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Aggro posted:
I started reading these books and dropped them after 50 pages because literally every third sentence had some convulted fantasy word or concept that I didn't have any idea what it was and wasn't explained either. I think I am going to give them another try, but it really pulled me off the story itself. One more thing I like about Abercrombie too, he eases out on the fantasy wording. His mages are called goddamn mages. And he doesn't leave a thousand mysteries in the air that are explained hundreds of pages later. And his fantasy nations are pretty simple, which is a plus. Can't really relate to some place called Ûiönårü or whatever. I have really hard time reading regular fantasy after GRRM and Joe. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Feb 25, 2012 |
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Feb 25, 2012 11:00
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My vote goes out to the Lies of Locke Lamora too, it's one of my favourite ever books. The quality of writing, characters, setting and plot (heist novel, essentially) are just outstanding- similarly real characters to Joe Abercrombie's novels, though less depressing!
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Feb 25, 2012 11:25
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BananaNutkins posted:The first book is really good, like a fantasy version of the Running Man. The protagonist is an Ayn Rand worshipping Mary Sue, but that didn't stop me from loving it. The second book sucks so hard. If you could remove all the philosophizing, it might be pretty good, but you'd be left with like 5 pages of Cain kneeing people in the teeth. He's more of a Heinlein Moon is a Harsh Mistress guy than Rand. I love the books to death, but can't remember anything of the third one. The first one is pretty loving awesome.
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Feb 25, 2012 14:54
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The Supreme Court posted:My vote goes out to the Lies of Locke Lamora too, it's one of my favourite ever books. The quality of writing, characters, setting and plot (heist novel, essentially) are just outstanding- similarly real characters to Joe Abercrombie's novels, though less depressing! I don't know. I couldn't put it down on my first read, but when I tried to read it again, I couldn't stop rolling my eyes at the whole thing. I felt like every protagonist was the same: all snarky, scrappy geniuses. It was like Lynch read a ton of Spider-Man comics, decided to write a book, and just used that character template for them all (except The Brawler whose name escapes me, Wolverine must have been in some of the comics). The book was OK, but I didn't think it was great. It was a decent start to the series, but since it's on indefinite hold, you can't judge it like a series, just on its own merits. I didn't find much similarity to Abercrombie's work in it either, more like Jim Butcher with less magic and more piss.
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Feb 27, 2012 06:07
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I'm about halfway through it now, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it, if only for the stark contrast it has to Abercombrie's stuff. I keep expecting something awful to happen to a main character, and I don't mind having a smile on my face while everyone ridiculously complex plan comes to fruition. Before Abercrombie, I read Rothfuss, so maybe I'll just keep bouncing back and forth between happy-go-lucky plot-armored protagonists and bleak, miserable characters that are either dead or wishing for death.
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Feb 27, 2012 23:57
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I decided to give The Blade Itself another shot and I'm enjoying it quite a bit (about 1/3 through). I'm making my way through Dogman's chapter, though, and it's a somewhat overstated summation of the tone of the book as a whole so far. I'll keep reading just based on Abercrombie's other strengths as a writer, but I'd like to know if I can expect anything other than very well executed dick waving.
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Feb 28, 2012 18:46
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Aggro posted:I keep expecting something awful to happen to a main character, and I don't mind having a smile on my face while everyone ridiculously complex plan comes to fruition. Hahahahahahahhahaha
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Feb 29, 2012 00:09
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Duck and burger posted:I decided to give The Blade Itself another shot and I'm enjoying it quite a bit (about 1/3 through). I'm making my way through Dogman's chapter, though, and it's a somewhat overstated summation of the tone of the book as a whole so far. I'll keep reading just based on Abercrombie's other strengths as a writer, but I'd like to know if I can expect anything other than very well executed dick waving. what?
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Feb 29, 2012 00:35
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Duck and burger posted:I decided to give The Blade Itself another shot and I'm enjoying it quite a bit (about 1/3 through). I'm making my way through Dogman's chapter, though, and it's a somewhat overstated summation of the tone of the book as a whole so far. I'll keep reading just based on Abercrombie's other strengths as a writer, but I'd like to know if I can expect anything other than very well executed dick waving.
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Feb 29, 2012 03:56
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Logen: Watch me be a violent badass with regrets. Glokta: Watch me be a violent torturer with regrets. Jezal: Watch me want to be a violent badass. Northern emissaries: We promise violent badassery. First Magus: Watch me be a magical badass. Dogman & co.: Watch us be violent badasses in our own unique ways. If the point of the story is to be a nuanced expression of physical force and the people who use it, that's great; it's very good at that. Is that the extent of the array of characters? They've had an impressive string of luck/shows of power so far. It's kind of off-putting, though I can't expect it can continue, considering how well this book is regarded.
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Feb 29, 2012 16:46
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If the violence is the problem then you aren't going to like Abercrombie's work. The story centers around exceptional people like most fantasy literature but they're all deeply flawed and not really admirable, so if all you're seeing is "whoa check out these awesome badasses power up to SSJ-6" then you've missed a lot of the subtext.
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Feb 29, 2012 16:56
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Especially since Glokta and Jezal (Jezal especially) are not portrayed as badass. Suffice to say that there is a lot more to the books.
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Feb 29, 2012 17:46
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Abercrombie creates intensely endearing characters that end up being bad or morally ambiguous people. You don't like Logen for his violent penchant for murder, you like him for his rugged optimism and good hearted practical nature. But then you have to come to terms that he's a murderer who enjoys killing people. You like Glokta because he's got a refreshing sense of self-awareness and a macabre sense of humor. He does good deeds at personal risk and spares people when he can, and you relate to his struggle against abusive superiors. Oh yeah, and he willingly tortures innocent people. The characters are definitely nuanced and the author isn't glorifying violence. He isn't glorifying anything, his world is bleak and morally uncertain and these are the lives that inhabit it.
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Feb 29, 2012 18:13
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I think Duck and burger might be mistaking assholes for violent bad-asses. Granted, its a common mistake to make for someone thats used to reading fantasy by authors other than Abercrombie where the characters the author tries to portray as violent bad-asses often just come off as assholes. With Abercrombie though, the duality is quite intentional and is explored further in the books.
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Feb 29, 2012 20:53
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If you still like any of the characters after a couple of books, you're doing well! Before They Are Hanged is my favourite, because it makes Glokta significantly more sympathetic while still retaining his grumpy arseholishness that makes him such an interesting character. The siege of Dagoska really stands out for me as the best thing that Joe Abercrombie has written. The Supreme Court fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 29, 2012 |
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Feb 29, 2012 21:16
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Everyone is only a "violent badass" if you ignore all of the exposition and content between the confrontations. I don't really get where that comes from at all.
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Feb 29, 2012 22:01
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The Supreme Court posted:If you still like any of the characters after a couple of books, you're doing well!
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Feb 29, 2012 22:16
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Trevefresh2 posted:I was pointed to Abercrombie from the A song of Ice and Fire Readers in SA threads. Check out the Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe. Wolfe stands head-and-shoulders above GRRM and Abercrombie.
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Feb 29, 2012 22:47
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The Gunslinger posted:Everyone is only a "violent badass" if you ignore all of the exposition and content between the confrontations. I don't really get where that comes from at all. It comes from the fact that Abercrombie wrote nearly every single character of the trilogy as a "violent badass". Not saying that I don't like violent badasses but that pretty much sums up half the characters. Let's see... Logen, Ferro, Shivers, Dogman, Grim, Tul, West etc.
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Feb 29, 2012 22:50
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el_brio posted:Check out the Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe. Wolfe stands head-and-shoulders above GRRM and Abercrombie. Will look into this. Thanks for the response.
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Feb 29, 2012 23:12
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el_brio posted:It comes from the fact that Abercrombie wrote nearly every single character of the trilogy as a "violent badass". Not saying that I don't like violent badasses but that pretty much sums up half the characters. Let's see... Logen, Ferro, Shivers, Dogman, Grim, Tul, West etc.
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Feb 29, 2012 23:22
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Trevefresh2 posted:Will look into this. Thanks for the response.
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Feb 29, 2012 23:40
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Above Our Own posted:Fantasy in general centers around people who are good at fighting and fiction lit in general centers around people who are exceptional in some way. Fair enough, but Duck's point (I think) wasn't that there were a couple of bad-asses sprinkled here and there but the whole trilogy is filled with uber-fighters-of-ultimate-deadliness. It got a little tired when Abercrombie introduced the 10th ultimate bad-rear end in the series. It kind of reminds me of Rothfuss. Also, just because you throw in a character who shits himself and is in always in pain (& constantly complaining about it) doesn't balance out all the other faults of the books. I am sick of people saying that Abercrombie is somehow doing something new and exciting in the genre. These books are as filled with the same tired swords and sorcery BS that most of the genre is. I like the books, but I am not going to fool myself into thinking that these are anything but standard fantasy fare. I like standard fantasy fair (to some extent) and I don't need to fool myself into thinking that I am reading some great genre-shattering work of art.
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Feb 29, 2012 23:51
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I don't think anyone has claimed that Abercrombie is James Joyce'in it up and all literature'in' and the like. Just, that if you're looking for the best Swords and Sorcery BS that's out there, The First Law is where you should go. I'd honestly be interested in some genuine discussion of the flaws in the books (bloated third act, riding-the-line portrayal of the lesbian princess), but I'm yet to see one.
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Feb 29, 2012 23:57
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savinhill posted:Just know that Wolfe stands above the other authors prose-wise, not storytelling-wise. Book of the New Sun has a very abstract and meandering plot and you might not like it if you're more into plot than prose. Pre-AFFC, I would agree with you. GRRM's last two books, however, are the textbook definition of meandering plot.
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Feb 29, 2012 23:58
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el_brio posted:Fair enough, but Duck's point (I think) wasn't that there were a couple of bad-asses sprinkled here and there but the whole trilogy is filled with uber-fighters-of-ultimate-deadliness. It got a little tired when Abercrombie introduced the 10th ultimate bad-rear end in the series. It kind of reminds me of Rothfuss. Also, just because you throw in a character who shits himself and is in always in pain (& constantly complaining about it) doesn't balance out all the other faults of the books. I am sick of people saying that Abercrombie is somehow doing something new and exciting in the genre. These books are as filled with the same tired swords and sorcery BS that most of the genre is. I like the books, but I am not going to fool myself into thinking that these are anything but standard fantasy fare. I like standard fantasy fair (to some extent) and I don't need to fool myself into thinking that I am reading some great genre-shattering work of art. That's a big straw man though. Who are the people saying that Joe is a genre shattering genius, dishing out literary perfection and lilting prose to the masses? He writes bleak, cynical fantasy quite well and generally has strong characterization. The point was simply that calling Logen a "violent badass" ignores all of the other nuance his character has. The books are not simply a series of violent setpieces with characters moving between as filler for the sake of it.
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Mar 1, 2012 00:15
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Evfedu posted:I don't think anyone has claimed that Abercrombie is James Joyce'in it up and all literature'in' and the like. Just, that if you're looking for the best Swords and Sorcery BS that's out there, The First Law is where you should go. I don't think the third act is particularly bloated but I do think that Ferro is a very weak character and that the whole 'pinks' thing is forced and awkward. And the portrayal of the lesbian princess is pretty bad, yeah - Abercrombie himself has admitted that. The books definitely have flaws but I don't think 'the characters are all violent badasses' is a valid criticism.
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Mar 1, 2012 00:17
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This post contains a whole lotta spoilers and you shouldn't read it if you have any interest in reading the drat books. I actually had a lot of time for Ferro. You're right she wasn't a great character but I think that was a problem of necessity. Having her be both devil-blooded and the symbol of Khalul's victimization of the Gurkish was just trying to fit too much into one character. Perhaps she was initially meant to be two characters that got dovetailed. Same problem in reverse for Terez, really. I really liked the pinks thing when it turned out she was colourblind. Yeah, I know, telling rather than showing and hammering home the subtext but I still dug it.
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Mar 1, 2012 00:29
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el_brio posted:Fair enough, but Duck's point (I think) wasn't that there were a couple of bad-asses sprinkled here and there but the whole trilogy is filled with uber-fighters-of-ultimate-deadliness. It got a little tired when Abercrombie introduced the 10th ultimate bad-rear end in the series. It kind of reminds me of Rothfuss. Also, just because you throw in a character who shits himself and is in always in pain (& constantly complaining about it) doesn't balance out all the other faults of the books. I am sick of people saying that Abercrombie is somehow doing something new and exciting in the genre. These books are as filled with the same tired swords and sorcery BS that most of the genre is. I like the books, but I am not going to fool myself into thinking that these are anything but standard fantasy fare. I like standard fantasy fair (to some extent) and I don't need to fool myself into thinking that I am reading some great genre-shattering work of art. Uh, it's a world in which pretty much every place is experiencing massive warfare. And you are surprised that we meet a shitload of soldiers who, as a result of having known nothing but constant war for a decade happen to be good at fighting? Also lot of the "violent badasses" meet a terrible end or experience horrible things due to their violent ways. I haven't really read a book that portrays war as bad and useless as these books. I have no idea where some people get that the books glorify it.
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Mar 1, 2012 00:34
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Evfedu posted:I actually had a lot of time for Ferro. You're right she wasn't a great character but I think that was a problem of necessity. Having her be both devil-blooded and the symbol of Khalul's victimization of the Gurkish was just trying to fit too much into one character. Perhaps she was initially meant to be two characters that got dovetailed. Same problem in reverse for Terez, really. I dunno, I thought it fit the setting pretty well--all the politics of the world are just the foreground of a fight that's been going on between the mages for a long, long time.
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Mar 1, 2012 04:32
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Slanderer posted:I dunno, I thought it fit the setting pretty well--all the politics of the world are just the foreground of a fight that's been going on between the mages for a long, long time.
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Mar 1, 2012 05:34
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Whirrun of Bligh was the most violent badass of them all.
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Mar 4, 2012 23:59
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Normal Adult Human posted:Whirrun of Bligh was the most violent badass of them all. side stories about him would be cool to read
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Mar 5, 2012 02:44
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Normal Adult Human posted:Whirrun of Bligh was the most violent badass of them all. It's been a while, but I was vaguely convinced back when I read it that his death going against what his magic sword told him was evidence of direct intervention in the battle by Bayaz by means of his apprentice (whose name is eluding me right now), since he shows up multiple times with evidence that he was secretly participating in the battle. That, or Abercrombie commenting on the randomness of death. Or both, I guess.
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Mar 5, 2012 03:11
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Slanderer posted:That, or Abercrombie commenting on the randomness of death. I'd say it was this considering how much of his combat writing is how things can and will go tits up without warning.
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Mar 5, 2012 06:13
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I'd say it was Abercrombie at his usual shtick, subverting common fantasy tropes. Legendary warrior with an ancient sword of power dies pointlessly in a relatively inconsequential fight.
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Mar 5, 2012 06:31
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Slanderer posted:It's been a while, but I was vaguely convinced back when I read it that his death going against what his magic sword told him was evidence of direct intervention in the battle by Bayaz by means of his apprentice (whose name is eluding me right now), since he shows up multiple times with evidence that he was secretly participating in the battle. I think Yoru Sulfur was doing some other stuff, in the swamp or spying on Ishri or something like that.
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Mar 5, 2012 20:05
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DarkCrawler posted:I think Yoru Sulfur was doing some other stuff, in the swamp or spying on Ishri or something like that. I thought it was pretty unclear, but I seem to recall him showing up dressed as a soldier at one point.
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Mar 5, 2012 20:41
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DarkCrawler posted:I think Yoru Sulfur was doing some other stuff, in the swamp or spying on Ishri or something like that. Wasn't he off negotiating with Stranger Come Knocking or some such?
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Mar 5, 2012 20:53
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Above Our Own posted:I'd say it was Abercrombie at his usual shtick, subverting common fantasy tropes. Legendary warrior with an ancient sword of power dies pointlessly in a relatively inconsequential fight. Whirrun reminded me of burnt face dog man from the GRRM books. He had this entire characterization of gaining revenge upon his elder brother but just died of fever in the middle of nowhere without any real goal or closure. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 5, 2012 23:37
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