Count Choculitis posted:

And not only did they talk about the Horizon stuff, they did it in a really good, well-written way. They address the issues like adults who want to work through their problems, and Shepard FINALLY gets to say all the stuff we wanted her to say back then. I couldn't be happier with how they handled the romance, and it completely made up for ME2.


I bought the expensive (for the beginning, at least) automatic fish feeder first. No regrets!

Also, someone on the BSN posted a (contains spoilers) great idea for a different ending which I would have loved.

Wingless posted:

As one of the few people who liked the dream sequence, I'm just going to paraphrase myself from fifty pages ago:

I thought they worked really well, although happened too often. I don't think he was especially upset about that one boy, it was that that one boy was a representation of all the innocent people of the galaxy that were going to die nightmarish deaths and it was entirely on his shoulders to stop them. Shepard tried to get the boy to come with him so he could save him but he failed. The way he slowly burns to death right in front of Shepard at the end is symbolic of his sense of powerlessness against the Reaper's annihilation of millions of people every single day. The nightmares don't start because Shepard saw a boy die, the nightmares start because the loving Reapers have come and deep down he's not sure if he'll be able to do anything except fumble around in the dark watching everything burn.


The problem with the "gently caress you" ending is that it means you don't take advantage of the crucible at all. It may as well not have been built. The options available to you are not from the Reapers or even the God-Child, I think the kid is just explaining what the crucible can do, which is the result of many 'generations' of sentient species efforts to stand up to the reapers. The main problem is that the entire thing makes no loving sense, and while an option to tell him to go to hell with his lame three options would be a bit more satisfying, it doesn't solve any of the real problems with the ending.

Extra Smooth Balls posted:

You don't see them though, it all focuses on that stupid kid.
Which would have been bearable if not for what came at the end.

Toriori posted:

My interest has piqued.

Malrauxs Place posted:

I'm beginning to think that the "one more story"-line at the end of the epilogue with the stargazer and the kid might hint at upcoming DLC. Maybe they're not going to adress the ending at all, and instead release a few "Tales of the Shepard" DLCs where we get to play through Akuze or the Skyllian Blitz or something along those lines.

Toriori posted:

My interest has piqued.

Nelson Mandingo posted:

Not really, because you also commit genocide and wipe out the Geth. The Reapers are still controlling your decisions with a Destroy ending.


I don't know. It could more or less be a symbol of bringing everyone together. More or less you're right though. I still think a "Refuse" ending is something I would pick, even if you couldn't win.

Too Poetic posted:

I actually liked the dream sequence. I thought it was kind of cool to show all the people that Shepard had lost having an effect on him/her

Malrauxs Place posted:

I'm beginning to think that the "one more story"-line at the end of the epilogue with the stargazer and the kid might hint at upcoming DLC. Maybe they're not going to adress the ending at all, and instead release a few "Tales of the Shepard" DLCs where we get to play through Akuze or the Skyllian Blitz or something along those lines.

Aristobulus posted:

In short, the ending of ME3 is like a reverse deus ex machina. Normally, deus ex machinas are used when the characters are in a hopeless situation they can not naturally fix themselves, so the writers just force in a good ending, something happens out of nowhere to solve everything. Well, in ME3, you get an ending where things are GOING to be triumphant if things proceed naturally, then the gods descend from on high to say things HAVE to be poo poo, instead of the characters being pulled from ruins to success in a deus ex machina, they are pulled from success to ruins in a reverse deus ex machina.

And I'm not just complaining because Shepard died and I can't get my storybook ending with Liara/Shep happily ever after. Don't get me wrong, I certainly hate that, but if it was natural, if it made sense and was consistent, I could deal with it. That's why I mentioned Mordin and Thane - I did not like that they died, but it made sense, felt natural and consistent. Shepard dying is not that. They might have intended that, but it wasn't.

Aristobulus posted:

Well, I've been ignoring the thread for fear of spoilers so I could experience the game pure. I finally finished it, and I have to give my thoughts. On the entire game, and the ending. This is gonna be long, , and spoiler filled, but I want to get my thoughts out all into one post rather than dragging it out across multiple pages and discussions, since the thread moves fast and it's hard to stay on one topic. As well, if I make multiple posts instead of one long post, it is more likely to cause derails and just take up more of the thread than one long post that people can skip if they are so inclined.

Feel free to skip my post if you don't like long posts or have never been a fan of my posting. I know there's a few people like that, I've gotten poo poo for it in the past. But some people have cared, so anyway.

I'll start with the game basically in order, cover the ending last.

The game, overall, was amazing. It improved on things I have always wanted, but never expected. The things it did for the characters, their development, and their relationships, is nothing short of amazing.

You actually see the characters living more of their own lives. No longer do they sit around, statically, waiting for Shep to come talk to them whereupon they vomit up a prepared scene and then spit out stock dialogue for the next 20 missions until they have another scene. After every mission, including side ones, the characters will comment on it or be doing something.

You walk in on the characters actually having conversations with eachother, it's not just Shepard centric. More than that, they will actually leave their rooms. I walked into Liara's office once and she wasn't even there. She was in Kasumi's old room chilling on a couch with Garrus shooting the poo poo. The characters in this game feel more alive and natural than they ever did - and this goes for when talking to them too - by that I mean, the voicework is better, the characters have more motion and aren't just statically standing in place nearly as much as they did in ME1 and 2, and attitudes and tones are just better portrayed.

Beyond that, but related - romances are more well done. Provided you picked Liara or the Vermire Survivor, anyway. But I went for Liara, so I'm focusing my post around that. Someone who went for someone else, especially if they went for an ME2 romance, might have had a different, worse experience than me, so I'm throwing that out there. But, anyway - characters constantly referenced that my Shep was romancing Liara. It was just accepted, and you get romantic dialogue between him and Liara more than just the specific few cutscenes on the Normandy. It just felt so much more natural - and I do mean that even normal missions would have dialogue between them for a romance. It always did bug me that in ME1/ME2 outside of the romance scenes on the Normandy, you could not tell at all who Shep was romancing, if any. They really fixed that here.

I mean, I loved the conversation with Aethyta with my Shepard. She taunts Shep about dating Liara, and then even makes fun of Liara - there's a golden set of lines where Aethyta is saying that a political figure needs to look available and sexy to people, and Liara tells Aethyta that "That's not true, Shepard listens to me!" and Aethyta counters with "Yeah...but how many times have you popped his thermal clip? " I lost it there. The delivery on that is great, and it's great innuendo. And even Javik and Wrex and such made comments about my Shep dating Liara.

As for the actual romance with Liara, I loved it. I mentioned how it fleshes out beyond just cutscenes on the Normandy, but as for the Normandy cutscenes? They reminded me of the end of LotSB, they were so well done. There's a lot of adequate talking about eachother and the things coming and it just felt more serious and like there was chemistry between them. It wasn't like shy or awkward, it was just more natural.

There was a lapse in the mid-game where it felt like conversations with Liara just kinda slacked off for a while, but...it picked up near the end. Seeing Liara devastated on Thessia and in her room afterwards - Bioware really managed to pull emotions out of me there. And I'm normally one to really get moved by games or movies, ME is a rare exception. And Thessia - it was bittersweet. I have ALWAYS wanted to get a chance to visit Thessia. And I finally do, and it's ravaged and you can not save it. At least you get a good view of the city in the distance, but one mission where it's being destroyed is not what I wanted, but it managed to really fuel my anger there and make me hate Kai Leng.

Anyway, the final 2 scenes with Liara were great. The sex scene - I really appreciated what they managed to do there. I'm sure a lot didn't, but for me? I felt it was like the sex scene from ME1 except much more well done. That is, the emotion of the scene was really portrayed really well, their talk leading into it and the scene itself was not childish. For example, I've always disliked the Miranda sex scene because it has always felt immature to me, like Shep and Miranda were teenage gently caress buddies. The scene between Liara and Shep felt like more than that. As well, I felt they managed to do a good job of maintaining Liara's "alien-ness" and not just having her be a blue woman. Not only does she mix in some biotic energy and the whole black eyed connection, but the level of detail on her body was really impressive - her skin even looks sorta scaled? At the very least, it doesn't look like blue human flesh.

Then, on Earth, her final scene blew my mind. Connecting with her and actually seeing that strange void was...it was something else entirely. I was just awed by it, I loved the scenery.

Speaking of scenery - I have to mention how well done the game also was on a visual department. There were some absolutely amazing scenery in the game - Palaven's Moon has an incredible view of Palaven and the Reaper in the background, and you get a good view of a Thessian city on Thessia, and such. And there's just lots of effort put into background details on the Citadel and such, lots of interesting conversations to hear, and I really liked the mechanic of coming across an argument between two people and being able to support a side - not to mention that brought about one of my favorites - Joker pestering Liara to know if her head tentacles moved. And then I found out they don't move. Mystery solved!

I WAS disappointed the Citadel was the only real hub, but for what it was, it was really well done.

And I have to mention that the game was just overall good at bringing out emotions in me it wanted to. When Mordin died, that crushed me. I didn't see it coming, I thought I was making a perfect paragon play, and it was still early in the game, I wasn't expecting deaths before the end like in ME2. Then he dies - mid song - and before I could really recover from that Thane gets stabbed and dies too. And they both had really well done death scenes, so even though I hated that they died, it really was a heroic and bittersweet death.

So that done, I have to move on to the ending now. I wanted to go into detail about how the game was really something I loved and moved me before I went into the negative of the ending, so that people don't think I'm just incapable of being moved by the game or unresponsive to what it did throughout.

The ending...it was terrible. It's really, to me, like reliving Lost's ending all over again. I was heavily wrapped up in that show then the ending ruined the series for me. More relevant, it might be really similar to Fallout 3 - another game I barely played but had such a legendarily bad ending that despite that I only played the beginning of it I still know about the ending and the faults with it.

In short, the ending of ME3 is like a reverse deus ex machina. Normally, deus ex machinas are used when the characters are in a hopeless situation they can not naturally fix themselves, so the writers just force in a good ending, something happens out of nowhere to solve everything. Well, in ME3, you get an ending where things are GOING to be triumphant if things proceed naturally, then the gods descend from on high to say things HAVE to be poo poo, instead of the characters being pulled from ruins to success in a deus ex machina, they are pulled from success to ruins in a reverse deus ex machina.

And I'm not just complaining because Shepard died and I can't get my storybook ending with Liara/Shep happily ever after. Don't get me wrong, I certainly hate that, but if it was natural, if it made sense and was consistent, I could deal with it. That's why I mentioned Mordin and Thane - I did not like that they died, but it made sense, felt natural and consistent. Shepard dying is not that. They might have intended that, but it wasn't.

To go into more detail - let me explain. The ending DOES make more sense if you're a renegade Shep, but for a paragon Shep, you have to sit there and listen to this kid tell you that the entire reason things are bad is because synthetics will always war against organics. This is the reason you are given for being forced into the ending. The only reason - and it is TOTAL BULLSHIT for a paragon Shepard, because a paragon Shepard has not only made peace between the Krogans/Turians/Salarians, showing that even organics can come to peace and not always war, but the Geth/Quarians have made peace. Shepard has specifically disproven the only reason you are given for why the ending must happen, so that entire thing falls flat.

Even without a reason, the ending could still be decent. A reasonless ending is bad, but ME3 gets worse. I hear the argument that they wanted a "sacrifice", and that was the theme they were going for - Shepard must sacrifice himself for the good of the galaxy, the greater good. This is what they wanted. This is not what they achieved. Mordin dying is a sacrifice. Shepard dying is so much worse...and here's why.

It's not a sacrifice. Shepard dies, and no matter which choice you make, the galaxy is ruined. Shepard literally does more damage and harm than the Reapers do, no matter what you choose, because no matter what, the mass relays get destroyed and galactic civilization is gone. The writers did not think about the consequences of what they showed here - what the ending they showed means is this - ALL OF THE PLANETS AND SOLAR SYSTEMS ARE CUT OFF. This does not just mean communications, it means MASSIVE die offs. 98% of the galaxy will likely die soon after the end of ME3, if not more. With the Mass Relays gone, there are planets with entire populations with their supply of food and resources cut off.

Ships CAN travel inside of solar systems at a reasonable pace, but once they run out of fuel, that's it. There's no routes open anymore to keep people refueled even then, so even travel inside of solar systems to other planets will only happen for a short while. This means planets will have to rely only on what food and resources they can generate themselves. For a HUGE amount of planets, this is little to none and the population will shrink to a tiny fraction of what it is, or die off entirely. You can't even put hope on just the homeworlds to be sustainable hubs, because Earth, Thessia, Palaven - all of the major homeworlds that could have resources, have been ravaged by the Reapers, and they will not be able to get the resources they need to repair their systems and begin even taking care of populations on their own planet.

In the Sol system, you have the survivors of the battle with the Reapers - they will likely crash land on planets in the Sol system. If they crash land on Earth, then they face competing for massively shrinking resources on a ruined planet that is still smoldering from the Reaper attacks. For the Quarians and Turians, it is even worse because they need special resources that Earth would have even less of. Never mind that all of these people are military people that will never see their families again.

Even Shepard's close personal friends aboard the Normandy are not spared. They may not die immediately, but the ending strands them on a planet where they are promised a slow, miserable lonely existance likely ending in starvation and with their lifespans massively shortened. There is no peace in this ending here.

The BEST outcome, pointed out to me by Torsade, that gets past the starvation issue, is that in the synthetic merging ending, possibly being fused with synthetics means that people might be able to sustain themselves from sources other than food, so they don't have to starve to death. Every other issue still stands - there is still no communication, living resources are shot, and the Normandy crew including Shepard's LI, are stranded alone on a planet with nothing on it. There is no salvation even in this ending.

The Reapers at least would allow new civilizations to sprout from the old ones. There is no hope, the Milky Way is forever ruined, without the Mass Relays. You kill Shepard so that the galaxy may die a slow, painful, ruinous death. Not to save it.

And I don't think the writers intended that. I think they intended for people to be sad about Shepard dying, but feel bittersweet that they had saved the galaxy. I don't think they realized they created an ending wherein Shepard actually destroys the galaxy.

Regardless, none of this is even fitting for ME. There are themes of sacrifice throughout, but for most of us, I think it's been primarily viewed as a heroic action game. Especially for paragons, the theme has been that conflict can be heroically overcome if you try hard enough - Shepard even unites the Rachni with the rest of the galaxy, and the Geth/Quarians and Krogan/Turians/Salarians.

So, those are my thoughts. The ending is terrible and I can go on, but I can't disregard how much I enjoyed everything up to the last 5 minutes. It was astounding and I will still look back fondly on the rest of the game.

What I hope happens now? Didn't Fallout 3 eventually get an expansion that rewrote the ending to be more reasonable? This is what I hope happens. I hope there is enough backlash that Bioware does this, I want an expansion where you can get a proper, reasonable ending - especially for paragons, because the ending as shown, while worse even for renegades, at least the reasons are more sound for renegades, because a renegade may not have united all the races Paragon Shep did, and he can't disprove the assertion that synthetics will always wage war against their creators.

There's a bioware social post making the rounds now about how Shep should've had a 4th choice to use of refusing to play a long, which I think is perfect. It goes a long with what I've always said, a perfect, storybook ending should be POSSIBLE - especially in a heroic series like Mass Effect, but getting it should be about overcoming all odds and be really difficult, which the poster managed to do. The Reapers leaving and the system having to fend for itself, Mass Relays in tact, for them to face the future with hope that Shepard was right and synthetics will not consume the rest of the galaxy, to be a challenge for them to face themselves.

Shepard, for his own part, can survive the ending and return to the Normandy, if it survived if you did well enough, and get a better ending. There is still sacrifice in that ending - sacrifice of order, of certainty of what will happen, for the chaos of the unknown. It is unknown if Shepard is right, but there is hope.

Count Choculitis posted:

The ending may have been disappointing, but you know what wasn't? Kaidan coming back and being more amazing that ever. I felt bad NEVER using any of the new squadmembers, but I've got Garrus and Kaidan back, I was not gonna leave them behind unless forced to. Hence the new avatar.

Darke GBF posted:

I know it's from the last page, but I had to respond to this. Kaidan was loving obnoxious pretty much from the start of the game. he wouldn't shut up about my former ties to Cerberus and just couldn't let it go. When EDI shot him because I was too slow on the renegade interrupt it was almost a relief. But because he had been such a tard about everything up to that point whenever a crew member wanted to talk about him, I would just pick the "he deserved what he got" option. Same with the stupid quarians.

I should've let him die on Virmire, at least Ashley had my back.

Darke GBF posted:

I know it's from the last page, but I had to respond to this. Kaidan was loving obnoxious pretty much from the start of the game. he wouldn't shut up about my former ties to Cerberus and just couldn't let it go. When EDI shot him because I was too slow on the renegade interrupt it was almost a relief. But because he had been such a tard about everything up to that point whenever a crew member wanted to talk about him, I would just pick the "he deserved what he got" option. Same with the stupid quarians.

I should've let him die on Virmire, at least Ashley had my back.

S Danger K posted:

Renegade path Wrex spoilers
http://youtu.be/f9WF0G1Orkk
I had no idea that was going to happen, I mean I knew I screwed him over but I didnt think he would catch on so soon. Sorry Wrex!

NihilCredo posted:

Infiltrator question: is the Black Widow really so much better than the Viper (which seems to be the closest counterpart) or would I be better off dumping those 238k into a ton of mod upgrades?

NihilCredo posted:

Infiltrator question: once you account for the annoyance of weight and ammo, is the Black Widow really that much better than the Viper (which seems to be the closest counterpart) or would I be better off dumping those 238k into a ton of mod upgrades?

Rookersh posted:

I'm going to say it again, and actually say that this should be in the first post, and repeated as many times for everyone who does check this thread, because it's very important, and is less a spoiler, and more of a way to make this game a 10/10 rather then a 7/10.

NihilCredo posted:

Infiltrator question: once you account for the annoyance of weight and ammo, is the Black Widow really that much better than the Viper (which seems to be the closest counterpart) or would I be better off dumping those 238k into a ton of mod upgrades?

deathsuxdontdie posted:

I don't know if anyone's seen it, but the Alliance News Network twitter feed is extremely depressing and explains why emily wong isn't in ME3.

Rageaholic Monkey posted:

Good God. I just lost Thessia, and Shepard's reactions after it happened were just loving soul-crushing. Talking to the Asairi council member and telling her that her entire home world had been lost and we gained nothing from it...well, Jesus

Darke GBF posted:

I know it's from the last page, but I had to respond to this. Kaidan was loving obnoxious pretty much from the start of the game. he wouldn't shut up about my former ties to Cerberus and just couldn't let it go. When EDI shot him because I was too slow on the renegade interrupt it was almost a relief.

Creepy Goat posted:

I... I think Aria just raped me

Avocados posted:

I'm still a ways from finishing the game. I assume I can still get the best ending even without multiplayer?

I obviously haven't reached the ending yet but I'm hoping the Reaper threat is at least ceased? For the first part of the game everyone was talking about sacrifice and millions dying and so on. I figure, even at best, A lot of people are going to end up dying, but hopefully the Reaper threat is taken care of? Looks like everyone is expecting if not facing heavy losses. It looks like the good ending is being able to live another day.

I'm going to still be disappointed aren't I?

Aristobulus posted:

reboot posted:

I found this hilarious quote on the BioWare forums and it pretty much sums up how I feel.

"Its like chasing a girl for 5 years, becoming friends, one drunken amazing night you are about to get it on and BAM! You find out your friend is a pre-op transexual."

ImpAtom posted:

I am reminded. Is Commander Shepard's mother ever referenced if they're alive (based on your backstory)? You'd think that might get actual important resolution considering Shepard's having space PTSD the entire time.

reboot posted:

My understanding is you have to play a bit of multiplayer to get the BEST ending.



I found this hilarious quote on the BioWare forums and it pretty much sums up how I feel.

"Its like chasing a girl for 5 years, becoming friends, one drunken amazing night you are about to get it on and BAM! You find out your friend is a pre-op transexual."

reboot posted:

"Its like chasing a girl for 5 years, becoming friends, one drunken amazing night you are about to get it on and BAM! You find out your friend is a pre-op transexual."

Monday Averted posted:

Wut?