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Johnny Law posted:I was under the impression that Aleph One runs at exactly 30 FPS. The game state and animations are at 30Hz (from the original Marathon design), and although it would be nice to allow player view to change at a higher framerate I don't believe that the Aleph One hackers have ever tackled that. It would be incredibly difficult. Pretty much every aspect of the game's mechanics that involves timing is based on 1/30th of a second increments. I'm not the Aleph One programmer, so I'm not exactly sure why the FPS cap couldn't be doubled to 60 FPS, but I'm pretty sure it would break the game and that's why it hasn't been done. It's not laziness because the programmers have done some pretty complex and time-consuming stuff.
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Feb 22, 2012 15:26
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closeted republican posted:I think it's supposed to be a throwback to the Doom pistol, which was a right hand gun held by the left hand. When it's fired, it goes to the center of the screen, like where the Doom pistol is on the screen. This reminds me of the horribleness of the gun models in Counter-strike. The modeler/animator thought that the really cool part of a gun model is the right side where the shell casings fly out, so he modeled all the guns correctly and then forced everyone to be left handed. When they finally made right handed models available to players, they just mirrored the models, resulting in a bunch of left handed weapons held in the right hand. Look at any CS 1.6 video and you'll see a bunch of shell casings flying dangerously into your face, regardless of which side the weapon is on.
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Feb 22, 2012 15:45
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RyokoTK posted:It would be incredibly difficult. Pretty much every aspect of the game's mechanics that involves timing is based on 1/30th of a second increments. I'm not the Aleph One programmer, so I'm not exactly sure why the FPS cap couldn't be doubled to 60 FPS, but I'm pretty sure it would break the game and that's why it hasn't been done. Doom is based on a 1/35 second game timing but there's still source ports for it that handle rendering at other framerates. And 35 fps doesn't even multiply nicely into most monitor refresh rates.
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Feb 22, 2012 19:43
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You'd have to ask the devs, then. I'm not sure.
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Feb 22, 2012 20:48
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RyokoTK posted:It's not laziness because the programmers have done some pretty complex and time-consuming stuff. Considering that A1 has been around for a decade at this point and the renderer is still a half-assed clusterfuck that recreates the original trapezoid-based 2.5D renderer using the openGL API, and consequently can't even handle looking up and down the way, say, gzDoom or EDuke32 can, "laziness" would be my first guess, personally. And decoupling internal game timing from rendering framerate is trivial if your game is not already a massive clusterfuck internally (see above).
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Feb 22, 2012 23:58
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RyokoTK posted:You'd have to ask the devs, then. I'm not sure. Someone asked the devs at their forums and this is what one of them said: quote:The FPS is still locked at 30. Since the world (including animations) isn't updated any more often than that, there wouldn't be anything extra to see if we rendered more FPS! I'm not quite sure what "seeing more" has to do with FPS.
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Feb 23, 2012 01:34
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ToxicFrog posted:Considering that A1 has been around for a decade at this point and the renderer is still a half-assed clusterfuck that recreates the original trapezoid-based 2.5D renderer using the openGL API, and consequently can't even handle looking up and down the way, say, gzDoom or EDuke32 can, "laziness" would be my first guess, personally. The source material actually is a massive clusterfuck. Bungie wasn't exactly the masters of programming in the 90s. And while I'm not going to say that they aren't ultimately lazy, currently there's only two programmers really doing any work on the program and one of them chose to spend more time working on more modernized editors and utilities than the application. So I guess it may be partially laziness and partially a difference in priorities. There was a lot more clamor for a map editor that didn't require Classic Mac to run, so the "lead" programmer decided to drop everything and code one more or less from the ground up. The source code for Forge was never released because Bungie lost it. quote:I'm not quite sure what "seeing more" has to do with FPS. Well I guess the question posed was, "why don't you increase the FPS cap," and the answer was because the whole world only updates 30 times per second anyway, so operating at 60 FPS wouldn't do anything but show duplicate frames. Apparently he chose not to answer the implied question, i.e. "why don't you increase the updates per second." Like I mentioned above, though, it's not exactly like John Carmack worked on the Marathon 2 engine. As far as I understand it, the Bungie code is a horrible mess. Anyway, bear in mind that the Marathon community is only a small fraction the size of the Doom community, so there's many fewer programmers that can contribute to the project, and even a smaller pool of people for them to bounce ideas off of and get help on. But A1 has taken a... slight step ahead of the straightforward 2.5D rendering.  I guess it's not a big deal compared to Doom source ports, which have had better "true" 3d rendering for several years, but it is to me, drat it.
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Feb 23, 2012 05:01
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RyokoTK posted:The source material actually is a massive clusterfuck. Bungie wasn't exactly the masters of programming in the 90s. And while I'm not going to say that they aren't ultimately lazy, currently there's only two programmers really doing any work on the program and one of them chose to spend more time working on more modernized editors and utilities than the application. I have actually offered to help in the past. The response to "hey how about some actual 3d rendering" was "feel free to fork A1 if you want it that much, but we will never accept a patch adding this feature". If this is typical it might explain why there's only two programmers working on it. quote:Well I guess the question posed was, "why don't you increase the FPS cap," and the answer was because the whole world only updates 30 times per second anyway, so operating at 60 FPS wouldn't do anything but show duplicate frames. Apparently he chose not to answer the implied question, i.e. "why don't you increase the updates per second." At a guess, because increasing the updates per second would cause everything to move and animate at twice normal speed, since all the game logic is timed by ticks rather than by seconds. Of course, you could change it to time by seconds instead; animations and everything would still run at 30fps, but I guess you'd get slightly smoother player and projectile movement? quote:Oh hell yes. I think I've still got a few Marathon TCs I haven't finished.
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Feb 23, 2012 05:12
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ToxicFrog posted:At a guess, because increasing the updates per second would cause everything to move and animate at twice normal speed, since all the game logic is timed by ticks rather than by seconds. Well, for example, zDoom runs at about 800 FPS on my computer yet the game logic is still tied to 1/35 of a second. The extra FPS is noticeable since it's tied to mouse control - I can turn on vsync and bring it down to 60 FPS but then the mouse feels sluggish.
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Feb 23, 2012 05:26
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ToxicFrog posted:I have actually offered to help in the past. The response to "hey how about some actual 3d rendering" was "feel free to fork A1 if you want it that much, but we will never accept a patch adding this feature". When did you ask this? I can't imagine that the devs right now (Treellama and Hopper) being that exclusive about it, that they'd never accept a patch allowing for more improved 3d rendering. Right now, OpenGL Shader does allow you to look all the way up and down if you have the in-game physics unlock the vertical quote:At a guess, because increasing the updates per second would cause everything to move and animate at twice normal speed, since all the game logic is timed by ticks rather than by seconds. Yes, I know. And that's the implied question that I was... er, implying: why not change the definition of a tick from 1/30th to 1/60th? That is a pretty tremendous undertaking, given you're essentially redefining everything about the game, and I think calling it "laziness" isn't exactly fair. quote:Oh hell yes. I think I've still got a few Marathon TCs I haven't finished. The picture is from Marathon: Phoenix, which I just finished the final version of a couple weeks ago. (Gotta pimp it out, man.)
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Feb 23, 2012 05:38
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RyokoTK posted:Right now, OpenGL Shader does allow you to look all the way up and down if you have the in-game physics unlock the vertical ...I don't think I do. do you have a screenshot?
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Feb 23, 2012 07:26
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ToxicFrog posted:...I don't think I do. do you have a screenshot?  The game doesn't render anything that you can't see, but it bases what you can see solely by your (x,y) angle. This was before Shader added the z-axis vanishing point. By using Classic (or Software), this is what you would see if you were using the same physics at the same place:  If you look up in Reality, you can see certain things that are behind (and above) you. But notice that yellow texture on the left side of both screenshots -- in Classic, even if I'm looking up, I can't see any information to the left of it, so it doesn't render it. But in Shader, I should be able to see it -- it's just not rendered. Note that I edited the physics model to allow this. Basically all single player maps have their own physics models merged into them, and (rightly) nobody messes with this stuff so you would never see this effect unless you went out of your way to find it. Edit: I misspoke earlier when I said Shader allows you to look all the way up and down. It was possible in Classic, too, but the distortion was nauseating and horrible. I'm not looking nearly as far up in the second pic as I am in the first, but you can tell some crazy crap is going on already. RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Feb 23, 2012 |
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Feb 23, 2012 07:36
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Roobanguy posted:So that Half-Life mod, Cry of Fear, is supposed to come out today. Some people who donated have a multiplayer stream going right now if your interested in it. http://www.twitch.tv/snbplay I'm about two hours into Cry of Fear now. If you ever wanted a first person Silent Hill this is probably it. It has the bad combat, clunky inventory system (go into your inventory, click use/equip, then click on the key to try it), really disturbing enemies (dead children wrapped in garbage bags and the baby from Eraserhead), and it even has the endlessly trying locked apartment doors straight out of SH2. I have to admit it's gotten some jumps out of me. This is a lights off, headphones on type of game. I also like the dual wielding. Basically if you have you knife set to 1 and your flashlight set to 2, you can hit 1 and 2 at the same time to hold both. I'd also like to warn anyone who first starts playing it that it uses the realistic clips. Ammo won't transfer over to a new magazine so go easy on the reloading.
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Feb 23, 2012 07:51
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Flubby posted:I'm about two hours into Cry of Fear now. If you ever wanted a first person Silent Hill this is probably it. It has the bad combat, clunky inventory system (go into your inventory, click use/equip, then click on the key to try it), really disturbing enemies (dead children wrapped in garbage bags and the baby from Eraserhead), and it even has the endlessly trying locked apartment doors straight out of SH2. I have to admit it's gotten some jumps out of me. This is a lights off, headphones on type of game. I also like the dual wielding. Basically if you have you knife set to 1 and your flashlight set to 2, you can hit 1 and 2 at the same time to hold both. I'd also like to warn anyone who first starts playing it that it uses the realistic clips. Ammo won't transfer over to a new magazine so go easy on the reloading. It also has inventory management. You can carry up to 6 things and a large weapon, like a shotgun. From one of the gameplay videos I saw a few months ago, you lose 3 inventory spaces at one point though. No storage box either, but syringes stack and bullets don't take up space.
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Feb 23, 2012 08:19
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So I looked back to Feb 10th when Dark Forces went on sale. The game runs great through DOS Box... except whenever Dark Forces has to do a full screen fade. Full screen fade causes it to run at about 1fps until the fade is done. This wouldn't be a problem except that the game fades to green every time you're shot, and fades to blue every time you pick up an item. There are a lot of items in this game. I tried unplugging my second monitor to see if that would fix it (DF under DOS Box fades both screens, hilarious) but that didn't solve the problem. Any other ideas?
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Feb 27, 2012 23:15
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Roobanguy posted:It also has inventory management. You can carry up to 6 things and a large weapon, like a shotgun. From one of the gameplay videos I saw a few months ago, you lose 3 inventory spaces at one point though. No storage box either, but syringes stack and bullets don't take up space. Played through the Co-op campaign twice; yesterday for the first time and again today with 3 people instead of two. It was fun the first time through when we didn't know what to expect but on the second playthrough it become obvious that apart from not being able to respawn and having to be brought back to life it doesn't really do anything new. The ammo conservation is annoying meaning you have to die and hope that level gives you a gun if you want to beat some areas, and other levels are only beatable if you run through it. The most annoying thing by far is that they added a sub-machine gun that only donators can use; this isn't really too bad except that it still shows up for non-donators and when you have ZERO ammo for everything else and the devs have put in guns for people who've given money it feels like a slap in the face. They should of just let us use the gun and given a gold skin for it or something like Sven Co-op does for donators, that would of been much better. It's still cool that they added it though and took the time to make it more than just a co-op run through the SP campaign (You do play through it backwards but things are pretty different and it has it's own ending as well) Jblade fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Feb 27, 2012 |
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Feb 27, 2012 23:56
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This probably isn't the best place to put it, but since a lot of people are Doom fans, here are some DOOM 4 screens: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464809 Maybe Id will realize how popular Brutal Doom is and make the game insane out of the box.
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Feb 28, 2012 20:03
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Is it bad that the first thing I thought when I saw those screens is of Legendary: The Box?
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Feb 28, 2012 20:09
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Yodzilla posted:Is it bad that the first thing I thought when I saw those screens is of Legendary: The Box? Yes, it is bad. It's also a very accurate statement, looking at this trailer.
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Feb 28, 2012 20:11
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Unfinished, unreleased prototype looks unfinished. Seems a little unfair to judge a project based on this alone, especially given there's no indication of how old the screens are.
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Feb 28, 2012 20:23
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RyokoTK posted:Like I mentioned above, though, it's not exactly like John Carmack worked on the Marathon 2 engine. As far as I understand it, the Bungie code is a horrible mess. So is the Doom source code. It has all sorts of hacks, bugs, and hard coded limits in it. If Doom and Duke3D can have ports running in full 3D at 60+ FPS, why can't Aleph One (other than laziness)?
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Feb 28, 2012 20:38
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emoticon posted:So is the Doom source code. It has all sorts of hacks, bugs, and hard coded limits in it. If Doom and Duke3D can have ports running in full 3D at 60+ FPS, why can't Aleph One (other than laziness)?
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Feb 28, 2012 20:41
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It's hard to accuse an open-source project that people work on for free of being lazy. If there were more interest in Marathon, A1 would be further along. That's all there is to it.
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Feb 28, 2012 20:57
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Are those Doom 4 screenshots for real? It looks like it could be the forbidden lovechild of Half-Life 2 and Fallout 3 
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Feb 28, 2012 21:02
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They're probably real but they also might be real old and just test renders or who knows what.
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Feb 28, 2012 21:03
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That's... a lot of waist-high cover, and closed in areas. Gross.
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Feb 28, 2012 21:42
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Yodzilla posted:They're probably real but they also might be real old and just test renders or who knows what. I don't care about anything that looks even remotely non-good in those screenshot. It's HELL. ON. EARTH. 
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Feb 28, 2012 21:47
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But the "cities" were the worst levels in Doom 2. 
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Feb 28, 2012 21:57
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emoticon posted:So is the Doom source code. It has all sorts of hacks, bugs, and hard coded limits in it. If Doom and Duke3D can have ports running in full 3D at 60+ FPS, why can't Aleph One (other than laziness)? I'd agree that it was laziness if I had paid money for the game, but dude, it's a hobby. They have lives and real jobs and responsibilities. It's hard to drum up the amount of time and commitment necessary to do major projects for these spergy loser games from the 1990s.
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Feb 29, 2012 00:32
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I'm of mixed feelings regarding those leaked "Doom 4" shots, if indeed that's what they are. The parts that really do look like a generic Half-Life 2, Fallout, or Rage city are pretty disappointing, but here and there are some promising sights like huge crevices in the earth, evil orange glows, and especially those swarms of flying objects in one or two of the shots--it's impossible to say for sure what they are but they make me think of the dark blobby soul-things that were shooting around in parts of Doom 3's hell, and that would be awesome. If they go over the blandly postapocalyptic areas and add approximately 100% more fleshy overgrowth and demonic rebuilding with wood and marble, I'll be sold. Also, as some have noted, if that is Doom it's not the Doom 3 continuity, since those cars and buildings assuredly aren't those of hundreds of years into the future from now.
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Feb 29, 2012 02:16
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JerryLee posted:I'm of mixed feelings regarding those leaked "Doom 4" shots, if indeed that's what they are. The parts that really do look like a generic Half-Life 2, Fallout, or Rage city are pretty disappointing, but here and there are some promising sights like huge crevices in the earth, evil orange glows, and especially those swarms of flying objects in one or two of the shots--it's impossible to say for sure what they are but they make me think of the dark blobby soul-things that were shooting around in parts of Doom 3's hell, and that would be awesome. I think they hinted a while ago that Doom 4 would be set in another universe, not the Doom 3 one. I'm hoping that the entire game is based on the "Earth and Hell merging" concept. I loved it in Doom 3 (like with the random lava fissures in the ground that start appearing around halfway through and seeing Delta labs with growth and scrambled computers everywhere after you returned from Hell), so a whole game that takes that theme and runs with it sounds like a winner to me.
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Feb 29, 2012 03:24
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Here's an update of sorts that I found linked on Doomworld. There are also some character models floating around now, I guess. http://www.dsogaming.com/news/the-leaked-images-are-indeed-from-doom-4-new-hard-evidence-about-the-games-identity/ Looking at the character models seems to reinforce the idea that the vibe will be survivalist instead of military (even a recently-wiped-out-except-for-you military). I'm really not sure how I feel about that in the wake of FO3 and Borderlands and Rage and uuuuuughhhh. Maybe these are all just NPCs. Maybe I shouldn't speculate in a near-vacuum. One thing I did think was amusing was the amount of shotgun shells on the outside of one of those models. I guess we know how Doomguy will be carrying around his ammo now.  edit: Random  detail that caught my eye: The railway cars visible in one of the shots clearly have non-American-style bumpers on the ends.
JerryLee fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Feb 29, 2012 |
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Feb 29, 2012 05:51
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JerryLee posted:Here's an update of sorts that I found linked on Doomworld. There are also some character models floating around now, I guess. I dig the "F" "U" on the shoulders of the dude who has made armor out of shotgun shells.
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Feb 29, 2012 06:03
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JerryLee posted:Here's an update of sorts that I found linked on Doomworld. There are also some character models floating around now, I guess. Combine those player models with the screens showing off what looks to be an underground refugee shelter, I'd say yeah, there's a definite "Terminator-future-war"-ish vibe being established, with a bunch of ragtag survivors going up against an overwhelming monster army. Also, if you're looking at the same Doomworld topic I'm looking at, this picture may be somewhat relevant as well: http://i.imgur.com/NPL7E.png I really, really want to page through those binders on the table.
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Feb 29, 2012 06:35
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I think "survivors of a hell invasion" is a pretty neat take on the Doom franchise and I hope it works out in the game. It's a lot more fresh than space marines and tech bases again.
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Feb 29, 2012 06:49
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closeted republican posted:I think "survivors of a hell invasion" is a pretty neat take on the Doom franchise and I hope it works out in the game. It's a lot more fresh than space marines and tech bases again. Both of them are well-worn tropes, but at least we haven't seen Doom's own brand of space marines since 2003. I think I could dig it if it's like living through a cataclysm in progress and the shelters are a relatively recent thing, but if the survivors have had long enough to set up underground cities full of survival-punk "technology" then I'm going to facepalm pretty hard.
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Feb 29, 2012 06:55
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closeted republican posted:I think "survivors of a hell invasion" is a pretty neat take on the Doom franchise and I hope it works out in the game. It's a lot more fresh than space marines and tech bases again. It could also go horribly, horribly wrong. When I think 'Post apocalyptic' one guy gunning down armies of demons isn't the first thing that pops into mind. Instead I imagine a cover shooter or stealthily gathering supplies.
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Feb 29, 2012 06:56
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TOOT BOOT posted:It could also go horribly, horribly wrong. When I think 'Post apocalyptic' one guy gunning down armies of demons isn't the first thing that pops into mind. Instead I imagine a cover shooter or stealthily gathering supplies. That's why I said "I hope it works out". It could go wrong. quote:I think I could dig it if it's like living through a cataclysm in progress and the shelters are a relatively recent thing, but if the survivors have had long enough to set up underground cities full of survival-punk "technology" then I'm going to facepalm pretty hard. If the environment renders are anything to go by, the invasion will still be in progress in Doom 4. Seeing armies of demons burn a city down and open fissures in the ground while you're zipping through streets and killing off groups of enemies would be cool as hell.
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Feb 29, 2012 07:24
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Carmack's comments about rendering 30 enemies at once, the look of the survivor models and id's inability to innovate makes this look like a L4D clone to me. 30 imps lobbing slow fireballs at you in an open street would look way too goofy, it just has to be melee enemies en masse. The melee guys in Rage were impressive so maybe it'll be a fun game, just not very retro.
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Feb 29, 2012 12:23
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Well, if we're talking modern sequels and spinoffs, DoomRL has been given an awesome new update, with GRAPHICS! Graphics by Spelunky developer Derek Yu, at that!
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Feb 29, 2012 13:20
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