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Ornamented Death posted:On the flip side, how many fantasy and sci-fi authors don't have issues? Brandon Sanderson seems like he's too busy writing to pack his closet with any skeletons. Unless you consider Mormonism an issue (which it eventually became for Orson Scott Card).
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Mar 2, 2012 10:14
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Maxwells Demon posted:Brandon Sanderson seems like he's too busy writing to pack his closet with any skeletons. Unless you consider Mormonism an issue (which it eventually became for Orson Scott Card). I think some of the more deeply conservative aspects of it will become issues at some point. He's already had to walk back his stance on gay marriage, for example.
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Mar 2, 2012 16:18
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I saw all the activity and thought maybe there was news on the third book, sadly it was more fantasy author creepiness. There's a thread in d&d all about feminism and misogny in sci fi and fantasy, GRRM, and the Bakker thread are pretty much all focused on this.
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Mar 2, 2012 19:06
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Above Our Own posted:I don't know that much about what GRRM has said and I've only read two of his books. I seem to remember Arya, Brienne, Catelyn, and Cersei being better written female characters than anything Rothfuss managed so I figured that apart from his penchant for weird sex stuff in his books that he viewed women normally.  read the rest of the books, then read the bad thread.
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Mar 3, 2012 02:33
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Krakkles posted:Of course I totally disagree re: GRRM. He has some questionable stuff but for the most part it's pulpy and lascivious, rather than disturbing/misogynistic/reductive. There are lots of female characters with agency, rape is always treated as a bad thing, etc. Denna is 3000% more disturbing than anything in ASOIAF, and it's all about the narrative/Rothfuss's attitude toward her (through Kothe).
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Mar 3, 2012 04:10
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porfiria posted:I totally disagree re: GRRM. He has some questionable stuff but for the most part it's pulpy and lascivious, rather than disturbing/misogynistic/reductive. There are lots of female characters with agency, rape is always treated as a bad thing, etc. Denna is 3000% more disturbing than anything in ASOIAF, and it's all about the narrative/Rothfuss's attitude toward her (through Kothe).
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Mar 3, 2012 04:29
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Seriously I can't believe theres a thread this long about this author. I cringed at the part when the story started to talk about his romantic love interest. This one in a million girl that words cannot describe,only that shes beautiful.The story isn't entertaining. Kvothe is just so mary-sue as Im reading it I think this must be an ironic recommendation for gooniest fantasy novel. For a reference point I'm at the the part where Kvothe out smarts Ambrose by insulting him for haggling . Its not bad by any means but how long do I have to sludge through this until I see some real hardcore battles Abercrombie style?
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Mar 3, 2012 06:54
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Kneel Before Zog posted:or a reference point I'm at the the part where Kvothe out smarts Ambrose by insulting him for haggling . Its not bad by any means but how long do I have to sludge through this until I see some real hardcore battles Abercrombie style? It will never happen, stop reading.
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Mar 3, 2012 07:04
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soru posted:It will never happen, stop reading. The tree thing is pretty cool, but ya, this is not that kind of fantasy.
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Mar 3, 2012 07:37
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BananaNutkins posted:The tree thing is pretty cool, but ya, this is not that kind of fantasy. So Kvothe doesn't eventually surpass everyone in the Arcanum and becomes wizard god and kicks all kinds of rear end?
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Mar 3, 2012 08:32
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Kneel Before Zog posted:So Kvothe doesn't eventually surpass everyone in the Arcanum and becomes wizard god and kicks all kinds of rear end? No, he does. He just doesn't do it eventually. He's born as the best wizard alive. The journey is more about making everyone else realize that.
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Mar 3, 2012 12:03
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God, Rothfuss' blog makes me feel really good about myself. Whenever I feel awkward or am confronted with the revelation that I have some terrible opinion, I think of Pat Rothfuss and just smile
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Mar 3, 2012 17:02
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Kneel Before Zog posted:So Kvothe doesn't eventually surpass everyone in the Arcanum and becomes wizard god and kicks all kinds of rear end? Well, there's one more book left for Kvothe to do something cool. So far he's trained a lot with ninjas, played music, and accidentally cast a couple high level spells. Before Kvothe can become cool Mr. Wizard hero, he has to have an antagonist. And as of the last book, his most dangerous antagonists have been the roofs of buildings.
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Mar 3, 2012 17:33
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BananaNutkins posted:Before Kvothe can become cool Mr. Wizard hero, he has to have an antagonist. And as of the last book, his most dangerous antagonists have been the roofs of buildings. The chandrian are pretty drat cool antagonists. So, yeah, we don't get to see much of them. More Ambrose the pig-headed university student it is! (The hate tree is awesome though)
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Mar 3, 2012 18:26
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The Book Barn > Patrick Rothfuss: Came for Kvothe, Stayed for the Hate Tree
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Mar 4, 2012 00:26
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I hope there's at least 300 pages about Kvothe/Ambrose rivalry in book 3 you guys
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Mar 4, 2012 06:08
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Chamberk posted:I hope there's at least 300 pages about Kvothe/Ambrose rivalry in book 3 you guys That would be better than having another 200-300 pages of Kvothe whining about how poor he is and coming up with money making schemes to pay for classes and then wondering how he'll pay for next semester! (Especially since by all means the 3rd book should have none of that)
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Mar 4, 2012 06:28
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Yeah, honestly I'd settle for just 300 pages of weird anime sex moves.
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Mar 4, 2012 09:06
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The Kingkiller Chronicle 3: Super Finance Manager Edition 2016
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Mar 4, 2012 14:16
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Never mind. Figured it out myself
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Mar 6, 2012 21:35
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The Kingkiller Chronicle 3: Lemonade Tycoon Wizard
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Mar 6, 2012 22:54
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Say what you will about Rothfuss a-bloo-bloo-blooing over the Hobbit film, but you can't deny that his nerd-girl-turned-pornstar is one of the more nuanced females characters he's come up with thus far.
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Mar 7, 2012 01:45
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Honestly I think at this point you guys are just looking for things to bitch about. There seems to be some pretty heavy confirmation bias going on in your analyses of his blog post - I think if someone who you hadn't already categorized as a socially inept dirty perv had written that post you wouldn't give it a second thought. Granted the analogy does stretch on a bit, but since it's an *analogy*, what he's really talking about is how much he loved LOTR/The Hobbit, and using the girl to illustrate the myriad nuances of his love for the series. It's a good analogy, IMO. It made perfect sense to me and it got his point across pretty comprehensively.
isochronous fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Mar 7, 2012 |
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Mar 7, 2012 22:38
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isochronous posted:at this point you guys are just looking for things to bitch about So yeah I think that making fun of this guy's reddit worthy views on women is a pretty good time. Also really looking forward to book 3, because drat I like Rothfuss' writing style.
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Mar 7, 2012 22:49
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isochronous posted:Honestly I think at this point you guys are just looking for things to bitch about. There seems to be some pretty heavy confirmation bias going on in your analyses of his blog post - I think if someone who you hadn't already categorized as a socially inept dirty perv had written that post you wouldn't give it a second thought. Granted the analogy does stretch on a bit, but since it's an *analogy*, what he's really talking about is how much he loved LOTR/The Hobbit, and using the girl to illustrate the myriad nuances of his love for the series. It's a good analogy, IMO. It made perfect sense to me and it got his point across pretty comprehensively. No, the analogy is gross no matter who says it. The concept of a matured or more polished version of something you'd idealized in your youth being disappointing is a good topic, and is definitely true and worthy of discussion. But the lack of awareness of the idealization when it comes to a living, breathing human being, especially a woman, is really awful and shows a problem with how someone thinks about women in general. Talking about women as if they are things is just plain disgusting. If he'd made the analogy about his first car versus his grown up car, or high school sports games versus professional leagues, or the pond in his backyard versus a state-of-the-art pool complex, all would have gotten across the exact same point. The fact that he chose to go for "idealized women, young and old" is telling, and the fact that he doesn't seem to realize how wrong it is is even more telling. That it sheds light on an author's warped view of women that was already lurking in his books is just a bonus.
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Mar 7, 2012 22:59
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isochronous posted:Honestly I think at this point you guys are just looking for things to bitch about. There seems to be some pretty heavy confirmation bias going on in your analyses of his blog post - I think if someone who you hadn't already categorized as a socially inept dirty perv had written that post you wouldn't give it a second thought. Granted the analogy does stretch on a bit, but since it's an *analogy*, what he's really talking about is how much he loved LOTR/The Hobbit, and using the girl to illustrate the myriad nuances of his love for the series. It's a good analogy, IMO. It made perfect sense to me and it got his point across pretty comprehensively. FYI There's a pretty good chance you're a misogynist and you don't even realize it, hth
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Mar 7, 2012 23:43
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isochronous posted:Honestly I think at this point you guys are just looking for things to bitch about. There seems to be some pretty heavy confirmation bias going on in your analyses of his blog post - I think if someone who you hadn't already categorized as a socially inept dirty perv had written that post you wouldn't give it a second thought. Granted the analogy does stretch on a bit, but since it's an *analogy*, what he's really talking about is how much he loved LOTR/The Hobbit, and using the girl to illustrate the myriad nuances of his love for the series. It's a good analogy, IMO. It made perfect sense to me and it got his point across pretty comprehensively. "I have known her longer, my smile said. True, you have been inside the circle of her arms, tasted her mouth, felt the warmth of her, and that is something I have never had. But there is a part of her that is only for me. You cannot touch it, no matter how hard you might try. And after she has left you I will still be here, making her laugh. My light shining in her. I will still be here long after she has forgotten your name."
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Mar 8, 2012 00:04
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So, I'm just curious: Does every author who writes a character with flaws mean that the author has those flaws? Why is it that Kvothe being less than well adjusted mean that Rothfuss hates women? I still think that Kvothe is a just an unreliable narrator. When he first talks about how stunning and amazing Denna is Bast basically goes, yeah, I met her, she wasn't that great looking. Kvothe is a damned gypsy storyteller who grew up with theatrics. Why does his hyperbolic autobiography make the Author a self-instering (har har) masturbater?
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Mar 8, 2012 17:03
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Kvothe is a paper thin self-insert of Rothfuss' collegiate angst concerning relationships and money. He wrote the series while in college. He has frequently said on his blog how much he likes his main character and how much he "sees things like Kvothe would." That is the loving definition of a self insert, and coupled together with the fact that there is no other characterization in the story that presents contrary views you can bet your balls that the terrible views Kvothe has are shared by the author. Cf. his blog for further confirmation. e. RE: Unreliable narrator Point me to anywhere in the text that confirms that Kvothe's account is untrue or unreliable in any way beyond conjecture. Bast and Chronicler worship Kvothe in the present, and the author takes lengths to describe his perfect memory, dazzling intellect, "grip like iron," and general badass manner despite being unable to fight or perform magic. If Rothfuss was using the unreliable narrator device there should be progressive clues that the narration is unreliable but there aren't any. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Mar 8, 2012 |
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Mar 8, 2012 17:11
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Dershiva posted:So, I'm just curious: Does every author who writes a character with flaws mean that the author has those flaws? Why is it that Kvothe being less than well adjusted mean that Rothfuss hates women? No, it doesn't mean that for every author. I don't think that Ellis is actually a serial killer like Patrick Bateman. I don't think that Shakespeare was actually a manipulative psychopath like Iago. I don't think that Suzanne Collins is actually teenaged brat like Katniss. It would be entirely possible for someone to write the character of Kvothe without actually being a weirdo about women. However, in the fantasy genre, from Tolkien on down, the odds are not in your favor on that point. Rothfuss' other writing, like that blog post, has borne out that he actually does think about "dream women" in the same way that Kvothe does - he is not the exception. And like I've said, I don't think Rothfuss hates women. Tolkien hated women. Rothfuss idealizes them to the point where he removes their personality and substitutes it with whatever qualities he finds most appealing (like Kvothe). I actually think, in regard to women as a whole, Rothfuss is "better" than other fantasy authors, who either ignore women totally or give them the label of victim, the label of villain, or the label of "mom". In Rothfuss' books, the women that are not seen as "special" are given agency and intelligence and non-devastating flaws just like any other ancillary character. The problem comes into a true love interest character like Denna who is treated most disgustingly by both author and character. This is exacerbated by the fact that in society right now, hating women is not considered acceptable but idealizing them still is, and that goons are among the worst offenders of this "acceptable" misogyny which is maybe why it gets so much discussion around here. It's entirely possible Rothfuss will be revealed to have subverted this whole thing in the end when Denna turns out to have been a fully formed human being with her own identity, agency, and strength for the entire story which Kvothe ignored in his idealization. That would be great, but I don't think Rothfuss is that self-aware. I don't think that Bast's comment is reflective of Rothfuss realizing that what Kvothe is doing is ridiculous, but more realizing that other people often don't share his idealization of someone. It seems like, if Denna is revealed as something other than what Kvothe thinks, it's going to shake out that Denna "glamoured" him in some fashion, taking the blame off of Kvothe for his gross attitude and putting it on the woman for causing it.
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Mar 8, 2012 17:28
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Above Our Own posted:e. RE: Unreliable narrator
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Mar 8, 2012 17:32
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The thing is, while Kvothe is often a gently caress-up, he's a gently caress-up in ways that are generally either non-conflicting with his super badassery, or in ways that enhance said badassery. Much like how 'clumsy' is an extremely common 'flaw' in your generic female fanfic self-insert mary sue, things like Kvothe's being terminally poor, or an rear end in a top hat to the wrong people, they largely only exist as springboard for him to do something gratuitously badass. I have no doubt that there's an element of the story that's being unreliably told, but there's just too much to Kvothe himself that's very classic Mary Sue for me to think there's going to be some brilliant switcheroo or subversion that's coming. At least not with regard to Kvothe the character.
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Mar 8, 2012 18:45
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Sophia posted:In Rothfuss' books, the women that are not seen as "special" are given agency and intelligence and non-devastating flaws just like any other ancillary character. The problem comes into a true love interest character like Denna who is treated most disgustingly by both author and character. This is exacerbated by the fact that in society right now, hating women is not considered acceptable but idealizing them still is, and that goons are among the worst offenders of this "acceptable" misogyny which is maybe why it gets so much discussion around here. The only thing I really disagree with in your post is the argument that Denna is portrayed as flawless. I think Kvothe sees her that way, but the way she acts in the novels is generally TERRIBLE. She basically uses a series of dudes, is a practiced liar, and has some kind of horrible secret in her past.
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Mar 8, 2012 18:55
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neongrey posted:The thing is, while Kvothe is often a gently caress-up, he's a gently caress-up in ways that are generally either non-conflicting with his super badassery, or in ways that enhance said badassery. Much like how 'clumsy' is an extremely common 'flaw' in your generic female fanfic self-insert mary sue, things like Kvothe's being terminally poor, or an rear end in a top hat to the wrong people, they largely only exist as springboard for him to do something gratuitously badass. I'm not sure that "poor" is a character flaw, and I don't think "rear end in a top hat" is quite on the money either. I'd go with "chronic lack of self control." I think maybe the problem you have is that the narrated dialogue and actions of other characters don't punish him for it, which makes it seem like it's not a big deal or that he's righteous in his actions. But he's not. Nearly all his problems are caused by that missing restraint, even if he doesn't acknowledge it. This is the story of an arrogant famous magically gifted genius told by himself and advertised as such from the start. Is it possible to tell that story and not have people scream "Mary Sue!?" Well you could make him say, "but I was wrong," every single time he tells you he's awesome and smart. But that would be inconsistent because it alters his personality and injects wisdom and insight where it doesn't exist. Maybe if instead you set the entire thing against the backdrop of a failed life -- say an famous genius magician who's hosed up so badly that he can't do magic and runs a lovely inn in the middle of nowhere -- then people would realize that it's actually a story of a terribly flawed person without having to be told every 10 seconds?
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Mar 8, 2012 19:10
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isochronous posted:Honestly I think at this point you guys are just looking for things to bitch about. There seems to be some pretty heavy confirmation bias going on in your analyses of his blog post - I think if someone who you hadn't already categorized as a socially inept dirty perv had written that post you wouldn't give it a second thought. Granted the analogy does stretch on a bit, but since it's an *analogy*, what he's really talking about is how much he loved LOTR/The Hobbit, and using the girl to illustrate the myriad nuances of his love for the series. It's a good analogy, IMO. It made perfect sense to me and it got his point across pretty comprehensively. EDIT: @Poster above: Remember that bit where he broke a guys arm because he lost his temper then the doctor and village elder lined up to forgive him because some people just need to have grevious bodily harm inflicted upon them so that they can learn? Yeah.
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Mar 8, 2012 20:04
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soru posted:This is the story of an arrogant famous magically gifted genius told by himself and advertised as such from the start. Is it possible to tell that story and not have people scream "Mary Sue!?" Well you could make him say, "but I was wrong," every single time he tells you he's awesome and smart. But that would be inconsistent because it alters his personality and injects wisdom and insight where it doesn't exist. Maybe if instead you set the entire thing against the backdrop of a failed life -- say an famous genius magician who's hosed up so badly that he can't do magic and runs a lovely inn in the middle of nowhere -- then people would realize that it's actually a story of a terribly flawed person without having to be told every 10 seconds? If you want an example of an author who writes badass characters who truly are deeply flawed/unreliable and aren't portrayed as self inserts, read some work by Joe Abercrombie.
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Mar 8, 2012 20:15
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Evfedu posted:I hear Patrick Rothfuss is a skilled lover of women. He's probably a sex haver so you nerds should back off. Speaking of which I think it needs to be pointed out that Rothfuss basically called people prudes when told that some readers criticized the Felurian parts of Wise Man's Fear, because surely that is the only problem someone could have with that section.
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Mar 8, 2012 21:01
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Above Our Own posted:Yes, it is possible. For one, you could stop having all the characters in the framing story suck his dick. Both main characters in the framing story want something from him, and are nice to him to get it. The other minor townsfolk are polite or indifferent. Above Our Own posted:Second, you could introduce elements in the narration that indicate that Kvothe is not to be admired He's telling his own story -- why would he do that? He thinks he is (was) awesome. Above Our Own posted:Which would require the author to create a main character that was not an idealized version of everything he thinks is good and cool. I can't argue this because you're guessing one way and I'm guessing the other. My take on it is not that Kvothe is everything the author loves. He does a lot of morally wrong things in the story. He hurts people, he acts stupidly, and he loses. This story is a tragedy and I'm not convinced that's how Rothfuss sees his story/life/self. Above Our Own posted:If you want an example of an author who writes badass characters who truly are deeply flawed/unreliable and aren't portrayed as self inserts, read some work by Joe Abercrombie. Abercrombie writes utterly reprehensible characters and does not include them telling their own story. Kvothe doesn't see himself that way so that's not the story he tells. I'm not sure how it relates.
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Mar 8, 2012 21:17
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Argh no I hate the broken up post quoting. But if you really want tosoru posted:Both main characters in the framing story want something from him, and are nice to him to get it. The other minor townsfolk are polite or indifferent. soru posted:He's telling his own story -- why would he do that? He thinks he is (was) awesome. soru posted:Abercrombie writes utterly reprehensible characters and does not include them telling their own story. Kvothe doesn't see himself that way so that's not the story he tells. I'm not sure how it relates.
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Mar 8, 2012 21:30
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The thing is, he doesn't ever seem to be called on it. By anyone. There's no evidence to suggest that he's unreliable at all. When he hurts people, he makes it clear that they deserved it. Every character in the story lines up to nod and tell him how much they deserved it. Then we zoom out and the characters in the framing story tell us how much they deserved it. And we don't have much beyond that, either. Even if there is something else besides the idealized badass Kvothe, there's no sign of it. He never really flinches or breaks character. It's just 100% badass, 100% of the time.
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Mar 8, 2012 21:31
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