|
whowhatwhere posted:That is to say, it's better to have a female character who is just awesome in a world which encourages gender equality than it is to have a (possibly extant) background critique of sexism in the fantasy genre along with portrayals of women which can be taken as validating those same sexist ideals (e.g. Cersei critiques the system, but ends up providing evidence in favor of the notion that women are too irrational, too unstable and too foolish to be trusted in anything).
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 20:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 15:32 |
|
|
Joramun posted:Cersei is irrational, unstable and foolish because she suffers from psychosis, not because she's a woman. Sure, but given the standards of the genre it seems to reinforce that idea. Then there's Catelyn (MY CHILDREN  ) and Sansa (I'm just a rape object  ) and on and on. Any of them could be excused, but they're arguable either way and the sheer preponderance of them can still end up reinforcing those assumptions for people who already expect/believe them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 20:42
|
|
|
Looking for feminism in fantasy/sci-fi is probably a waste of time, generally speaking. Dune, maybe? Regardless, all of us here hate Gurm, and I didn't give him any money for ADWD.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 20:46
|
|
|
whowhatwhere posted:Sure, but given the standards of the genre it seems to reinforce that idea.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 20:47
|
|
|
Factor_VIII posted:I'd say that the Queen of Thorns is one of the most intelligent and politically adept characters in the books. I wouldn't say she's good (then again few character are) but she isn't stupid. Yes! Olenna for the win. She's also much more cunning than her stupid son. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 21:21
|
|
|
whowhatwhere posted:I think the argument against liking these books from the perspective of that blog is that: I'd argue that there's ultimately a threshold whereupon the pathos gained from portraying the flaws, mitigated by counter-exmaples within the cast, are a net good in terms of portraying women realistically as a subset of human beings. That argument completely ignores confirmation bias on the part of the reader though, both in terms of people looking for sexism and people looking to affirm their own sexist tendencies (as well as my own view that it's not sexist). Even so, while I understand and agree that there are racial and gender biases in the media--and especially genre media--I don't think ASoIaF is the best example to pick against it just because it's the most high-profile and Sansa/Catelyn/Cersei hate is a running joke in the fandom. It ultimately has counter-examples of both genders and while it is definitely a male perspective I didn't think it really crossed a line into "sexism"-ville until GRRM had Cersei start up a lesbian dom. relationship for seemingly no loving reason and even then there are so many other incidents that point towards a fair--albeit not particularly progressive--treatment of women. The show definitely had issues its first season by forcing naked titties on-screen during exposition dumps, but hopefully that'll be muted immensely now that the story of ACoK is interesting enough to compel the audience (and gently caress the newbies, Season One is out on Blu-Ray scrubs). mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Feb 27, 2012 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 21:54
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:I'd argue that there's ultimately a threshold whereupon the pathos gained from portraying the flaws, mitigated by counter-exmaples within... Jesus Christ. Not this stupid loving crap again. I weep for what was once the bad thread. Less pathos, more rape and lemoncakes please. el_brio fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Feb 27, 2012 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 22:42
|
|
|
el_brio posted:Jesus Christ. Not this stupid loving crap again. I weep for what was once the bad thread. Less pathos, more rape and lemoncakes please.  mind the walrus posted:I'd argue that there's ultimately a threshold whereupon the pathos gained from portraying the flaws, mitigated by counter-exmaples within the cast, are a net good in terms of portraying women realistically as a subset of human beings. That argument completely ignores confirmation bias on the part of the reader though, both in terms of people looking for sexism and people looking to affirm their own sexist tendencies (as well as my own view that it's not sexist). Gurm's portrayal of women is pretty loving sexist, whether he intended it to be or not (probably not, since I no longer think he ever had any idea what he was doing with ASOIAF). At best you have tomboyish women who still have very little agency. The question is how much any one person really gives a poo poo. People are going to interpret things like this to fit whatever view they take, and criticizing Gurm for it is
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:12
|
|
|
el_brio posted:Jesus Christ. Not this stupid loving crap again. I weep for what was once the bad thread. Less pathos, more rape and lemoncakes please. Words are wind, nuncle. Did I do it right?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:15
|
|
|
IRQ posted:Gurm's portrayal of women is pretty loving sexist, whether he intended it to be or not (probably not, since I no longer think he ever had any idea what he was doing with ASOIAF). At best you have tomboyish women who still have very little agency.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:29
|
|
|
Factor_VIII posted:ASOIAF might actually have more equality than real medieval Europe. Were there ever female knights a la Brienne, Warrior Princess? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:31
|
|
|
There is nothing inherently sexist about writing a sexist setting. It's all in how you handle the individual characters within it. GURM doesn't do the worst job ever (sup Gor) but he's not particularly great at it either.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:31
|
|
|
Joramun posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica too. Factor_VIII posted:I guess it would be somewhat odd to have a pseudo-medieval setting with modern ethical standards, such as women having equal rights with men. The political organization and religion of the setting are reasonably close to medieval Europe despite having some differences. ASOIAF might actually have more equality than real medieval Europe. Were there ever female knights a la Brienne, Warrior Princess? Yeah, which is why I'm not taking any of this very seriously. There's only so much you can ask for out of genre fiction, particularly if it's set in something resembling a historically accurate setting. That said, when Gurm tries to create strong female characters (and I think he really was trying to) he writes them in a very sexist manner.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:39
|
|
|
Joramun posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc IRQ posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:42
|
|
|
Why didn't Jon tell Bowen Marsh about his loan with the Iron Bank? Starving seems of greater concern than monetary debt. I don't know if this sets up something, or is merely a bit of dialogue that irks me. I'd like wild speculation regardless though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:52
|
|
|
How many times has lame issue popped up in this forum over the years? Not treading any new ground at all here. If you guys want to have a good group cry over the GRRMs treatment of women/midgets/dark skinned people etc. head over to the TVIV thread and menstruate your brains out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2012 23:58
|
|
|
el_brio posted:How many times has lame issue popped up in this forum over the years? Not treading any new ground at all here. If you guys want to have a good group cry over the GRRMs treatment of women/midgets/dark skinned people etc. head over to the TVIV thread and menstruate your brains out. It's not like The Bad Thread hasn't been treading the same ground for about 10 years now or anything.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:00
|
|
|
IRQ posted:It's not like The Bad Thread hasn't been treading the same ground for about 10 years now or anything. On that note my sister recently made the period style lemoncakes off Inn at the Crossroads. They were ok, but I'm not really into pastries. Also, rape. No incest.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:10
|
|
|
el_brio posted:How many times has lame issue popped up in this forum over the years? Not treading any new ground at all here. If you guys want to have a good group cry over the GRRMs treatment of women/midgets/dark skinned people etc. head over to the TVIV thread and menstruate your brains out. Ha ha those wacky women menstruating everywhere and crying about how they're treated, I wish this whole 'feminism' fad would just go away
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:17
|
|
|
el_brio posted:How many times has lame issue popped up in this forum over the years? Not treading any new ground at all here. If you guys want to have a good group cry over the GRRMs treatment of women/midgets/dark skinned people etc. head over to the TVIV thread and menstruate your brains out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:34
|
|
|
el_brio posted:How many times has lame issue popped up in this forum over the years? Not treading any new ground at all here. If you guys want to have a good group cry over the GRRMs treatment of women/midgets/dark skinned people etc. head over to the TVIV thread and menstruate your brains out. el_brio posted:Finally registered after years of lurking (mostly in this thread). I was tempted to register when GRRM got poop-dick a while back. I missed out on that fun. Anyway, rape, lemon cakes, breastplate nipples and nuncles to you all. Absolute fucker.  You registered to post in this thread and after spouting a series of memes so as to be perceived as the cool new kid, you bitch about the thread's content?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:42
|
|
|
Factor_VIII posted:I guess it would be somewhat odd to have a pseudo-medieval setting with modern ethical standards, such as women having equal rights with men. The political organization and religion of the setting are reasonably close to medieval Europe despite having some differences. This is actually something that sort of bothers me sometimes. I started the Wheel of Time series awhile ago, and I actually found it slightly jarring how everywhere in the book it would talk about how the women were super headstrong and actually in control of whatever Rand's hometown was called. It was little things like that and the fact that everyone had modern standards of dental hygiene (but they didn't have toothbrushes, so they just brushed their teeth with twigs!) that sort of took me out of the story a little bit. I'm not saying I need all of the women to be subject to the men or anything, because that's stupid. But having a pseudo-medieval society and really, really emphasizing that it's as progressive our own in those sorts of ways does just read a little strangely, to me at least. It doesn't ruin the story or anything, it's just a little odd.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:45
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Ha ha those wacky women menstruating everywhere and crying about how they're treated, I wish this whole 'feminism' fad would just go away Nothing gives feminism a big old kick in the ovaries harder than war though. See all the progressive poo poo leading up to WWII and all of a sudden women are set back about 50 years.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:57
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Ha ha those wacky women menstruating everywhere Well you have to admit it is kind of a bitch washing all that blood out of the curtains all the time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 00:59
|
|
|
I know when the women in my life are on the rag, they have to confine themselves to a shed on the outskirts of town, lest their fountains of menstrual blood coat every surface like a Kill Bill fight scene or a GWAR set. Women. Heh. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 01:12
|
|
|
Scuzzywuffit posted:This is actually something that sort of bothers me sometimes. I started the Wheel of Time series awhile ago, and I actually found it slightly jarring how everywhere in the book it would talk about how the women were super headstrong and actually in control of whatever Rand's hometown was called. It was little things like that and the fact that everyone had modern standards of dental hygiene (but they didn't have toothbrushes, so they just brushed their teeth with twigs!) that sort of took me out of the story a little bit. Writing the overwhelming majority of women as complete jerks (and preeeeeetty drat often as closet lesbians [and once as a serial rapist... which somehow is handled in a joking way]) does not a good female character make. I'd say RJ was even worse at ladies than Gurm, but he was also pretty horrible at men, and that series has a much more traditional fantasy feel so I guess it kind of washes out for the most part. There's a lot of weird poo poo in those books, and this genre. But like I said earlier, you're not likely to find much in the way of feminism in fantasy. Even the female writers I've read have been kind of lousy about it (not to mention writing men). It's just a general reality of who writes this sort of fiction.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 01:22
|
|
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I know when the women in my life are on the rag, they have to confine themselves to a shed on the outskirts of town, lest their fountains of menstrual blood coat every surface like a Kill Bill fight scene or a GWAR set. The Red Wedding was only called that because Cat's Aunt Flo was in attendance.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 01:25
|
|
|
The true explanation for ASOIAF's plot: Every time she had to make a snap decision, Catelyn was PMSing hardcore. And el_brio: many of our most well-established WILD CARDS are women, so you basically just called down the Danys upon your head. It's ok though, for you are but a boy, and know little of the ways of rape.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 02:37
|
|
|
whowhatwhere posted:And el_brio: many of our most well-established WILD CARDS are women To my eternal amazement. Can't wait to see you, Norris!
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 02:56
|
|
|
It is known. You wildcards weren't lying about that blog. What the Christ indeed.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 02:57
|
|
|
Is the plan to capture Kylaer a go?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 02:58
|
|
|
my cat is norris posted:Is the plan to capture Kylaer a go? Are you paying for gas?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:00
|
|
|
What is a Nuncle anyways?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:00
|
|
|
Elindale posted:What is a Nuncle anyways?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:02
|
|
|
Elindale posted:What is a Nuncle anyways? It's either a corruption of "mine uncle" or what happens when an ingrown nail spreads to your nipple.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:03
|
|
|
So all this talk about women and blood and not one mention of Melisandre? For shame. She steals men's life essence through sex, gives birth to shadow monsters, and is basically faking it til she makes it. She is the best female.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:03
|
|
|
Factor_VIII posted:Chiefly dialect: uncle. I.e. GRRM trying to make his work sound more olde Englishe. Well! Between that and nightsoil I don't know what to think.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:07
|
|
|
Dazerbeams posted:So all this talk about women and blood and not one mention of Melisandre? For shame. She steals men's life essence through sex, gives birth to shadow monsters, and is basically faking it til she makes it. She is the best female.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:12
|
|
|
She's less captivating as anything other than a villain playing the long game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 15:32 |
|
|
She is playing the long game...just not her long game. Really though, there are only three awesome villains in the series: Littlefinger, Varys and Olenna Tyrell. Until GRRM realizes women can't be awesome and makes her a sufferer of dementia who doesn't know what she's doing, of course.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2012 03:18
|
|