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Tallgeese posted:don't simply make a post attempting to attack one relatively insignificant comment, especially when it borders on simply attacking me personally (where does subordination to a higher power even come in here? I never mentioned that at all). Well, considering he restricted that comment to the setting in particular, I think you might be overreacting a bit. The subordination to a higher power comes into play when you allow Polaris to change the world in order to bring about such an order. You're right to a point-- the decision is rigged, but not by the philosophies themselves. It's not as if meritocracy and socialism are unreasonable or illogical. They simply make assumptions about the people who exist within the system. The decisions are rigged in their application and perspective. Yamato's ending, for instance, is a cruel implementation of a meritocracy that takes social Darwinism a bit too seriously. Both his and Ronaldo's endings are contingent on hijacking human nature and rewriting it without the consent of the billions of people this will effect. Regardless of the outcome, this is definitely a transition via an enlightened dictator. This completely contradicts Ronaldo's philosophy, which I found a little ridiculous. Finally, just because someone is predisposed to not want something in a system doesn't mean that it is an unreasonable want. Take a look at Kim Jong-Il era North Korea. Their citizens were indoctrinated and basically treated as serfs, forced to live without even some of the most basic freedoms. Yet, since they were raised within this system in which their only context was propaganda portraying the rest of the world as a horrible place, they were predisposed to believe that their way of life was acceptable. Under your application of this nurture-based argument, this is an entirely acceptable outcome. Is this really something you can condone? Edit: This derail is kinda taking us nowhere, so I'll ask these two gameplay questions: Do I have to do the Gumshoe Memento quest with Airi to get Ronaldo to level 4? Also, is there any specific character who takes longer than the others to get their fate up to 4? I can't find any of the japanese guides, so I'm winging it from where I am now. Kraven Moorhed fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Mar 25, 2012 |
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Mar 25, 2012 17:56
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Kraven Moorhed posted:Edit: This derail is kinda taking us nowhere Well, yes, that's because Tallgeese takes Law-paths far too seriously and will never miss an opportunity to complain about how
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Mar 25, 2012 19:07
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I enjoy reading people's interpretations of different endings in Shin Megami Tensei games, actually. Even if it is like playing Russian Roulette with spoilers, since I haven't played Devil Survivor 2 yet.
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Mar 25, 2012 19:27
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Catalina posted:I enjoy reading people's interpretations of different endings in Shin Megami Tensei games, actually. Even if it is like playing Russian Roulette with spoilers, since I haven't played Devil Survivor 2 yet. Well, Law and Chaos are pretty cut and dry when you strip them down to bare-bones, in all of the MegaTen games I've played. Law: Personal freedom is sacrificed for divine providence and safety, often to the point of making mankind completely devoid of free will Chaos: The world becomes a Darwinian paradise, where the strong prey on the weak and personal freedom is absolute There's... very little variance (though, to be fair, I haven't seen Nocturne's endings). It's surprising how rarely the general theme changes, when one would think a faction based around "chaos" would be more chaotic. Where's our "everyone turns blue and worships trees" ending, Atlus?
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Mar 25, 2012 19:43
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Kraven Moorhed posted:Stuff about endings in DS2 In regards to a higher power... well, can't I then turn around and argue that humanity only turned out the way it did due to the Anguished One guiding them, thus making the point moot? I'm pretty sure he qualifies as a "higher power". He even outright says that he is like God at one point. Actually, there is consent and it's not quite a dictatorial takeover. The entire seventh day is spent ensuring that you get the relative consent of the rest of humanity to pick whatever ending you are going to pick. Outside of your group, everyone else is dead at the time so they couldn't even be asked. I'm not saying that what you wrote about North Korea should be condoned, to be clear. I was simply stating that, technically, humanity being rewritten is not a meaningful loss of freedom, since it has the same effect as just switching one societal philosophy for another on a global scale. My opinion on how good or bad it is did not enter the equation when I made that assessment. --- I'll also answer your gameplay questions. Regarding your spoiler... I am pretty sure you do need to do that, I am sorry. I find that Daichi takes making a lot of right decisions to get up to Fate 4. On my first playthrough with my girlfriend, we got everybody to 4 except him with ease.
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Mar 25, 2012 19:55
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KataraniSword posted:There's... very little variance (though, to be fair, I haven't seen Nocturne's endings). It's surprising how rarely the general theme changes, when one would think a faction based around "chaos" would be more chaotic. Where's our "everyone turns blue and worships trees" ending, Atlus? Chaos is Chaos because it tends to be synonymous with breaking free of control without care for the consequences. I don't really agree with the idea that Atlus unfairly gears things towards Neutral. Those can be the hardest path but I wouldn't say they're the happiest paths. At best, they tend to be a reset to status quo. At worst, you piss off God himself. Hell, Overclocked doesn't even have a "Neutral" 8th day. It has one for Law, one for Chaos, and one for what amounts to Bad End, each of which lets you tailor Law or Chaos or You hosed Up to be more or less harsh depending on your feelings. Tallgeese posted:In regards to a higher power... well, can't I then turn around and argue that humanity only turned out the way it did due to the Anguished One guiding them, thus making the point moot? I'm pretty sure he qualifies as a "higher power". He even outright says that he is like God at one point. You can. Shockingly, that's also a bad thing! That is why the point of The Anguished One's ending is that he is replacing Polaris with someone who won't send minions to meddle in human affairs. TAO's ending is flat-out him taking over the basic maintenance but without the influence that Polaris had, but since Polaris and his folks were influencing humanity from the start it involves a fresh world. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Mar 25, 2012 |
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Mar 25, 2012 19:57
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ImpAtom posted:Hell, Overclocked doesn't even have a "Neutral" 8th day. It has one for Law, one for Chaos, and one for what amounts to Bad End, each of which lets you tailor Law or Chaos or You hosed Up to be more or less harsh depending on your feelings. Gin and Atsuro don't have 8th Days? Welp, there goes my interest in Overclocked.
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Mar 25, 2012 19:59
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ImpAtom posted:You can. Shockingly, that's also a bad thing! That is why the point of The Anguished One's ending is that he is replacing Polaris with someone who won't send minions to meddle in human affairs. TAO's ending is flat-out him taking over the basic maintenance but without the influence that Polaris had, but since Polaris and his folks were influencing humanity from the start it involves a fresh world. And how do you know he is going to keep his word? After all, Yamato even explicitly says that his family was used as pawns by TAO in order to bring about this outcome. He's already betrayed his own creator, making him a Lucifer figure. He really cannot be trusted so blindly.
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Mar 25, 2012 20:06
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Tallgeese posted:And how do you know he is going to keep his word? After all, Yamato even explicitly says that his family was used as pawns by TAO in order to bring about this outcome. He's already betrayed his own creator, making him a Lucifer figure. He really cannot be trusted so blindly. If we're going to go into the "Well, maybe everyone is lying to you" argument, this can't go any further because you can make that argument about anything. There's no indication that he's lying to you. He's a Lucifer figure in that he is rebelling against God, and Lucifer in SMT is usually one of the more honest characters, just also an rear end in a top hat. He was being used as a servant prior to what you do and will continue to be a servant if you don't befriend him. He gave you the power to reject Polaris and defy the Akashic Record and is happy about it even if you have to kill him. Dude is a weirdo but there's no real reason to assume he's secretly playing you, not even an intimidating after-credits message. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Mar 25, 2012 |
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Mar 25, 2012 20:14
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KataraniSword posted:Gin and Atsuro don't have 8th Days? Why would they? Both routes involve getting rid of the demons, so there wouldn't be a whole lot left to do on the 8th Day.
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Mar 25, 2012 20:16
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ImpAtom posted:If we're going to go into the "Well, maybe everyone is lying to you" argument, this can't go any further because you can make that argument about anything. There's no indication that he's lying to you. He's a Lucifer figure in that he is rebelling against God, and Lucifer in SMT is usually one of the more honest characters, just also an rear end in a top hat. He was being used as a servant prior to what you do and will continue to be a servant if you don't befriend him. He gave you the power to reject Polaris and defy the Akashic Record and is happy about it even if you have to kill him. Dude is a weirdo but there's no real reason to assume he's secretly playing you, not even an intimidating after-credits message. I never said "everyone is lying to you", just that figure especially presents the distinct possibility that he is not wholly benevolent. I would point out that Lucifer is far from honest if you don't do exactly what he wants you to do. Need I remind you of the stunt he pulls in SMT1 if you are on any path except Chaos? Since TAO is a Lucifer figure, I cannot see why I should trust him not to try to intervene if it turns out humanity is not evolving in the way he wanted or expected.. EDIT: Sheesh this page is starting to look like an FBI document! Would it be acceptable to you if we say that we can agree to disagree, and leave it at that? It's up to you of course. Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 25, 2012 |
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Mar 25, 2012 20:24
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TurnipFritter posted:Why would they? Both routes involve getting rid of the demons, so there wouldn't be a whole lot left to do on the 8th Day. Character development, man! Maybe dealing with a Yuzu that ISN'T constantly in whinge mode!
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Mar 25, 2012 20:44
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Eh... I didn't like Yuzu, but I found her behavior very realistic for the situation. It's difficult to explain, but the characters in DS2 were comparatively more easygoing, which was harder to swallow.
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Mar 25, 2012 20:46
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Tallgeese posted:Eh... I didn't like Yuzu, but I found her behavior very realistic for the situation. I won't argue that it was realistic! However, I would've liked to see a side that wasn't "shell-shocked teen". As I said before, my problem with DS2's writing is that it could never decide if it wanted to be like its big brother DS1 or its cousin Persona 4, so it kept bouncing back and forth, to its detriment. Regardless of that, the Trumpeter scene is still one of the best comedic MegaTen moments and I will forever love it for that, even if it was a jarring shift of tone at the time.
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Mar 25, 2012 21:06
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Playing Persona 2: IS, just finished the Aerospace Museum. The story has already been pretty insane and entertaining, but Nazis!? Did NOT expect that. Really starting to like it now though, definitely recommend it. E: Aaaand now it got even crazier. I thought I had seen jrpg crazy before, but hot drat. Definitely have a LOT of questions to ask when I'm not typing on my phone. DeathBySpoon fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Mar 26, 2012 |
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Mar 25, 2012 21:37
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Ok, lots of Persona 2: Innocent Sin questions. Pretty big spoilers if you haven't played it yet, but I haven't beaten it- I just want some clarification on what's been revealed so far. I'm currently at the top of the mountain where Yukki's love interest died and she got her new Persona. Ok, so, here are my thoughts / questions / things I don't understand. Feel free to just tell me "It gets explained later," I just want to make sure I get what I should up to this point. -Michel, Tatsuya, and Ginko started the Masked Circle as kids, and thought they killed Maya, Big Sis. Did Maya remember this the whole game? She's been deathly afraid of fire- how did she get out alive? Tatsuya as well, since he was locked in with her. Shouldn't they have recognized each other right off the bat? How much of this did Tatsuya remember? I think him being a silent protagonist here really hurt the scene, because I have no idea how he's supposed to be reacting to any of this. -What was up with Shadow Maya? That happened and then went away so fast that I didn't catch the explanation, nor the reasoning behind Joker's attempt to make them think they killed Maya. -I haven't played Persona 1 yet, but the "Persona Game" is from that, right? Is there any relation to the Joker Game and should I know anything here? (I still plan on playing Persona 1, so please don't spoil it if that would answer this). -Ms. Ideal. Hooooboy. I don't think I understood what she said about that ancient book at all- first it was Nazis and then Aliens? Can someone sum that whole bit up again? Thanks, this game is fun but getting really confusing now. I don't think I've ever seen an RPG get this crazy so fast.
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Mar 26, 2012 15:35
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Does anyone else here "C is for cookie and cookie is for me!!!" when you see the Dragon Stream? Also, what does Health Save do? I've got it equipped but cannot tell.
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Mar 26, 2012 16:36
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I don't want to navigate through the last few pages of spoilers for Devil Survivor 2 since I'm just playing it now, so I have one question. Is it still a good idea to max out the Magic stat on the main character and basically ignore everything else like it was in the first game?
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Mar 26, 2012 16:46
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Adam Bowen posted:I don't want to navigate through the last few pages of spoilers for Devil Survivor 2 since I'm just playing it now, so I have one question. Is it still a good idea to max out the Magic stat on the main character and basically ignore everything else like it was in the first game? I could breeze through the game focusing on Str for my MC with Multi Hit + Drain Hit. Just keep in mind that a couple of guys here and there might show up in the last few days with Reflect, that's when you send your magic users against them. Oh, and make sure you have some kind of mobility demon on you at all times, be it a beast type, avian, dragon, anything.
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Mar 26, 2012 16:55
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Adam Bowen posted:I don't want to navigate through the last few pages of spoilers for Devil Survivor 2 since I'm just playing it now, so I have one question. Is it still a good idea to max out the Magic stat on the main character and basically ignore everything else like it was in the first game? Nope, much more balanced.
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Mar 26, 2012 16:55
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Pierce posted:Also, what does Health Save do? I've got it equipped but cannot tell. It's basically a physical version of Magic Yang, it reduces the HP cost for physical skills by 75% for both teams.
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Mar 26, 2012 18:26
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Pierce posted:Also, what does Health Save do? I've got it equipped but cannot tell. It's like Magic Yang, but for physical skills. It reduces the HP cost of things like Multi-Strike, Piercing Blow, etc. (e:f;b - I knew I shouldn't've sperg'd about MC stats!) Adam Bowen posted:Is it still a good idea to max out the Magic stat on the main character and basically ignore everything else like it was in the first game? No better or worse than Strength. Almighty damage (and Drain, in turn) has taken a bit of an effectiveness hit, and Strength has a bunch of awesome new toys (the Strike skills, Piercing Blow, Ultimate Hit), but really it's a fairly even playing field as far as the main game goes. You'll want Str-based characters and you'll want Mag-based characters, instead of focusing on ALL MAGIC ALL THE TIME like in DS1. As far as MC builds, I'd recommend either raising Str and Agi equally (Multi-Strike is really good, srs) or maxing out Magic and then working on maxing out Vit (with a few points to Agi here and there) Either way, getting the 12 Vit for Phys Repel is a very good thing to look into doing once it's cracked.
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Mar 26, 2012 18:30
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DeathBySpoon posted:Ok, lots of Persona 2: Innocent Sin questions. Pretty big spoilers if you haven't played it yet, but I haven't beaten it- I just want some clarification on what's been revealed so far. I'm currently at the top of the mountain where Yukki's love interest died and she got her new Persona. Ok, so, here are my thoughts / questions / things I don't understand. Feel free to just tell me "It gets explained later," I just want to make sure I get what I should up to this point. Maya remembers the fire, but didn't remember the kids. When she shows up at the end of Mt. Iwato, she made a remark about seeing all the same things and remembering. Tatsuya may have remembered, but he didn't realize Maya, Lisa and Eikichi were the ones involved. Maya's Persona saved her. Remember when she first summoned it, she called it her guardian angel? This is why. DeathBySpoon posted:-What was up with Shadow Maya? That happened and then went away so fast that I didn't catch the explanation, nor the reasoning behind Joker's attempt to make them think they killed Maya. It was born from the rumor that Tatsuya's party are the terrorists because they've been seen at all the places that have been destroyed. DeathBySpoon posted:-I haven't played Persona 1 yet, but the "Persona Game" is from that, right? Is there any relation to the Joker Game and should I know anything here? (I still plan on playing Persona 1, so please don't spoil it if that would answer this). Yes, and kind of. The Persona game is played at the very beginning of Persona 1, and it's kind of similar to the Joker game the characters play at the beginning of IS. DeathBySpoon posted:-Ms. Ideal. Hooooboy. I don't think I understood what she said about that ancient book at all- first it was Nazis and then Aliens? Can someone sum that whole bit up again? The Oxlahuntiku and Bolontiku are aliens from the Pleiades that came to earth on a space ship called Xibalba. The Oxlahuntiku are the ancestors of humanity, but all of the purebloods were eventually killed off by the Bolontikus. Xibalba is buried under Sumaru city, and the Bolontikus are sleeping inside. The book itself isn't actually ancient: It was something she wrote, along with the dead teacher from Sevens (the ghost you see in the clock tower). Most of the ideas come from Tatsuya Sudou (King Leo), who was always sort of nutty. Also Hitler is hanging out with his Last Battalion in Antarctica and they're gonna try to raise the space ship and travel the stars, or something. In other words: A crazy person told a bunch of his crazy ramblings to two other crazy people and they made a book about it. His ramblings involved a couple of common conspiracy theories about Hitler hiding out at the South Pole, plotting his world domination, alien spaceships and the secret origins of mankind, and crystal skulls. It all sounds insane because it literally came from a lunatic. TurnipFritter fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Mar 26, 2012 |
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Mar 26, 2012 18:55
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You also need 12 Vit for Drain Hit, which essentially makes every physical skill in the game cost nothing. Very good for a Multi-striker -- Pierce, Drain Hit and Phys Repel are great passives for it. Be wary of Null Phys and Drain Phys though, if your character has Pierce and their attack is reflected, they'll one shot themselves. Another viable physical build is Rage Soul + Attack All, which will essentially destroy anything that doesn't reflect physical damage with Pierce. It's a worthwhile build for Makoto if you want to use her, because she builds enough Magic that you'll be able to place the big healing spells like Samarecarm on her to use while out of battle. It seems to me like physical characters are the best at taking down the post-game bosses thanks to the crazy damage they pull off against anything that doesn't reflect physical damage but I've only beaten up to Lilith yet so I may be wrong.
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Mar 26, 2012 18:57
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Heavy neutrino posted:It seems to me like physical characters are the best at taking down the post-game bosses thanks to the crazy damage they pull off against anything that doesn't reflect physical damage but I've only beaten up to Lilith yet so I may be wrong. Beelzebub is kind of an iffy case, considering that he reflects Phys after his first form change, meaning unless you want to just sit there and kill him through counter-attacks (he doesn't form-change on his own attack rounds, just if you attack him manually) you'll need a variety of options. Belial drains phys - no problem with Pierce - and Alice has absolutely no Phys defence whatsoever, meaning you don't even NEED Pierce to deal with her. (Instead, Dragon/Kishin abuse is advised, because she only has 1 range, but Die For Me loving stings.)
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Mar 26, 2012 19:08
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Thanks, TurnipFritter- that's a surprisingly sane explanation given the circumstances. I love the way the rumors coming true thing works for the plot.
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Mar 26, 2012 19:38
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KataraniSword posted:No better or worse than Strength. Almighty damage (and Drain, in turn) has taken a bit of an effectiveness hit, and Strength has a bunch of awesome new toys (the Strike skills, Piercing Blow, Ultimate Hit), but really it's a fairly even playing field as far as the main game goes. You'll want Str-based characters and you'll want Mag-based characters, instead of focusing on ALL MAGIC ALL THE TIME like in DS1. Really, the one big thing making phys characters more viable in DS2 is that there aren't a million Rangdas and Murmurs in every loving battle in the endgame like there were in DS1.
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Mar 27, 2012 00:08
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Thuryl posted:Really, the one big thing making phys characters more viable in DS2 is that there aren't a million Rangdas and Murmurs in every loving battle in the endgame like there were in DS1. Well, there's a few battles that stand out - Girimehkalas seem to be obnoxiously prominent at the end of Day 6 (though never as unit leaders, thankfully), and there's a few moments of Rangda units loving up your day. Thankfully, Murmurs got a nerf - they no longer innately have Phys Repel. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that Girimehkala and Rangda are the only units you fight against that have Phys Repel at all, not counting bosses/humans.
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Mar 27, 2012 00:36
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DeathBySpoon posted:Thanks, TurnipFritter- that's a surprisingly sane explanation given the circumstances. I love the way the rumors coming true thing works for the plot. Yeah IS is pretty great. It gets crazier from there.
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Mar 27, 2012 00:44
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I'm in the middle of the third day in Overclocked. I really like how strategy plays out and such; although, if I find a point close to the end of the story where I can stick it to Yuzu, I'm dumping her at first moment's notice. I really don't appreciate how  friendly NPC's can be during battles. A perfect example of this is the escort mission for Keisuke and Midori during Day 2. It took me a few tries, but I eventually got my strategy right to the point where I have the enemies on the ropes and one of the MPC's has fled to safety. The other one has all of his demons dead, but all of my player characters are positioned around to protect him. What does he do? He weaves around and charges one of the two enemy groups left over from their previous spankings and promptly kills himself. 
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Mar 27, 2012 06:25
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OK, so I just got the part where the paths split off in Devil Survivor 2. Can I still get the good Daichi ending even though I didn't get everyone to rank 4? The only people I didn't get to Rank 4 are Daichi and Airi 
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Mar 27, 2012 06:55
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Too late, you needed Airi at rank 4 for that ending. If you have a save from earlier in the day, ignore a Hinako or Jungo event to try and get Airi up, as Hinako and Jungo automatically join on the Daichi path.
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Mar 27, 2012 07:13
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Axle_Stukov posted:Too late, you needed Airi at rank 4 for that ending. If you have a save from earlier in the day, ignore a Hinako or Jungo event to try and get Airi up, as Hinako and Jungo automatically join on the Daichi path. Well gently caress. Time to see Daichi's bad ending I guess.
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Mar 27, 2012 07:18
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Overclocked can still be pretty random when it comes to the ally ai's. First time I did a certain mission Gin got annihilated before I could get close, second time he wiped out the boss and a couple mooks again before I could get close
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Mar 27, 2012 07:22
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Dogbutt posted:Well gently caress. Time to see Daichi's bad ending I guess. Actually: The everyone at Rank 4 ending is more of a Special A+ The Best Ending. You can still get Daichi's good ending if you saw a scene where Daichi, the Hero and Fumi talk about the Akashic Record. Or so I hear. You may have to keep following up on that particular plot thread, I don't know, I'm still working my way through Saturday.
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Mar 27, 2012 07:50
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Buncha new Persona 4 The Golden videos of events
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Mar 27, 2012 16:29
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TurnipFritter posted:Actually: Oh thank god there's still hope. I was about to go Ronaldo's Route! (Which I'm quite iffy about)
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Mar 27, 2012 16:38
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TurnipFritter posted:Actually: There's, I believe, one event on Day 6 you have to run (the one that TurnipFritter mentioned), and then a follow-up on Day 7 after choosing the right character's path. Tico should pester you about it between Day 7 and Day 8 if you're able to get said ending, and then you officially lock yourself in right before the Bifrons/Botis/Black Frost fight.
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Mar 27, 2012 16:43
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KataraniSword posted:There's, I believe, one event on Day 6 you have to run (the one that TurnipFritter mentioned), and then a follow-up on Day 7 after choosing the right character's path. Tico should pester you about it between Day 7 and Day 8 if you're able to get said ending, and then you officially lock yourself in right before the Bifrons/Botis/Black Frost fight. What exactly is this event on day 7? And when does it happen?
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Mar 27, 2012 16:50
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TheLoser posted:I'm in the middle of the third day in Overclocked. I really like how strategy plays out and such; although, if I find a point close to the end of the story where I can stick it to Yuzu, I'm dumping her at first moment's notice. This happens in DS2 as well.  If some NPC says they are going to attack, you need to make sure their demons survive, honestly DS1 had some incredibly annoying bullshit and the 3rd Day boss was probably the least of it.
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Mar 27, 2012 16:56
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