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I think it's an extension of the theme of story elements as in-universe events (see: nth walls, captchalogue fuckery, The Gift of Gab, etc). Everyone involved has choices. They can do X or Y or sometimes Z even, but the story goes the way that it is written to go. Sometimes it's a good story. The characters act with understandable and relateable motivations and everyone feels pretty good about the whole thing. Sometimes it fucks up. It writes itself into a corner and the only way to get out is to contrive events that wouldn't naturally have happened. Beta timelines spring up and Dave's pop out to save the day, crucial information falls into the realm of knowledge from nowhere in particular, dichotomies are presented where none exist, characters act out-of-character and deuses exit the machina. Homestuck is a story written by paradox space and frankly it's kind of lovely but the web-adaptation was alright I guess.
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Mar 27, 2012 22:08
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:First, how does Tavros, Equius, Nepeta and Feferi fit into that, hmm? What did they do that allowed for all of this? Those who died from their own hands because those choices 'mattered' somehow? They were killed by Eridan, Gamzee or Jack. You said yourself that they mattered because of the impact they had on people. I know you meant you, but they had an effect on other characters as well, which means their deaths [or otherwise] could easily cause someone to write an emotional message to the past/future that becomes part of an important established timeloop, which unwritten could destroy their timeline. Psycho Lawnmower posted:...And are you seriously trying to tell me that John would have, on his own inclination, prototyped Bec? Or that Rose would have gone to Scratch for help without being introduced? Both of those weren't the best decisions to make, and we all know that. Hell, John went to prototype that doll just to weaken Jack. Rose knew going to Scratch was a bad idea. They weren't the best decisions in the short term, but it's been shown before that many seemingly insignificant or massively negative actions have effects on the timeline such that their not happening can cause established time loops to fall apart. (Do not ask me to tell you exactly why Nepeta had to die, that is not the point) More to the point, it's the decisions they would have made if they knew what long term effect those decisions would have. Like this essentially all choices boil down to CONTINUE? Y/N Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Mar 27, 2012 |
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Mar 27, 2012 22:18
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I think one thing to keep in mind still is that "A character saying something in a story is not exactly the same thing as the author saying it". Also "Not every character needs to die for some grand and universe-expanding reason, sometimes people just die."Well Manicured Man posted:I'm guessing not fanfiction, but what we'll have to sit through will probably be just as painful. This is pretty nice! I almost daresay it's still not long enough, though, but maybe that's just because I can't listen to it on repeat. (Also where's the music, Hussie????????)
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Mar 27, 2012 22:25
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Alright. What about the Green Sun? Its very existence is what allows the enemies of the players to exist as they do. The con that Scratch devised that the entire game is based around is that these choices-made by the players or not-would ultimately serve to create that power. So if we're being technical, the creation of the enemies is both of no fault of their own, and yet it is their fault. If everything is to exist the way it is supposed to into the Beta Timeline, no one person or group-Trolls or Humans-can be held accountable. You know, except for Gamzee who created Lil'Cal in the first place. Still waiting for them both to get their comeuppance.
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Mar 27, 2012 22:27
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:First, how does Tavros, Equius, Nepeta and Feferi fit into that, hmm? What did they do that allowed for all of this? Those who died from their own hands because those choices 'mattered' somehow? They were killed by Eridan, Gamzee or Jack. Interaction with Tavros, Equius, Nepeta, and Feferi still shaped who the rest of the trolls are as people, and by extension the decisions they make.
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Mar 27, 2012 22:31
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:First, how does Tavros, Equius, Nepeta and Feferi fit into that, hmm? What did they do that allowed for all of this? Those who died from their own hands because those choices 'mattered' somehow? They were killed by Eridan, Gamzee or Jack. Tavros saved Jade's life. Equius built Aradiabot. Feferi made the dreambubbles. Nepeta... I think Nepeta gave Terezi her tablet so she could draw terrible comics? Even if Nepeta never did anything particularly important, though, everything she ever did was still absolutely necessary for the perpetuation of paradox space because if nothing else it contributed to who Nepeta was, and through her interactions with others, contributed to who they were too. And that in turn determined the decisions they made, which determine the course of the alpha timeline. It's backwards to look at the creation of the Green Sun and say "well everybody acted the way they did because it was necessary for the Green Sun to be created", because the Green Sun was also created because everybody acted the way they did. John always acted like John. Rose always acted like Rose. Karkat always acted like Karkat. Nepeta always acted like Nepeta. All it took to fulfill the alpha timeline was for everybody to be themselves.
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Mar 27, 2012 22:55
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:Alright. What about the Green Sun? Its very existence is what allows the enemies of the players to exist as they do. You may have missed the part where Scratch got his comeuppance. It featured his head exploding.
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Mar 27, 2012 23:09
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:Alright. What about the Green Sun? Its very existence is what allows the enemies of the players to exist as they do. Remember that the Green Sun isn't just the source of their enemies, but other First Guardians as well. As Bec shows, not all first guardians are dicks. Sure, he prototyped himself, but he did that to protect Jade from Jack (and destroy the meteor heading toward Jade when she entered). Doc Scratch (and possibly Gcat) seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Doc Scratch is working for English most likely because he is his host (and also probably to ensure his own power source is created in the first place), and Gcat...Well, we don't know whose side Gcat is on yet, nor have enough information about it to make any conclusions. There was that Dialoglog with John and Jade saying that the Green Sun is actually a very important part of Paradox Space, and if they had destroyed it it would have likely hosed existence itself up.
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Mar 27, 2012 23:10
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Ze Pollack posted:You may have missed the part where Scratch got his comeuppance. It featured his head exploding. That was kind of his plan though, wasn't it? 
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Mar 27, 2012 23:15
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Gabriel Pope posted:Tavros saved Jade's life. Equius built Aradiabot. Feferi made the dreambubbles. Nepeta... I think Nepeta gave Terezi her tablet so she could draw terrible comics? Even if Nepeta never did anything particularly important, though, everything she ever did was still absolutely necessary for the perpetuation of paradox space because if nothing else it contributed to who Nepeta was, and through her interactions with others, contributed to who they were too. Remember, Nepeta was Equius's moirail, and that is a very, very important relationship for trolls to have. Equius would have been a very different character if Nepeta was not there. Additionally, she acted as Aradia's server player, and likely had a direct, important role in the fight against the Black King. It's entirely possible that they would have failed to kill the Black King if they didn't have absolutely every single troll (in addition to an absolutely immeasurable number of Aradiabots .)Hell, Tavros's most meaningful impact- possibly moreso than saving Jade's life, even- is how he factored into the relationship with Aradia and the scourge sisters. Their entire character arcs could have been very different, all three.
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Mar 27, 2012 23:28
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So Andrew has a new tumblr entry, mostly talking about that webcomics competition thing, but he also talked about the holdup on the album a bit:Andrew Hussie posted:Oh yeah…
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Mar 27, 2012 23:32
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I think of it like this: Our cast of characters exist, and they through interaction with each other and their environment and their genetics develop personalities and preferences. Eventually some of them play a game, where they have incomplete information as to the game's ultimate scope. Other characters (royalty, agents, scratch, bec, etc), who were also built with personalities and preferences influenced through interactions and genetics, interfere. They influence the decisions of the players, which were already influenced by interaction with their peers. The end result of this big web of personalities and preferences being influenced by each other is called the Alpha Timeline. This timeline stretches across all time and space. When you are able to step back and observe the Alpha Timeline as a whole (or even more than just an instant of it), it might seem that the characters' agency is denied because there is only a single set of actions that make up the Alpha Timeline. This becomes especially poignant when the characters end up creating themselves or influencing their own creation. But in fact if the characters' personalities and preferences and genetics were different, the Alpha Timeline would be composed of a different set of events. That's an impossible "if" from the story perspective because the characters' personalities and preferences and genetics are what they are... In other words, like Gabriel Pope just said, the Alpha Timeline is a result of the characters being themselves. In a different story with different characters a different Alpha Timeline is possible. Beta Timelines are results of decisions the characters make in accordance to their personality and preferences. They are observed by individuals who have power to observe them (seers, time players, others?), who acting in accordance to their personality and preferences decide to rewind to re-influence the decision or take preemptive action to prevent the decision. If the seer or the time player never decides to change the the decision that timeline could conceivably become what we call the Alpha Timeline, but once again the "if" is impossible because of who our characters are. The Beta Timelines end up necessary for the continuation of the Alpha Timeline, because of their influence on the Alpha Timeline. You see this each time Dave interacts with a Doomed Dave, or when Terezi decides to kill Vriska. Even the timelines we observe drifting through the dreambubbles end up necessary to the Alpha Timeline. Beta God Tier Feferi healed WV. Beta versions of the trolls influenced Karkat to type a memo doubting his agency. In a way, you can consider Beta Timelines branches of the Alpha Timeline that eventually feed back into the Alpha Timeline in some way. As for "Beta Timelines" that have no influence on the Alpha, I challenge anyone to conclusively prove such timelines exist. This seems to be the source of Aranea's circulatory system metaphor. If you focus on something specific like John not prototyping Bec, well... Bec is a character with agency and decided to prototype himself because he wanted to protect Jade. Vriska is a character with agency and decided to put John to sleep because she wanted to be a bigger hero. John is a character with agency and decided to trust Vriska because he has a trusting personality. The end result of all these characters with agency interacting meant John did not prototype the doll. Same for the Green Sun. The characters ended up creating the Green Sun because a character with personality and preferences desired that outcome and so influenced other characters into taking actions that would result in The Tumor being deployed and two universes being destroyed. Could characters have made better decisions so as to not have created the Green Sun? If those characters did exist they wouldn't be our characters and the entire Alpha Timeline would be different and would not involve the creation of the Green Sun. But because our characters are who they are, their timeline does involve the creation of the Green Sun. I think that's more wordy than Aranea's explanation.
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Mar 27, 2012 23:35
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Boneless Jogger posted:So Andrew has a new tumblr entry, mostly talking about that webcomics competition thing, but he also talked about the holdup on the album a bit: And by talking about the webcomics competition thing he broke its website. 
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Mar 27, 2012 23:50
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H.P. Shivcraft posted:And by talking about the webcomics competition thing he broke its website. Newgrounds. Check ComixMix. Check are you next?
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Mar 28, 2012 00:03
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Mr. D Bewildering posted:Newgrounds. Check Woe betide us if he ever decides to start using his powers for evil, to take down any website he pleases, like some sort of ironic horseporn loving Batman.
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Mar 28, 2012 00:22
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Mr. D Bewildering posted:Newgrounds. Check deudly tumblr posts.......
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Mar 28, 2012 01:23
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Goddamn, Gunnerkrigg is neck and neck with Penny Arcade. Hell yeah. Edit: hoshit Gunnerkrigg Court (50%, 3,666 Votes) Penny Arcade (50%, 3,666 Votes) Luminous Obscurity fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 28, 2012 |
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Mar 28, 2012 01:27
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Goddamn, Gunnerkrigg is neck and neck with Penny Arcade. Hell yeah. After this weekend with my Ohio narrowly losing to a #1 team in the Sweet Sixteen, I don't think I can handle my Gunnerkrigg Court narrowly losing to Penny Arcade in the Sweet Sixteen of webcomics.
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Mar 28, 2012 01:42
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The right side of that webcomic bracket is what we in the business like to call "a slaughterhouse". Lotta popular comics over there, MSPA should probably waltz to the finals on our end.
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Mar 28, 2012 01:57
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So I think a lot of people are putting a lot of trust in Terezi's ability to perfectly weigh and envision every possible outcome, including the new spider-girl, despite her not even being a God Tier Seer of Mind. Those were probably the two likeliest solutions that she could come up with, based on all the information she had. The operated part of that sentence, though is the second half. Even though she's a Seer of Mind, I would have to imagine she's still subject to bounded rationality-- she's not so much predicting the future as she is predicting outcomes. Those were the two most prominent decisions in her mind, and she didn't so much predict the future as calculate the most probable outcomes. And, in the end, those were always going to be the two most prominent decisions in her mind because that's who she is-- she's the sum of all her decisions up to her point, and while she could conceivably do anything, her the list of things she could conceive of at that particular moment in time is probably a lot less than infinite. If she were a God Tier Seer of Mind, though, I'd be really interested in precisely the level of cognitive precognition she could achieve. People could probably tell her the precise thing they want to end up doing, and I bet she could tell them the exact decision point that will set them on that path. But yeah, this is getting really long winded for me just wanting to point out that people are expecting a lot out of a mythological-role power from somebody who isn't even God Tier. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Mar 28, 2012 |
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Mar 28, 2012 02:53
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Renaissance Robot posted:It's also interesting how this interpretation completely negates the puppetmaster thing Vriska was doing earlier; it doesn't matter if an outside observer 'makes you' do something they saw you were about to do, because you'd have done it even without their interference. While they might claim to have stolen your agency, all that's really happened is they've helped you do something they knew you wanted to do. This is kind of how I always interpreted it. The things that Vriska has caused have never really been her fault. I've interpreted her actions as wanting to be involved in or responsible for her own destiny. More or less the opposite of robo-aradia, who held a defeatist "nothing can be changed so why bother" stance.
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Mar 28, 2012 03:39
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Hey. Hey guys. Hey. What makes the Condence different from Feferi? She's Meenah. 
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Mar 28, 2012 06:04
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Hey, sorry, quick question: Who was Jane's host player? Everyone else during [S] Jane: Enter was doing something... Or was the alpha able to host yourself?
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Mar 28, 2012 06:09
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Keatonguy posted:Hey. Hey guys. Hey. Boooooooooo But yeah, it's funny how one of the nicest (but not the nicest) trolls (well, apart from that whole feeding her lusus thing) turned out to have the one pre-Scratch counterpart who was downright mean, especially since all the others are most likely good guys since they didn't understand violence...hence why they lost. I'm pretty sure she's the problem player Aranea is referring to. Also, I really hope we at least get to meet all 12 pre-Scratch trolls, even if they don't play that big a part in the story. EDIT: A Spider posted:Hey, sorry, quick question: Dirk, or to be more specific, the Auto-Responder.
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Mar 28, 2012 06:09
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JT Jag posted:The right side of that webcomic bracket is what we in the business like to call "a slaughterhouse". Lotta popular comics over there, MSPA should probably waltz to the finals on our end. Also come on SMBC, you can turn this around  .
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Mar 28, 2012 07:23
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I'm laughing at matchups 2,3, 5 and 7 though. Terrible comic apocalypse!
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Mar 28, 2012 07:25
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Keatonguy posted:Hey. Hey guys. Hey.  loving incredible
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Mar 28, 2012 07:38
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Paul.Power posted:Order of the Stick vs. Dr. McNinja. Owch. It'll likely come down to Goblins or xkcd vs. MSPA. It's kinda depressing xkcd gets so much love.
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Mar 28, 2012 11:28
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WAR FOOT posted:It'll likely come down to Goblins or xkcd vs. MSPA. It's kinda depressing xkcd gets so much love. The current poll is xkcd vs. LICD. Give me xkcd over that piece of poo poo any day.
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Mar 28, 2012 14:56
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One of the setting elements that none of the characters seem willing to discuss vis-a-vis free will and agency is that, if you really refuse to do something, time cannot make you do it. Let's say Karkat saw the future (through Trollian, for example) and saw himself murdering Terezi. If he decided he refused to do it, come hell or alpha timeline, he wouldn't do it. Sure, it's part of the alpha, so maybe Dave has to travel back in time and paint himself grey and cut Terezi's head off with a sickle, but that'd be because it's within his character to bend to time's will. Since Karkat wouldn't do something just because predestination tells him directly to do it, however, it won't happen in the first place - he'll never see a shot of himself murdering Terezi, because such a shot would not be enough to get him to murder her. So to that extent, different characters' perspectives on how time works matter, because it makes them more or less manipulable. John's basically immune to this sort of manipulation because he has almost no opinion on time travel, whereas Vriska was an absolute pawn of it. She made Bec Noir, because Bec Noir already existed and it was within her character to see his creation as inevitable and act to be the one responsible. If she was not such a person, she would not have helped create him even if it was inevitable, meaning he could not have been created (the way he was created, at least). Just as an idle aside, it also seems interesting to me that for the most part it's the female characters of the comic who really get into these question. Terezi, Vriska, Rose, Aradia... Karkat's only really just begun to consider them in his latest conversation with himself, and Dave pointedly avoids addressing them (he's smarter than he portrays himself, but he doesn't seem to like it). John, by contrast, doesn't consider any of these questions and seems almost too ignorant and dumb to realize they're a thing, and the narrative keeps rewarding him by giving him what he needs to succeed and propelling him forward.
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Mar 28, 2012 15:24
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From Paradox Space's perspective, refusing to do something isn't different from doing something. Refusing to kill Terezi isn't any more special than suddenly deciding to do a handstand. If it's not in Karkat's character to do something, then the Alpha timeline will never contain that action, meaning it wouldn't be there to be seen by Karkat. Looking at it from the other side: if Karkat sees himself killing Terezi in the future, he will have a reason, that fits his character, to do so.
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Mar 28, 2012 17:37
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TheDemon posted:I think that's more wordy than Aranea's explanation. Now, this all makes lovely sense, I admit this. However, this also makes me question Hussie's own credentials in his story. It feels to me like he's trying to find a loophole for making character death for shock value, a big no-no in a lot of work. Even a character death used to improve another character's storyline is generally considered wrong, also known as fridging.
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Mar 28, 2012 18:34
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:Now, this all makes lovely sense, I admit this. However, this also makes me question Hussie's own credentials in his story. It feels to me like he's trying to find a loophole for making character death for shock value, a big no-no in a lot of work. Even a character death used to improve another character's storyline is generally considered wrong, also known as fridging. I don't think anyone in the story has died for shock value. Comedic value maybe, but not shock value. All of the permanent deaths have resulted from a natural progression of events and choices, after their character arc (if they ever had one) had been completed. It's not like everything was going swimmingly until Jack Noir teleported in and butchered Nepeta because Equius needed something to drive his character forward.
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Mar 28, 2012 19:16
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Yeah, but as said earlier by goons on this same thread, their character and their death influenced every character present on some level and changed their lives. With their death effecting the character, it advanced their plot based on the carcass of the fallen. This is especially true of Karkat and Terezi. And we did have interest in Feferi and the others and they were built up well. Then they were killed to show shock towards their death and show Eridan and Jack as terrible people.
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Mar 28, 2012 19:54
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Seeing that so many Homestuck fans (not anybody in this thread, more on tumblr) are also fans of the Lorax and other bad stuff was confusing at first. Then I realized it fills teenagers' needs for drama, bright colors, and shippable characters, and it's just a coincidence that it happens to be good.
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Mar 28, 2012 19:56
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:Yeah, but as said earlier by goons on this same thread, their character and their death influenced every character present on some level and changed their lives. With their death effecting the character, it advanced their plot based on the carcass of the fallen. This is especially true of Karkat and Terezi. So, are you just mad at Hussie for killing your favorite characters or something?
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Mar 28, 2012 20:20
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Happy Yeti posted:From Paradox Space's perspective, refusing to do something isn't different from doing something. Refusing to kill Terezi isn't any more special than suddenly deciding to do a handstand. That still admits a certain amount of agency to the individual though. You will only do those things that are in character for you to do. If you don't like what actions fate is propelling you toward performing, escaping them is merely a matter of changing your character. One of the most critical changes is being resistant to the argument of predestination. Aradia was totally enslaved to it, and she was so enslaved because her character was fatalistic - she believed time had an unbreakable grip on her fate, and because she believed it it effectively did. She'd do anything if she thought that's what destiny had in store for her.
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Mar 28, 2012 20:39
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:a character death used to improve another character's storyline is generally considered wrong Why?
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Mar 28, 2012 20:45
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Dolash posted:If you don't like what actions fate is propelling you toward performing, escaping them is merely a matter of changing your character. As for changing your character, if it's even possible, I wouldn't say it's merely a minor problem.
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Mar 28, 2012 21:17
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:The current poll is xkcd vs. LICD. Give me xkcd over that piece of poo poo any day. LICD has to be one of the worst webcomics online, but I just cannot bring myself to enjoy xkcd. It's the lesser of two evils in this round, but I hope it doesn't make it beyond the next.
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Mar 28, 2012 21:53
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