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Meepo posted:Clerics and druids both make good melee combatants if you focus on high strength and self-buffs/wildshaping. That way you can be a get in your face guy and still have the spellcasting to back it up.
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Mar 13, 2012 07:42
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Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I figured I'd go for a Half-Orc Oracle of Battle, since that covers basically every role we're missing right now, and I enjoy Spontaneous casters more than Prepared. I think it's pretty funny how a single Revelation of a Battle Oracle is worth three Fighter Feats.
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Mar 14, 2012 20:49
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Acceptableloss posted:So in my current Pathfinder campaign I'm playing a 4th lvl half-giant battle oracle. I was thinking of taking the Manuever Mastery mystery trait for Improved Grapple, but I've noticed that most things in the bestiary have higher CMD than armor class, so I I'm wondering if this is worth it. Grapple locks down someone using a two handed weapon, as they can't take any action that requires two hands. They end up using their standard to try to break the grapple, and even if they manage it, they can't do much. Kind of lovely for both of you, but our monk uses it to lock people up sometimes.
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Mar 14, 2012 22:41
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GaryLeeLoveBuckets posted:Grapple locks down someone using a two handed weapon, as they can't take any action that requires two hands. They end up using their standard to try to break the grapple, and even if they manage it, they can't do much. Kind of lovely for both of you, but our monk uses it to lock people up sometimes.
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Mar 14, 2012 23:54
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Colon V posted:Tripping is still OP as hell. CMD's probably high because of that. If I recall there was some errata somewhere that said that if you trip a guy, the attack of opportunity he provokes for standing up can't be a trip attack, because he's still considered prone. This means you can't trip him on that AoO, but you get a bonus to the attack roll because he's prone.
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Mar 15, 2012 04:23
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Fudge Handsome posted:If I recall there was some errata somewhere that said that if you trip a guy, the attack of opportunity he provokes for standing up can't be a trip attack, because he's still considered prone. This means you can't trip him on that AoO, but you get a bonus to the attack roll because he's prone. Edit If you do, make sure they have lots of legs. Or Jump Up. Or the tactics/good sense to stay out of melee range. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Mar 15, 2012 |
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Mar 15, 2012 04:49
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Colon V posted:Doesn't matter. You can still trip him next turn. You're essentially denying him half his turn every time, and getting free attacks on him from everyone in melee range. It's even worse if the entire party surrounds the guy to get flanking bonuses + sneak attack from rogues and ninjas + prone bonuses and then if one guy fails to trip, another spends a Hero Point to get a +8 to his trip attempt... This is why I don't throw single strong enemies at my party anymore.
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Mar 15, 2012 05:14
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Father Wendigo posted:Here's my situation: I joined a Pathfinder group a few months back. The group is great, though I'm not really getting into the system; I don't know if it's the system itself or the DM's occasional flights of 'whimsy' (We were going to the 'Plane of the 4 Horsemen,' so our local system buff dropped his Wizard in favor of a Paladin with fat bonuses against Demons. The DM's response? "These are creature type Daemons, not Demons. Those bonuses won't work, sorry!"). To be fair to your DM, those are actually different things. Devils are the LE fiends, Faustian bargain types. Daemons are the NE fiends, death-obsessed nihilistic "bring about armageddon and nothingness" types. (And that is where the Four Horsemen fall in the Pathfinder core setting.) Demons are the CE fiends, rampaging rage and destruction types. It's definitely dumb that your DM didn't say "oh you didn't realize that, okay it works fine with Daemons instead," of course. But they are completely different types of creatures, just with annoyingly similar names.
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Mar 15, 2012 05:31
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^^ Smites don't care though, they just give fat bonuses against evil, and even fatter bonuses against evil outsiders, dragons and undead. Fudge Handsome posted:It's even worse if the entire party surrounds the guy to get flanking bonuses + sneak attack from rogues and ninjas + prone bonuses and then if one guy fails to trip, another spends a Hero Point to get a +8 to his trip attempt... Part of how the system works really, when the whole party focuses its efforts on any one level appropriate foe, the bitch goes down. My impromptu solution was to load them up with about 20-30 more hp per character in the party, and dischargeable defenses against one hit kills for anything that is to be more than a speedbump.
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Mar 15, 2012 05:42
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Colon V posted:Doesn't matter. You can still trip him next turn. You're essentially denying him half his turn every time, and getting free attacks on him from everyone in melee range. You can make a full attack from the floor, albiet with a -4 on each attack from the condition. There's no reason the enemy has to stand up. One enemy whose to-hit is high enough not to care about being on the ground will keep people from surrounding a prone enemy.
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Mar 15, 2012 06:23
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veekie posted:^^ Did he mean smites? Oh, if that's what was going on, then yeah that DM was even stupider than I thought. I figured he was talking about some kind of build somehow specifically focused on Demons.
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Mar 15, 2012 08:32
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Colon V posted:Doesn't matter. You can still trip him next turn. You're essentially denying him half his turn every time, and getting free attacks on him from everyone in melee range. Vicious Stomp makes this even more hilarious, as you get an AoO on them every time you knock them down. Add an arcane caster with Toppling Spell enhancing their magic missiles, and every encounter with two-four legs becomes a slapstick comedy routine.
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Mar 15, 2012 15:24
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Sorry if this has been gone over already, but how's the Soulknife in Pathfinder?
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Mar 16, 2012 04:52
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Superstring posted:Sorry if this has been gone over already, but how's the Soulknife in Pathfinder? Super is asking this on my behalf, and I feel guilty about it now. Hah. In the 5.5 thread, there was a lot of rage about http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife and how it was "underpowered" compared to standard Fighters. I don't get it, but I am admittedly bad at judging classes. Can someone give a quick explanation on Soulknife vs. Fighter, why the Fighter is considered better? Finagle fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Mar 16, 2012 |
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Mar 16, 2012 04:55
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Blade Skills are basically bonus feats except the list is really small. I'd put the class solidly on the Fighter/Rogue/Ranger tier.
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Mar 16, 2012 05:51
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J. Alfred Prufrock posted:Blade Skills are basically bonus feats except the list is really small.
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Mar 16, 2012 06:22
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At 16th level, by which point even a damage-focused Wizard is casting Horrid Wilting instead.
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Mar 16, 2012 06:35
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Yeah, it would be much more impressive if you didn't get it 3/4th of the way through the game. The other problem with a lot of the Blade Skills is that they don't work with full attacks, so if you use them then your damage turns to poo poo. Stuff like Wing Clip would be cool if you didn't have to gimp yourself to use it.
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Mar 16, 2012 07:23
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Soulknife, depressingly enough, was intentionally made to be weak by the demands of the Pathfinder fans. Dreamscarred went through a few alpha and beta builds of it and left it open to crowd support, and the crowd stated that it was overpowered if it was better then the fighter in any way.
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Mar 16, 2012 11:18
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ProfessorCirno posted:Soulknife, depressingly enough, was intentionally made to be weak by the demands of the Pathfinder fans. Dreamscarred went through a few alpha and beta builds of it and left it open to crowd support, and the crowd stated that it was overpowered if it was better then the fighter in any way.
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Mar 16, 2012 12:09
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Hmm. Yeah, both of those are good points. I didn't notice they didn't work with full attacks, and I didn't pay attention to how late some of them came along. Oh well. All I want is a working Psylocke class, is that so much to ask for?!
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Mar 16, 2012 12:52
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Finagle posted:Hmm. Yeah, both of those are good points. I didn't notice they didn't work with full attacks, and I didn't pay attention to how late some of them came along. Play a 4e Monk.
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Mar 16, 2012 15:17
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ProfessorCirno posted:Soulknife, depressingly enough, was intentionally made to be weak by the demands of the Pathfinder fans. Dreamscarred went through a few alpha and beta builds of it and left it open to crowd support, and the crowd stated that it was overpowered if it was better then the fighter in any way.
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Mar 16, 2012 16:07
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This is the soulknife I used to play. BlaineTog was pretty well known on the old CharOp boards over at the WotC website and he loved the concept of the class but hated the execution, so he altered it a bit. It's not horrible, especially when you add in Atatvist (from Races of Eberron) or Warmind (XPH). It can get kind of stupid awesome. Link to class.
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Mar 16, 2012 17:46
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*pant* *pant* *pant* Someone mentioned the soulknife, so I got here as fast as I could. I already wrote up an overview of the class earlier in the thread (in short: Not a good class), but let's go through the blade skills. Alter Blade: For a class whose premise is "bringing power and versatility into any combat", they sure don't have any problem with making you pay for features to actually make yourself versatile Bladestorm: As a full attack, make one thrown weapon attack against each opponent within 30 feet. That could be a lot of attacks, but it won't be a lot of damage since you're hitting each foe once, and though you don't have to worry about range increments, you still have to worry about cover and concealment and the like. And you only get it at level 16 or higher, so at this point anything you could instantly kill with this attack wasn't actually a threat. Bladewind: It's Whirlwind Attack, and suffers from the same problems that Whirlwind Attack does- namely that by the time you can afford it, you can usually make multiple attacks per round, and it's better to hit one guy twice than two guys once unless your single attack is powerful enough to kill a target in one hit. Two guys at half health do as much damage as two guys at full health, but by piling damage onto one enemy and dropping that foe, you ensure that opponent won't hit you back. Combat Slide: A decent source of mobility, even when you've already been moving in the round. Not a bad skill. Deadly Blow: Increases your critical multiplier. Useful. Dual Imbue: Lets you charge both blades at once, but at a reduced cost and you're still at an action disadvantage with charging your attacks. Meanwhile, a rogue can TWF sneak attack at full power and demolish an enemy on the flank. Enhanced Range: It's basically Far Shot, but it's still at a pretty close range. Exploding Critical: Would be a decent source of damage on a critical hit, except for the psionic focus requirement, which puts you right back into a situation where you have to expend actions to keep it up. Extended Strike: Reach is nice. Standard action isn't because you're not going to be doing damage at any decent rate. If this was a swift action that granted you reach for the round, maybe it would be more interesting. Fluid Form: (&Improved): Flexibility, but at a pretty severe cost if you actually try to use it. There aren't any special abilities that are vital enough to make it worth the cost when you compare to just planning ahead. Unless you get jumped by trolls or something, I suppose. Improved version is even more of a "how did you get into this mess to begin with?" situation. Full Enhancement: You're already paying feat and ability taxes for TWF, so why not have some blade skill taxes too? Furious Charge (&Improved): Two blade skills for a poor man's pounce. The dire state of blade skills means that this is sadly an option to consider. Gruesome Riposte: Extra attacks are nice. Psionic focus requirement means you won't be using this as much as you like. Improved Enhancement: More toys, decent enough. Knife to the Soul: Can be useful, though there aren't many opponents where two to three points of mental ability score damage per strike will make a serious difference, especially with the actions required to keep charging psychic strike. You can one-shot animals though, if you're still facing them at this level. Mind Daggers: Why wasn't this part of your core ability? Mind Shield: Hmm... pay a blade skill to receive a shield bonus when your hand is free, or use that free hand to hold an actual shield which you are proficient with and which can be enchanted to boost your defenses further... decisions, decisions. Multiple Throw: Thrown weapons are already the worst way to do damage, so let's make you wait until level 14 to actually do damage with them! Powerful Strikes: A boost to psychic strike damage is fine enough. Reaching Blade: Is somehow better than Extending Strike, despite having a lower level requirement and a psionic focus cost. Reaper's Blade: Useful way to keep your psionic strike rolling along, especially at higher levels. Rending Blades: A couple of points of bleed damage on a critical hit and a small bonus to climb checks probably isn't worth a skill slot unless you have absolutely nothing better to spend it on. Toppling Strike (& Improved): Assuming you're fighting lots of opponents that you have a good chance of tripping, spending two or three blade skills to do so might be worth it if you specifically focus yourself down a trip line. Still is completely useless if you go up against dragons. Trade Blows: Could technically be useful on some defensive gimmick builds, or when you're trying to move into a cluster of opponents, but if you're not built for such things you're better off using your turn to murder things. Twin Strike: Double your fun on two-weapon attacks, might as well take it. Two-Handed Throw: Now two-handers can experience the mediocre joy that is thrown weapon fighting. Or they can just take a 5 ft step and stab the guy. Weapon Special: Are you focused around CMB gimmick moves? Then you'll probably want to pay a tax and take this. Wing Clip: Standard action to immobilize foes for several rounds, but it does no damage, requiring you to either know what kind of opponents you want to put into a cage match with you (wizards) or build yourself around a gimmick to capitalize on foes who can't hit you back by hitting your foe from out of reach. Not a lot of exciting abilities in this list, and more than few are way too much of a tax and should have been part of the class to begin with. It's one of the problems with relentlessly copying 3.5e without thinking about how to fix the original's flaws.
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Mar 16, 2012 21:16
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redstormpopcorn posted:Didn't the Gunslinger end up the way it is for the same reason? I mean, at 11th level Inquisitors get will-save Evasion, Alchemists get a sack full of 6d6 pipebombs, Cavaliers get super-crit sundering charges; Gunslingers get nerfed Bleeding Critical and two deeds rendered useless by a revolver. The opposite, actually. With the gunslinger during every stage (two betas, I think?) there was a very large outcry that it was a horrible mess that just didn't work that well and was bad at what it was meant to do. None of it was fixed at all. Edit: LightWarden posted:Not a lot of exciting abilities in this list, and more than few are way too much of a tax and should have been part of the class to begin with. It's one of the problems with relentlessly copying 3.5e without thinking about how to fix the original's flaws. Again, you can blame the fans for this one. The original alpha for the PF soulknife was really different and could do a lot more. People demanded it be more similar to the horrible 3.5 version, and that it couldn't be better then the fighter. The end result is what you see here. Both of these put together is pretty much why I could no longer take any "fan testing," especially in regards to PF, seriously anymore. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Mar 17, 2012 |
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Mar 17, 2012 01:27
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Overall, the Soulknife fell victim to a legion of grognards. Anyone still got a copy of the beta Soulknife? IIRC that was pretty good. The gunslinger as I understand it was one of the designers having a serious hardon for the sucky version. quote:Knife to the Soul: Can be useful, though there aren't many opponents where two to three points of mental ability score damage per strike will make a serious difference, especially with the actions required to keep charging psychic strike. You can one-shot animals though, if you're still facing them at this level.
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Mar 17, 2012 07:39
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Nostalgia4ColdWar fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2012 05:42
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Mostly I like the Soulknife because "Soulknife playtest" says everything I'd ever want to say about Pathfinder in just two fairly simple words.
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Mar 18, 2012 10:48
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Indeed, more to the point, the thing is people are quite capable of ignoring parts of the game they don't like, so why not just focus on the parts that they DO like? Lots of people hate one playstyle or another, and if you combined all the playstyles that nobody hates...you're left with a formulaic, style that nobody likes. Statistically, you could say they should be looking at the Mode, not the Mean. Nobody likes the Mean.
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Mar 18, 2012 10:51
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veekie posted:Statistically, you could say they should be looking at the Mode, not the Mean. Nobody likes the Mean.
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Mar 18, 2012 11:06
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Mortanis posted:Here's a crazy question I can't quite iron out. When using a wand or staff, what is the DC to save against the spell? It's usually 10 + caster level + casting attribute. With a wand I'm assuming that it's the lowest level to create the wand (for example, caster level 5 for Wizard Fireball), and a staff says it's CL in the description, but do you use the wielder's caster attribute in that case? But yes, the benefit of staves is that you can use your own caster attribute for the save DCs. Wands use the lowest possible stat that still allows you to cast the spell (10+spell level), meaning the modifier used is +0 for level 0 and 1 spells, +1 for level 2 and 3 and so on. gdsfjkl fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Mar 18, 2012 |
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Mar 18, 2012 18:38
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Nanja Monja posted:Late reply, but the DC for saving against spells is 10 + casting attribute modifier + spell level. Caster level doesn't affect it.
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Mar 19, 2012 14:07
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Colon V posted:I still, personally, think staffs are ridiculously overpriced. Correct. In any money constrained campaign (specifically, organized campaigns with specific wealth guidelines per module) they're not really worth the cash. They can be fun as extra magic picked up in a home campaign tho!
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Mar 19, 2012 15:44
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I've been reading the article on Planes on the srd which, although poorly-written, is giving me some pretty neato ideas for my group's next campaign. I'm also going to buy and read Vault of Souls for more ideas. Are there any other good planar adventure paths or modules?
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Mar 20, 2012 00:55
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In the Legacy of Fire AP the PCs will spend some time on an interesting demiplane and in the City of Brass on the elemental plane of Fire. If you can find them the 2nd Ed Planescape books could also be a good resource for ideas. The Well of Many Worlds and Infinite Staircase are just collections of semi-random planar adventures that could be adapted to Pathfinder with a few name changes.
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Mar 20, 2012 01:07
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Good to know. I'll check those out. Thanks!
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Mar 20, 2012 06:55
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Danhenge posted:Correct. In any money constrained campaign (specifically, organized campaigns with specific wealth guidelines per module) they're not really worth the cash. They can be fun as extra magic picked up in a home campaign tho! Wealth-by-level guidelines mean that every consumable you have to spend money on (scrolls, potions, staves, wands, magic ammunition, feather tokens, etc) is a waste because the more you sink into consumables, the less the value of your character's items once those items are actually used. True, for the cost of potions and scrolls it might not seem like a lot of money, but repeated purchase and use burns tiny holes in your character's effective power level. Consumable items really need to be monitored by the DM. Other thing about staves is that you can use your caster level instead of the item's caster level if it's higher, which means you can brute-force your caster level into the 40s or higher with proper optimization of Use Magic Device, and thus can turn a staff with Holy Word or its variants into a no-save-and-die nuke (that bypasses SR since your caster level is ridiculous). You are setting fire to piles of money with every use, but at least you can effortlessly trivialize the boss once you get within shouting distance.
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Mar 21, 2012 02:35
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Right, but in a home campaign you're less likely to be strictly hitting the Wealth-by-level guidelines is what I'm saying. In organized play, you gotta limit your consumable use pretty strictly but in a home campaign I feel like most groups tend to have random treasure sitting around plus you may not have free access to your wishlist at all times.
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Mar 21, 2012 03:11
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wealth-by-level guidelines are royally hosed anyways; eyeball them at best and move on. What was really, really needed was an estimated abilities by level, like at level x you'd be able to raise two stats by 6 and two others by 2 and have an item that grants flying, for example. WBL the vast majority of the time is just a number that "looked right" to the developers anyways, and in some cases can do more damage then good, because quite frankly not all classes need the same amount of money and magical goodies, and trying to keep them "equal" only furthers some of the problems. It was halfway there to a good idea, then stopped and dropped on it's head. So don't adhere to the WBL like you're stuck to it, just keep them in vaguely mind, and don't be afraid to shovel additional items over to the ones that need 'em.
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Mar 21, 2012 06:32
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