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The other great scene from that episode is when the ex-mobster is trying to browbeat the two junkies into killing Tony with a shotgun. "Want the cops to find out who burned down the historical house?!" Meadow had a great quip as well: "Did the Cusamano kids ever find $50,000 in Krugerrands and a .45 automatic while they were hunting for Easter eggs?" haljordan fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 13:32
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Having recently watched season 6 again, I really felt very differently about a lot of things. AJ's storyline, for instance - I understand all the hatred and animosity towards him (recent comments in this thread are pretty representative of the general sentiment I think) but I felt very differently this time around. I think I had a lot more empathy for him. Yes, he's a whiny and over-privileged rich kid. But does that preclude us from feeling empathy towards him? I just have trouble viewing AJ as anything but a victim of Tony (and indirectly of Carmela as well), and in many ways what happened to him was tremendously cruel and unjust. Now, AJ's not too bright, but he's still smart enough to grasp stuff like the basic, cliff's notes version of Nietzsche. He's very much sheltered by his parents, and while peripherally aware of his father's lifestyle has never had much reason to think about it too deeply. And because of his parents wealth, over-sheltering, and the private schools he attends, he is utterly unequipped emotionally to deal with the horrible reality of the world around him - a horrible reality that his father ruthlessly revels in and exploits to make a living and provide for AJ's lifestyle. So it's in this situation that AJ comes to a sort of facsimile of "adulthood". Because he's not that bright, and because everything has been provided to him on a silver platter, he fails miserably at college and flunks out, and is also unable to even hold down a lovely job. I don't think it's fair to simply say something like, "Well AJ is stupid and lazy and doesn't give a poo poo, and that's all his fault!" Look at the examples provided to him by his father and mother! Tony obviously doesn't have a traditional job, and AJ never sees him doing anything that could be traditionally described as "work". And Carmela obviously has never had a job, and sits around while getting everything she wants and having extravagant gifts lavished upon her. I mean, as far as AJ can tell his father is just really rich and does next to nothing for it, so he grew up thinking that's the way things are supposed to be. He's clearly aware that his father is engaged in criminal enterprises to make money (but for a long time he probably never thought they were "bad" crimes, or anything) and so a big part of him finds the idea of going to school and working "normal" jobs to be an absolute joke. He knows he doesn't *really* have to provide for himself. On some level he probably just stays with the very childish and unrealistic notion that he'll inherit his father's business, despite having no clue what that business is and being utterly unequipped to take part in it - but he likely just assumes that it involves doing very little actual work and making tons of money. So, as Melfi points out, he continues to exist in a sort of protracted adolescence. He's also emotionally stunted from never having to engage in real adult relationships, until he meets Blanca. And the end of that relationship predictably sends him into a tailspin of depression, which is totally understandable given the fact that he's still an emotional 14-year-old at that point. It's what happens afterwards that I find so interesting and so cruel (on the part of Tony). AJ continues to stay depressed and grows obsessed with following the Iraq/Afghanistan wars on television, getting really worked up about what's going on. I view this as a part of his developing emotional maturity, and his way of coping with the reality of how his father makes a living - something AJ has never had to come to terms with as an adult. He has to reconcile the fact that he's been raised in this protective bubble created by the misery and death of other people, and has to cope with the fact that his parents have made him partly responsible for this despite the fact that he was a child with no understanding or complicity in the matter. This is made starkly aware when Tony actually pushes AJ into the peripheral mob world by making him hang out with the Parisi boys, causing AJ to see what his father's business is *actually* like. And all his illusions are shattered when he sees poo poo like them torturing a kid who owes money by pouring sulfuric acid on him, and beating the poo poo out of an innocent young man for having the audacity to be black at the wrong place and time. So to me, that's what the suicide attempt is about. He's committing suicide because of the sins of his father and his family, and because he's finally come to terms with all the unimaginably awful poo poo the people around him do to make a living, and that not only is his father one of those people, he's the one leading the charge. And because AJ is largely an innocent, empathetic person - a "nice guy" as Tony once put it - he can't cope with any of this at all. Really, it's because he's the direct opposite of a sociopath - that's why he attempts suicide. He feels too much of the pain around him, and he feels it far too deeply. It's incredibly tragic, in my eyes.
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Mar 30, 2012 14:29
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zVxTeflon posted:Gettin mad about chinese food A.J.: Is it true that the Chinese invented spaghetti? Tony: Now think about it. Why would people who eat with sticks invent something you need a fork to eat? Some good points, kaworu. I always felt that his suicide attempt was kind of a way of showing that he puts minimal effort into anything he tries. He made the rope too long and then bobbed up and down until someone game to help him instead of him trying to help himself. Bonzo fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 14:32
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I think the saddest scene for AJ is the one where he is at dinner with Tony and Carm, and says that he wants to go to Harvard or West Point, and Tony sarcastically shoots him down and tells him that he could never make it. Next season, Tony mentions something about West Point, and AJ is incredulous, and says that he could never get in. Tony crushed that kid with barely a thought, and the kid internalized it to the point where he thought it was his own opinion. Rough. That said, AJ is still the worst.
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Mar 30, 2012 16:13
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Ishamael posted:I think the saddest scene for AJ is the one where he is at dinner with Tony and Carm, and says that he wants to go to Harvard or West Point, and Tony sarcastically shoots him down and tells him that he could never make it. He is still better then Finn
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Mar 30, 2012 16:17
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bobkatt013 posted:He is still better then Finn ITS MY PROCESS!!!! 
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Mar 30, 2012 16:20
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haljordan posted:ITS MY PROCESS!!!! YOU GOT OUT A SUITCASE!
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Mar 30, 2012 16:42
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"She kept talking about my Fathers feeble minded brother, but I always thought she meant you!" Has to be one of the best burns in the series. (Valentina notwithstanding). kippa fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 19:05
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There's an exchange between Tony and Junior that takes place at Livia's funeral that cracks me the gently caress up. Junior: They're dropping like flies. Tony: It's all that charcoal-broiled meat you people ate. Junior: (with a genuine shock and concern) Nobody told us until the eighties!
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Mar 30, 2012 21:29
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Junior: They're dropping like flies. Although, as haljordan has forequoted, "manson lamps" is my favorite, I love most of what Uncle Joon has to say, including this one and "he's a goddamn hothouse flower."
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Mar 30, 2012 21:40
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captainOrbital posted:Although, as haljordan has forequoted, "manson lamps" is my favorite, I love most of what Uncle Joon has to say, including this one and "he's a goddamn hothouse flower." "Even the coffee's old in here."
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Mar 30, 2012 22:56
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There's a scene where AJ is hanging out at the nightclub with his "friends", and some of the girls they've picked up are asking about what Tony does in the mob. As kaworu noted, AJ has basically ZERO idea of what the gently caress Tony does, so he basically takes most of his cues from mob movies he's seen. The line that particularly sticks out to me is when he says,"Actually we've moved mostly into legit businesses over the years," which is pretty much cribbing from Godfather Part 2. There is absolutely nothing in our experience or AJ's (and we know far more than him) to indicate Tony is involved in any legitimate enterprise beyond a few fronts - but AJ figures this may be the case. Similarly, after he shows up at Junior's with the knife (I can't call it an attempted hit because AJ doesn't get anywhere near that far) and Tony picks him up, AJ bursts into tears and says that Tony's favorite part of The Godfather is when Michael kills the Turk and the police captain to get revenge for his father. Tony's shock and horror is amazing, and the line,"AJ... that's just a movie" sums it up rather nicely. AJ is completely sheltered from what his Dad does, he only knows about the mob because Meadow told him, has no idea what exactly it is that Tony does in the mob, and basically tries to put it all into the only context he understands - movies.
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Mar 31, 2012 00:15
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kaworu posted:Having recently watched season 6 again, I really felt very differently about a lot of things. AJ's storyline, for instance I think that AJ is meant to be a broader statement on the nature of being. Are you a product of your environment or are you a product of genetics? Is Tony the way he is because he grew up in a gangster household or because he was genetically predisposed to antisocial behaviour? There's a theme that crops up a couple of times in S6 (I think) where Tony talks about his "poisoned blood" and how his genes have hosed AJ. It's amazing how he can have this insight/regret for his son, someone he holds in contempt a lot of the time, while being completely oblivious to Christopher, whose own father was an addict who would jam "just about anything up his arm" and his mother was an alcoholic to boot. It's also interesting that Tony holds Dickie Moltisanti in such high regard while being completely dismissive of Christopher's fate, goading him along, almost like a game. I really think that AJ and Christopher's stories are running really parallel in S6. You have AJ coming apart and becoming an abject failure, culminating in his suicide attempt (which he fucks up), while Christopher has started to slowly eke out a successful life and a clean road (one that gets completely demolished, mind you.) AJ's suicide attempt is more important in that it relates to the audience that Tony is capable of showing some compassion, and that everything he says about Christopher, that he loves him, cares about him, etc. was completely self-serving. Even the brushes with death with AJ/Chris are similar: both revolve around asphyxiation and having Tony be the deciding factor. He intervenes in both, but for completely different purposes.
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Mar 31, 2012 00:22
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There's something else that figured into the murder of Christopher that I've touched upon before elsewhere. A lot of season six also deals with fathers/father figures and Tony's realization that these men are responsible in a lot of ways for how he became Tony Soprano. In fact, in the second half of season six, almost each episode deals with one of them, while Tony's actual father looms in the background. You have Hesh, Paulie and finally Junior. You also have Dickie Moltisanti, who was more of a big brother figure, but I think fits in. Tony Idolized Dickie, as shown in his speech to Melfi about Christopher and 'Cleaver' in "Stage 5". At one point he describes his relationship with Dickie by comparing it to the one he has with Chrissy as "He was like my me to him". And when Melfi offers "A mentor?" Tony responds "Yeah, but more than that, he was a guy you could count on, a guy you could look up to. And the hope is that you can pass that poo poo on, the love" while in tears. I have no doubt that Tony loved Christopher, at least years ago. Maybe even up through season three or four, but it went sour at some point. First the rehab, then Adrianna. But the funny thing is, as Perdido mentioned, Tony callously ignored Christopher's legitimate problems, probably inherited problems, while always using his own depression as an excuse for his actions. What makes it even more baffling is how he idolizes Dickie, while Chris has come to terms with who his father was. And this is what I was getting at in the first sentence. When Chris finally has his first family barbecue at his new house, Tony almost immediately starts giving him poo poo about the non-alcoholic beer. When Chris tries to tell him it's not that simple to ignore the temptation that's everywhere around him, Tony just spits out "Well make it simple". Then Chris, probably for the first (and last) time decides to be 100% honest and just as abrasive as Tony usually is. First he tries comparing his disease (or as Tony calls it, "I know a crutch when I see one") with Tony's depression, which pisses Tony off. And then he drops the bombshell. "So what about my father?" Christopher then completely destroys the magnificent (and pretty much unwarranted) image Tony had of Dickie Moltisanti in just a few words. "The booze, the coke, whatever he was squirting into his arm". This was a man that was either in the Navy or in prison for almost the entirety of his marriage to Joanne and then was murdered on his front lawn when Christopher was a toddler. Sure, there are legends of him "taking on an entire crew by himself" but how different is that than the one about Fran Feldstein being JFK's "regular girlfriend"? And then finally, Christopher tells Tony, "Let's face it...Dickie Moltisanti...your hero, my father...he wasn't much more than a loving junkie". So think about it this way. Not only did Chris topple Tony's idol fairly dismissively, he also compared Dickie to himself rather unfavorably. Also, and this is important, there's no longer a reason for Chris to feel indebted to Tony. Whether Barry Haydu was actually the cop that shot and killed Dickie no longer matters, because if Chris doesn't give a poo poo about his father, why would he care that Tony allowed him to avenge his murder? That was probably the last thing Tony felt he could hold over Christopher if he needed to. There's also the fact that Tony may have harbored a nasty jealousy that Christopher was able to see through the bullshit and discard the legend of Dickie while Tony continued to protect the legacy of Johnny Boy Soprano right up through the last episode. I'm afraid I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop now. Pope Corky the IX fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Mar 31, 2012 |
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Mar 31, 2012 01:13
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So a few episodes into Season 3 and I'm starting to get concerned. The product placement is getting conspicuous to the point of being a detriment to the show.... Do they tone it down or is it all downhill from here?
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Mar 31, 2012 16:02
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Stark posted:So a few episodes into Season 3 and I'm starting to get concerned. The product placement is getting conspicuous to the point of being a detriment to the show.... Do they tone it down or is it all downhill from here? David Chase at one point addressed the product placement, saying something along the lines of "we're just being realistic" and I think he's right. There's a scene where an FBI agent/handler is in a car with one of the informants and says "Do you need batteries for that thing? (meaning his wire) Let's go over to Office Depot" being that it's down the road. In a real life conversation, that's exactly what you would say, not "Let's go over to generic store".
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Mar 31, 2012 16:07
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Patsy Parisi and Burt Gervasi (I think?) trying to shake down the Starbucks-like chain coffee place is pretty hilarious. They start out making all these thinly veiled threats until the guy flat out tells them that everything is tracked in the store and they have 10000 stores nationwide so he doubts they'd care about a manager or to getting hurt. "It's over for the little guy" indeed.
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Mar 31, 2012 17:17
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Can't say I've ever really noticed the product placement being bad or shoved in your face, to me it just seems more realistic for them to have cans of Coca-Cola in the fridge rather than red cans with tape over the brand or whatever.
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Mar 31, 2012 19:33
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Its not like they're film stars drinking Budweiser whenever they're out. I never noticed it, although I tend not to unless it sticks out like my example.
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Mar 31, 2012 20:07
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MrBling posted:Patsy Parisi and Burt Gervasi (I think?) trying to shake down the Starbucks-like chain coffee place is pretty hilarious. Speaking of thinly veiled threats, I also really love the scene in "Pie-O-My" where Bobby goes to intimidate the shop steward from the joint fitters union into voting for the right candidate. "You look like a smart guy. I can see why your local puts their faith in you to do the right thing. I'm just saying, if it was me? I got kids that depend on me, like yourself. And to waste my votes on somebody like Dick Hoffman? I might as well put a bullet in my head...here, here and here." haljordan fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Apr 1, 2012 |
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Apr 1, 2012 00:03
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Pope Corky the IX posted:David Chase at one point addressed the product placement, saying something along the lines of "we're just being realistic" and I think he's right. There's a scene where an FBI agent/handler is in a car with one of the informants and says "Do you need batteries for that thing? (meaning his wire) Let's go over to Office Depot" being that it's down the road. In a real life conversation, that's exactly what you would say, not "Let's go over to generic store". I noticed that, but that instance didn't bother me. Labels being visible doesn't either. What bothers me: The FBI agent blurting out joyously "OH He's got the Black & Decker(tm)!!! I've got that one!!" when they were reviewing the tapes of the Soprano basement. Then there was the time Carmella was setting the table and she announced that she had prepared "Mario Batali Green Beans with Parmesan *painful smirk*" in its own cut-away shot. I can put up with some of the more subtle placement, but its becoming kind of ridiculous.
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Apr 1, 2012 08:05
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I wonder how much money Uncle Ben's paid for their product to be placed as a trigger for a racism and rice fueled panic attack.
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Apr 1, 2012 08:15
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I always assumed David Chase was trying to make some kind of point with the weirdly conspicuous product placement in S3, and then gave up on it.
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Apr 1, 2012 08:21
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Stark posted:I noticed that, but that instance didn't bother me. Labels being visible doesn't either. Um... you are aware that The Sopranos is an HBO show, and that they make their money from paying customers who subscribe specifically to their channel. As opposed to making money from the advertising of products and services. And yes, this specifically includes product placement, all of which are unpaid and used organically in the shows. Maybe I'm crazy, but I assumed that part of the whole point of shows produced on HBO/Showtime/etc were that the producers and writers and directors had the creative freedom to do what they wanted, including using real-life products for the purposes of verisimilitude. I mean, really... isn't that the entire point? I'm honestly shocked you're bothered by those in the first place, and that you even perceived them as "product placement" at all. There was never a point while watching the entire run of The Sopranos where the words "product placement" entered my head (unlike on Network shows where it enters my head with some frequency). Your first example is a legitimately wonderful and hilarious moment, because it plays on the universal male fascination with specific power tools. When one guy is in the basement of another guy, that's one of the things they do - talk about what power tools the other guy has and whether he's got the same ones as you, and which one is better, and so forth. It's *funny* seeing that same behavior in the context of FBI agents surveilling the home of a mobster. That's the point of the scene, it's not an excuse to mention a Black & Decker product. Same with the 'Mario Battali' thing. That's a comment on the pop culture milieu of being a suburban Italian housewife in the '90s, and what brands and names you obsess over with regard to the details in life. This is all how real people talk, in real life. I even think Battali gets mentioned again when Charmaine is predictably nagging Artie, and he throws up his hands and is like "I could have an empire, like Battali, and you'd still be constantly on my rear end about every little thing!" Would you perceive that as a smirking product placement for Battali? Seriously? Let me ask you a question - when you watched the opening scene of season 4 of The Wire with Snoop shopping for a nail-gun and saw the hardware store-guy start talking about the DeWalt cordless and the Hilti DX powder-actuated, did you roll your eyes and go "Pfft these product placements are just out of hand!!!" ? I'm legitimately serious. Those nail-guns had their own cut-away shots and specific brand-names mentioned, and one even gets referred to as the "Cadillac" of nail=guns. Because that's the same sort of thing. And it's also one of the funniest and greatest and most memorable scenes on the show. And then, there's the legendary speech D'Angelo gives about chicken mcnuggets in season 1 - did you automatically assume that David Simon was CLEARLY getting paid to make his characters talk about McDonalds products?
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Apr 1, 2012 08:49
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Probably the biggest argument against paid product placement is a specific scene in the last episode. I'll spoiler it because this guy is apparently working his way through the show for the first time. Phil's death. There are at least three shots where the Ford logo all but fills the screen. First the grille, then the steering wheel, then the hubcap. All the while it's as if they're pointing out a design flaw in the vehicle where if you happen to exit while it's still in Drive, you'll be locked out as it continues to move. Then it rolls over and crushes a man's head while his wife watches and his grandchildren are inside. If Ford paid for that, they got fuuuuucked.
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Apr 1, 2012 13:44
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I wish all mobsters were as dedicated to the environment as Paulie is:
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Apr 1, 2012 14:36
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While we're posting screencaps, any Better Off Ted fans?
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Apr 1, 2012 15:58
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oh god, I forgot all about the goth Vito jr storyline.  
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Apr 1, 2012 18:00
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I was checking youtube for Sopranos clips and found this one below. It's from Season 6, episode 16 "Chasing It" (a very underrated episode in my opinion). It's a great example of what a colossal prick (even more so than usual) Tony becomes in the last season: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLgvvxmAP7k Paul Kersey fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Apr 1, 2012 |
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Apr 1, 2012 19:13
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MrBling posted:oh god, I forgot all about the goth Vito jr storyline. Wonder if that's the same cemetery where Joey Peeps is buried: 
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Apr 1, 2012 19:48
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Paul Kersey posted:I was checking youtube for Sopranos clips and found this one below. It's from Season 6, episode 16 "Chasing It" (a very underrated episode in my opinion). It's a great example of what a colossal prick (even more so than usual) Tony becomes in the last season: Gonna disagree with you here - in my opinion this was the worst episode they ever did, and it still annoys me to this day.
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Apr 1, 2012 19:55
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There's a couple of things that totally disappear from the show without getting mentioned again that bother me a little (not including the Russian): Junior's old woman friend who was there during the start of his house arrest. She puts that sleep apnoea mask over his head one night as he goes to sleep, then is never seen again. The second is Peeps related, Johnny Sack is pissed as all hell when he gets killed, surely after Tony B tries to kill Phil (and does kill his brother), he has to realise it was actually Tony B who killed Peeps? The fallout then is all Phil related, surely Johnny Sack should want Tony B just as much after that?
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Apr 1, 2012 19:58
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Ishamael posted:Gonna disagree with you here - in my opinion this was the worst episode they ever did, and it still annoys me to this day. It's weird, some of the the episodes where Matthew Weiner get the sole writing credit ("Chasing It", "Sentimental Education", "Luxury Lounge") are among my least favorite but the ones he shared a credit, usually with David Chase, are great ("The Test Dream", "Kennedy and Heidi", "The Blue Comet", "Soprano Home Movies").
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Apr 1, 2012 21:25
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Ishamael posted:Gonna disagree with you here - in my opinion this was the worst episode they ever did, and it still annoys me to this day. Just out of curiosity, why does it annoy you so much? I didn't think it was the worst episode they ever did by any means. I always considered it pretty central and important to the overall storyline of season 6 pt. 2.
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Apr 1, 2012 21:42
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kaworu posted:Just out of curiosity, why does it annoy you so much? I didn't think it was the worst episode they ever did by any means. I always considered it pretty central and important to the overall storyline of season 6 pt. 2. For me I didn't like how Tony's gambling problem seemed to come out of nowhere. It was still a good episode but would really have benefited from more of a build up. I don't think they mention his gambling problem after this episode either.
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Apr 1, 2012 21:55
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They did, after Christopher died and he was in Vegas winning and realising "he's dead" which he mentions to Paulie later on.
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Apr 1, 2012 22:03
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kaworu posted:Product Placement Rant I'm happy you typed that so I didn't have to try. I agree completely; Anyone who has their enjoyment affected by perceived product placement should step away from watching anything ever. What amount of joylessness does it take to sit there watching one of the greatest TV dramas of all time and suddenly go 'Oh my God Chris mentioned the price of his H2, a real vehicle that exists. God drat this is bullshit.'
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Apr 1, 2012 22:07
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I'm confused by what the point was with Tony getting a cancerous growth or whatever removed from his forehead. They spent like two minutes on it and then is never mentioned again.
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Apr 1, 2012 22:21
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I think it was a device just to build common ground between him and Adriana for that episode.
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Apr 1, 2012 22:35
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marktheando posted:For me I didn't like how Tony's gambling problem seemed to come out of nowhere. It was still a good episode but would really have benefited from more of a build up. I don't think they mention his gambling problem after this episode either. That bothered me as well, but after reading that long-rear end "patricide"-interpretation it sort of made sense that Tony would develop a self-destructive obsession with the very thing his father always cautioned him against - i. e. gambling.
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Apr 3, 2012 14:57
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