The Order of the Stick: T-Rex, Troll Sex and Will Checks

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CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

It doesn't go above the dragon on the family tree, though. So there's an upper limit to how high up the chain this thing will go, and the secondary family effects are limited to direct blood relatives; parents and descendants.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:30

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# ? May 23, 2024 23:26

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

CapnAndy posted:

It doesn't go above the dragon on the family tree, though. So there's an upper limit to how high up the chain this thing will go, and the secondary family effects are limited to direct blood relatives; parents and descendants.

It explicitly calls out cousins. :confused:

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:32

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Strudel Man posted:

A cousin is anyone with whom you share a common ancestor. That isn't limiting - that's what kills off all human beings.

Presumably you think it's restricted to first cousins, which is not demonstrated in the text. But the images also do not support this - particularly, look at the third panel in the second, uh, grouping. It appears to be an entire family there being killed, including an older woman and an older man. Unless all but one of those are siblings to a draketooth (and the one who isn't is the parent), it doesn't stop where you're suggesting.

The text even explicitly says that it kills the siblings and cousins of anyone who bore a child with a Draketooth - such people are not ancestors, descendents, siblings, or first cousins to anyone in what you call the second tier. They are 'cousins' to people in the second tier only in the broader sense that they share at least one common ancestor, and again, this is the 'wipe out all life' condition.

I'm pretty sure it requires a solid line of alive direct relatives to jump to, otherwise yes, it'd get out on the first human/dragon relation and then go up the ancestry tree until it hits a common ancestor of every human on the entire planet. And all half-elves and elves. And orcs. And and and and.

Mystic Mongol posted:

Tarquin's wife died because she was a mother to someone in the second tier (a random Draketooth). If she had another child, it would have been a brother or sister to a Draketooth, and would also die. But even then Tarquin would not be killed, because he wouldn't be a blood father to a Draketooth, just mommy's new friend.

However, it WOULD hit Tarquin, becuase if his wife had bore him a kid, it'd hit her, then the kid, then bounce back up and hit him, then go hit Elan and Nale and really, this probably should've killed even more people than it seems to have.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:33

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Zereth posted:

I'm pretty sure it requires a solid line of alive direct relatives to jump to, otherwise yes, it'd get out on the first human/dragon relation and then go up the ancestry tree until it hits a common ancestor of every human on the entire planet. And all half-elves and elves. And orcs. And and and and.

Well, it can't require living people all along the chain, or else it couldn't have passed from the black dragon founder through the already-deceased draketooths to the currently-living draketooths.

Also, (I edited this into the last page, but it bears repeating here, since people are probably not going to see it there), the draketooth family wouldn't even be in the 'second tier' as described, unless the family was actually founded by the dragon on whom V cast the spell. Which I don't believe is the case?

Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Mar 6, 2012

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:36

Bobulus: Jan 28, 2007

Silly D&D world solution: Gods created world with people preexisting on it, so there isn't a common ancestor.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:41

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Bobulus posted:

Silly D&D world solution: Gods created world with people preexisting on it, so there isn't a common ancestor.

Unfortunately, permitting the connection to freely pass both up or down the family line undoes that. As long as the disparate groups once interbred, it still passes to them.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:45

ShadowCatboy: Jan 22, 2006; by FactsAreUseless

I really hope the Draketooths have a bunch of diamonds. Durkon can resurrect a few clerics, and hopefully they'll be able to rebuild some sort of defensive force by the time Xykon comes in.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:48

Niton: Oct 21, 2010; Your Lord and Savior has finally arrived!

..got any kibble?

Strudel Man posted:

Well, it can't require living people all along the chain, or else it couldn't have passed from the black dragon founder through the already-deceased draketooths to the currently-living draketooths.

Also, (I edited this into the last page, but it bears repeating here, since people are probably not going to see it there), the draketooth family wouldn't even be in the 'second tier' as described, unless the family was actually founded by the dragon on whom V cast the spell. Which I don't believe is the case?

We don't know for sure - it could also be the daughter or grand-daughter of an older, still-living dragon who was the progenitor of the Draketooth Clan. I think it's quite plausible that the Draketooths had some very close relation to that specific dragon.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:48

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Strudel Man posted:

Well, it can't require living people all along the chain, or else it couldn't have passed from the black dragon founder through the already-deceased draketooths to the currently-living draketooths.

Well, the dragon was undead at the time, which is different from just-plain-dead. But

wait poo poo. Draketooth himself is the link from the dragons to most of the clan. Well either he's dead around here or it REALLY should've killed everybody.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:49

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Niton posted:

We don't know for sure - it could also be the daughter or grand-daughter of an older, still-living dragon who was the progenitor of the Draketooth Clan. I think it's quite plausible that the Draketooths had some very close relation to that specific dragon.

Mystic Mongol described a second tier made up of, essentially, the directly-connected - direct ancestors, direct descendents, plus siblings and first cousins. The draketooth line is obviously not direct ancestors of the targeted dragon, nor are they siblings or first cousins. I suppose if the draketooth founder was a descendent of the target dragon, that could work to make the draketooth family all descendents as well...but chronologically, it seems very unlikely.

Otherwise, the draketooths would only be in what Mongol called the third tier, and their partners would not be affected. Since they were, it cannot be limited in the way he described...even apart from the fact that we know the spell kills the families of those partners, which implies a still wider scope.

Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Mar 6, 2012

# ? Mar 6, 2012 00:53

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

Someone should email Rich Burlew about this and get a straight answer.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 01:00

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

This poo poo is getting too confusing and contradictory. Is it too late to ask him give those million dollars back?

# ? Mar 6, 2012 01:13

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

Jesus people it's not a global genocide spell that would be a dumb spell to create and test.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 01:27

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

The spell killed black dragons, half black dragons, and the Draketooth clan.

That's pretty much just the limit of it. Trying to trace too much more of the mechanics is just going to get messy.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 01:30

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Alchenar posted:

Jesus people it's not a global genocide spell that would be a dumb spell to create and test.

Well, obviously. It's just far from clear why it's not a global genocide spell, since the descriptions of what it does all have global genocide as their logical consequence.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 01:35

Vorgen: Mar 5, 2006; Party Membership is a Democracy, The Weave is Not.

A fledgling vampire? How about a dragon, or some half-kobold druids? Perhaps a spontaneous sex change? Anything that can happen, will happen the results will be beyond entertaining.

These latest panels showing the spell killing random people on the street might just be V imagining the spell to be greater in effect than it actually was, in the exact same way you guys are.

Vorgen fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Mar 6, 2012

# ? Mar 6, 2012 01:36

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

This is stupid. It kills people with the black dragons blood and people who share blood with people who have the black dragons blood. Tarquin was neither and would have been unaffected while any and all children he had with Penelope would have bene killed. The spell would not continue following more and more removed bloodlines from the targeted one as that is not how it was described. Trying to endlessly rule lawyer your way into turning it into a global genocide spell based on the word "cousins" is pretty much how you cause the gaming session for the night to end in a stupid fight followed by passive aggressive emails until the group falls apart.

We can safely assume that is some unspoken limit on hitting secondary bloodlines (you shared the same maternal great great grandfather of someone who was in a secondary bloodline, so you would also be killed is stupid), however there is no reading that would even suggest a tertiary bloodline such as Tarquin would even begin to be hit.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 01:45

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

farraday posted:

people who share blood with people who have the black dragons blood.

This is everyone. That's the problem.

I mean, it really gets accentuated when the spell is indicated to kill the other parent of a child of someone affected. Genealogically, that's crazy. Such a person would never be considered to be 'of the same bloodline' as the original target, as such things were reckoned - and yet they apparently die anyway. As do other children of that parent, with still less connection to the original target.

Once that's established, we've already blown past all logical barriers for where this thing would stop, and global genocide looks like the only plausible outcome.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 02:44

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Strudel Man posted:

This is everyone. That's the problem.

I mean, it really gets accentuated when the spell is indicated to kill the other parent of a child of someone affected. Genealogically, that's crazy. Such a person would never be considered to be 'of the same bloodline' as the original target, as such things were reckoned - and yet they apparently die anyway. As do other children of that parent, with still less connection to the original target.

Once that's established, we've already blown past all logical barriers for where this thing would stop, and global genocide looks like the only plausible outcome.

No it isn't, you're being pedantic.

The Draketooths are the bloodline of the original dragon, the parents and half siblings and on down of the men and women they seduce for new blood are the secondary bloodlines. It travels no further. You want it to continue pinballing back and forth to meet some silly made up expectation that you should have given up a long time ago when we found out it didn't even kill all the black dragons.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 02:57

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

farraday posted:

No it isn't, you're being pedantic.

The Draketooths are the bloodline of the original dragon,

How so? They're not descended from the original dragon. They're descended from some other black dragon related in some unspecified fashion to the original dragon. You have to bounce around already to get to the Draketooths.

quote:

the parents and half siblings and on down of the men and women they seduce for new blood are the secondary bloodlines. It travels no further. You want it to continue pinballing back and forth to meet some silly made up expectation that you should have given up a long time ago when we found out it didn't even kill all the black dragons.

Parents and siblings and cousins, yes, all the same things it affected of the original target. It's been pinballing around for a good long while to get the people we see it affecting, and there's no clear reason it would suddenly stop.

I didn't expect it to work that way, originally. I thought it was a perilous idea, but if you just track up X generations (maybe just along the male parentage? I don't know if dragons use a matrilineal genealogy) and then down to all direct descendents, well, that could be plausibly said to kill 'a bloodline' without killing everybody, or without even killing a species. But getting the other parents (and cousins of the other parents!) throws a spanner in the works, and makes the whole thing have no clear stopping point.

Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Mar 6, 2012

# ? Mar 6, 2012 03:07

Rumda: Nov 4, 2009; Moth Lesbian Comrade

lets go back to the description of the spell [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html=here[/url] so we know it targets ANY creature that is part of the targets blood line and then on to all their blood relatives and there it stops notice V doesn't say anything along the lines of 'and so on and so on'.

OK lets say the draketooth dragon is a first cousin of V's dragon it will still be a blood relation to that dragon so it get targeted in the first wave as do its descendants since they ALSO share the originals blood albeit to a smaller percentage, now then this would then rebound to the blood relations of the primary targets, the mothers and fathers, siblings and blood cousins of the draketooth children in this instance and stop there.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 03:22

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Strudel Man posted:

How so? They're not descended from the original dragon. They're descended from some other black dragon related in some unspecified fashion to the original dragon. You have to bounce around already to get to the Draketooths.
Parents and siblings and cousins, yes, all the same things it affected of the original target. It's been pinballing around for a good long while to get the people we see it affecting, and there's no clear reason it would suddenly stop.

I didn't expect it to work that way, originally. I thought it was a perilous idea, but if you just track up X generations (maybe just along the male parentage? I don't know if dragons use a matrilineal genealogy) and then down to all direct descendents, well, that could be plausibly said to kill 'a bloodline' without killing everybody, or without even killing a species. But getting the other parents (and cousins of the other parents!) throws a spanner in the works, and makes the whole thing have no clear stopping point.

The problem is by your understanding of how it works it is either useless or genocidal with no middle ground. Since it is obviously neither you should be questioning your understanding of how it works instead of insisting the person who came up with it is wrong about what it would do.

The bloodline of the original dragon is some indistinct yet definite group obviously not either just the descendents of the target or every single dragon who is related to any ancestor of the original target.

You should not need annotated family trees to figure this out.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 03:40

Sefer: Sep 2, 2006; Not supposed to be here today

Strudel Man posted:

How so? They're not descended from the original dragon.

What are you basing this on again? I don't remember anything that would preclude them from being decended from the dragon V fought.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 03:43

Mystic Mongol: Jan 5, 2007; Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.; College Slice

Strudel Man posted:

edit: Hell, by your analysis here, the draketooth family wouldn't even be in the second tier. Unless the black dragon on which V cast the spell was actually the one to found the draketooth line...(it wasn't, was it?)

It or one of it's descendants.

What, a absolutely powerful, completely amoral, impossibly old creature with near limitless magical power can't turn into a dude and score some cheap poon-tang?

# ? Mar 6, 2012 03:51

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Sefer posted:

What are you basing this on again? I don't remember anything that would preclude them from being decended from the dragon V fought.

The dragon says the young adult killed was her only child. Moreover the young adult itself would almost certainly have been too young to be the Draketooth dragon.

Edit// Although I do find Mystic Mongol's idea that mother dragon liked slapping on a belt of gender change every once and awhile to slum with the lesser races while not considering any progeny that might result as her children to be pretty hilarious

farraday fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Mar 6, 2012

# ? Mar 6, 2012 03:53

Rumda: Nov 4, 2009; Moth Lesbian Comrade

farraday posted:

You should not need annotated family trees to figure this out.

just in case some one does

# ? Mar 6, 2012 04:22

girl dick energy: Sep 30, 2009; You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

farraday posted:

The dragon says the young adult killed was her only child. Moreover the young adult itself would almost certainly have been too young to be the Draketooth dragon.

Edit// Although I do find Mystic Mongol's idea that mother dragon liked slapping on a belt of gender change every once and awhile to slum with the lesser races while not considering any progeny that might result as her children to be pretty hilarious

That black dragon mentions visiting a brother or uncle. That Dragon is presumably the Draketooth one.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 04:23

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Rumda posted:

just in case some one does

Thank god Anel is still alive, Tarquin was probably betting long on that particular climactic/dramatic reunion.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 04:26

Cliff Racer: Mar 24, 2007; by Lowtax

So Anel is what, True Neutral?

# ? Mar 6, 2012 04:28

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

Anel is an awful name. Lane would have been better. But "Anel" is apparently canon, so whatever.

And yeah, TN.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 04:31

girl dick energy: Sep 30, 2009; You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Cliff Racer posted:

So Anel is what, True Neutral?

I still think that if the TN sibling does exist, his name will probably be Alen.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 04:32

Rumda: Nov 4, 2009; Moth Lesbian Comrade

Cliff Racer posted:

So Anel is what, True Neutral?

yep according to the strip

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html

# ? Mar 6, 2012 04:34

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Or the TN brother is actually a sister, Lena. Imagine the dramatic surprise!

# ? Mar 6, 2012 05:05

girl dick energy: Sep 30, 2009; You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Nenonen posted:

Or the TN brother is actually a sister, Lena. Imagine the dramatic surprise!

That... is entirely possible. And we're putting far too much thought into what is likely a throwaway gag.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 07:22

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Rumda posted:

just in case some one does

Note what I said originally: (item in italics added)

quote:

I mean, say Tarquin's one wife (penelope) had given him a child. Not only would the child have died, but Tarquin himself would have died - along with all his children, and all the wives he had children with.

If Penelope had a child with Tarquin, then that child would fall into the Dead side. That, in turn, would drag Tarquin over across the Dead line, by virtue of being the father of someone on the Dead side. Which would then kill Elan, Nale, Anel, Lane, Lena, Aeln, Nela...et al, as well as their mother. And supposing that Anel married and had a kid in some other family, the spell keeps on killing.

Yes, the specific Penelope-Tarquin connection we see would not carry the spell. But it is illustrative of how voracious and all-consuming the spell (again, as described) would be - given how many babies tend to get made, there are enough connections out there that all life would be doomed.

edit: But I commend you on the diagram. Spot-on.

farraday posted:

The problem is by your understanding of how it works it is either useless or genocidal with no middle ground. Since it is obviously neither you should be questioning your understanding of how it works instead of insisting the person who came up with it is wrong about what it would do.

I think it's fairly obvious that I'm saying there's a disconnect between what the spell is seen to do in the world and how its functionality is described. Familicide is not a real thing that exists, so it's perfectly possible for it to 'function' in a way that logically wouldn't result in what it 'actually' does.

Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Mar 6, 2012

# ? Mar 6, 2012 07:56

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Yeah, I propose we file this one under A Wizard Did It and move on.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 08:03

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Strudel Man posted:

Note what I said originally: (item in italics added)

If Penelope had a child with Tarquin, then that child would fall into the Dead side. That, in turn, would drag Tarquin over across the Dead line, by virtue of being the father of someone on the Dead side.

No. It's those of the dragon's bloodline, and people related to those of the dragon's bloodline, not people related to those who are affected by the spell. V outlines it such in the original description. That child would die, because its related to it's part-dragon half-brother, but Tarquin isn't related to anyone part dragon, and thus would live. There's no roll-on.

The guy who described it early on as having two tiers is right. It's not a self-expanding effect.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Mar 6, 2012

# ? Mar 6, 2012 08:06

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Move on? But, but...I have so many charts to make demonstrating the logical impossibility of the D&D-based world...

Yeah, it's not a big deal or anything. Hell, you could rectify it without too much trouble just by saying that the tracking of targets can only change direction (ancestors vs. descendents) so many times. It just struck me reading this one that 'Huh, it sounds like that would kill everyone.'

# ? Mar 6, 2012 08:06

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

I really hope there's a new strip soon.

(EDIT: With my luck it'd just intensify the debate.)

# ? Mar 6, 2012 08:16

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# ? May 23, 2024 23:26

Speedball: Apr 15, 2008

I just want to know if V can pull his karma out of the screaming nosedive it currently is in.

# ? Mar 6, 2012 11:16

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