

I take him out before I go to bed, and he will go into the crate quite happily and settle down. It's only when he wakes up and gets out that he then won't go back in quietly. I've not tried taking his crate upstairs yet, but would you suggest that? I have a plastic travel crate I could try setting up in the bedroom?

Edit: Sorry, forgot to answer about what someone couldn't do. My dad will be staying at my house to look after Campbell when we go on vacation, and he isn't comfortable with the dog sleeping up on the bed. So far, the only thing that has made him go back to sleep after waking up is if he gets up onto the bed with us. Therefor, as that won't be an option when my dad is watching him, I don't want him to get into the routine of sleeping on the bed with us.

tiddlez fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Feb 6, 2012

Fraction
Mar 27, 2010

CATS RULE DOGS DROOL

FERRETS ARE ALSO PRETTY MEH, HONESTLY


How much exercise does he get? Could you play with or walk him for an hour or so, right before 'bedtime'?

Have you tried covering the crate? I'd definitely try bringing the crate into your bedroom; he might just be lonely. You could also put something that smells of you (blanket/old clothes/etc) into the crate for him to lie on.

When you get up during the night, do you put him back in as he was? If so, you could try putting a frozen kong or similar in, to help keep his mind occupied.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

When you got up at 5:40am to let him out again, was he howling when you did? You should never give the dog attention or let him out while he is making a fuss. Wait for a moment of silence (even if it's a short one or if you have to wait a loong time), otherwise he is learning that if he keeps it up, he eventually gets what he wants.

Some dogs are also distressed by being too far away, so trying the crate in the bedroom might help. Playing white noise for my dog also helped.

To keep him awake longer in the evening, find a treat or toy that he loves and get him to play or perform tricks. He should wake up if he loves it enough.

tiddlez
Nov 25, 2006

Nice shirt, Gaywad.
Thanks for the replies everyone. He gets quite a lot of exercise, especially at the weekends. During the week he goes out a walk for approx 40-50mins every morning, before I go to work. He is then out for a half hour - an hour at lunchtime, then I come home and we go out for about 1.5-2hours walk. He then has dinner, and goes out to do his business again. After this we usually play for a while and he zonks out from tiredness. He's then out for his business again before bed.

Tonight I'm going to try and skip the 1.5-2hr walk after walk, and instead do the big walk around half 8 tonight. Then I will try him in his travel crate tonight in the bedroom and see how we get on from there.

As soon as he hears me sit up in bed he stops howling, as he thinks someone is coming. He doesn't cry again unless it's been a long time, ie he knows no one is coming down.

At the weekend we go to a big dog friendly park next to the water and he plays and runs with other dogs and is pretty chilled out after that for the rest of the day.

I kind of think it's a mix of loneliness, and being far away, and also that he slept too early, and is all sleeped out by 3am.

I've tried covering the crate up and that actually made him wake up earlier, I think he got wierded out that he couldn't see out? Thanks again for the advice guys. I'm trying everything I can think of to make him happier during the night.

Dancingthroughlife
Dec 15, 2009

Will dance for cupcakes
Is NILIF the same thing as the Premack principle?

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Dancingthroughlife posted:

Is NILIF the same thing as the Premack principle?

Nope. Nothing in Life is Free is where you set up boundaries by making your dog work for everything he gets in life. So he wants his food, he has to sit. He wants attention, he has to sit. This is along the lines of teaching your dog to 'say please', though it is more of a broad life philosophy about teaching your dog that he can't demand something for nothing than a single trick or command.

The premack principle is about using a high probability (strongly reinforcing) behavior to reinforce a low probability behavior. My dog's example is she wants to chase squirrels (a highly rewarding behavior) and so I use her need to chase squirrels as a reward for her sitting and looking at me when she sees a squirrel (a very low probability behavior when a squirrel is around). This can be part of NILIF because I control the access to the squirrels and she has to do something for me before she can chase them, but the key part that makes it premack is using the probable behavior to get the low probability behavior.

Let me know if that doesn't make sense.

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
I Premack the crap out of Shadow in the park around squirrels. It's funny how he gets WAY more excited about chasing them when I make him wait for permission.

Topoisomerase
Apr 12, 2007

CULTURE OF VICIOUSNESS

notsoape posted:

Request: If you have a dog who knows how to retrieve, but who hasn't yet done any directional work, take them some place with plenty of room to your left and right. Have them wait while you throw one toy left (due West/9 o'Clock) and another right (Due East/3 o'Clock). Get down to their eye level, and point them in one direction or another with your regular 'retrieve' command. Does the dog go get the toy you're pointing to? Can you get them to go get the other one by pointing towards it too?

During the course of our regular fetch/retrieving sessions, Pippa will often look away for a second just about when I'm throwing a ball and when she does, will just sit and stare at me until I point her in the right direction. Of course since she's deaf there are no verbal signals involved, but I do offer up a very exaggerated point at this stage of her training. She understood this pretty perfectly on the very first time that I thought to do it. I will try adding a second toy or ball into the equation next time.

Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Feb 7, 2012

Hdip
Aug 21, 2002

Kiri koli posted:

a reward for her sitting and looking at me when she sees a squirrel

When we see a squirrel in the park, if I stop and penny reaches the end of her leash she will sit. How do I get her to look back at me? Just wait it out?

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
Basically, yeah. If she ignores you, then she gets ignored too. If you call her or make a noise at her, you're soliciting her attention, she's not giving it to you of her own volition. Wait until she gives you her attention, then praise (or click if you're clicker training) and let her Chase The Squirrels if she can.

edit: vvv Also that. Shadow picks things up really quickly so I don't have to start as slow and gradual as some people do and it slips my mind.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Hdip posted:

When we see a squirrel in the park, if I stop and penny reaches the end of her leash she will sit. How do I get her to look back at me? Just wait it out?

Squirrels are super high on the distraction scale. Try creating the focus behaviour on significantly lower distractions to start (or no distractions). It'll take some time before getting a reliable focus around distractions.

I would also recommend you read Control Unleashed by McDevitt. In it the author talks about the Look At That game which really is the basis for a huge variety of work around distractions.

Silver Nitrate
Oct 17, 2005

WHAT
At work I mentioned my dog being a bed hog and this one guy went all "dominance" on me. Apparently letting my dog sleep on the bed means that he thinks that he controls the house and he will start misbehaving because he thinks he leads the "pack". Then started telling me all about how his dog isn't allowed to do, well, basically anything because the dog will think it's the boss. I haven't heard it in a while and it sounded so very, very insecure. It was like he was genuinely worried his dog would turn vicious controller of the house if it got to walk through a doorway before a person or farted without permission. It was kind of sad and I felt sorry for his dog.

How do you deal with these people?

Fraction
Mar 27, 2010

CATS RULE DOGS DROOL

FERRETS ARE ALSO PRETTY MEH, HONESTLY


Silver Nitrate posted:

At work I mentioned my dog being a bed hog and this one guy went all "dominance" on me. Apparently letting my dog sleep on the bed means that he thinks that he controls the house and he will start misbehaving because he thinks he leads the "pack". Then started telling me all about how his dog isn't allowed to do, well, basically anything because the dog will think it's the boss. I haven't heard it in a while and it sounded so very, very insecure. It was like he was genuinely worried his dog would turn vicious controller of the house if it got to walk through a doorway before a person or farted without permission. It was kind of sad and I felt sorry for his dog.

How do you deal with these people?

You can pretty much either stay noncommittal and quiet, say something like 'it's never affected my dog' * or, if they seem open to it, try to explain that dominance theory has been proven to be incorrect - even in wolves, where the studies originated. It generally depends on how well you know the person, how well you think they'll react (people don't like being told that something they think is wrong), etc.

Sometimes people surprise you. Feel good story: my grandparents visited on Sunday, and the topic of conversation got round to their 'aggressive' dog. I cringed and bit my tongue in expectation of a dominance talk, and instead my grandma told me how they'd gotten a clicker, were c/ting every time Poppy saw another dog, and it was going very well. :unsmith:


* Note: don't use the 'my dog is fine/not dominated' reason when your dog is with you and can make you look like a filthy liar by reacting to the person you're talking to. Urgh.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Silver Nitrate posted:

At work I mentioned my dog being a bed hog and this one guy went all "dominance" on me. Apparently letting my dog sleep on the bed means that he thinks that he controls the house and he will start misbehaving because he thinks he leads the "pack". Then started telling me all about how his dog isn't allowed to do, well, basically anything because the dog will think it's the boss. I haven't heard it in a while and it sounded so very, very insecure. It was like he was genuinely worried his dog would turn vicious controller of the house if it got to walk through a doorway before a person or farted without permission. It was kind of sad and I felt sorry for his dog.

How do you deal with these people?

I'm not sure how to deal with these people because they always seem to be very set on dominance theory once they 'learn' it. I was surprised though because I was reading a book by Sophia Yin and she had in there a bunch of stuff about not letting your dog on furniture etc. Of course, she left out the dominance talk and was basically talking about NILIF (which I admit, I don't go that far, my dog is allowed on furniture). It's not the worst thing for novice owners because by controlling access to some things, they can avoid a lot of resource guarding and other doggie problems that happens when the dog is allowed to do anything (until the owners decide he can't do x and start punishing him because 'he knows he's being bad!').

But yeah, the dominance part and not going through doors first stuff is all silly and I don't understand why people cling to that part. It's like with kids, they need boundaries. No one tries to tell you that your toddler is trying to dominate you when he climbs on your couch.

Hdip, as a life less said, you should build up a focus or watch command beforehand with lower or no distractions. My dog is very accustomed to sitting and looking at me, so she did it automatically. Waiting it is not the best idea because the dog is likely to break the sit. But if you get a chance lookback, take it! I also don't bother with a clicker or praise in between, I just say 'okay!' and we take off after the squirrel so she really connects the sit/attention with squirrel chasing. Once the dog gets it, you can lengthen the time or vary the rate of reinforcement by not chasing the squirrel sometimes (reward the dog for leaving off in that case).

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.
I guess I was more thinking of the impulse control exercises I do at my internship (no sit to worry about breaking, and more focused on contextual cues).

My co-worker believed in dominance theory, did the whole alpha rolling, scruff shaking, etc. And that's how his daughter's dog bit him. :downs: Luckily he's actually been really receptive and open to what I have to say.

I've been reading 'It's Me or the Dog' and she throws the words "dominant" and "submissive" around a lot here and there. Luckily she doesn't state any bullcrap about not letting them on furniture, walk ahead of you, etc.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Skizzles posted:

I guess I was more thinking of the impulse control exercises I do at my internship (no sit to worry about breaking, and more focused on contextual cues).

Well, of course, sit doesn't have to be the goal behavior. You could just want your dog to look back at you, or even just relax his body in some way. That would be good impulse control. I always get stuck up on sitting examples because my dog is a jumper so sitting is the best opposite behavior for her. But as long as you know your goal, there are tons of different ways you can go about it. :)

I think some prominent people use dominant and submissive as descriptions because they are expected. Also, somewhat unfortunately I think, they are sometimes the best words. I mean, submissive behavior (a dog who shows his belly or whatever) is very common and it is a good word to describe it, I just think that people hear the word and read waaay more into it than they should, like dominating = evil (and you need to regain control, oh noes!) and submissive = weak.

Toxx
Aug 25, 2002

Silver Nitrate posted:


How do you deal with these people?

I hate people and avoid conversing with them at all costs. :(

epic Kingdom Hearts LP
Feb 17, 2006

What a shame
I was c/t'ing Hurley today on the bike path when he saw other dogs, but after the first few times, he was so focused on the other dogs he stopped being interested in the treats.

I walked him far away and out of eyesight of them but he still would not take the treats. How do I get around this?

Meniscus
May 28, 2010
How do you know what's reactivity or aggression, and what's just bad dog manners?

Brixie, my chihuahua will strain and pull on lead, and get stiff legged and stare occasionally when seeing other dogs. When at home and looking at a window, she'll often bark some at other dogs passing by. But, the shelter said she was good with other animals, and was in the kennel with another dog with no problems. I haven't seen how she is offlead with other dogs, namely because I don't have any easily accessible calm dogs we can just go hog wild with. (And besides, I worry that if I am right and she is reactive/ aggressive and starts poo poo, that she's going to be on the losing end of a fight.)

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Meniscus posted:

How do you know what's reactivity or aggression, and what's just bad dog manners?

Brixie, my chihuahua will strain and pull on lead, and get stiff legged and stare occasionally when seeing other dogs. When at home and looking at a window, she'll often bark some at other dogs passing by. But, the shelter said she was good with other animals, and was in the kennel with another dog with no problems. I haven't seen how she is offlead with other dogs, namely because I don't have any easily accessible calm dogs we can just go hog wild with. (And besides, I worry that if I am right and she is reactive/ aggressive and starts poo poo, that she's going to be on the losing end of a fight.)

It's really hard to separate those three things because they can lead to or be caused by each other.

Bad doggie manners means that a dog hasn't learned or ignores signals from other dogs that tell him whether the other dog wants to play or wants him to back the gently caress off. So maybe he always plays too rough or whatever. Similarly, the dog may not know how to give those signals himself or has had them ignored and so learns to respond with different signals like lunging or growling.

Reactivity is just when a dog displays an inappropriate response to a stimulus. A dog who cowers when a person extends a hand to pet them is being reactive. A dog who lunges, growls, and snaps at another dog being nearby is being reactive. Causes of reactivity include the aforementioned lack of manners which often stems from poor socialization, overexcitement, anxiety, or fear (and these can all lead to one another as well).

Aggression in dogs is just like in people. All dogs are capable of aggression if the right stimulus is presented. Some dogs are bred to be aggressive in some situations, but for the most part, dogs that show aggression they weren't bred or trained for it, are being anxious or fearful or have a medical issue.

Your dog sounds like she has some (maybe really minor) leash reactivity. Pulling on the leash could just be excitement, but being stiff legged and staring could indicate some anxiety. The barking at passing dogs thing is very common because a dog will bark the first time someone passes the window because it is a new, scary thing, and ta da! The other dog/person/mailman leaves. So they bark again next time and the behavior reinforces itself. You should counter-condition seeing passing dogs and control her access to windows.

It is not uncommon for a dog to display different behaviors in a shelter than in a new home, so even if the shelter told you she was okay, that doesn't mean she is (especially if everything was off-leash at the shelter and now she's suddenly on-leash). So you should read up on leash-reactivity and try to pin down where your dog is at and what you need to do to help.

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.
A whistle recall:
http://twitpic.com/8hmaxd

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Athanatos
Jun 7, 2006

Est. 1967
Trying to work on Stay in the Sit position, but if I wait more than 2 or so seconds, pup goes into the Down position. He knows the difference if I just give him the Down or Sit command/sign, but waiting anytime he just lays down. Should I just start doing Stay in Down and try to do sit later, or just shorten the Stay time keeping it at 2 seconds for a while?

Have a picture for your assistance:

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