Oxxidation posted:A painfully apt analogy is still an apt analogy. I don't like making it any more than you like hearing it. Fair enough then.
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Feb 17, 2012 20:08
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You can not like Snuff. That's fine. But you shouldn't attribute that to his illness, either directly or indirectly (through editors not challenging him because of his illness). First of all, I don't think that works of art, such as books, should be evaluated in terms of their creators. They should be evaluated in terms of their readers/viewers/whatever. It doesn't matter what Fitzgerald meant the eyes on that billboard to mean, it matters what they mean to you. Similarly, it doesn't matter why Pratchett wrote Snuff a certain way, it matters why you didn't like it. Secondly, we have absolutely no evidence that his illness is causing any changes we might see in his writing. No one is well-equipped to say how much his illness is affecting his writing except the man himself. Consider also that Monstrous Regiment, which most of the people here think is terrible, was written several years before his Alzheimer's symptoms began appearing. Making Money, which I thought was below Pratchett standard quality, was written before he was diagnosed and before his physical symptoms got bad enough to force him to dictate his writing. If you want to criticize Snuff, criticize Snuff.
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Feb 17, 2012 21:17
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Monstrous Regiment is great, gently caress the haters. Also, sub-par Pratchett is still probably the best fantasy writer extant or to date.
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Feb 17, 2012 21:59
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DontMockMySmock posted:You can not like Snuff. That's fine. But you shouldn't attribute that to his illness, either directly or indirectly (through editors not challenging him because of his illness). First of all, I don't think that works of art, such as books, should be evaluated in terms of their creators. They should be evaluated in terms of their readers/viewers/whatever. It doesn't matter what Fitzgerald meant the eyes on that billboard to mean, it matters what they mean to you. Similarly, it doesn't matter why Pratchett wrote Snuff a certain way, it matters why you didn't like it. Secondly, we have absolutely no evidence that his illness is causing any changes we might see in his writing. No one is well-equipped to say how much his illness is affecting his writing except the man himself. I have very little patience with death of the author even when it's being used properly, and you're using it in the warped "internet argument" way that's usually dragged out when someone needs to scramble away from backing up their opinions. The author and their works are related. The end. This relation does not have to be the end-all be-all of literary analysis, and other interpretations separate from the author's condition or even their personal opinions on the work are still valid, but when a writer's quality nose-dives after they freely confess that their process has been adversely affected by, let's not dance around it, a neuro-degenerative illness, it is not terribly loving difficult to draw the line between point A and point B. As for the examples of other books you brought up, all of them miss the point. Monstrous Regiment mostly draws flak for its relatively hamfisted messaging (similar to Equal Rites) and kind of silly plot twist, but the language pops, same as always. Ditto with Eric, which has the same brisk flow and imagery as any of Pratchett's other Rincewind books, problems with its length or content aside. Making Money didn't have the same relentless forward movement as Going Postal and its plot elements (Fusspot, Hugo and his machinery, the Lavishes' machinations) didn't gel as well as they used to, but if you can't see the difference between its writing and that of Snuff, then that's a deficiency on your part. You could flip to almost any page and any passage in that book (and some people in this thread have done exactly that) and see the way Pratchett's writing has changed, and it's not an "evolution." It's degradation. So yeah, for people like me who have an entire shelf dedicated to Pratchett books (one that ran out of horizontal space two years ago) that have mostly been read almost in half, it's kind of a real loving bummer and hard not to see Snuff as the beginning of something inevitable, given overwhelming evidence about the author's condition. You want to believe that this was just a rough patch or that none of the problems were really that pronounced, fine. But you don't get to shittalk or condescend to anybody because of your inability or unwillingness to discern the obvious. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Feb 18, 2012 |
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Feb 17, 2012 23:13
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DontMockMySmock posted:Secondly, we have absolutely no evidence that his illness is causing any changes we might see in his writing. No one is well-equipped to say how much his illness is affecting his writing except the man himself. He has said he has to use a speech to type program now for his writing due to the illness.
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Feb 18, 2012 03:43
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Mister Roboto posted:He has said he has to use a speech to type program now for his writing due to the illness. I meant mentally, not physically.
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Feb 18, 2012 04:58
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One of the pluses of this thread, for me, has been it's insistence on focusing on our love of Pterry's work as opposed to a banal evaluation of his decline, or lesser works. I'd really like it to remain like that. I'm not trying to take anyone's opinions away from them, but personally I'd rather we not get bogged down in arguing over something extremely grim that we don't really know about, whatever we believe.
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Feb 18, 2012 05:20
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...people don't like Monstrous Regiment?
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Feb 18, 2012 08:09
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DontMockMySmock posted:I meant mentally, not physically. I had a chance to speak with Pterry 18 months ago, and at the time he was still sharp and quick as ever. That was three years after the initial diagnosis, five years after the first presentation of symptoms. It's having more profound physical effects, thankfully.
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Feb 18, 2012 11:01
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Pope Guilty posted:...people don't like Monstrous Regiment? Upon first read I was categorizing it somewhere near In comparison, UA isn't getting much more palatable upon re-reads while I like Snuff just fine. And I Shall Wear Midnight is great except for like one or two things that drive me crazy. There's really no accounting for taste.
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Feb 18, 2012 11:08
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DontMockMySmock posted:I meant mentally, not physically. Have you ever used a speech to text program before? It's a very jarring experience to switch and compose your thoughts verbally instead of the millisecond-self-corrections that the human brain can do when the words are written in front of us. Try it yourself--try reading every post in this thread out to yourself and see how strange they sound. Things just SOUND different when you write them versus saying them out loud. Our brains express written word differently than verbal.
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Feb 18, 2012 11:13
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Mister Roboto posted:Have you ever used a speech to text program before? It's a very jarring experience to switch and compose your thoughts verbally instead of the millisecond-self-corrections that the human brain can do when the words are written in front of us. Any good book goes through so many drafts that, it seems to me, the author's ability to read what they wrote and decide whether or not to change it is much more important than their ability to write it in the first place. And Terry, AFAIK, has no trouble reading. But I concede that it's a decent point. I dunno, I guess I'd have an easier time believing his illness was harming his work if I didn't enjoy Snuff so much. After all, ThaGhettoJew posted:There's really no accounting for taste. I enjoyed Monstrous Regiment and ISWM too, I just know that they've gotten some hate in this thread.
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Feb 18, 2012 11:26
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I'm listening to audio books right now. I've finished Going Postal with Stephen Briggs and am currently listening to Feet of Clay with Nigel Planer. So far I think Stephen Briggs is better, simply because Nigel Planer has given most of the characters this weird nasal voice. Angua doesn't speak with a nasal voice  On the other hand, Stephen Briggs does this weird irish/scottish accent for a few too many characters, but it's still not as bad as Planer's. I got Thud and Nightwatch waiting for me, and then I have to decide which book should be next on my list. I've been looking some at Tony Robinson's works, but as far as I can see on Audible, he's only read abridged versions. And dammit, I want the whole thing!
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Feb 19, 2012 19:08
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I couldn't find if this was discussed earlier, but has any other discworld novel had the word "poo poo" in it? I'm reading Snuff at the moment and so far there has been several mentions, such as "putting up with this poo poo". I've no problem with swearing, but I was surprised to see it in a Pratchett novel. Isn't he more creative with avoiding swearing?
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Feb 20, 2012 05:41
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Grumio posted:I couldn't find if this was discussed earlier, but has any other discworld novel had the word "poo poo" in it? I'm reading Snuff at the moment and so far there has been several mentions, such as "putting up with this poo poo". I've no problem with swearing, but I was surprised to see it in a Pratchett novel. Isn't he more creative with avoiding swearing? I don't know what you're -ing talking about.
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Feb 20, 2012 05:45
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Grumio posted:I couldn't find if this was discussed earlier, but has any other discworld novel had the word "poo poo" in it? I'm reading Snuff at the moment and so far there has been several mentions, such as "putting up with this poo poo". I've no problem with swearing, but I was surprised to see it in a Pratchett novel. Isn't he more creative with avoiding swearing? I'm pretty sure I've seen it a few times, but not that often. One specific instance (since I'm rereading this right now) is in the Fifth Elephant when Lady Margolotta finds out Vimes is the ambassador, and says "the midden has hit the windmill," to which her Igor replies something like "nobody likes a thort thower of thit." So not exactly "poo poo," but close enough!
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Feb 20, 2012 06:47
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The only other time I can think of is Lance Constable Cuddy's "I'm too short for this poo poo" line in Men at Arms. Still gets a chuckle out of me.
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Feb 20, 2012 07:12
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Grumio posted:I couldn't find if this was discussed earlier, but has any other discworld novel had the word "poo poo" in it? I'm reading Snuff at the moment and so far there has been several mentions, such as "putting up with this poo poo". I've no problem with swearing, but I was surprised to see it in a Pratchett novel. Isn't he more creative with avoiding swearing? Usually he is, Snuff was far more blunt in its language for some reason. It didn't add much to the narrative, either.
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Feb 20, 2012 09:07
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Lugubrious posted:I'm pretty sure I've seen it a few times, but not that often. One specific instance (since I'm rereading this right now) is in the Fifth Elephant when Lady Margolotta finds out Vimes is the ambassador, and says "the midden has hit the windmill," to which her Igor replies something like "nobody likes a thort thower of thit." There's also the bit in The Light Fantastic where Cohen is telling Rincewind and Bethan the temple maiden how sick he is of having to eat soup because he has no teeth. "They shay, "poo poo down by the fire, grandad, and have shome shoop" - why ish [Bethan] coughing?"
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Feb 20, 2012 09:45
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Huh. You know, mentioning TLF got me thinking and I realized something about Snuff. It feels like an early Pratchett novel. For example, it's several non-interconnected events: the class war at the start, then the murder, then the high speed waterboat chase??? Take the cover: It makes it seem like this scary life or death situation with Vimes piloting a boat with chickens (and a lifetimer?). Does Vimes even touch the wheel in Snuff? Does the chicken thing come out outside the random farmer? It's as if Kidby had to work with just the boat sequence as if it were the entire story, because, quite frankly, it's the weakest part. The murder mystery was far more interesting than the entire boat was. It reminds me of TLF or Eric, as if Pratchett had various little vignettes that were too small for an entire novel so they got put together.
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Feb 20, 2012 10:05
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DontMockMySmock posted:I enjoyed Monstrous Regiment and ISWM too, I just know that they've gotten some hate in this thread. The positive comments on this page made me re-read it. It was the only adult Discworld book I'd only read once. I remembered it like "and here's another suprise" - but it wasn't like that at all, it was hugely enjoyable and he doesn't hit you over the head with the "twists". I've also listened to a few of the audio books and they are good, but what are they playing at with the accents? Glenda in Unseen Academicals is Welsh but people who grew up in the same neighbourhood are mockneys...how did that happen? And isn't Welsh reserved for Llamedos?
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Feb 28, 2012 21:03
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NastyPBears posted:The positive comments on this page made me re-read it. It was the only adult Discworld book I'd only read once. I still don't get the hate that it gets. I just re-read it and still enjoyed it-- the "twist" isn't much of a twist at all, given the cover and the reveals less than 50 pages in. It seemed more like it was parodying books that have the "and it turns out they were twins" endings on the last page, than actually doing any hamfisted reveals itself.
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Feb 28, 2012 21:13
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Oh I agree totally, it was just I remembered it as hamfisted for some reason. I hadn't read it since 2003/4 and if anyone else is in the same boat I'd recommend picking it up again...
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Feb 28, 2012 21:36
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I read it for the first time yesterday, and even though I knew the "twists", I still found it an enjoyable read.
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Feb 28, 2012 21:53
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Wistful Thinking posted:The only other time I can think of is Lance Constable Cuddy's "I'm too short for this poo poo" line in Men at Arms. Still gets a chuckle out of me.
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Feb 29, 2012 23:01
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Presto posted:In one of the books there's a section where a character is warning another character about the Librarian, and they say something like, "It's all right, just don't say monkey. Ohshit." Now that I think about it, I think Moist makes a reference to literal pigeon poo poo in Going Postal.
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Mar 1, 2012 00:41
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Presto posted:In one of the books there's a section where a character is warning another character about the Librarian, and they say something like, "It's all right, just don't say monkey. Ohshit."
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Mar 1, 2012 13:05
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From Facebook: 
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Mar 2, 2012 12:36
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Well my day is certainly brighter now.
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Mar 2, 2012 16:16
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AXE COP posted:From Facebook: It's been too long since we've heard from The Duckman, Beggar to the Upper Gentry.
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Mar 2, 2012 20:28
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Nilbop posted:It's been too long since we've heard from The Duckman, Beggar to the Upper Gentry. What duck?
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Mar 2, 2012 22:44
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DontMockMySmock posted:Any good book goes through so many drafts that, it seems to me, the author's ability to read what they wrote and decide whether or not to change it is much more important than their ability to write it in the first place. And Terry, AFAIK, has no trouble reading. But I concede that it's a decent point. I dunno, I guess I'd have an easier time believing his illness was harming his work if I didn't enjoy Snuff so much. Pterry did a "my life with Alzheimer's" documentary on the BBC about a year after he was diagnosed (2009). At the time the program was being filmed he tried to do a reading of a bit of Nation (his swansong) at a convention and was literally unable to see/process the words. "It was like a shadow on the page". The whole audience was so heart-broken and it remains one of the most profoundly upsetting things I've ever seen. Then at the end of the second programme they showed us comparative brain-scans after a year with the disease and he already had visible brain damage. It is awful and unbearable and literal proof (if more were required) that if God exists He's a oval office, but his ability to write is being taken away from him. It's an incredible testament to his character and skill as a writer that he's still head-and-shoulders above 90% of fantasy-fiction authors out there, but, there you go. 
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Mar 2, 2012 23:59
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Evfedu posted:It is awful and unbearable and literal proof (if more were required) that if God exists He's a oval office, but his ability to write is being taken away from him. It's an incredible testament to his character and skill as a writer that he's still head-and-shoulders above 90% of fantasy-fiction authors out there, but, there you go. Vetinari posted:Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior. I wonder how much of that scene was driven by Pratchett's own experience.
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Mar 3, 2012 00:04
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That scene was more on the nose than he had been before (and was also the best scene in that book) but right from Guards, Guards it's been made clear that Vetinari thought that way. When he gives Vimes the whole monologue about humanity being sea of evil with goodness as a shallow artifice perched on top. I think the closest we've ever really come to Pratchett looking straight to camera is the end of Nation with the old man and the telescopes.
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Mar 3, 2012 00:13
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AXE COP posted:From Facebook: I immediately thought "What duck?" and got a huge smile on my face.
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Mar 3, 2012 03:37
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AXE COP posted:From Facebook: Well, turns out I'm morbid as hell. This was what instantly sprang to mind for me; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn To maybe make the discussion a little more optimistic, his new non-Discworld book looks pretty interesting, no?; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Earth
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Mar 3, 2012 20:03
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As he did with Where's My Cow?, Terry Pratchett is releasing a new 'children's storybook' called World of Poo based on the book Young Sam was reading in Snuff.
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Mar 4, 2012 12:49
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Evfedu posted:Pterry did a "my life with Alzheimer's" documentary on the BBC about a year after he was diagnosed (2009). At the time the program was being filmed he tried to do a reading of a bit of Nation (his swansong) at a convention and was literally unable to see/process the words. "It was like a shadow on the page". The whole audience was so heart-broken and it remains one of the most profoundly upsetting things I've ever seen. I was in the audience when that reading was filmed in 2008. Pterry read for an hour and only paused a few times; when he said "Sorry, there's a shadow on the page" was the longest. The audience did know something was wrong, but you've got to bear in mind that this was at the official Discworld Convention rather than a random con, so everyone there was a dedicated Pratchett fan and most of us had known about the diagnosis for several months. Obviously the documentary focused on that particular pause because it stood out, but it did imply that he wasn't capable of reading any more when in fact if you hadn't known he had Alzheimer's, you wouldn't have thought anything was wrong. It was only really in the next two years that the damage set in.
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Mar 5, 2012 00:24
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Izz posted:As he did with Where's My Cow?, Terry Pratchett is releasing a new 'children's storybook' called World of Poo based on the book Young Sam was reading in Snuff. According to that site he's also announced a book called Dodger set in Victorian times (although it's possibly also a sequel-ish thing to Nation). There is a release date of September (early in the UK, late for US), and I'm psyched because I really liked Nation and didn't think there was going to be anything much new coming out that soon.
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Mar 5, 2012 06:25
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Jedit posted:I was in the audience when that reading was filmed in 2008. Pterry read for an hour and only paused a few times; when he said "Sorry, there's a shadow on the page" was the longest. The audience did know something was wrong, but you've got to bear in mind that this was at the official Discworld Convention rather than a random con, so everyone there was a dedicated Pratchett fan and most of us had known about the diagnosis for several months. Obviously the documentary focused on that particular pause because it stood out, but it did imply that he wasn't capable of reading any more when in fact if you hadn't known he had Alzheimer's, you wouldn't have thought anything was wrong. It was only really in the next two years that the damage set in.
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Mar 5, 2012 11:19
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