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Looking backwards in the brackets, how did Dominic Deegan beat Achewood in the first round? Or for that matter, how did VG Cats beat Axe Cop? (Which is a shame, because xkcd has had no serious competition so far. Seriously, Misfile, VGCats, and LICD all in a row?)
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Mar 28, 2012 22:20
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No loving clue about Dominic Deegan, but VG Cats still has a lot of name recognition.
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Mar 28, 2012 22:26
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Because Dominic Deegan has an active fanbase and updates five times a week, while Achewood has updated nine times in the past year.
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Mar 28, 2012 22:29
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Mystic Mongol posted:Because Dominic Deegan has an active fanbase and updates five times a week, while Achewood has updated nine times in the past year. Add to that that most Achewood fans think the creator is a borderline-crazy sleazeball, and, well...
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Mar 28, 2012 22:33
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:Now, this all makes lovely sense, I admit this. However, this also makes me question Hussie's own credentials in his story. It feels to me like he's trying to find a loophole for making character death for shock value, a big no-no in a lot of work. Even a character death used to improve another character's storyline is generally considered wrong, also known as fridging. Would you say that your concept of "shock value" means that killing certain characters was done mostly because of the impact on the audience at the time of death rather than the impact on the story as a whole? What effect can a character's life and death have on a story except through the influence of their actions on other characters and the influence of the event of their death on other characters? (I think you have mis-defined fridging here, but admit no great familiarity with the term. I would argue it refers to the killing of minor characters with the sole purpose of shocking major characters at the time the death is discovered, in a similar manner to how deaths shock the audience at the time the audience discovers the death.) I think part of the disquiet with "pointless" deaths in Homestuck is that the influences of the characters' lives and deaths on the story as a whole have yet to be taken to a conclusion. Karkat has just begun reflecting on the purpose of the lives and deaths of him and his friends, thanks his realization that he's involved in an ostensibly fixed timeline. Hussie has been purposely hiding Gamzee from us. Feferi's and Sollux's influences didn't end with their deaths, and neither did their capacity for action. Same with Meenah and Aranea. I think it's reasonable to claim that the full story has not yet been written. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Mar 28, 2012 |
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Mar 28, 2012 22:44
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King of Solomon posted:So, are you just mad at Hussie for killing your favorite characters or something? No, it's not the characters themselves that piss me off about his writing or that I'm pissed that characters are dead; people die in a lot of stories and for lots of different reasons. I'm accepting of that. What I'm annoyed to accept is how Hussie views death and uses it to tell his narrative. Back in Problem Sleuth, death was used as a device to portray development or dramatic change from one character to the rest of the series as a whole. the third Ace Dick died in the first battle with Mobster Kingpin, but what he did not only effected the defeat of that character, but also changed the game itself into his second form. When death is used in narrative, it should have individual weight for the narrative and somehow influence the plot as a whole. When you kill someone important, that death should have some meaning for them and the story at large, not just as a foil for others. When Tavros died, what had been accomplished from that death and how did it change everyone? It really didn't. He didn't accomplish anything, and a lot of the people didn't like him because he seemed useless. That doesn't mean you just kill them off because they are unpopular. Many trolls were killed-when the audience had enough time to appreciate them as characters-when they were done and could have added more to the plot, in an attempt to be rid of the back half when more could have been made of it. Death is a really touchy thing in stories, and should be wielded with a light touch, not with the bludgeon Hussie tends to regard. Fister Roboto: That kind of narrative convention is generally known as Fridging, or Stuffed In The Fridge. It refers to using another character's death to expand the development of another character by turning said dead character into a plot device. While generally used for female characters in comics-made famous by Kyle Raynor's girlfriend, it can apply to males as well. It is not well-received. And sure, Demon. I agree with that, but I also see that things are taking a turn towards some shaky territory, and I figured some exposure might be warranted. Psycho Lawnmower fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Mar 28, 2012 |
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Mar 28, 2012 22:55
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Those sure are a lot of Opinions being treated as gospel with nothing but a loving TvTropes page to back them up.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:01
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Oxxidation posted:Those sure are a lot of Opinions being treated as gospel with nothing but a loving TvTropes page to back them up. Yeah, no, the fridge thing is a legitimate awful thing that happens in fiction and has been around for a long time. Just because TVTropes says the sky is blue doesn't mean it's neon turquoise. Actual, legitimate writers talk about it and everything.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:05
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:No, it's not the characters themselves that piss me off about his writing or that I'm pissed that characters are dead; people die in a lot of stories and for lots of different reasons. I'm accepting of that. Psycho Lawnmower posted:When death is used in narrative, it should have individual weight for the narrative and somehow influence the plot as a whole. When you kill someone important, that death should have some meaning for them and the story at large, not just as a foil for others. These two statements contradict each other. That said, I think too many stories have treated death as "Something that only happens when it's excessively meaningful and poignant", and thus I think a lot of readers now unfortunately really look into it way too much and get overly finicky when characters die. Fridging is a tangible problem in the medium where it originated(print comics), but unfortunately now it's become an all-purpose criticism people use as a bludgeon whenever someone dies for any reason in any medium. Not every death is a specifically-orchestrated puppetmaster scheme by the author to emotionally manipulate his characters and reader base(well, it is if you're reading "Prequel", as it's author admits.), sometimes characters die because another character is an rear end in a top hat who kills people.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:09
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King of Solomon posted:So, are you just mad at Hussie for killing your favorite characters or something? Look, I just wanted Equius' slam poetry in every other chatlog, is that so bad?
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Mar 28, 2012 23:09
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:When Tavros died, what had been accomplished from that death and how did it change everyone? It really didn't. He didn't accomplish anything, and a lot of the people didn't like him because he seemed useless. That doesn't mean you just kill them off because they are unpopular. Many trolls were killed-when the audience had enough time to appreciate them as characters-when they were done and could have added more to the plot, in an attempt to be rid of the back half when more could have been made of it. So, Tavros. Tavros is a pretty perfect example of a character death that makes sense not only for his own character arc, but pretty much everyone else's, as well. He was kinda useless and pathetic, but after getting robot legs from Equius (with help from Kanaya's friendly chainsaw), he emboldened himself and modeled himself after Vriska, the most confident person he knows. He saves Jade's life (and killed Grandpa Harley), then decided that Vriska is a Bad Person and Bad People need to be punished, so he grabbed his lance and tried to kill her. This backfired, Vriska killed him as a good troll would, and wouldn't you believe it she felt bad about it afterwards! This was more or less unprecedented, as expected. Then, later, in part because of this same killing (in addition to Vriska's general hubris and refusal to listen to Terezi), Terezi kills Vriska, which as of this latest chatlog is known as something Terezi regrets. Tavros directly and indirectly continued to affect people even after his death, as he did in life. These things didn't happen in a vacuum as you seem to assume.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:14
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:Look, I just wanted Equius' slam poetry in every other chatlog, is that so bad? Killing off Equius was a terrible narrative decision because it led to there being no more Equius. This is objectively a bad thing for a story to have.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:23
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Dolash posted:That still admits a certain amount of agency to the individual though. You will only do those things that are in character for you to do. If you don't like what actions fate is propelling you toward performing, escaping them is merely a matter of changing your character. Karkat can have the exact same conversation he had with his future self that he will eventually have with his past self in the span of 10 minutes. If he could or would not do this, his future self would never have contacted his past self. He's blinded by anger I can only imagine. I think that other characters with more constant self-awareness simply do not get into conversations with themselves because they would be more inclined to break the circuit. Those situations simply do not occur between the future and past selves of kids who have the willingness or ability to contradict the future.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:28
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SexyBrianPuppet posted:Killing off Equius was a terrible narrative decision because it led to there being no more Equius. This is objectively a bad thing for a story to have. It's true. Real-life, bona-fide, real-story-having-written authors have written whole internet dissertations on how killing of Equius is a bad thing
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Mar 28, 2012 23:29
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SexyBrianPuppet posted:Killing off Equius was a terrible narrative decision because it led to there being no more Equius. This is objectively a bad thing for a story to have. Wrong. Equius is now writing the STRONGest slam poetry known to man or troll in the furthest ring. With a harem of robo-Aradia's. This is objectively a good thing for the story to have.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:29
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Yeah I wouldn't say that Tavros' death is an example of getting "stuffed in a fridge". The key to that is that the person getting "stuffed", so to say, gets killed for no reason of their own. It is not a conclusion of a personal arc, it is not a fulfillment of a long-term development. Usually they're just living their lives and, bam, they get murdered to piss off this other person. The sole purpose for their death is to provide character development for another character. And, as King of Solomon outlined above, that clearly wasn't the case with Tavros.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:29
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King of Solomon posted:So, Tavros. Tavros is a pretty perfect example of a character death that makes sense not only for his own character arc, but pretty much everyone else's, as well. He was kinda useless and pathetic, but after getting robot legs from Equius (with help from Kanaya's friendly chainsaw), he emboldened himself and modeled himself after Vriska, the most confident person he knows. This is a Good Post.  All the talk about agency in this thread is getting so dense, and it seems like the comic's own narrative can lend credence to multiple, even conflicting, points of view. I think that lends a certain weight to this story, a permanance that may make it last longer than it's shiny veneer of pop culture would suggest. It's a story that makes you think drat hard.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:30
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:No, it's not the characters themselves that piss me off about his writing or that I'm pissed that characters are dead; people die in a lot of stories and for lots of different reasons. I'm accepting of that. The deaths in 5.2 were poorly done. However, here's the issue: there was no way to do them well. They were Hussie cutting his losses on having bitten off more than he could chew in 5.1. A solid half of the trolls were, from the perspective of the overall narrative, completely superfluous. Equius and Nepeta were utterly pointless except as This Is What Moirails Are. Tavros ended up as nothing more than a prop for exploration of Vriska. Sollux has only ever been a prop. Feferi's closest brush with relevance was her connection with Gbolygb. Eridan was probably the closest of Team Expendable to having actual story relevance, but even then he was just a fun little joke about Nice Guys actually being pretty terrible people by and large that also wrapped up the matriorb loose end. And hell, Gamzee's still basically a prop character, it just so happened his purpose went from 'ICP: this is what the refrance' to Kill Every Other Superfluous Character. Their deaths were stupid and pointless because their lives, from the story's perspective, were stupid and pointless. They were tiny little knots of characterization that didn't actually -do- anything for the story (with the exception of Tavros; his death was key to enabling yet more and better nuanced Vriskachat), and in the name of anything ever happening plotwise again they had to be either filed away in the Superfluous Characters Corner or die. Given the opportunity to go back and rewrite it I guarantee Hussie does not fill out the zodiac with the trolls.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:35
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SexyBrianPuppet posted:Killing off Equius was a terrible narrative decision because it led to there being no more Equius. This is objectively a bad thing for a story to have. You know, I remember when Equius was first introduced as this repulsive, sweaty, creepy troll and Hussie said something like "And now to make you love him" on Twitter or the newsfeed or something. I laughed at the time, but he really did end up being an amazingly lovable character. 
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Mar 28, 2012 23:47
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:When death is used in narrative, it should have individual weight for the narrative and somehow influence the plot as a whole. There are reams and reams of classic literature that disagrees with you. A lot of very memorable and powerful deaths in fiction achieve their potency specifically because they have no weight in the narrative or influence in the plot as a whole. I am not about to argue that Nepeta's death will be enshrined in the annals of literature as a poignant commentary on human mortality, but I think you've got entirely too much expectation as to how central the death of a story's twelfth or so most important character needs to be.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:52
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The nasty creepy uptight jerk who plastered his walls with horrific furry porn and programmed a robot to love him ended up having the most dignity of them all, and that is impressive. Like the other minor trolls, his arc was small and largely inconsequential, but it enriched the story and came to a fitting end. In hindsight, without the impatience of reading it as it updates, I think the comic is STRONGer for having embarked on such digressions.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:53
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So we haven't had an update in a little while, and this intermission is just about (but not quite) as long as the first one. I'm guessing Act 6 Act 3 is about to begin soon with a flash.
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Mar 28, 2012 23:57
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TheChirurgeon posted:It's true. Real-life, bona-fide, real-story-having-written authors have written whole internet dissertations on how killing of Equius is a bad thing I would like to point out that whole "actual, legitimate writers" thing was in contrast with "some guy on TVTropes, noted cesspit". The latter having zero credibility, I was trying to make a point that people who aren't OCD weirdos have noticed that trend. Killing Equius wouldn't have been so bad if was more active in the dream bubbles. Every dream bubble should come standard with an Equius.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:08
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Cabbit posted:I would like to point out that whole "actual, legitimate writers" thing was in contrast with "some guy on TVTropes, noted cesspit". The latter having zero credibility, I was trying to make a point that people who aren't OCD weirdos have noticed that trend. I'd certainly talk to them if I wanted to know the atomic weight of silver, but not, say, how it reacts with chlorine.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:11
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Cabbit posted:Yeah, no, the fridge thing is a legitimate awful thing that happens in fiction and has been around for a long time. Just because TVTropes says the sky is blue doesn't mean it's neon turquoise. Actual, legitimate writers talk about it and everything. Yeah, kinda my fault for placing the wrong link. My apologies there, everybody. Since, you know, apparently TVTropes is such a terrible place.  You want facts? Cry For Justice. another story that used this. It killed a little girl for shock value and then was used to expand her own father's storyline in later books. Early Black Canary books, where her kidnapping and resident assault was used to expand Green Arrow's character and not her own. Just a fair start. But I agree mainly with Ze Pollock; the deaths were pointless and stupid. When you have characters, do something with them or find meaning somewhere with what you made. If you can't find anything, then make them supporting and say so, or kill them by their actions effecting the plot. But in Tavros' case, I didn't see it in that perspective or means. That does help.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:12
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:Yeah, kinda my fault for placing the wrong link. My apologies there, everybody. Since, you know, apparently TVTropes is such a terrible place. But remember: the deaths were pointless because their lives were pointless. Having Nepeta appear out of nowhere to sacrifice herself to Do A Thing would be even stupider than the death she got, because someone who was completely superfluous just got dragged in as a cheap deus ex machina. Superfluous characters get superfluous deaths. Kind of the way it goes.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:18
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Potsticker posted:You know, I remember when Equius was first introduced as this repulsive, sweaty, creepy troll and Hussie said something like "And now to make you love him" on Twitter or the newsfeed or something. I laughed at the time, but he really did end up being an amazingly lovable character. It's pretty crazy.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:32
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Psycho Lawnmower posted:Yeah, kinda my fault for placing the wrong link. My apologies there, everybody. Since, you know, apparently TVTropes is such a terrible place. The reason a lot of trolls deaths seemed pointless was, like others as said, Hussie bit off more than he could chew with introducing so many new characters and couldn't flesh all of them out. It's not related at all to this "fridging" trope.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:44
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It is not a coincidence that the only trolls that survived the Troll Murderfest and will enter the new session are the ones that actually contacted the kids before act 5. Except for Tavros. Poor Tavros. And Gamzee lived for some reason, he's honestly the odd guy out.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:50
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The critical difference is that their narrative purpose in the story was not to motivate more important characters by dying. They were all characters in their own right, minor though they may have been.
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Mar 29, 2012 00:52
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I still maintain that Gamzee is the most important character in Homestuck (or at least suspect that that was the joke), despite the fact that Lil' Cal was sitting on his lap when that was said. I just can't imagine Lil' Cal "fondly regarding miracles". That's a Gamzee thing. (and a Godhead Pickle Inspector thing) Spellman fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Mar 29, 2012 |
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Mar 29, 2012 01:03
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Cabbit posted:I would like to point out that whole "actual, legitimate writers" thing was in contrast with "some guy on TVTropes, noted cesspit". The latter having zero credibility, I was trying to make a point that people who aren't OCD weirdos have noticed that trend. Just imagine how many sweaty towels there would be on the meteor at this point if Equius was still alive. 
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Mar 29, 2012 01:12
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Keatonguy posted:Hey. Hey guys. Hey. Joking aside, this post made me wonder. If Meenah IS the C-spelling, what will happen in the future of the comic to make her / send her back in time / whatever. Or do we think this is just a beta-version of her from a failed universe?
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Mar 29, 2012 01:16
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Indecisive posted:Joking aside, this post made me wonder. If Meenah IS the C-spelling, what will happen in the future of the comic to make her / send her back in time / whatever. Or do we think this is just a beta-version of her from a failed universe? Meenah is the pre-Scratch version, so effectively a different character entirely.
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Mar 29, 2012 01:18
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Incidentally this little comics march madness bracket thing has inspired me to finally do a thing I've wanted to do for a while. Before I read MSPA I maintained this massive bookmark list of webcomics. Like, 21 or 24 of them, and I checked it daily. It was one of my primary sources of internet amusement. When I discovered Homestuck, early during Act 5, my interest in those webcomics died. Abruptly. I mean, I hadn't really been checking them quite as often recently anyway and had been kinda looking for new stuff, but I just stopped looking at every single one of them. I just looked at that bookmark folder (which I still had), and I hadn't looked at those webcomics in over a year. But a few of them are actually kinda good. So I cleaned out the terrible ones (some of which we've been mocking mercilessly in this thread), then I cleaned out the unremarkable ones, and now there's like 8 left. Then I added Gunnerkrigg Court because I've never read that before, and I'm gonna look through that webcomic bracket to see if there's anything else in particular that I'd want to take a look at, and it's probably gonna be up to 14 again. It's basically come full circle.
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Mar 29, 2012 02:36
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JT Jag posted:Incidentally this little comics march madness bracket thing has inspired me to finally do a thing I've wanted to do for a while. Before I read MSPA I maintained this massive bookmark list of webcomics. Like, 21 or 24 of them, and I checked it daily. It was one of my primary sources of internet amusement.
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Mar 29, 2012 02:42
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JT Jag posted:Incidentally this little comics march madness bracket thing has inspired me to finally do a thing I've wanted to do for a while. Before I read MSPA I maintained this massive bookmark list of webcomics. Like, 21 or 24 of them, and I checked it daily. It was one of my primary sources of internet amusement. ALso, the Gunnerkrigg thread is full of excellent discussion, sweet avatars, and Tom Siddell himself posts in the thread! You should check it out once you mainline the entire comic in about two days. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3351001
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Mar 29, 2012 02:56
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I read over a hundred webcomics. RSS is the secret.
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Mar 29, 2012 02:58
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I really want to see Gamzee's ancestor. Like a whole lot.
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Mar 29, 2012 03:28
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I swear, my eyes just slide off any discussion of universes A1/A2/B1/B2 and glaze over but oddly enough, the introduction of Meenah and Aranea cleared it right up for me. At least I understand THAT poo poo now.
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