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Alteisen posted:The RNG loves the enemies, I especially love getting shocked and frozen at crucial moments in the battle. Let's not forget how much +Stone procs when you're not the one using it. I've lost that "gather the pieces of Lugh" battle so many times because a Badb Catha proc'd +Stone and a Zandyne on a human, only to laugh all the way to an exit square on the same turn.
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Mar 22, 2012 03:28
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Pureauthor posted:My biggest complaint is basically long stretches of time where my characters just stood there helpless while the same enemy unit sometimes got two or even three turns to initiate on me. Yeah, I've had fights become literally unwinnable because of that since it's possible for you to never, ever get a turn; your turns always get pushed back whenever you get attacked. Even if you can't retaliate. It's really a stupid mechanic, and one of the few things I think DS2 just did flatout worse than the first one. The same thing applies to the AI, sure, but they usually outnumber you in such a way that it's irrelevant.
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Mar 22, 2012 03:28
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Rascyc posted:Yeah I definitely felt the humans themselves were way stronger in DS2 than ever before. It made me pretty lazy about fusions later on. My memory of DS1 isn't too great, but I definitely agree with this. I feel like they were built a lot better, Fumi and Jungo are near ideal Magic/Phys builds for example. Fumi was pretty much equal to my MC statwise most of the time.
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Mar 22, 2012 03:29
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Cake Attack posted:Fumi and Jungo are near ideal Magic/Phys builds for example. Fumi was pretty much equal to my MC statwise most of the time. I dunno, with the inclusion of Multi-Strike, Hinako and comes closer to being an "ideal" Phys build. Jungo doesn't get Vit fast enough for an early Attack All for optimum Rage Soul abuse, and his Agility will always be terrible; he hits the 9 Agi checkmark a little too late to get Assassinate at a decent point.
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Mar 22, 2012 03:35
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I actually replaced Makoto with Hinako when I actually saw what Hinako (using Multi-Hit/Strike) + Ares Aid + Pierce could do. Aaaand I just chose to (LAST Day)kill Polaris. This will be interesting.
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Mar 22, 2012 03:38
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Dragonatrix posted:Yeah, I've had fights become literally unwinnable because of that since it's possible for you to never, ever get a turn; your turns always get pushed back whenever you get attacked. Even if you can't retaliate. It's really a stupid mechanic, and one of the few things I think DS2 just did flatout worse than the first one. Yeah. One time I had a party completely and utterly locked down. They got two moves the entire map and were attacked three times by the same enemy party before being able to move. The offending party was an Abaddon with two Ymirs. The party getting attacked wasn't slowboat Jungo either. 
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Mar 22, 2012 03:38
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KataraniSword posted:I dunno, with the inclusion of Multi-Strike, Hinako and comes closer to being an "ideal" Phys build. Jungo doesn't get Vit fast enough for an early Attack All for optimum Rage Soul abuse, and his Agility will always be terrible; he hits the 9 Agi checkmark a little too late to get Assassinate at a decent point. Yeah, but Jungo is the best character.  (I felt like someone might call me out on that, Jungo worked great for me but I never really gave any other Phys characters a chance.)
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Mar 22, 2012 03:52
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^^Jungo is a great Rage Soul, Attack All and Ultimate Hit user but you kind of have to build his entire team around that and Hinako will still outdamage him with Multi-Strike against enemies that don't reflect Physical. Probably the biggest change between DS1 and 2 was the removal of the speed stat. In DS1 all demon led teams had a speed of 35-45 while the slowest leaders you could use had a speed of 50. That's why enemies in 2 take so many more turns. It certainly makes the game harder and honestly, I'll take the possibility of a character getting locked down over escort missions.
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Mar 22, 2012 06:34
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So what affects your team's speed in DS2?
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Mar 22, 2012 06:47
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Speedball posted:So what affects your team's speed in DS2? How many actions you took (attack, move and out of battle skills). Dragons and Viles make it more expensive to attack, and Genmas make it less expensive to move. You're also delayed a bit when you're attacked, and having a Tyrant in the attacking team increases that delay.
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Mar 22, 2012 07:23
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WrightOfWay posted:In DS1 all demon led teams had a speed of 35-45 while the slowest leaders you could use had a speed of 50. I swore I read somewhere that all the humans in this game were speed 50, except for Saiduq, who was speed 65. Of course, I think where I read that was GameFAQs, so it's not exactly the most reliable source. Either way, regardless of if they got rid of speed completely or just revamped it, demon-led teams are a lot faster now.
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Mar 22, 2012 07:58
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The worst is that counter attacking actually consumes whatever resource is driving your turn count. So you can have a unit get flooded with constant counter attacks which delays their turn even more. It's a small problem mid game but it was really annoying when it happened. In regards to Jungo - people love multi strike and assassinate and all but I feel that skills like Deathbound are still really good late game too.
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Mar 22, 2012 17:22
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Yeah my Jungo was doing 2k+ damage through deathbound crits near the end and I wasn't complaining.
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Mar 22, 2012 17:25
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Rascyc posted:The worst is that counter attacking actually consumes whatever resource is driving your turn count. So you can have a unit get flooded with constant counter attacks which delays their turn even more. It's a small problem mid game but it was really annoying when it happened. I don't mind this so much; it helps curb Fire Emblem syndrome where you can send a single character to massacre a whole army. I wish they'd modulated it a bit so that getting hit from a range at which you can't counter didn't push you back a bit: increased attack range is overpowered enough as is.
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Mar 22, 2012 17:29
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The further I get into DS2 the less I'm enjoying it, its not even combat that's giving me trouble as I'm quite powerful, its how the game just roadblocks you sometimes with some enemies, they assume you've been diligently cracking and seem to prepare enemies that are just roadblocks in that regard. Bosses are just obscene sometimes, way to many turns and a gently caress you skillset, especially the humans, good lord. Typical Atlus bullshit which I find myself having less and less patience for.
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Mar 22, 2012 20:43
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Do you have a particular example? I can't actually think of anything in particular. You can always compensate by fusing strong demons anyway, there's such a big variety of abilities on the demons and the flexible inheritance system helps too. Also use evil flow if humans are giving you problems. I would not be surprised if they added evil flow specifically to counter other humans. Honestly I think the biggest game breaker in the final day is probably reflect physical. If you don't have reflect physical for the very last battle, you're probably going to end up doing some kamikaze maneuvers to kill the final guy. [e]Actually I am willing to bet an intelligent combination like a dragon bind/hero combo would probably work well with some outside healing from Goddess' Grace. Rascyc fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Mar 22, 2012 |
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Mar 22, 2012 21:23
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Rascyc posted:Honestly I think the biggest game breaker in the final day is probably reflect physical. If you don't have reflect physical for the very last battle, you're probably going to end up doing some kamikaze maneuvers to kill the final guy. Even with Reflect Phys and Anti-Most on my MC (And Anti-Almighty in NG+), Supernova still oneshotted him on two out of three playthroughs so far, leading to some fancy tricks with Samarecarm piggybacking. The final boss is really just bullshit in several ways. Basically, the name of the game in DS2 isn't so much DPS, like it was in DS1, it's speed and endurance. You want to strike first, and you want to survive counter attacks. Of course, the new turn system (and certain boss-only skills) seem to actively work against that. So... v  v
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Mar 22, 2012 21:31
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KataraniSword posted:The final boss is really just bullshit in several ways. No kidding. I got a real laugh when the annoying physical damage arm regenerated before the character who killed it got his next turn. Fortunately my physical MC killed the main body in two rounds of combat (it helps that he loves to use that deliciously reflectable physical move). Also, I don't know if this is unique to Saiduq's path (it probably is), but I got another laugh when I noticed he was essentially dead weight for that fight. Challenge!
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Mar 22, 2012 21:39
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I think the only real bullshit element to the last fight is that its so physical heavy. I really don't get why they made it so physical damage heavy. At least only one part of the boss has pierce so null and drain will keep your humans alive as long as you don't stand on the platform. I really like the final fight cause it rewards quite a lot of different monster abilities. There's strong synergy in flight, demon speed, phantasm, warp step, goddess grace, evil flow, leap. Not so much when it comes to the usual bad abilities though: possession/ghost touch, and the fairy dust crap. All in all I am still pretty happy with the difficulty curve in DS2, speaking as someone who doesn't like to sleep walk through games and feel rewarded for using the game's mechanics. Rascyc fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Mar 22, 2012 |
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Mar 22, 2012 22:03
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I must be the only goddamn person on Earth that didn't like DS1 much (and haven't even picked up 2 as a result). I love MegaTen games, I love SRPGs, it's just that DS1 had so much utter bullshit between the entire skill cracking system, the demon auctions, and utterly ludicrous roadblocks that I felt the game actively didn't want me to play it. So I obliged. I wish Atlus would give us more handheld MegaTen RPGs, though. Throw together a Strange Journey 2 out of recycled assets and I'll buy the poo poo out of it. I can't wait for P4tG, either (announce it for the US already for Christ's sake, Atlus, we all know it's coming).
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Mar 22, 2012 23:38
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Alteisen posted:The further I get into DS2 the less I'm enjoying it, its not even combat that's giving me trouble as I'm quite powerful, its how the game just roadblocks you sometimes with some enemies, they assume you've been diligently cracking and seem to prepare enemies that are just roadblocks in that regard. Protip: Fallen and Tyrant demons are your friends. With those in different teams, you'll never have to worry about running out of MP. Ever.
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Mar 23, 2012 02:32
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Ryoshi posted:I must be the only goddamn person on Earth that didn't like DS1 much (and haven't even picked up 2 as a result). I love MegaTen games, I love SRPGs, it's just that DS1 had so much utter bullshit between the entire skill cracking system, the demon auctions, and utterly ludicrous roadblocks that I felt the game actively didn't want me to play it. So I obliged. If it makes you feel better, I played through DS1 not too long ago for the first time and was really unimpressed. I didn't think it was an awful game, but it had a lot of things that irked me, and left me fairly uninspired to even give the second one a look.
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Mar 23, 2012 04:46
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Probably the single greatest advantage Devil Survivor has is that there are really only a handful of decent strategy RPGs to play in the first place.
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Mar 23, 2012 06:31
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Rascyc posted:Do you have a particular example? I can't actually think of anything in particular. You can always compensate by fusing strong demons anyway, there's such a big variety of abilities on the demons and the flexible inheritance system helps too. The final boss's final form and Mizar were the only ones I've really struggled with. Most are easily defeatable with the right set-up, so if you're not skill cracking, the game can become a whole lot more difficult. For example, I had trouble with the Dragon stream boss. The fight dragged on for ages, and it kept healing itself with the Swallow attack. Didn't help that I was doing negligible damage. Got fed up, reload, respec'ed, and killed it in one round with a Multi-strike from Hinako with the Pierce. Also, regarding Al Saiduq in the final fight: he is a Septentrione, made/controlled by Polaris, right? It makes sense that his attacks wouldn't harm it. A total bummer, but I wound up using him as support/healing for the final boss anyways--just gave him some of my tougher demons so his party wouldn't be dead weight.
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Mar 23, 2012 07:27
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Ryoshi posted:I must be the only goddamn person on Earth that didn't like DS1 much (and haven't even picked up 2 as a result). I love MegaTen games, I love SRPGs, it's just that DS1 had so much utter bullshit between the entire skill cracking system, the demon auctions, and utterly ludicrous roadblocks that I felt the game actively didn't want me to play it. So I obliged. I'm not terribly sure how you can complain about bullshit roadblocks in DS1 and then turn around and praise Strange Journey.
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Mar 23, 2012 07:43
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Blind Sally posted:Also, regarding Al Saiduq in the final fight To be honest, I was more annoyed about the second half of the fight, where he was busy wedged in the ground and unable to do poo poo. This was before I got with the Evil Flow program.
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Mar 23, 2012 07:49
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KataraniSword posted:To be honest, I was more annoyed about the second half of the fight, where he was busy wedged in the ground and unable to do poo poo. Haha, yeah, I ended that portion in a single round with my MC, so I have no idea how annoying that might have been.
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Mar 23, 2012 07:54
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Heavy neutrino posted:I'm not terribly sure how you can complain about bullshit roadblocks in DS1 and then turn around and praise Strange Journey. Battles don't last as long in Strange Journey as they do Devil Survivor?
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Mar 23, 2012 07:55
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^^^ Yeah, my beef with SJ is the dungeon gimmicks. Holy poo poo, the dungeon gimmicks.KataraniSword posted:To be honest, I was more annoyed about the second half of the fight, where he was busy wedged in the ground and unable to do poo poo. That wasn't so bad; the second part of the fight is pathetically easy and can be ended on turn 1 with Evil Flow. I was just kind of pissed that the game didn't strongly imply it before the fight: Saiduq was my Magic Yin mage and -- with 999 hp and a crapload of MP -- was one of the more dependable and sturdy units on my team. Fumi, Joe and MC were total glass cannons, and it didn't go so well for them. I mean, all of this is par for the course for a MegaTen game, but wasn't it a bit excessive?
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Mar 23, 2012 08:00
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The final boss fight on Daichi's true route felt a hell of a lot harder than AO's route. Not only was absolutely nothing not named Ronaldo doing any damage over 200, Supernova overkilled everything not on Ronaldo's team by several hundred damage. And I was running with a shitkicking demon team whose lowest level was 74. e: vvvv Beelzebub's gimmick is equally annoying if not moreso. 
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Mar 23, 2012 08:05
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Meanwhile, I have suddenly ended face first in the steaming wave of bullshit that is DS2's bonus bosses. God drat, the Lilith fight might be the first time in the game I've sincerely wanted to break my DS. It's not DIFFICULT with high-enough level demons, just unfathomably frustrating.
KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Mar 23, 2012 |
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Mar 23, 2012 08:09
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KataraniSword posted:Meanwhile, I have suddenly ended face first in the steaming wave of bullshit that is DS2's bonus bosses. God drat, the Lilith fight might be the first time in the game I've sincerely wanted to break my DS. It's not DIFFICULT with high-enough level demons, just unfathomably frustrating. I've only peeked at the bonus fights yet -- still playing through the game trying to earn the titles I've missed -- but they look somewhat crazy. The necromancer fight has an army of level 60 demons attacking level 30 civilians whom you must rescue. Fun times!
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Mar 23, 2012 08:17
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Heavy neutrino posted:I've only peeked at the bonus fights yet -- still playing through the game trying to earn the titles I've missed -- but they look somewhat crazy. The necromancer fight has an army of level 60 demons attacking level 30 civilians whom you must rescue. Fun times! Beelzebub is basically phase one of the final boss fight with absolutely everything even remotely forgiving about it removed.
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Mar 23, 2012 08:24
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Heavy neutrino posted:I've only peeked at the bonus fights yet -- still playing through the game trying to earn the titles I've missed -- but they look somewhat crazy. The necromancer fight has an army of level 60 demons attacking level 30 civilians whom you must rescue. Fun times! The Lilith fight one-ups that. Instead of Level 30 civilians, you have L60-75 civilians that you have to protect. Except they all have demons, and are determined to kill you. If a single one dies, you fail. Oh, and the boss in question? Has an Auto Skill that charms any male humans that attack her, 100% success rate. It has something like 25% to 50% success rate on female humans and all demons, which isn't TOO bad, I guess? Either way, guess what? She has Death Call. (Lurker's about right on Beelzebub, give or take, except that he's also plenty happy to abuse Holy Strike and Ultimate Hit to get past your own Phys Repel abuse.)
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Mar 23, 2012 09:20
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drat, I definitely missed out when I failed to save Jungo in my first playthrough; his side story is amazing. "Jungo is the only name I can remember well, so I'll name him Jungo."
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Mar 23, 2012 09:31
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Heavy neutrino posted:drat, I definitely missed out when I failed to save Jungo in my first playthrough; his side story is amazing. This is true. Jungo the kitty is the best part of DS2 by far  Jungo the person is the second best.
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Mar 23, 2012 09:34
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Speaking of bonus bosses, the one I assume is the last. Alice. At the start it didn't look too bad, sure, high levels on everything, as most bonus bosses go. Alice is pretty strong, and as a Fiend she's got that Uncanny Form thing. Also she has a health-draining map based attack. And Belial and Nebiros return, beefed up a bit. Nebiros still resummons dead dudes, and takes them over when he dies. He only summons one at once now though, so it's a bit more manageable. Anyway, you kill Belial and Nebiros, and Alice revives them. I wouldn't be surprised if something else nasty happened, but I got killed soon after. So I'm going to grind a bit I think. I called the cat Cookie this time. It's just not the same.
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Mar 23, 2012 09:48
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The main thing about Alice is that she doesn't have any physical resist and killing her ends the fight, so if you don't feel like screwing around and putting up with her bullshit abilities, grind a team with a leader and an Omega with 40 str and at least 28 agi and Power Hit and Power Charge on each, a Wilder with Might Call and whatever stats and Extra One if necessary (I used Shiva and Ammut), Devil Flash over to her on the first turn, restart if everyone doesn't get an extra turn, Power Charge, Power Charge, Might Call, hope she doesn't use Die For Me! and then proceed to cave her face in with 8 Power Hits or other high-damage physicals like Deathbound. Most other methods seem too much of a pain in the rear end to bother with since she has 20k HP or so which she can recover most of while raping most of your teams at the same time. AnotherGamer fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Mar 23, 2012 |
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Mar 23, 2012 11:24
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Wouldn't a Kishin be a better deal than an Omega? With an Omega you get a maximum of nine potential actions. With a Kishin, you theoretically get 12.
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Mar 23, 2012 11:29
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Probably, but I more or less just stole that cheapass strategy off GFAQs and didn't really give it that much thought. She dies easily enough with just that many attacks and I couldn't be arsed to make a specific Kishin for that purpose, just making the Shiva with right stats and skills took long enough. Kinda pointless to have attacks per turn when nothing can take more than 3 8500+ damage boosted Power Hits. Right, I forgot the passives, which are Phys Boost, Amp and Crit Up for the leader and Shiva and Boost replaced with Extra One for Ammut as stated.
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Mar 23, 2012 13:49
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