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Dolash posted:Yeah, I figured you'd be excited to see some of these worries addressed (or at least expressed) in-story. It's hard to talk very solidly about how any of this might be resolved, if it ever will be; so much of it ties into unanswered questions. What would going through that door at the end of the game be like? What's killing the Horrorterrors, if that's the truth? What happens to people who die and don't end up in bubbles? As you've noted, these last few pages have more or less answered one of the longer-standing ones: the bubbles are indeed pretty comprehensive as far as beta timelines go. I think that's grounds enough to hope for seeing more sense made of all this as time goes by. The trolls may have more to worry about on the identity crisis front than the humans since their game involved so many more relevant alternates, but I'd say that out of everyone on that meteor, Dave is probably the one who has the most experience worrying about these questions. It's a pity that he's most likely also the one Karkat is least likely to talk to voluntarily. (I would, however, like to see him join the conversation - from slightly in the future, shortly after Karkat yelled at him for interrupting - forcing another text colour reshuffle.)
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Mar 13, 2012 16:14
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Seeing as the residents of the dream bubbles seem a lot more alive than Aradia did as a ghost, I'm going to go ahead and guess that their dead selves have a lot in common with dreamselves. Actually, given that if your dreamself is dead you dream of the furthest ring, it DOES sound an awful lot like it's another dreamself. Maybe dead dreamselves go to the furthest ring and become the people you see in the dream bubbles.
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Mar 13, 2012 16:20
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Color Printer posted:
Nah, he learned the sick fires.
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Mar 13, 2012 18:01
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Dolash posted:There are other concerns too. The dream bubbles don't seem to be the natural afterlife. Feferi mentions having to ask the horror-terrors to glub them up, meaning while they probably captured all instances of dead players across all timelines, this isn't where the dead players were supposed to end up and it's probably not permanent. Somebody's killing the horror-terrors, after all, and it's not unlikely they'll die by the end of the comic. What's going to happen to all these lost souls? My guess is that either Feferi is a bit mistaken on her role in the afterlife(Perhaps the 'dream bubbles' are not the afterlife itself, but merely a viewing lense - which can be represented as something round like a bubble, or a snow glove - of the afterlife through which the living can view and interfere with, and through which people in the afterlife can more easily find each other), or that there is in fact another, much more mysterious afterlife which everyone will go to after the dream bubbles go away. Assuming they ever go away. There is a possibility that they're a permanent fixture once created! ...And if they are really the final destination itself after all, then that might even tie in with the Homestuck "creation mythos" - the kid's actions lead to the creation of a/the afterlife.  Dolash posted:That's not even the end of it! There's even thematic concerns to consider. Homestuck is a coming of age story. It's about growth, developing, growing up, the origins of gods and universes. Any fate which keeps you trapped in the past, in your memories, unable to grow up, is a Bad End. Karkat speculates a little on this, wondering if life is nothing more than a journey to collect the memories that'll provide your backdrop in the afterlife. Life has to be more than this in order to avoid nihilism, so the dream bubbles cannot be a good thing. This only increases the desire to see the dead characters escape/transcend them in some way, a desire further complicated by how packed the bubbles are now. One thing I was only just now reminded of was the Sprites. Nanna was dead for thirteen years, and most likely did not go to the dream bubbles, making her one of the best examples that there is likely an alternate afterlife, which you presumably can be successfully plucked from. Definitely beats oblivion. I don't believe she's discussed much of the period in which she was actually dead, so we have no information on what form it actually takes, however. (And given her jester-and-sprite flightiness with providing mystery, she may be holding back on that.) She seemed to come back as the same person she was when she was alive, in any case. In Aradia's case, she was dead for less than a year. However, it seems her spirit didn't actually move on, to a dreambubble OR the conventional afterlife, and instead lingered. It seems that lingering as a ghost may really do something to your personality. Perhaps the truth is that a part of your soul DOES move on, but a mere shadow of yourself remains, a shade of negative feelings that can't properly move on. What's stranger is how she seemed to maintain some of this when she became a sprite, which supposedly should have brought her back in the same manner Nanna was, but seemed to maintain (some) of the lack of energy and emotion she previously had in life. Entering the soul bot, while not really a proper revival, also gave her a bit more pep, but she was still generally pretty much a well of negative feelings, and still sort of a vengeful ghost sort of person. Only re-uniting with her dream self brought her back 'properly' and closer to the person she was in life. So my theory is perhaps that Spriteification doesn't properly bring back spirits who never properly and fully went to the afterlife in the first place. Possibly, whatever was missing from Aradia when she died actually went to her dreamself, which explains why she was complete as a person again when she was reunited with both of her selves in God Tier form. Maybe that is a 'special case' that happens with players who die before the game in general. In the last case, we had Dream Jade, who was like Nanna, also dead for thirteen years. But in her case, as a player, it was implied that she probably went to the dream bubbles. Probably. But in her case, it seemed that she actually WAS changed by her stay in the afterlife. She forgot about her problems and hopes in life, and seemed to not care to rediscover them once she came back, and in general was at odds with the Jade who was at the same point in her life. This may imply that it IS possible for someone to change in the afterlife. Although in Jade's case, it may not have been a positive change. On the other hand, it was implied that Dream Jade never found John again in the afterlife, which is a bit odd in itself. Did she really go to the dream bubbles? It seems odd for her to have been unable to find John, who she spent her last moments saving, in thirteen years, when Vriska, who lived a universe away and had a less strong connection, managed to find him very shortly. ..Maybe from both Aradia and Dream Jade's case, the actual problem is that if one of your selves is dead from your waking/dream self, then you aren't actually 'complete' in the afterlife. Aradia still had her living dreamself, and Jade still had her living wakingself, meaning both spirits were somewhat 'incomplete' and thus mostly rather negatively-emotioned shades of who they really were. tl;dr: Trying to wrap my head around the afterlife is now even more confusing than ever and I'm not sure what I accomplished by writing all of that. 
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Mar 13, 2012 18:43
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I like that Hussie is actually pointing out how weird this afterlife is. At first sight, it may seem pretty awesome, since you can pretty much do anything you want in the company of anyone you want. As for where the dreambubbles thing is going, maybe they'll eventually all merge and form the next universe, while the B2 Sburb session leads to A1. If the normal way of creating new universes is tainted, using another method, even only once, may be the solution. After all, creating a loop of universes won't keep Lord English contained, he's summoned into a universe, he doesn't physically step over into the next.
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Mar 13, 2012 19:05
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Bongo Bill posted:There's also the matter that only session players seem to get dream bubbles. They dream on Prospit or Derse if their dream self is alive, or, if not, they dream in the Furthest Ring. We've seen one other character dreaming (WV), and it seemed to be a conventional dream, because of course he has no dream self and never did. Aradia points out quite clearly that eventually they move on from memories into something of their own devising. The afterlife is not hell, nor are you trapped.
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Mar 13, 2012 19:18
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The fact that the alpha timeline is alpha because it is the timeline that allows the birth/death of Doc Scratch and the creation of Lord English leads to some horrifying implications. Mainly, how can anybody succeed in killing and defeating Lord English without it becoming a beta timeline?
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Mar 13, 2012 19:31
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Not an Owl posted:The fact that the alpha timeline is alpha because it is the timeline that allows the birth/death of Doc Scratch and the creation of Lord English leads to some horrifying implications. Mainly, how can anybody succeed in killing and defeating Lord English without it becoming a beta timeline? By taking a less linear view of success. The prevailing theory is they'll win by locking him in a time loop of mutually self-creating universes and escaping into a different one. The alpha timeline is that loop; anything within the loop that doesn't feed back into it is obviously beta. But anything that is altogether outside of the loop is neither alpha nor beta as the concepts have been established.
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Mar 13, 2012 19:35
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I wonder if fedorafreak made it to the Dreambubbles. Will the cast ever encounter that dashing Gent of Piss?
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Mar 13, 2012 19:39
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Last night I dreamed that I met a cute girl, and it kind of made me wish I had a "dream bubble" of my own so I could see her again.
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Mar 13, 2012 19:54
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I wonder if we'll ever get a Karkat memo where one of the Future Karkat's realizes the conversation is going off the rails and not how he remembers it going, with the realization that he and maybe the others are Beta Karkats or something.
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Mar 13, 2012 20:49
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Not an Owl posted:The fact that the alpha timeline is alpha because it is the timeline that allows the birth/death of Doc Scratch and the creation of Lord English leads to some horrifying implications. Mainly, how can anybody succeed in killing and defeating Lord English without it becoming a beta timeline? I always thought that the alpha timeline was the timeline that is supposed to have happened, ie, everything that happens is fated to happen, and if it doesn't it's a beta. Maybe the the comic says otherwise elsewhere, but I'm hoping this is the case. I'm really hoping the comic doesn't end back at A1 trolls' universe for a restarting of the loop. Venture into undiscovered country, Homestuck!
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Mar 13, 2012 21:04
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e/ If you don't give a poo poo about my personal neuroses w/r/t Homestuck and/or my take on those of others, you probably won't miss a thing by skipping over this humongous wall of text!Slime posted:Seeing as the residents of the dream bubbles seem a lot more alive than Aradia did as a ghost, I'm going to go ahead and guess that their dead selves have a lot in common with dreamselves. Actually, given that if your dreamself is dead you dream of the furthest ring, it DOES sound an awful lot like it's another dreamself. Maybe dead dreamselves go to the furthest ring and become the people you see in the dream bubbles. Dream Jade certainly went somewhere after she died saving John. Dolash posted:There are other concerns too. The dream bubbles don't seem to be the natural afterlife. Feferi mentions having to ask the horror-terrors to glub them up, meaning while they probably captured all instances of dead players across all timelines, this isn't where the dead players were supposed to end up and it's probably not permanent. Somebody's killing the horror-terrors, after all, and it's not unlikely they'll die by the end of the comic. What's going to happen to all these lost souls? They're probably going to one way or another, considering that thing Zoolooman mentioned. Regarding the bubbles not being natural and the possibility that their existence might not be forever; if that's your flavour of existential dread, I don't really know what to say, since my personal outlook on life doesn't interpret that situation as anything more than a little unnerving. Sure, your future is completely uncertain and you might [might] stop existing tomorrow, but right now there are people to talk to and things to find out about yourself. Philosophy ho! (I don't think I'm a nihilist; more "life has no intrinsic pre-set purpose, so find one for yourself; or just do whatever if that's your thing") Tollymain posted:I just meant like, what makes any of them a more valid "real self" than the others? It's just kind of existentially terrifying. I mean, if they did like this thing where they kind of absorbed into singular dream-bubble identities for each character that would be one thing, but they don't. So in a sense they all are different people. And it's just kind of troubling in a way I find hard to describe. I am not a good philosophy student. This however would be absolutely horrifying. What would happen to all the different people you could have [did, in fact] become? You can't just throw a few thousand identities and sets of experiences into a blender and get a coherent person out the other end, surely? I mean just aaaaaaaaa this is basically mass murder, and not the kind where a bunch of people get to chill out in the afterlife, the kind where they stop being in an individual sense and become no more than echoes behind some other person's sense of self. For the record, dead dream dogsprite Jade getting absorbed into/subsumed by god tier Jade freaked me the gently caress out. Is god tier Jade one person or the other? Or both? If she met any of dream Jade's afterlife buddies, would she be able to talk to them without missing a beat like she did with John, or would she not feel like she was that person any more? Just like dream bubbles don't bother me, I can imagine there are some people who are totally chill with the idea of losing their sense of self, or possibly sort of keeping it (because maybe that's how sense of self works, iunno) whilst suddenly becoming a radically different/older person, but... yeah. If it actually happened to me, I'd probably be okay with it after the fact, and that's what scares me. Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Mar 13, 2012 |
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Mar 13, 2012 21:16
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Lord of Laughton posted:I always thought that the alpha timeline was the timeline that is supposed to have happened, ie, everything that happens is fated to happen, and if it doesn't it's a beta. Maybe the the comic says otherwise elsewhere, but I'm hoping this is the case. I'm also hoping this but I don't think the story is going that way. My best guess is that they'll end up with uu/UU's universe. Also Hussie has joked before that the troll's universe was made by the 48 player squiddle session. Which kind of raises questions about where they came from then and how they ended up in the furthest ring. Or maybe they've just always been there.
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Mar 13, 2012 21:34
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Reading the stuff about everyone meeting doomed versions of themselves and then seeing God Tier Eridan really had me busting a gut! It made me realize that the possibility of an Eridan hitting on another Eridan and STILL being totally rejected is probably very high.
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Mar 13, 2012 21:37
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People are assigning too much agency to the universe. I forget who said it, but several pages back it was summed up nicely. The Alpha Universe isn't part of some plan, it's simply the only universe that doesn't cause a paradox. Paradoxical universes by default are doomed.
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Mar 13, 2012 22:06
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Captain Oblivious posted:The Alpha Universe isn't part of some plan, it's simply the only universe that doesn't cause a paradox. Paradoxical universes by default are doomed. The Alpha Universe is paradoxical. There is the entire concept of 'paradox clones'. The kids Guardians were created by John from a template of the kids Guardians. That is to say, the Guardians are the source of themselves. That poo poo don't fly in a non-paradoxical world.
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Mar 13, 2012 22:17
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The alpha timeline is the timeline that causes itself; beta timelines are all the timelines that don't cause themselves. Just because certain things are called "paradox" doesn't mean they are actually self-contradicting.
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Mar 13, 2012 22:20
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Boogaleeboo posted:The Alpha Universe is paradoxical. There is the entire concept of 'paradox clones'. The kids Guardians were created by John from a template of the kids Guardians. That is to say, the Guardians are the source of themselves. That poo poo don't fly in a non-paradoxical world. Despite the name that's not really a paradox, it's just weird. They're called "paradox clones" because they're made from paradox ghost slime, the stuff you get when you try to appearify something that would cause a paradox if you succeeded. John instantly heading for Typheus and dying, on the other hand, would cause a paradox because so many events (including Terezi's decision to tell him to do so) depend heavily on e.g. his causing the Scratch at the end, instigating Bec Noir's departure from the session. So that's shuffled away to a beta timeline. This gets muddled a bit because failed alternate timelines influence the alpha so often, but it's the basic pattern.
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Mar 13, 2012 22:24
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Boogaleeboo posted:The Alpha Universe is paradoxical. There is the entire concept of 'paradox clones'. The kids Guardians were created by John from a template of the kids Guardians. That is to say, the Guardians are the source of themselves. That poo poo don't fly in a non-paradoxical world. Simple rule of thumb. It's a paradox to kill your own grandfather. It's not a paradox to BE your own grandfather.
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Mar 13, 2012 22:57
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Fagtastic posted:Simple rule of thumb. Correct. They call them Paradox Clones but they're really Stable Time Loop Clones. Labels do not always capture details.
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Mar 13, 2012 23:19
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closeted republican posted:Perhaps there's something Karkat or Terezi still need to do that would facilitate LE arriving or doing something in the future? Scratch seemed to imply that Karkat and Terezi still need to be alive for something during his narration of the Vriska vs. Jack fight. The big thing is probably respond to Terezi's memo on whether to meddle with the kids. Terezi's assurance that it would be worth it and Karkat's subsequent groaning have already happened (in the future) just as Doc Scratch had a picture of John's first conversation with Karkat from Karkat's perspective. Whether there is some sinister plan designating what makes something the Alpha Timeline, the rule I've followed so far is "{Blank} is already here" -Jack is already in the session, so orchestrating the demise of the innocent would have been futile to stop him. -The Knight and Seer already communicated in a memo after the Great Undoing, so any timeline Terezi let Vriska charge towards Jack would have been a beta one. -Lord English is already here, and as much as we'd like to cheer Aradia's ancestor there was pretty much no way she was getting out of that one. Freewillchat: Doc Scratch "...the Critical Event, a confluence of thickly interwoven, aconcurrent circumstances which have been meticulously arranged by myself, influenced to a much lesser extent by you, and by an even more negligible degree, our heroes." Welp.
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Mar 13, 2012 23:43
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Checking in again. Just finished the end of act 5 movie. Holy poo poo. How can this even be categorized as a web comic? It really is such a brilliant use of media, and unique as far as anything I've come across.
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Mar 13, 2012 23:45
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glug posted:Checking in again. I don't know about anyone else, but I know I, for one, only call it a webcomic for lack of better words.
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Mar 13, 2012 23:54
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I tend to think of time loops and paradoxes as wheels, and the alpha timeline is a really long bicycle.
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Mar 13, 2012 23:58
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glug posted:Checking in again. You're not far behind now! It's not a totally unique format - the whole "forums game" thing that it grew out of was around as a fairly popular thing on the internet long before, and of course the massive popularity of Problem Sleuth and especially Homestuck has spawned or inspired lots of offshoots. Still, "comic" is sort of the closest thing there is; really, in some ways it has more in common with the heavily illustrated stories that came before comics. It does make good use of the internet as its medium, though.
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Mar 14, 2012 00:00
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Eox posted:I tend to think of time loops and paradoxes as wheels, and the alpha timeline is a really long bicycle. Smart money says it's a spirograph.
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Mar 14, 2012 00:06
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Bongo Bill posted:Smart money says it's a spirograph. What up.
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Mar 14, 2012 00:08
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Fagtastic posted:Simple rule of thumb. Closed time loops are like page one of fictional time travel paradoxes....Homestuck Alpha is filled with "Predestination paradoxes" and "Bootstrap paradoxes" [What closed time loops are called when they are gussied up and quantified] and all sorts of crazy poo poo. You can say they aren't paradoxes in the way *you* mean paradoxes, but I'm wondering why you think something like the Grandfather paradox is more paradox-y and weird than a closed time loop? The reality is that without causing a Beta timeline in the first place the Alpha timeline never continues [Re: Davesprite]. A timeline that requires outside intervention to keep it's poo poo together doesn't seem very self-contained to me.
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Mar 14, 2012 00:17
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Fagtastic posted:Simple rule of thumb. As an added bonus, this past nastification should prove ample defense against any gigantic brains you might encounter.
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Mar 14, 2012 00:35
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Boogaleeboo posted:Closed time loops are like page one of fictional time travel paradoxes....Homestuck Alpha is filled with "Predestination paradoxes" and "Bootstrap paradoxes" [What closed time loops are called when they are gussied up and quantified] and all sorts of crazy poo poo. You can say they aren't paradoxes in the way *you* mean paradoxes, but I'm wondering why you think something like the Grandfather paradox is more paradox-y and weird than a closed time loop? The Alpha timeline is not paradoxical. Nothing contradicts. The key point is that in a world where time travel exists, something happening because it happened is not paradoxical. Any other outcome is paradoxical. John had to die in a beta timeline to preserve the integrity of the alpha, because in the alpha the motivation for him not dying was Beta Dave's plea. The beta timeline not being created is paradoxical. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Mar 14, 2012 |
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Mar 14, 2012 00:58
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Captain Oblivious posted:The key point is that in a world where time travel exists, something happening because it happened is not paradoxical. That's not why they are considered 'paradoxical' in real life, the absence of time travel. They are a paradox because there is no beginning to the item/information in question. Time travel doesn't logically give things a beginning just because they are in a loop. The kids Guardians come from themselves, because of John...who is made from a mix of Guardians by himself. But what started that cycle? The next words out of your mouth are paradox or religion. A thing that doesn't have a beginning is, by nature, a paradox. It exists because it exists, and has always existed because of it's own existence. It's effect without cause. Just because Paradox Space is fine with that doesn't make it any less of a paradox. Paradox Space, after all, eats paradoxes for breakfast.
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Mar 14, 2012 01:17
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In Paradox Space, there's a difference between being self-caused and being uncaused. That difference is the difference between alpha and beta, approximately.
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Mar 14, 2012 01:23
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Boogaleeboo posted:But what started that cycle? The next words out of your mouth are paradox or religion. A thing that doesn't have a beginning is, by nature, a paradox. It exists because it exists, and has always existed because of it's own existence. It's effect without cause. But why would you need a cause? I mean, the moment time ceases to be linear you've already tossed causality out the window. Edit: Entirely new tangent, but did anyone else initially find pre-reckoning Earth vaguely sinister? The guardians were faceless, silent, and seemed to engaged in exaggerated pantomime of how they *thought* a parent would behave (Mom's cleaning, Dad's excessive baking), and when we see where the kids live, the locations seemed to be more an empty ideal then a real place. I honestly thought that they were already unknowingly in a simulation, and that Sburb was just one more layer in. Cryophage fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Mar 14, 2012 |
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Mar 14, 2012 01:27
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There's nothing terribly paradoxical about the ectobiology thing, really. There is a cause, even if it's the thing itself. Nothing is travelling in a loop (except information, which doesn't matter since it's duplicated perfectly - and mind you, it's a finite amount of information that's only being duplicated once) or coming from nowhere. Self-destructing beta timelines - Daves and Aradias coming in from futures that now "won't happen", and influencing events - are a different matter, though. That definitely does count as a paradox if you're only looking at the alpha timeline.
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Mar 14, 2012 01:32
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Bongo Bill posted:In Paradox Space, there's a difference between being self-caused and being uncaused. That difference is the difference between alpha and beta, approximately. "Self-caused" as stretched to include Beta and alternate game-lines seems a fairly meaningless term in the end. Because that's what the Alpha requires to exist. Cryophage posted:But why would you need a cause? I mean, the moment time ceases to be linear you've already tossed causality out the window. Indeed, and you exist a carefree freewheeling zone where poo poo happens because of craziness and prophecy with no logical beginning or end. Paradoxically. We could call this a....Space of Paradoxes. Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:Nothing is coming from nowhere. John comes from himself because he came from himself. There is no 'outside' that tautalogical reality. John is because John was, and all will be because John is. That is religion, not reality. Which is what Hussie is writing, he's writing a creation myth as seen through video games and other such things. There's no 'logic' to it, because the underlying frame work is myth and not fact.
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Mar 14, 2012 01:39
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Boogaleeboo posted:
But that's not a paradox. At no point is there a contradiction or logical error that renders the loop impossible. And I mean, of course, impossible by the clearly (mostly) laid out temporal mechanics of the world of Homestuck. e: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0BYVRNGoEo&t=1m05s Cryophage fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Mar 14, 2012 |
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Mar 14, 2012 01:46
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Nobody is saying it isn't weird. But the ectobiology cycle in itself is perfectly sound. Obviously closed loops like that are very far from anything observed in actual reality, but hey, fiction. Also, reminder: the beta timelines are still all caused by alpha events and loop back into the alpha timeline in one way or another; and the alpha is distinguished from the betas by being the only one visible from the "outside". This has been established ever since John went for Typheus. There is a meaningful distinction between alpha and beta timelines.
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Mar 14, 2012 01:48
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:Self-destructing beta timelines - Daves and Aradias coming in from futures that now "won't happen", and influencing events - are a different matter, though. That definitely does count as a paradox if you're only looking at the alpha timeline. Given that the Beta timeline Dave is from only existed up until the point where he left it, whereupon it annihilated itself, and that as far as we are able to see Time players can only bring themselves through time (Beta Dave didn't bring Rose back with him for one thing), the whole idea of beta timelines only really exist as an extension of the Time shenanigans Sburb generates as a whole. Cryophage posted:But that's not a paradox. At no point is there a contradiction or logical error that renders the loop impossible. And I mean, of course, impossible by the clearly (mostly) laid out temporal mechanics of the world of Homestuck. I think this is important to note. For example, in the Alpha timeline, John creates himself. It is weird to us, sure, but given the timetravel involved, something's effect preceding it's cause and indirectly or directly BEING that same cause makes perfect sense within the structure of the reality presented. Beta John's existence (and, perhaps, the A1 Trolls' for that matter) is a complete paradox. Since he died before performing the ectobiology that spawned him, he essentially sprung from nothingness, which is a paradox, and so that timeline dies off. Also, you know, Cal Sprite Liv Tyler and other poo poo that don't make no sense.
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Mar 14, 2012 01:53
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Are Dave and Karkat's red the same color? Also, I think it shows great growth for Karkat to use red with himself. I mean, yeah, everyone else knows, but he held onto that gray with a deathgrip.
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Mar 14, 2012 01:56
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