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Petey posted:I remember when someone posted a thread about how lawyers were doing poorly in D&D and this was the kneejerk, faith-based response for several pages. Still not as egregious as that drilling/fracking thread where a geology dude was run out of the thread for being in the pockets of BIG OIL for not agreeing with them. I loved this exchange in the supwerbowl tff thread: FizFashizzle posted:Pats at half, Giants to win. Petey posted:How much do they pay you to sweep the streets of the Magic Kingdom anyway? FizFashizzle posted:A little more than you'll make with your law degree.
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Feb 5, 2012 17:25
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Phil Moscowitz posted:You guys need to lighten up a little, or else they'll all figure out our scheme to limit competition in our lucrative profession
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Feb 5, 2012 17:25
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I wish the people who were convinced not to go by this thread would come back and tell us about their awesome lives.
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Feb 5, 2012 17:42
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crankdatbatman posted:I want to waste three years of my life Well, none of those schools are going to get you a law-related job unless you are one of the top 10 people in the class. Do not count on being one of these people because other people have full tuition scholarships and are equally, if not more qualified than you, a lot of it is luck, and there will be people there willing to work harder/be smarter than you. I would not consider there to be a difference in prestige in any of those schools either because they are all garbage. If you absolutely insist on doing this, go to one of the schools that gave you full tuition because then at least you will be unemployed with a relatively small amount of debt. Also what do you think doing "considerably well" on the LSAT means? Nero fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Feb 5, 2012 |
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Feb 5, 2012 17:56
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diospadre posted:I wish the people who were convinced not to go by this thread would come back and tell us about their awesome lives. I went to law school and I have an awesome life. Law school is a lovely and unnecessary institution that wastes years of your life, but I've enjoyed my professional experience. If I went back in time to the end of ugrad, there are some general things I would do differently, but I would still go to law school. Edit: actually, no, I would just abuse my knowledge of the future to make tonnes of money, and then do something worth posting about. Nero posted:Well, none of those schools are going to get you a law-related job unless you are one of the top 10 people in the class. That is absolutely false. You do not have to be anywhere near the top ten percent at IUB to get a law related job. There are plenty of ways to criticise law schools, and IUB in particular, but that is not one of them. Agesilaus fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 5, 2012 |
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Feb 5, 2012 18:28
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Ok, I probably look like a loving rear end in a top hat for even bringing it up. I guess as soon as I read the OP I should've run for my life. I'm completely aware of how risky and horrible law school can be and how it can also be a financial deathtrap. I do, however, notice that this forum in general is extremely negative. You can't tell me that these law schools just sit here and exploit thousands of students each year. There's got to be some kind of career opportunity for people, even at trashy schools, right? As for disregarding the info from the OP, I didn't. Several times in it it clearly states that if you have a full tuition scholarship and an interest in actual law, then it's not as awful a decision as you guys are making it out to be. As for patent law, I get that the schools I suggested aren't T14s or anything on that level and are probably garbage, but they have programs. Hell, the MSU guy I saw at a law fair last fall kept going on and on about the patent law program. I realize that if I go through with this there is a good loving chance I'll be an alcoholic with clinical depression, and I may just end it all by the time I'm 32, but could someone please be objective about these few questions I have. Every law school I've come across has told me they have really high employment rates, above 80 and usually above 90%. Median salaries are usually much higher than what you people are suggesting too. Unless I'm misinterpreting things, a median salary would suggest that--while the distribution is highly askew--there are as many jobs on the higher end of the given number as the lower end. Granted, there would be jobs that pay 35-40k a year, but just as many that pay 135k-140k. I understand, the distribution of salaries is extremely binodal. I've done research on it, and I'm not entirely sold on going to law school--hence why I'm gathering information. I feel I invested too much money into the LSAT/application process to just completely give up on the concept because I've read some scathing posts in a forum that prides itself anyway on its negativity. That's why I'm looking every where for answers; and--in this case, staring at the lion right in his eyes. I realize the concept of exploitation of naive students who think any school is "a good law school" and that a J.D is going to net them a cozy high paying job is a real thing. I just cannot comprehend that the market is that horrible, when the objective numbers just do not look that bad. Maybe it is. facebook jihad fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Feb 5, 2012 |
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Feb 5, 2012 19:38
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crankdatbatman posted:You can't tell me that these law schools just sit here and exploit thousands of students each year. There's got to be some kind of career opportunity for people, even at trashy schools, right? holy lol
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Feb 5, 2012 19:46
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crankdatbatman posted:I realize that if I go through with this there is a good loving chance I'll be an alcoholic with clinical depression, and I may just end it all by the time I'm 32, but could someone please be objective about these few questions I have. Every law school I've come across has told me they have really high employment rates, above 80 and usually above 90%. After reading this I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but you realize there are at least fifteen schools being sued right now because students are accusing them of inflating these numbers, right?
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Feb 5, 2012 19:49
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crankdatbatman posted:
The reported median salary is based on those who actually responded to the survey, which is usually much less than 100% and heavily biased toward the much smaller group of people who actually got high paying jobs.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:00
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MaximumBob posted:After reading this I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but you realize there are at least fifteen schools being sued right now because students are accusing them of inflating these numbers, right? I...just found this: msnbc.com posted:Last year, Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., and Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. , asked the Department of Education to investigate the “job placement rates of American law school graduates; indicating whether such jobs are full- or part-time positions, whether they require a law degree, and whether they were maintained a year after employment." A call Thursday by msnbc.com to Sen. Boxer's office was not immediately returned. So if I were to become manager of the local Bob Evans after graduating with my JD, I'd be counted as one of these "employed lawyers"? I swear I'm not trolling. If you get the crap I'm discussing every other page, I apologize. I just want answers.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:01
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crankdatbatman posted:I...just found this: Correct. And if you're unemployed you probably don't return the survey because you're unemployed and the last thing you feel like doing is advertising the fact. And since the school knows that, they will make zero effort to follow-up with you, and eliminate you from their statistics.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:03
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crankdatbatman posted:Words I like law school more than most here but that doesn't change that most people are right about employment prospects. The fact is there are tons of law schools and only a handful of good entry-level positions available right after graduation. That's just how it is. Take the LSAT again and get into better schools, or you'll have a grandson with a dog collar. Do not have a grandson with a dog collar.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:05
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crankdatbatman posted:I...just found this: The answer is yes. Temp positions at the school created specifically to fulfill "Employed at 9 months after graduation" also count, and these positions conveniently expire as soon as this period ends.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:06
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crankdatbatman posted:MSU stuff I work at a small regional firm in the Midwest. You've never heard of it unless you're from Michigan and you're connected with the legal community. We don't get paid market. My firm has hired pretty much every MSU law valedictorian for the past eight years. This means that my regional firm - which provides a great life, but not the life you're thinking you're destined for - is the absolute best-case scenario. I want you to think about that long and hard.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:25
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Adar posted:The closest most of these places get to patent law is when someone falls while wearing really glossy shoes. I bet you thought I was kidding when I said this. I wasn't. Seriouspost: because it's free, the MSU option is the best* on the list. You've applied to every possible geographic location in the US so you likely have absolutely no idea what any of these regional markets look like or that you will probably be stuck in your school's state forever. As a 1L at MSU, you have a ~10% chance of transferring to Michigan (which your entire law review-eligible class will do), which doesn't guarantee a job either but does at least whitewash your terrible law school choice for a mere $100K sticker. The remainder of the pack has a ~10% chance of being on the law review after the first set got the hell out, which is great as long as you love the (economically depressed as gently caress and never getting better and also really cold) state of Michigan and never plan to leave. The remainder of *that* pack will be scrambling for $30K shitlaw jobs before eventually leaving their JDs off their resume to go work at Costco's, although MSU will of course be happy to count them all as employed. That is the reality for roughly 80% of the MSU entering class. This does not account for the fact that your awesome scholarship is no doubt set to some GPA that translates to a top 20-33% class ranking, that if you do well the correct play is to get the hell out so you lose it *anyway*, and that after all of that, chances are practicing law is not actually what you want to do for a living. *None of this applies if you are a hot girl trying to social climb by marrying up. In that case, the best option is to go to Miami. Just make sure not to marry a classmate because they're all hosed.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:44
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Zarkov Cortez posted:I admin a required for you (it is for us, but in 2L)? Admin in 1L does seem a little harsh. It really doesn't get any more boring and all legal analysis than admin, but of course, it is U of T... Ours is a required for either 2L or 3L. Kind of glad I took it in 2L since the admin exams for this year are at the end of the exam period. Yes, I chose my 3L classes based on what would get me out of law school earliest. 
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Feb 5, 2012 20:49
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crankdatbatman, I went to MSU, and I managed to get a pretty good job. It's hard though, you'd have to do very well and almost everyone who is employed from my year is employed in Michigan. Also nobody gives a poo poo about MSU for patent law as far as I know, MSU sells itself as some sort of patent-law powerhouse but there's not a lot of IP classes and most of the people I knew that wanted to do IP are now not practicing in that area. J Miracle fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Feb 5, 2012 |
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Feb 5, 2012 20:52
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School specialties are all bullshit: all that matters is their general ranking and that is all anyone will care about when hiring you.
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Feb 5, 2012 20:59
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Adar posted:I bet you thought I was kidding when I said this. I wasn't. Are you joking? IUB is on that list, and has far better job prospects than what you said. It's ranked in the mid 20s last time I checked, the career resources were genuinely helpful in my experience, and the people I knew in law school seem to be work at a variety of firms and government positions. I myself am working at the government office I spent my summers at, and at the end of 3L I was strictly an average student, if not worse (very high 1L grades, then very steep decline 2L and 3L).
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Feb 5, 2012 21:14
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Penguins Like Pies posted:Admin in 1L does seem a little harsh. It really doesn't get any more boring and all legal analysis than admin, but of course, it is U of T... Yeah, admin replaces legal process in the second semester for 1Ls. It used to be taken in 2/3L, but they made it part of the 1L program a couple of years ago. I have contracts a week after all of my other exams are finished. 
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Feb 5, 2012 22:05
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crankdatbatman posted:Every law school I've come across has told me they have really high employment rates, above 80 and usually above 90%. Median salaries are usually much higher than what you people are suggesting too. I'm not trying to be snarky or mean here. When you go to Best Buy they tell you to buy the gold plated monster cables because they will make your television's picture better and your printer print faster. You know not to believe them because they are lying to you inn order to sell a bad product at a super inflated price. Don't believe what schools tell you, they're doing the same thing.
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Feb 5, 2012 22:05
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Agesilaus posted:Are you joking? IUB is on that list, and has far better job prospects than what you said. It's ranked in the mid 20s last time I checked, the career resources were genuinely helpful in my experience, and the people I knew in law school seem to be work at a variety of firms and government positions. I myself am working at the government office I spent my summers at, and at the end of 3L I was strictly an average student, if not worse (very high 1L grades, then very steep decline 2L and 3L). You graduated before things went to poo poo, didn't you. The only reason MSU is worth going to* is because it's free. IUB isn't worth going to if you're paying sticker for it, or even close to sticker. *still not worth going.
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Feb 5, 2012 22:26
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diospadre posted:I'm not trying to be snarky or mean here. When you go to Best Buy they tell you to buy the gold plated monster cables because they will make your television's picture better and your printer print faster. You know not to believe them because they are lying to you inn order to sell a bad product at a super inflated price. Don't believe what schools tell you, they're doing the same thing. I have no problem being snarky and mean to him. crankdatbatman, if you go to these law schools you are a dumb person. quote:I feel I invested too much money into the LSAT/application process to just completely give up on the concept because I've read some scathing posts in a forum that prides itself anyway on its negativity. That's why I'm looking every where for answers; and--in this case, staring at the lion right in his eyes. You've invested, what, a few hundred bucks in LSAT fees and maybe a few hours studying? Is that a joke? You're retarded if you think LSAT and application fees put you too far in the pull out. I advise people who don't get top 25% in their first year to drop out. That's a full year of tuition and fees and it's still a better decision to drop out than continue. quote:I realize the concept of exploitation of naive students who think any school is "a good law school" and that a J.D is going to net them a cozy high paying job is a real thing. I just cannot comprehend that the market is that horrible, when the objective numbers just do not look that bad. Maybe it is. The "objective numbers" are made up fantasy land number, not objective. The fact that you are unable to apply basic strategies of logic to figure out that used car salesmen lie to you means you are not prepared for law school. The only thing objective about you is that you are objectively dumb if you go and objectively should not go to law school. IUB guaranteed free ride might be a non-dumb decision but there are lots of caveats even to that. MSU free ride is dumb.
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Feb 5, 2012 22:26
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Kalman posted:You graduated before things went to poo poo, didn't you. The only reason MSU is worth going to* is because it's free. IUB isn't worth going to if you're paying sticker for it, or even close to sticker. Things went to poo poo sometime after my 1L summer (2008), as I recall edit: at the time, IUB had a significantly poorer rank, too Agesilaus fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Feb 5, 2012 |
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Feb 5, 2012 22:43
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J Miracle posted:crankdatbatman, I went to MSU, and I managed to get a pretty good job. It's hard though, you'd have to do very well and almost everyone who is employed from my year is employed in Michigan. Also nobody gives a poo poo about MSU for patent law as far as I know, MSU sells itself as some sort of patent-law powerhouse but there's not a lot of IP classes and most of the people I knew that wanted to do IP are now not practicing in that area. Just to be clear for the guy thinking about going to MSU, JMiracle was a law school all-star.
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Feb 5, 2012 22:43
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J Miracle posted:crankdatbatman, I went to MSU, and I managed to get a pretty good job. It's hard though, you'd have to do very well and almost everyone who is employed from my year is employed in Michigan. Also nobody gives a poo poo about MSU for patent law as far as I know, MSU sells itself as some sort of patent-law powerhouse but there's not a lot of IP classes and most of the people I knew that wanted to do IP are now not practicing in that area. Batman, please read my post above, then read this quoted post, then realize that J Miracle was king of his class at MSU, then realize that my firm didn't even give J Miracle an interview (even though that was a big mistake because he's an awesome person and a slavish worker).
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Feb 5, 2012 22:48
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Thank you very much HR although I think there are some MSULR board members who would disagree with you.Feces Starship posted:Batman, please read my post above, then read this quoted post, then realize that J Miracle was king of his class at MSU, then realize that my firm didn't even give J Miracle an interview (even though that was a big mistake because he's an awesome person and a slavish worker). TWO rejection letters from that place, just to make sure I got the point that I was rejected  The thing about this guy with the full ride to MSU is, while I'm hesitant to encourage anyone to go there, I DO know a fair amount of people who are employed in some legal capacity that graduated with me. Not that any of them is the average schlub but they also weren't JUST the top 1%. It's true most don't work in big or even mid-law firms but still, they work as lawyers. I know people who work for the COA and several for the Michigan Attorney General as well as smaller firms and a few state court clerks (only one federal clerkship that I know of--the LR EIC). I don't know I guess I'm just saying it might be possible that it's not a huge mistake to go to MSU for free. But you're talking to a guy who was dumb enough to turn down a transfer to U of M soooooooo
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Feb 5, 2012 23:04
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BigHead posted:I have no problem being snarky and mean to him. Ok, first of all. I am not going to try to refute you or argue with you. You guys clearly know more about the system than I do. I'm going to defend my logic a bit more. I asked, you told. My investment is obviously not nearly what I would be facing if I actually pulled the trigger and went to law school. When I said that, I was referring to the fact that I had put a lot of time and effort so far into applying to just run away from it the first time I see "law school might be a bad investment". I'm seriously considering dropping the idea, but I need to get as much information as possibly before I do that. I was thinking more heavily about it before I had received my big scholarship from MSU. I'm not as knowledgeable on how lovely the legal job landscape is. No need to be a jackass. quote:The "objective numbers" are made up fantasy land number, not objective. The fact that you are unable to apply basic strategies of logic to figure out that used car salesmen lie to you means you are not prepared for law school. The only thing objective about you is that you are objectively dumb if you go and objectively should not go to law school. gently caress it, whatever. When I said objective numbers I meant that I looked at third party sites for my sources. I know the numbers looked somewhat fishy considering the percentages reported and everything, but I guess I am naive enough to actually believe what I've read when it comes to analyzing which law schools are best for me. I just, still don't understand this "T1 or bust" philosophy. I come from a smaller city in Mississippi. ~25-30,000 people. ALL the respectable lawyers come from Ole Miss, which is a mid-level Tier 3 at best. People get jobs from these crappy schools, somehow, even though the jobs may be regional.
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Feb 5, 2012 23:47
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crankdatbatman posted:I just, still don't understand this "T1 or bust" philosophy. I come from a smaller city in Mississippi. ~25-30,000 people. ALL the respectable lawyers come from Ole Miss, which is a mid-level Tier 3 at best. People get jobs from these crappy schools, somehow, even though the jobs may be regional. Count the number of those people you've heard of, then calculate how many people graduated from that school in that time.
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Feb 5, 2012 23:50
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evilweasel posted:Count the number of those people you've heard of, then calculate how many people graduated from that school in that time. Not to mention that the vast majority of those "respectable" lawyers are likely decades into their careers. The legal market now is a LOT different now than it was even in the late 90s, much less the 80s or earlier. There are a ton more schools, WAY more students, and really not that many more jobs. Or at least the jobs are a lot different than they used to be and the employers have all realized that they can get somebody better than the guy who went to the local lovely T4. Note that this can be a little bit different in places where the local lovely T4 is still the best law school in the state/region. But usually when that's the case, the legal market is pretty depressed anyways (or else there'd be more schools there to take advantage of the market).
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Feb 6, 2012 00:06
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crankdatbatman posted:I just, still don't understand this "T1 or bust" philosophy. I come from a smaller city in Mississippi. ~25-30,000 people. ALL the respectable lawyers come from Ole Miss, which is a mid-level Tier 3 at best. People get jobs from these crappy schools, somehow, even though the jobs may be regional. Edit: I know I've mentioned this book before, but I think that all 0Ls should be required to read Thinking, Fast and Slow before they enroll. Among the many cognitive biases discussed in the book is the availability bias, and also the planning fallacy, which is the tendency to overestimate benefits and underestimate costs, and hence foolishly to take on risky projects. 10-8 fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 00:54
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crankdatbatman posted:Ok, first of all. I am not going to try to refute you or argue with you. You guys clearly know more about the system than I do. I'm going to defend my logic a bit more. I asked, you told. Why don't you just get a patenting job right now instead of fantasizing about wasting years of your life pursuing a career you have no idea if you will enjoy? Hint hint this is the same mistake you made when you took engineering.
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Feb 6, 2012 02:18
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Zo posted:Why don't you just get a patenting job right now instead of fantasizing about wasting years of your life pursuing a career you have no idea if you will enjoy? Hint hint this is the same mistake you made when you took engineering. Great advice. Pass the patent bar and try getting a patent agent job to see if you'll actually like being a patent scribe. It's not for everyone.
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Feb 6, 2012 02:27
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I like to see people suffer as a result of poor decisions. It makes me feel less lonely.
Penguins Like Pies fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 02:59
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Zo posted:Why don't you just get a patenting job right now instead of fantasizing about wasting years of your life pursuing a career you have no idea if you will enjoy? Hint hint this is the same mistake you made when you took engineering.
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Feb 6, 2012 03:20
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Ersatz posted:Quoting for emphasis. If your goal is patent law, you should seriously consider applying to work as an examiner at the USPTO. This is what my Trademarks & Patents teacher recommended (get a job at CIPO) for people really interested in the subject. e: Unfortunately I only applied to Toronto for 2L summer jobs in September (ignoring Calgary & several Ottawa IP deadlines) and Toronto firms cut back on hiring this year. I just put in some applications to firms in Ottawa for advocacy, corporate and some IP though; however one of my preferred firms won't be hiring anyone else for IP. Penguins Like Pies posted:Admin in 1L does seem a little harsh. It really doesn't get any more boring and all legal analysis than admin, but of course, it is U of T... Constitutional 2.0 Zarkov Cortez fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 04:43
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crankdatbatman posted:Ok, first of all. I am not going to try to refute you or argue with you. You guys clearly know more about the system than I do. I'm going to defend my logic a bit more. I asked, you told. I know it feels like people are personally attacking you, but we're just trying to help and we're being honest. Add to the pile the fact that law school is going to probs be the worst three years of your life unless you grew up in the midst of an ethnic cleansing
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Feb 6, 2012 04:44
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crankdatbatman posted:
Well OK do you want to live and work in Michigan? I mean if you do, going to MSU and doing well MIGHT let you do that. Don't expect the MSU name to carry any weight outside of Michigan, and even within Michigan be prepared for "oh you mean Cooley?" a lot.
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Feb 6, 2012 05:14
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J Miracle posted:Well OK do you want to live and work in Michigan? I mean if you do, going to MSU and doing well MIGHT let you do that. Don't expect the MSU name to carry any weight outside of Michigan, and even within Michigan be prepared for "oh you mean Cooley?" a lot. Admittedly, most Michigan (As in University of) students leave, but not all of them. And Wayne State isn't far behind you in the rankings. Don't do it. If you're going to a T2, you don't want a T14 in your home market.
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Feb 6, 2012 06:35
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Ersatz posted:Quoting for emphasis. If your goal is patent law, you should seriously consider applying to work as an examiner at the USPTO. Ok...I might actually look into this, thanks for the tip. Feces Starship posted:I know it feels like people are personally attacking you, but we're just trying to help and we're being honest. I realize that most of you are doing this, and I really appreciate it--even if some people are being more humiliating than others. I'm not here to argue for law school. I just want information. Honestly I was expecting these kinds of answers when I submitted my first post. I've just heard two different stories, the "Law School Is Going to Get You a Good Job!!!" story that Law Schools and my more oblivious friends have pushed on me, and the "Law School Is Total Hell That Is totally Not Worth the Debt" story that this forum has triumphed and a few articles have suggested. I mostly came here because anti-law school chat comes up almost once a month in TFF, and I wanted to get a more direct source on the source behind it. I'm going to ask around with some people that I personally know who are going to law school currently or have recently graduated to get a less anonymous opinion on the matter, but what I've learned through the thread today has helped me a lot in my strategy. J Miracle posted:Well OK do you want to live and work in Michigan? I mean if you do, going to MSU and doing well MIGHT let you do that. Don't expect the MSU name to carry any weight outside of Michigan, and even within Michigan be prepared for "oh you mean Cooley?" a lot. One thing I did know before applying is that law schools are very regional. One poster called me out on applying to a school in every region in the country, which is totally no true. I have applied to southeastern schools (where my family lives and where I grew up) and midwestern schools (where I live and work currently) only. I applied to schools where I would rather live. That being said, I am totally fine with living in Michigan and would probably prefer it over Indiana (where I am now).
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Feb 6, 2012 06:42
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