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Just on the topic of balance... I used to play WH40k a while ago and if a book was considered weak or under-powered they were pretty much hosed until their new book came out (which took half a decade for some races). Is WMH pretty much the same way? Are Cygnar players or whoever hosed until MkIII comes out or does Privateer Press release like balance updates or something?
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Feb 25, 2012 04:50
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fadam posted:Just on the topic of balance... Not at all. Warmahordes is about as balanced as a well done fighting game, some casters are really gimmicky but fun, others are good all around, some have high learning curves, others don't. etc.
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Feb 25, 2012 04:52
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fadam posted:Just on the topic of balance... Also every faction gets stuff every year.
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Feb 25, 2012 04:54
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fadam posted:Just on the topic of balance... Also, Cygnar is hardly what I would consider underpowered. Some people feel like their infantry isn't anything special, but they excel in areas that other factions don't. In this game, all factions are overpowered, which is a wonderful change of pace. Rather than try to completely level everyone to a vanilla median value, everyone stands out distinctly.
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Feb 25, 2012 05:05
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I came SO GODDAMN CLOSE with Terminus killing High Reclaimer tonight, but I'm totally blaming the dice on cheating me out at just the right moment. Rolled a total of 5 three times in a row with 3 dice when I needed 8s on Terminus' feat turn. The Menoth battle engine is pretty cool too. Killed Seether and a lot of Thralls.
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Feb 25, 2012 05:22
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fadam posted:Are Cygnar players or whoever hosed until MkIII comes out or does Privateer Press release like balance updates or something? See the pages in the early teens of the thread for wailing and gnashing of teeth on changes to Cygnaran infantry. I get a bit ticked off every time I look at the MkII Stormblades. Really, PP? A melee unit going from 'lovely' to 'merely bad' at range, at the expense of Fearless and a point of DEF? I need these guys stabbing things, not shooting them! :cryingswan: Okay, enough of that. They don't update rules for any one particular faction at a time the way GW does when they release a new codex, if that's what you mean. As mentioned, though, Privateer Press does regularly release new books and models that can potentially change the uses and tactics of existing models. New books often mean new classes of things and changes to existing models, too. The original rulebook, Prime, didn't have epic warcasters, unit attachments, cavalry, weapon attachments, crew-served weapons, theme lists/tiers, mercenary contracts, battle engines, or elite cadres. The biggest regular changes come from errata, though. New books often mean new errata that modify existing rules, generally for balance reasons. These changes can range from minor clarifications to encouraging (or eliminating) a catastrophically powerful tactic. See the dreaded Skarre Bomb for an example of an absurdly powerful tactic from MkI. After several books of errata and the MkII rules change, the tactic is still available, it's just nowhere near as devastating as it originally was.
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Feb 25, 2012 06:31
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Is there a resource of WM tournament winners for official tournaments and/or semi-official ones? If I could get the data of at least a few dozen tourneys I'd graph the poo poo out of it.
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Feb 25, 2012 07:14
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Warmahordes is probably the most balanced faction-based game that I've ever seen. There are some models that wind up weaker than others, though rarely to a large degree, but every faction has multiple strong options.
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Feb 25, 2012 07:17
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So when I went to the store to buy prime and the cryx book, I also nabbed the Cygnar book. I think I love their backstory way more. I can't decide between Haley, Stryker, Caine, or eCaine though! HALP! (No mercs I'm more of a fluff/fun army guy)
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Feb 25, 2012 07:30
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Kasonic posted:Is there a resource of WM tournament winners for official tournaments and/or semi-official ones? Unfortunately, there just isn't enough data available to make any significant statistical results. Most of the statistics that are performed are basically saying Faction X sucks because they didn't win a major tournament in the last year. There are not that many major tournaments! There are 11 factions, assuming that tournament wins are independent and identically distributed with 1/11 chance of Faction X winning a given tournament. In order to measure this, you would need to create a sample. God, I don't want to have to break out a stats book. If you had 100 major tournaments, you could make a significant claim about the distribution not being uniform if their wins were not between roughly 5%-15%. However, this is all based off false assumptions of independence and identical distributions. People choose factions for different reasons. Player skill is a random variable, and is NOT independent of army selection. You would need thousands upon thousands (if not millions) of individual game results fed into a complex model, like generalized linear models, to pull out any useful data. That data would have to be used to calculate things like player skill. Hopefully, you would get a lot of people that played more than one faction. This would help explain the interaction between army choice and player skill. As for the 'statistics' you find on ppforums, there is way to much confirmation bias. CRYX IS CLEARLY OP BECAUSE THEY WIN X MANY TOURNAMENT GAMES. LEGION IS OP THEY WON X HARDCORE TOURNIES IN THE LAST 2 YEARS. RETRIBUTION SUCK. MERCS SUCK. Stuff like that. Using the statistics on the forums if 2 legion players faced off in a tournament game, the results would not be 1 win and 1 loss. Sorry for the stats rant, but its a touchy issue for me!
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Feb 25, 2012 07:52
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fadam posted:Just on the topic of balance... Everyone has a few 'eh, these are lame, don't bother' units or a 'well this warcaster is only good for one very specific build, so unless you wanna do that don't get em', but no army is broken or the like. Cygnar especially is known as an all around solid army to use for whatever playstyle you enjoy, but really anyone can do anything with the right units. Basically not to be 'that guy' but as a former GW player, the difference is that Warmahordes was designed by people who wanted to make a good game and sell models, not people who want to sell models and make a game. There's no 'wrong' army to pick as long as you know the general strengths and weaknesses of them.
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Feb 25, 2012 08:42
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There are some really frustrating hard counters; I think these are a much bigger deal for new players or those playing in very limited circles of friends (or both!). I can't scratch Legion without a very specific list and it's taken me games and games and a caster switch to figure out how to deal with the Karn bullet when he's protected by a Cyclops Brute. MY GIRLFRIEND wails that my pathfinders essentially ignore her swamps (although we still have a pretty even W/L rate). And the Legion player that I never beat is terrified of Cryx and loathes anyone who plays them, even if they're brand new or just using models whose art they like (like my brother). IR SMART told me that the best advice he could give a new player was to be willing and eager to lose more or less every game, and that the best you can do is play as often as possible and get as familiar as you can with your own units. I think that's right. This game is best when you're willing to lose and learn--a side-effect of having balanced factions and a huge emphasis on tactics is that softer, newer players just lose a lot. When that happens, don't blame the models. (In 40k, it's probably the models' fault. Here, it isn't.)
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Feb 25, 2012 16:02
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I was playing some practice matches with a friend and we were having some problems with 2h throwing. I wanted to double check here, since I've read through the rule in the Hordes book about 6 times, and I can't for the life of me figure out which is what in reference to the terminology. Could someone simplify it- This is how I interpreted it: My Shadowhorn Heavy Warbeast threw a Hydra Heavy Warjack (1/2 Str + 2" Animus = 7") through a Light Griffon and stopped at the Phoenix. All except the thrower were knocked down, and took STR10 POW hits. (Two of which I think were unboostable) My friend got a little lovely at me when I said that was the rules, because he proceeded to lose Warjack after Warjack. Since we were learning I said I'd double check here anyhow. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 19:24
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The only stuff that gets knocked down is the model that got thrown, the model that stopped it's movement (if any), and any models that the thrown model overlaps at the end of it's movement (prior to reorganizing according to the rule of least disturbance). Slams knock down everything the target moves through, but throws don't.
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Feb 25, 2012 19:29
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So after a lot of talking and planning for our campaign ideas...my friends and I wound up constantly switching around and settling on entirely different armies. So now I'm trying my hand at Menoth! So, since this thread is just soaking in Menoth players, critique my list guys! Basically my general concept is for this to be a new crusade for Menoth, lead by the Harbinger and eventually joined by Vindictus or Severius himself. My campaign goals will be taking me through Cygnar and aimed up to Khador, most likely dealing with all manner of rear end in a top hat on the way so I wanted to be flexible while still able to handle my two 'main targets'. System: Warmachine Faction: Protectorate of Menoth Casters: 1/1 Points: 35/35 Harbinger of Menoth (*5pts) * Dervish (4pts) * Repenter (4pts) * Crusader (6pts) * Hierophant (2pts) Choir of Menoth (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts) Daughters of the Flame (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts) Exemplar Errants (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts) * Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard Bearer (2pts) Knight Exemplar Seneschal (3pts) Reclaimer (2pts) The Covenant of Menoth (2pts) Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
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Feb 25, 2012 19:36
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hobocrunch posted:I was playing some practice matches with a friend and we were having some problems with 2h throwing. I wanted to double check here, since I've read through the rule in the Hordes book about 6 times, and I can't for the life of me figure out which is what in reference to the terminology. Even with boosting/collateral damage, pow 10's probably arent ruining jacks, Im curious why your friend got mad. Was he upset because they got knocked down? Did you guys use the "shake" conditions rules corectly?
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Feb 25, 2012 19:42
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PaintVagrant posted:Even with boosting/collateral damage, pow 10's probably arent ruining jacks, Im curious why your friend got mad. Was he upset because they got knocked down? Did you guys use the "shake" conditions rules corectly? I'm not sure If I did this right either but charged* 2 Argus' with Combo Strike and boosted Damage on a Phoenix with Curse of Shadows (Mohsar -2 arm). Since they were auto hitting. He was using 1 focus to stand the Hydra and the Griffon up, with Shakedown. When I say mad- Uh I just meant displeased. Not the type of people to argue... 
hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 19:51
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If you are finding lists hard to deal with and that some odds are insurmountable you should just roll with Grim Angus. e: I'm not saying Grim is the hard counter to everything, but he's the kind of caster that doesn't give a gently caress about your poo poo and a couple of other factions have a similar guy.
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Feb 25, 2012 20:04
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Glitterbomber posted:System: Warmachine A couple of thoughts: First thing is that I would take more heavies. I'd take maybe a Vanquisher and a Reckoner or Templar instead of what you have listed. The Crusader is a cheap beatstick which is good, and Harby makes him faster, but that still puts him at a 9.5" threat range, which I'd say is average. If you take reach jacks such as the Reckoner or Templar, that makes their threat ranges go from average (10" and 9") to excellent at 12" and 11". Also don't forget that an Assault is part of a charge, meaning you can assault with a Reckoner, get the 2" from crusader's call and now you're charging 10" and shooting 12. I don't like taking Daughters without defensive buffs from either a caster or a solo like Rhupert. Sure they get a great threat range with Harby, but I don't see 1 unit being terribly useful, and I prefer a Vanquisher for clearing out single-wound infantry as opposed to Daughters. Maybe they'd work as Jammers, but I'd take 2 units for that. I don't like the Reclaimer in this list. Harby has 10 Focus, and granted she camps a fair bit of it, but even then you could max out 2 heavies on focus and still camp 4. I feel like we have a ton of 2 point solos that could go in this slot (2nd Vassal, Rhupert, Gorman di Wulfe to name a few) that I'd prefer. Probably Gorman with Harby just for the smoke cloud. I like the Knights Errant with her, I like the Heirophant, and the Seneschal can be fun. Remember that Martyrdom is 10" though, it's CMD not CTRL. Either way she's sick nasty, have fun playing her!
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Feb 25, 2012 20:09
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hobocrunch posted:I'm not sure If I did this right either but charged* 2 Argus' with Combo Strike and boosted Damage on a Phoenix with Curse of Shadows (Mohsar -2 arm). Since they were auto hitting. He was using 1 focus to stand the Hydra and the Griffon up, with Shakedown. Sounds like you were doing it right  Congrats on getting mileage out of the argus and shadowhorn, most circle players dont seem to have the imagination to get the most of them. I think they are both solid and have a role to play in some lists.The shadowhorn in particular I think is awesome. Too bad the model isnt as cool as the art in the circle book.
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Feb 25, 2012 20:19
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PaintVagrant posted:Sounds like you were doing it right He jumped a wall and a Chimera at the same time to get there. It was so bad rear end, I'll never leave my Shadowhorn out of my list ever. I had to the whole "I didn't mean to just kick your rear end, but I did" speech.
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Feb 25, 2012 20:32
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Yeah, WM/H really is well-balanced at its core when you get down to it. The change I mentioned for Stormblades is a difference of one point in two stats, and removal of an ability that rarely came into play at best. POW 12's can still kill casters. I just wish... Well, I wish a lot of things.dexefiend posted:Trying to set up a regression model without an asymptotic data set or well-defined variables is an exercise in futility! You are my hero as I bludgeon my way through econometrics.
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Feb 25, 2012 20:55
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Hey dudes, Ive got the unpainted stuff from my skorne that I want to get rid of too. Dont post here in the thread about it, Ive cluttered it up enough with chat about me selling poo poo. PM me or email at paint.vagrant@gmail.com I figured Id give you all first shot at it, these prices dont include shipping. Ideally Id like to sell multiple items at once: $65 Full Cetrati + Vorkesh and mk2 card for Vorkesh(primed white, gold trim is basecoated on some of them. I used golden fluid acrylic gold, so if you want to pay 4 extra bux Ill inlude the paint bottle with the cetrati) $80 Full Ferox + Tyrant Rhadeim (converted to have face masks and awesome lions manes, assembled and unprimed) $15 Tyrant Commander and Standard (primed white) $8 Epic Makeda (primed white and gold basecoated like cetratii) $8 Totem Hunter (primed black, gold basecoated) $10 Basilisk Drake (unassembled, no base) $5 Cyclops Savage (metal, converted to hold blade above head, no base) $7 Naaresh and mk2 card(I chopped his sword blades off, so right now hes just got flat "knuckle guards". Was planning to convert them, never got around to it) $10 Epic Hexeris and mk2 card(Started to convert him, replaced his spear blade and whatnot, but he still needs a right hand.) $12 Xerxis (assembled and pose changed to be more upright. Looks awesome) $10 Prime Makeda (assembled, primed white, and resculpted the topknot to hang down her side. Looks awesome) $7 Ancestral Guardian (primed black, gold basecoated) $10 Epic Morghoul (primed black, replaced his scenic base thingy with a desert rock pile hes ninja-ing on top of) $5 Bloodrunner master tormentor (primed black) also $7 Harlan Versch (unasemmbled, doesnt work for skorne) Heres a pic of e-Hexy, what the ferox look like, etc 
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Feb 25, 2012 20:57
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Wow, what an educating day it's been. Up until today, I've played maybe four Battle Box games as Cryx? Last week, my massive order came in so I got to play 2x 35 point games. The first one was Cryx v Cryx, Deneghra v Deneghra. I lost because I deployed poorly and my arc nodes were too far away from Denegrah which hosed me up pretty bad, and my opponent told me trenches were effectively impassable terrain so I couldn't climb out of them. He was running a Harrower and a Defiler and pretty much barbequed me before I could do anything to him, it was pretty bad. My second game was against Menoth, Deneghra v Harbinger. Unfortunately for me, I was pretty hard-countered as I was running a very infantry heavy list. In retrospect, I should've use Denegrha's feat when he used his (If I'm gunna take the charge, may as well mitigate as best as I can). Eiryss hosed my Seether up hard- gently caress that bitch in the face. Overall though I'd say I played much better and it was a ton of fun even though I lost both games. Can't wait to play more and learn my army better, gently caress I love this game.
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Feb 26, 2012 02:58
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Sab669 posted:Wow, what an educating day it's been. Up until today, I've played maybe four Battle Box games as Cryx? Last week, my massive order came in so I got to play 2x 35 point games. All I got to do today was buy a Cygnar Heavy 'jack box, some magnets, and 3 issues of old No Quarters. My FLGS only plays on Monday nights. Heh.
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Feb 26, 2012 03:01
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PaintVagrant posted:
How the gently caress did you drill out Hexy's hand for that spear. That looks horribly fiddly. Your conversions are always really nice looking. You have a way of just adding detail that makes the straight out of the box stuff look better, but without really altering so much that people would notice without seeing the stock model next to it. Good job dude.
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Feb 26, 2012 03:52
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Sab669 posted:Wow, what an educating day it's been. Up until today, I've played maybe four Battle Box games as Cryx? Last week, my massive order came in so I got to play 2x 35 point games. You feat would prevent him from charging at all, and with speed 3 unless he's right up in your grill advancing isn't going to get him anywhere either.
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Feb 26, 2012 04:16
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Flipswitch posted:Hot Rod Warjacks? we be onto something here. It's pretty obvious which choice is correct here. 
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Feb 26, 2012 05:00
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Stupid question but I want to be sure: Two large based models are an inch apart but have reach (in this case, Terminus and a Warpwolf Stalker) and there are mechanithralls between them, base to base. The two big guys still have LOS to eachother due to volume, right?
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Feb 26, 2012 06:42
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Yep. Now, if you had a helljack in-between them that's a different story. 
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Feb 26, 2012 06:45
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crime fighting hog posted:Stupid question but I want to be sure: Two large based models are an inch apart but have reach (in this case, Terminus and a Warpwolf Stalker) and there are mechanithralls between them, base to base. The two big guys still have LOS to eachother due to volume, right? Volume doesn't factor into it. They have LOS because small-based models don't block LOS to larger-based models.
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Feb 26, 2012 06:56
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SirJoeKCB posted:Volume doesn't factor into it. They have LOS because small-based models don't block LOS to larger-based models. Yeah that too. Terminus died to the combined efforts of a Stalker and Feral chewing his poo poo apart after I botched all my attacks against said Stalker. Big T can't catch a break when I play like a goddamn retard!
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Feb 26, 2012 07:00
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Are there any plastic warjacks that I can get on the cheap? I don't play the game at all but if I could (without blowing $30 per model), I'd really like to use warjacks in my Warhammer army.
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Feb 26, 2012 07:58
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crime fighting hog posted:Yeah that too. I feel your pain, I hosed-up twice today and ended up losing eGaspy to eButcher's feat-fueled Doomreavers by like an inch and then lost my next game with him due to scenario. Business Gorillas posted:Are there any plastic warjacks that I can get on the cheap? I don't play the game at all but if I could (without blowing $30 per model), I'd really like to use warjacks in my Warhammer army. The Plastic jacks from the new (Menoth vs Khador) two player kit go for like 12-15 bucks on ebay.
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Feb 26, 2012 08:37
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Sab669 posted:and my opponent told me trenches were effectively impassable terrain so I couldn't climb out of them. I am now terrified of trenches... Can someone explain this to me?
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Feb 26, 2012 10:06
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Exmond posted:I am now terrified of trenches... Can someone explain this to me? Well, the second guy I played against we just did it as open terrain. I would've run it as difficult terrain to climb in / out of, but I dunno. I think the first guy I played against was try-harding and didn't want to lose to a new player, and he was running a Harrower and counter-deployed pretty hard. I think he just wanted to lock me down in the trench and shoot me to bits (which he did)
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Feb 26, 2012 16:45
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Trenches being impassable terrain is definitely not in the rules, so you'd have to both agree that you wanted to run them that way, if you did. As far as I can see the only effect that's actually in the rules relates to protection from blast damage. I could see arguing for a movement penalty to cross a trench but impassable is a bit much.
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Feb 26, 2012 17:13
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Your opponent said it was impassable terrain that you could get into, but couldnt get out of...what a douche. They arent fuckin quicksand templates.
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Feb 26, 2012 17:59
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Perhaps the official interpretation of a 'trench' is closer to the concept of a ditch just deep enough to take cover in if you need to, something you could jump over if you had to, and not so much the reinforced eight-foot-deep fortifications of WWI.
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Feb 26, 2012 18:02
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Pops posted:Perhaps the official interpretation of a 'trench' is closer to the concept of a ditch just deep enough to take cover in if you need to, something you could jump over if you had to, and not so much the reinforced eight-foot-deep fortifications of WWI. Pretty much. You can still draw LoS to anyone in a trench, so they couldn't really be any more than half that deep.
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Feb 26, 2012 18:15
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