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 http://scutanddestroy.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/flight-suit-sketches-01.jpg I've been trawling blogs about cold war flight gear lately and did a few sketches. Thought you goons might appreciate them. Note: The helmet is in no way historically accurate.
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Feb 14, 2012 21:52
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n0tqu1tesane posted:Wasn't there a story somewhere recently of some bridge in the US that was using giant forged parts from China? And they were having all kinds of problems building the bridge due to those forged parts being out of spec? While some Chinese items certainly have had (and still do) issues with quality control, and rightly so, that's hardly unique to China.
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Feb 14, 2012 21:54
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My point was more that China has a lot of press capability so it's probably still a good thing to have around rather than not have it around. Granted, their industrial production capabilities are a couple decades or more behind western countries it seems so it'll be interesting to see what way they go. Perhaps they ditch the forges too!
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Feb 14, 2012 22:05
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I find in my company's dealings with chinese manufacturers is that you have to constantly be watching them for quality control issues. If there is a corner that can be cut, it will be. Otherwise they are perfectly capable of making high-quality products.
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Feb 14, 2012 22:10
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Phanatic posted:
Pretty sure the Chinese would rather buy American Chinooks too, if given the chance.
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Feb 14, 2012 22:29
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n0tqu1tesane posted:Wasn't there a story somewhere recently of some bridge in the US that was using giant forged parts from China? And they were having all kinds of problems building the bridge due to those forged parts being out of spec? I know the Bay Bridge had some pieces fail a couple of years ago. Blame was quickly put on "inferior Chinese metal". I have no idea how accurate this is, but it sounded a lot like someone trying to scapegoat the Chinese (I believe the metal was made to the required specs, which would've put the blame on the American engineers, but its been a long time so I could be wrong.)
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Feb 15, 2012 03:56
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priznat posted:My point was more that China has a lot of press capability so it's probably still a good thing to have around rather than not have it around. quote:Granted, their industrial production capabilities are a couple decades or more behind western countries it seems so it'll be interesting to see what way they go. Perhaps they ditch the forges too! That said, where they do have plants that were built within the past 20 years (which are everywhere) their production techniques are second to none because, well, they are absolutely cutting edge modern plants and that's cost prohibitive in many cases in North America due to various reasons. IE: Labor agreements, land costs, taxes, whatever. In my business which is industrial power transmission, drives and components (think bearings, gearboxes, stuff like that) the differences are miniscule if any in many regards. There are exceptions though like anywhere else. Contrasting to the slack quality control, I just took delivery of several thousand dollars worth of Timken  bearings which were all in the wrong box right from the factory. We're talking absolute basic poo poo here. The only thing right was that they were bearings. That's it. And that's just the latest case which is fresh in my mind. It's like ordering a 100 AR15 mags, get 100 boxes of AR15 mags, and inside the boxes right from the production line are Sig 220 mags  Which brings me around to my little point that I was trying to make, if it's quality control we're talking about, the chinese don't have a monopoly by any stretch. Sure they have issues, but so does everyone else. I would maybe go so far as to say that the sheer volume of stuff they ship, they might even have less in most regards. Edit: I think the jest was quality of material, but to be clear my point was the same. I've seen abysmal poo poo come out of North America with scary regularity in some regards. Double edit: Here is a time appropriate story from the CBC http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/02/14/calgary-peace-bridge-open-date.html quote:It was due to be complete by the fall of 2010 but ran behind schedule after problems were discovered with the welds done by workers in Europe slidebite fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Feb 15, 2012 |
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Feb 15, 2012 04:28
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I think in a lot of cases it is "Lol look at these crappy chinese workers with their lovely quality" when the alternative that they're competent AND cheap as hell is frankly pretty terrifying. I forget where I had read something about Chinese industrial capability but now that I think about it it was easily 5 years ago so it could have been even out of date at that time. Sometimes I forget how fast things move, my bad. We get a lot of electronic stuff fabbed in China, however it depends on the application. If it's a low volume, high cost/complexity prototype/validation platform, we get the board fabbed in the US and the parts populated in Burnaby (!!). If it's a high volume production design then it gets done in China. You're right though, it's crazy how much electronics assembly is done by hand there. I am in the middle of designing a DVI/Displayport test fixture PCI card and we floated the idea of the production in China using one to test parts coming off the line. Nope, it's way cheaper just to hire someone to run through all the tests by hand (and it's probably one of the better jobs over there, just looking at digital video streams and test patterns)
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Feb 15, 2012 04:48
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priznat posted:I think in a lot of cases it is "Lol look at these crappy chinese workers with their lovely quality" when the alternative that they're competent AND cheap as hell is frankly pretty terrifying. I draw parallels to the Japanese in the 70s. I (and I suspect most of us now) view most Japanese products as superior in many regards even compared to North American. I know I do with cars for sure. The truth is that it was for a several years before we even realized or admitted it. I kind of view China in 2012 (or have for quite a few years actually) in the same way. In another 10 years or so, it won't even be a question other than biggots that'll never trust them.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:01
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mikerock posted:Hey Boomerjinks why don't you tell us about how you stole an idea from AI and profited from it? Hey everyone, keep this whiny helldumpy bullshit up, it doesn't cost me a dime to keep banning people!
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Feb 15, 2012 05:02
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slidebite posted:The truth is that it was for a several years before we even realized or admitted it. I kind of view China in 2012 (or have for quite a few years actually) in the same way. In another 10 years or so, it won't even be a question other than biggots that'll never trust them. I went from "Norinco guns? no thanks I don't want my face exploded" to thinking of them as one of the best values out there. A lot of my initial impression was just experience with cheap + shoddy chinese goods, but really they can run the gamut and even at the high-ish end of quality be relatively inexpensive. Also I read an interesting article recently that even if Apple wanted to move production of the iPhone/iPad back to North America, it would be completely impossible for several reasons. It isn't just the low low wages, but the labour pool it can draw on numbers wise and the huge supply chain already in place. Same goes for any of the large volume productions that companies like Foxconn crank out, we don't have anything like that at all in north america. Movies, music and microcode!
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Feb 15, 2012 05:07
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slidebite posted:Timken One of the bummers about a lot of industrial manufacture going overseas is that there is a lot less industrial manufacture advertisement in the mass market. You can still get it in the industry press, but usually it is just a low-key image of a product with the name and logo. Timken used to put awesome future ads in Life magazine. wish this didn't have the copy trimmed off it  timken46 by RReiheld, on Flickr Nother  
Slo-Tek fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Feb 15, 2012 |
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Feb 15, 2012 05:11
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priznat posted:We get a lot of electronic stuff fabbed in China, however it depends on the application. If it's a low volume, high cost/complexity prototype/validation platform, we get the board fabbed in the US and the parts populated in Burnaby (!!). If it's a high volume production design then it gets done in China. You're right though, it's crazy how much electronics assembly is done by hand there. I am in the middle of designing a DVI/Displayport test fixture PCI card and we floated the idea of the production in China using one to test parts coming off the line. Nope, it's way cheaper just to hire someone to run through all the tests by hand (and it's probably one of the better jobs over there, just looking at digital video streams and test patterns) Not to derail too much, but I recently realized that the computers/peripherals my company makes are almost entirely produced in North America. At "worst" we have a fab in Toronto make our PCBs for us. No Chinese content whatsoever aside from passive components. Even the ICs are all US, straight from prototype or university fabs. It's funny how far you have to go to make a product that's truly "PRC-free" (not the intent here, but just happened that way) To get slightly back on topic, I remember reading an article about a brewery (Coors maybe) that had their vessels shipped over from Japan, as they had one of the last remaining forges/something that could make the vessel in one piece or whatnot. It was quite the adventure to get it off the ship and transported overland.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:16
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I have a Timken Life ad from WW2 using Admiral Nimitz as a spokesman. The sad thing is it's in almost mint shape and I have it in a heap next to my coffee roaster. I really need to frame that drat thing because it's cool. I can scan it if you like.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:17
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slidebite posted:
I don't know if I'd call myself a bigot just because I've decided to buy things made in the USA.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:19
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movax posted:Not to derail too much, but I recently realized that the computers/peripherals my company makes are almost entirely produced in North America. At "worst" we have a fab in Toronto make our PCBs for us. No Chinese content whatsoever aside from passive components. Even the ICs are all US, straight from prototype or university fabs. We're a fabless semi so it's funny because our chips get sent from ROC (Taiwan Semi Manufacturing Co) to Shenzen for putting on boards. I sorta wonder what is involved with customs etc going between those two, or if they just kind of ignore the whole political sabre rattling stuff when business is involved. North American made PCBs are usually nicer though, all the Chinese built ones I've dealt with have been impossible to rework (because they are as cheap as possible to maximize margins - so it's not anything to do with the quality of their work) Armyman25 posted:I don't know if I'd call myself a bigot just because I've decided to buy things made in the USA. That's totally fine, but to try to paint Chinese production as being low-quality or worthless can often have an element of that in there. I'd prefer to buy stuff locally too to support the economy here too, if possible. Sadly, it often just isn't. Of course there are some limits, if the price is just so much higher for the domestic product it makes me pause and think about it more. priznat fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Feb 15, 2012 |
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Feb 15, 2012 05:21
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Slo-Tek posted:
Seeing that building IRL is something else, it is goddamn MASSIVE
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Feb 15, 2012 05:21
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movax posted:It's funny how far you have to go to make a product that's truly "PRC-free" (not the intent here, but just happened that way) It makes me wonder in 20 years where we'll be. India is coming along and only above China in some regards because of language issues IMHO. I think we're going to reach a tipping point around 2020-30 where the cost of living in China and India and wage demands will make manufacturing closer to home more attractive and almost make a renaissance in N.A. manufacturing become commonplace. Total hijack I know, but I find thought experiments like this interesting.  Sorry LW for the non-gun hijack.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:22
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Armyman25 posted:I don't know if I'd call myself a bigot just because I've decided to buy things made in the USA. However, I work hard for the  in my wallet too so if I can save $10 for the same thing, darn rights I'll consider it.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:25
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slidebite posted:I think you're more right than we would like to think. We in the west like to think of China as a land where they have 9 year old boys and girls handcuffed to a dirt floor factory making stuff. And that almost certainly still happens. Unfortunately, it also happens that their cutting edge is by and large our cutting edge and we cannot look down at them anymore and I think that scares the poo poo out of many of us. I already posted this in the AI thread so here it is again. Look at it from the angle of the entrepreneur or manager: If I wanted to make a bunch of terrible poo poo to sell to the absolute lowest bidder, and clearly there is money in this line of work or else why do people do it, where do I do it? You think I should build the factory in Switzerland and staff it with the UAW? A lot of terrible crap is made in China because everything is made in China, not because the Chinese are specially good at making crap. If you want something pretty high quality and are willing to pay a bit for it, you get iPhones. Otherwise you get what you pay for. It's not really any different than anywhere else. Maybe if more Americans made a living actually making things instead of selling houses to each other they would understand this.  The comparison to Japan is really terrible because Japan has been a huge industrial power since the late 1800s. The Japanese navy was a match for any Western country and sailed the largest aircraft carriers and battleships in the world, so I don't know why people are so shocked that a company like Toyota with literally centuries of history as a manufacturing firm can turn out a pretty good economy car. China from about the 1800s to about 30 years ago was in worse shape than Haiti and the Chinese head of state could barely afford to fly himself to the US for a state visit without bankrupting the treasury. It's really not a good comparison at all. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Feb 15, 2012 |
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Feb 15, 2012 05:27
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slidebite posted:It makes me wonder in 20 years where we'll be. India is coming along and only above China in some regards because of language issues IMHO. I think we're going to reach a tipping point around 2020-30 where the cost of living in China and India and wage demands will make manufacturing closer to home more attractive and almost make a renaissance in N.A. manufacturing become commonplace. Yeah, I think that too, perhaps when 3d printing gets well beyond just being able to make a crappy resin cup to put your pens in then anybody can manufacture anything anywhere. Who knows if this will become a reality, but at the very least you're right that wages will normalize across the board and the cost of shipping the goods (especially with scarce fuel) causes a shift in where things are made. Man the gov't would just poo poo themselves if you could print full on firearm parts that function!
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Feb 15, 2012 05:29
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Throatwarbler posted:
quote:China from about the 1800s to about 30 years ago was in worse shape than Haiti and the Chinese head of state could barely afford to fly himself to the US for a state visit without bankrupting the treasury. It's really not a good comparison at all. slidebite fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Feb 15, 2012 |
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Feb 15, 2012 05:32
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slidebite posted:Japan was viewed as a maker of trinkets and shiny poo poo to the west, so of course it was a surprise to them at the time. The more enlightened could see it coming a mile away sure, but not the rank and file of the time. 1992 isn't 30 years ago.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:39
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Duh. Me math good. It does slide it back somewhat, but I still think the Haiti is a stretch. Certainly not a powerhouse like today but it has been a mass manufacturer of goods for many decades.
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Feb 15, 2012 05:42
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slidebite posted:Duh. Me math good. It's not an exaggeration at all. China had been in a state of virtually non-stop civil war or foreign occupation from the 1860s to 1976. The anecdote is from the book Red Capitalism. When Deng Xiao Ping was to lead a delegation to the UN in 1974, they literally had to empty out all the vaults of all the banks in Beijing because the sum total of China's foreign exchange reserves amounted to $38,000. These are all good reasons why Chinese private sector companies to this day tend to be small and fly-by-night. Industrial "champion" companies that care about brand reputation or intellectual property only exist in places like Japan with stable political institutions and traditions of the rule of law. The Chinese won't be anywhere near the Japan of the 1970s for a long time.
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Feb 15, 2012 06:03
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I think that is a fair and reasoned observation and I believe you and your citation without even reading it. It is also my observation I have had tons of poo poo made in China in my house since I was a kid in 70s and absolutely nothing made in Haiti to my recollection. I also don't think I was unique in any stretch of the imagination. China has been a growing manufacturing powerhouse for many, many years and I've seen it in my career since the late 80s. I'm not saying China was exactly like Japan, far from it. My point was to the 90%+ of the populous of NA it was/is similar at a given point in time. Japan was viewed as a weak producer of nick nacks and consumer goods, even though the ignorance and powerhouse beneath was not known by most.
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Feb 15, 2012 06:20
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priznat posted:North American made PCBs are usually nicer though, all the Chinese built ones I've dealt with have been impossible to rework (because they are as cheap as possible to maximize margins - so it's not anything to do with the quality of their work) The quality is amazing, I can pick up a phone and get instantly connected to the engineers running the line and get answers to my questions, etc. They can do some very intricate and precise work, but boy does it cost money. I don't think it'd be practical for consumer stuff at all, but for low-volume high-margin industrial equipment, absolutely a-OK. The Japanese fab is old, but also very good at what they do too. slidebite posted:I was going ask if you're DoD or something. That is of course exceedingly rare. Not DoD, but we do get concerned that sending a design out to China or something will result it being cloned / copied / whatever as well. Uncle Sam doesn't care about us really because the Chinese would just laugh if some US diplomat brought up Chinese companies ripping US companies off. Most design-protection and similar comes from the components on the boards. bunnie had an excellent article a little while back on new ways to detect counterfeit chips (chips that make their way into Western military equipment as well). Of course, this isn't saying American production is infallible or anything. When I was still in the auto industry, some plants had no shortage of workers that were also terrible human beings. It was a loving wonder anything got done at all. Throatwarbler posted:It's not an exaggeration at all. China had been in a state of virtually non-stop civil war or foreign occupation from the 1860s to 1976. The anecdote is from the book Red Capitalism. When Deng Xiao Ping was to lead a delegation to the UN in 1974, they literally had to empty out all the vaults of all the banks in Beijing because the sum total of China's foreign exchange reserves amounted to $38,000.  Wow, had no idea that was ever the case. I will have to check that book out.
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Feb 15, 2012 06:47
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slidebite posted:It makes me wonder in 20 years where we'll be. India is coming along and only above China in some regards because of language issues IMHO. I think we're going to reach a tipping point around 2020-30 where the cost of living in China and India and wage demands will make manufacturing closer to home more attractive and almost make a renaissance in N.A. manufacturing become commonplace. When labor costs eventually rise in China and India, won't we just move our factories somewhere else with poor people (Africa or something I dunno) before coming back to NA?
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Feb 15, 2012 06:53
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There isn't enough people in Africa IMHO to make it a worthwhile thing to do in the short run.
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Feb 15, 2012 07:00
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Slamburger posted:When labor costs eventually rise in China and India, won't we just move our factories somewhere else with poor people (Africa or something I dunno) before coming back to NA? Well a couple of things. The cost of doing business is more than just labour, for one thing. Right now manufacturers are pretty reluctant to move from China to poorer India just because India's infrastructure for things like power and transport is terrible and they can't keep the lights on or the deliveries on time. Otherwise, they would have already moved there. The other thing is that when you say "labor costs eventually rise", what you are suggesting is that consumers in China become richer relative to Americans, and they'll demand more goods and services from places like the US. It will all play out in the relative values of the currencies. I'll give you a few examples. If you post in AI you'll notice that people generally get the feeling that Japanese cars were much better than American cars 30, 20, or maybe even 10 years ago, but today, people are increasingly feeling that American cars have "caught up" or otherwise reversed things, and are better than Japanese cars in many cases. It's a nice "Rocky" style narrative of how American manufacturing lost its way for a bit, but are now bouncing back, like all good American protagonists do. Except if you look at the relative values of the Yen and USD, it's not really that hard to figure out that 25 years ago a Dollar was worth 200 Yen and today a Dollar is worth 78 Yen. So given that both America and Japan, both 25 years ago and today, are rich, developed countries with reasonably educated workforces, is it really a surprise that the American car makers have managed to come back? All it took was for currency appreciation to double your competitor's costs and cut his profit on each car by half. A counter example is Britain. Remember when the British use to make cars? Well they're starting it up again with a vengeance after the Pound devalued by about 50% in 2008. Jaguar/Land Rover after being stuck pigs for decades is now rolling in profit and are actually building more plants in Britain to keep up with demand for British cars in China. Britain is already in a manufacturing renaissance.
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Feb 15, 2012 07:17
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slidebite posted:There isn't enough people in Africa IMHO to make it a worthwhile thing to do in the short run. You'd be surprised. Africa is doing a lot better than anyone expected. A large percentage of Mercedes C-class and BMW 3 series cars sold in North America are imported from South Africa, for example. I would bet stuff like that will get more and more common. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Feb 15, 2012 |
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Feb 15, 2012 07:19
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Throatwarbler posted:
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Feb 15, 2012 08:04
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about currency history
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High-end microchip production can't be done in China because of export controls on the photolithography equipment needed. In theory this is to keep the Chinese from building sophisticated military microchips for (for instance) ballistic missile guidance systems; you may recall some nonsense about PS3s being banned from export to China for that same reason. Add this to IP theft and you have most of why modern chips are made predominantly in the US, with increasing numbers in Southern Asia. Tying this in with the Cold War, my made with '60s tech warship had a significant amount of (solid state, thank God) electronics that were cabinets full of discrete components on daughtercards. Reportedly these were all handmade, and to be honest they were originally made fairly well, but discrete components fail over the decades (often by catching fire) and the repairs were supposed to be done by a shop that supposedly still employed the same workers as originally made them. Their hand-done refurb jobs were often terrible, with errors visually obvious and requiring field repair before we could use them. This was a bit of a continuing pattern, that any electronic work done by contractors in the past ten years or so was going to be assed up six ways from Sunday, completed late, paid for in full anyway, and that squids would be working long nights and weekends fixing it right. (Mechanical work was better.) This can be generalized further. I think Cyrano has posted this before, but American manufacturing superiority in the 2nd half of the 20th century was as much about all the other major industrial nations being bombed to rubble (sometimes repeatedly) as it was our can-do attitude and spirit. This did not keep our workforce unions from demanding higher wages, stricter work rules and better benefits even as their quality of work declined in relation to foreign competitors. Today I buy a bunch of industrial controls from American manufacturers and a depressing amount is broken-out-of-the-box garbage. Why should I pay top dollar for this over a Korean knockoff? China rose in manufacturing not just because of its infrastructure but also because of its educational system. You can say the country was as broke as Haiti 'till the '70s, but it's had solid engineering universities going back decades before that, even if it did tend to take its top students and imprison them or banish them to work farms. Even if the people on the manufacturing floor are recruited from the farmfields, any kind of modern manufacturing requires significant engineering staff. India also has the schools to supply engineers, but most African nations do not.
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Feb 15, 2012 08:16
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movax posted:The quality is amazing, I can pick up a phone and get instantly connected to the engineers running the line and get answers to my questions, etc. They can do some very intricate and precise work, but boy does it cost money. I don't think it'd be practical for consumer stuff at all, but for low-volume high-margin industrial equipment, absolutely a-OK. The Japanese fab is old, but also very good at what they do too. The thing about manufacturing expensive stuff, or parts for expensive stuff, to simplify it, is that it isn't magically cheaper to make raw materials in to finished things inside the borders of prc. The only real difference is the cost of labor. And this isn't dramatically lower. If you want to make cheap garbage, you can pay half a nickel, and that's why this sort of manufacturing is slowly leaving China as their currency gets stronger and workers demand better conditions. There was massive con pulled on America, about manufacturing costs being so0o0o0o00o0o high you guys, and how taxes are just CRaaaAAaaazzzZZzyyyy. In the end costs for the sort of things that were made in America are about 50% less to be made in china. And retail prices for these same goods haven't dropped at all, they've just become profit, and been distributed in the form of massive bonuses and dividends. So China was industrialized at a speed that dwarfed even the insane rate of USSR, given unknown trillions of dollars worth of technology, all so greedy motherfuckers could make big money for a few years, at the expense of the majority of their workforce, and the united states in general. It sort of mirrors w hat happened in the financial sector, where America was just looted for the benefit of a small set of people, for no good reason. So yea, china can make most stuff just as well as the united states, if they stop cutting corners, but they learned corner cutting from americans and taiwanese/hong kongers to begin with. not that that matters It really makes me envy Chinese people. Imagine having a government that actually works for the betterment of the state and people in general. it seems like some kind of crazy fantasy, I wonder what it would take for the united states to be like that.
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Feb 15, 2012 08:30
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WEREWAIF posted:It really makes me envy Chinese people. Imagine having a government that actually works for the betterment of the state and people in general. .... Uh, if that was a serious post....yeah. I'm far from some AMERICA gently caress YEAH LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT type guy, but if you truly believe what you said you have a deeply warped view of the relationship between the PRC government and the Chinese people. And I'm not just talking CHICOM CENSORSHIP GREAT FIREWALL type poo poo, either.
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Feb 15, 2012 09:15
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Chinese people will be as willing as anyone to point out problematic issues with their government. There's been an amazing climate change the past twenty years. Stuff that would land you in Disappearistan following the Tiananmen square massacre is now discussed in coffee shops. Just make sure you let them criticize their government before you do it, this is important. AIRPOWER （空权） edit:  See you over South China Sea, imperialist dog. (Square-ish air intakes are sexy). Force de Fappe fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Feb 15, 2012 |
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Feb 15, 2012 11:34
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Sjurygg posted:Chinese people will be as willing as anyone to point out problematic issues with their government. There's been an amazing climate change the past twenty years. Stuff that would land you in Disappearistan following the Tiananmen square massacre is now discussed in coffee shops. Just make sure you let them criticize their government before you do it, this is important. Any time. 
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Feb 15, 2012 11:50
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slidebite posted:I think we're going to reach a tipping point around 2020-30 where the cost of living in China and India and wage demands will make manufacturing closer to home more attractive and almost make a renaissance in N.A. manufacturing become commonplace. There are other places to go first. Some manufacturing's already starting to vacate China in favor of Bangladesh, because the labor's cheaper.
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Feb 15, 2012 16:09
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Feb 15, 2012 16:22
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iyaayas01 posted:.... I wonder if what he is saying is that he thinks that Chinese business and government interests often behave nationalistically, as opposed to strictly in the service of international capitalism. China working to build up their industry rather than sell it overseas to chase bonuses etc. Are powerful Chinese interests in any way "patriotic" in fact? I have no clue.
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