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It specifically suppresses Reynardine's powers and we have no reason to believe that it does the same to anyone or anything else. The crossed out eye symbol is specific to Renard because he takes over somebody's body by entering through their eyes. Aside from that it can make temporary openings in walls, erect temporary physical barriers and fetch medium sized objects from some sort of storage. That seems to be it. I honestly think that Anja and Donald built it to give him access to her unexplainable powers, since she clearly doesn't actually need the computer. She can use Annie's blinker stone just fine, after all. And there are other examples of magic poo poo too, Eglamore drew that symbol in purple chalk to snuff out the fire Annie covered the bridge in while she fled to the forest.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:27
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100 HOGS AGREE posted:And there are other examples of magic poo poo too, Eglamore drew that symbol in purple chalk to snuff out the fire Annie covered the bridge in while she fled to the forest. Yeah, and let's not forget that he also LEAPED OFF A BUILDING and so did the old games teacher. There's a lot of unexplained stuff so far, but I wouldn't just write it off as sloppy plot development before we know what the deal is.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:30
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Why would you say that seems to be it? Every time it comes up it gets a new power or two that weren't precedented before; prior to this chapter nobody was guessing well maybe it lets you walk through walls and self-assemble rocket kits pulled out of thin air. Or trace phone calls. I mean I expect Siddell's gonna explain stuff a bit and give it some actual defined properties shortly but it's perfectly reasonable for people to ask why it wouldn't fit in this thing's extant definition for it to, I don't know, go back in time and teleport Diego into the Sun. The story just ran up against a narrative problem that, as you say, has been kinda lurking in the background for some time now. So we're talking about it. That's where we are now. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 21:32
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Unsuccessfully tracing phone calls! Presenting a spinning hourglass that shows how much time it has left to finish a task! Retrieving things from storage! Truly this is an amazing computer that can do literally anything, so long as those things aren't actually very impressive at all. Except maybe the portable door, that still owns. I'd totally use it all the time.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:42
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Bullshit I remember that hourglass it didn't tell you poo poo  So I guess we can narrow the list of applications down by one.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:43
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If the computer ends up demonstrating an unprecedented ability that trivializes a major obstacle, then we'll know it's a problem. I see this as very unlikely considering Gunnerkrigg Court's conflicts tend to be emotional in nature.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:46
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This is a high magic (or indistinguishably advanced technology) setting, man. It's not a deus ex machina just because it has powers.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:47
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While it may indeed end up being a godlike machine that won't necessary make it a deus ex machina.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:50
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We do know some of the computers limits. Donald couldn't just wish the supplies where they were supposed to go. He had to procure supplies he didn't have on-hand (scapels and blades) and he had to launch them with a rocket to a satellite. The computer created temporary doorways but I don't think we'd ever seen the computer teleport a person. Those imply a lot of barriers: a maximum distance and complexity for what can be teleported, limits to how many doorways can be created or used, and the need to have items prepped before they can be teleported. There are other limits too. The computer didn't control the robots; they had their own wills and desires. It couldn't cure Zimmy or take care of the spiders. Coyote and Reynard were able to shape-shift, posses other bodies, even manipulate the size and location of the moon. I doubt the computer could do that. The computers powers may seem godlike the powers are bound to the court. We just don't know when the boundaries are going to get hit.
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Mar 30, 2012 21:53
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flatluigi posted:This is a high magic (or indistinguishably advanced technology) setting, man. It's not a deus ex machina just because it has powers. This is lazy writing. "Oh, its magic, it can do whatever." Its the exact same thing that Mookie gets slammed on all the time in the Dominic Deegan thread and is an awful trap for any fantasy writer. Its worse here when the setting is specifically Magic vs. Technology and the technology guys are making doors appear and teleporting objects and making impenetrable shields with a wizard computer. Every chapter this computer appears it, its had a new, previously undocumented ability. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a deus ex machina yet, simply because it hasn't been used as an easy out for a conflict. So far, its pretty much just been a shortcut so we don't have to see a three comic montage of Donald collecting supplies. There are other ways to do that, but Tom feels the computer is important to show off and I'm okay with that to a point. I'm just worried it'll feature creep to a point that the Court has abilities that are indistinguishable from something that a blinker stone or Ysengrin can do. VVVV Its not that the two can match each other, its that they become indistinguishable. The robot-shadow people dichotomy is actually a really good example because the robots are clearly technological, both in design and how real-life society views the concept, while the shadow people are clearly fantastical/mythological. Similar, but distinctly different in tone and style and fit the Magic vs. Technology concept. But what's the difference between Annie teleporting her blinker stone (an object of the Wood with magical powers) and Donald teleporting his pipe? We're told that the latter is done through a computer, sure, but does that really appear to affect the process? It was still done as easily as Annie summoning her stone, just with some squiggly white lines around it instead. 1stGear fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 21:57
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I don't see why that'd be a problem -- the Court can build robots (sentient ones with personalities! No mean feat!) and the Forest has its shadow people, which are both variations on a theme: almost human, but not quite. The Court and the Forest have always been presented as on equal footing, if not actually two sides of the same coin. It's unsurprising the Court has technology that can match magic.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:02
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1stGear posted:This is lazy writing. "Oh, its magic, it can do whatever." Its the exact same thing that Mookie gets slammed on all the time in the Dominic Deegan thread and is an awful trap for any fantasy writer. Its worse here when the setting is specifically Magic vs. Technology and the technology guys are making doors appear and teleporting objects and making impenetrable shields with a wizard computer. Every chapter this computer appears it, its had a new, previously undocumented ability. Yuuup. The issue isn't that anyone really, really wanted to see Donald put that model rocket kit together or open the door, walk around to the adjacent stairwell and open another one, it's that it's sort of shaping up to be an arbitrarily powerful do-anything machine in the hands of someone allied to the protagonists, opening up real questions about why it doesn't solve a lot of the fundamental problems of the story, by time it's already done that and qualified for discussion as a deus ex machina among the Internet pedant checklist crowd it would have already ended the plot. Most of the existing supermagic/high tech stuff both has defined properties (if not always perfectly defined) and is in the hands of someone either too incompetent or too mentally unbalanced/obsessed with other poo poo to take full advantage of them. The 'computer' is neither, so doesn't have a ready-made excuse why it's not the solution to X Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 22:04
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But it hasn't progressed to that point and shows no sign of doing so. You're just freaking out over a distant possibility. Are you going to complain about Coyote next? He can do a lot more than teleport things and bring up a holographic screen.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:06
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1stGear posted:This is lazy writing. "Oh, its magic, it can do whatever." Its the exact same thing that Mookie gets slammed on all the time in the Dominic Deegan thread and is an awful trap for any fantasy writer. Its worse here when the setting is specifically Magic vs. Technology and the technology guys are making doors appear and teleporting objects and making impenetrable shields with a wizard computer. Every chapter this computer appears it, its had a new, previously undocumented ability. There is no reason to believe the computer can do anything beyond what it has been shown to do, which as has been said, pales in comparison to the purely magical powers that have been shown. I have no idea why anyone who has enjoyed the story up to this point would assume the author has suddenly fallen prey to bad writing. As to the power balance between the Court and the Woods, the computer doesn't enter into it since, being part etheric, the court refuses to acknowledge or use it. It's not the courts power, just Donald and Anja's.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:10
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What kinds of problems have arisen in this comic that a do-anything magic computer could have solved, though? Even if you assume that it has vast powers not yet established (so far it can: make runes in midair, attempt to trace phone calls, make temporary holes in walls, and teleport objects from a specific storage location), when previously would any of those powers have negated the conflict? What's more, it's fairly clear that this chapter is establishing the general limits of the computer (so far it can't: teleport objects that weren't already in storage, be used by anybody who's not authorized, or do anything that Anja and Donald haven't thought to program it to), not establishing that it has no limits. Be reasonable, here.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:17
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Just because Tom is a better writer than to spend pages of content in a VISUAL medium explicitly spelling out the exact rules that the magiputer follows just to please the more spergish of his readers does not mean it has no rules limits or costs.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:19
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Obviously Tom needs to use his new found free-time to write out an extensive guide on exactly how the ether works, how Diego created the original court robots, what Jones is, the (lack of) limits on Coyote's power, how Reynardine's body-snatching ability works, where the Tick-Tock birds came from, how you combine court technology and etheric science to create a computer that can make portable doors, how people turn into birds and how birds turn into people, and why City Face is so adorable. Or maybe goons can stop sperging about a device that has appeared, what, three times in the history of the comic?
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Mar 30, 2012 22:24
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Haha yase talkin about comics setting in the comics thread for the strip that's all about investigating its setting = literal assburgers now whos up for a round of Jones Is A Robot? Also boxbot sucks loooolBongo Bill posted:What kinds of problems have arisen in this comic that a do-anything magic computer could have solved, though? Even if you assume that it has vast powers not yet established (so far it can: make runes in midair, attempt to trace phone calls, make temporary holes in walls, and teleport objects from a specific storage location), when previously would any of those powers have negated the conflict? Oh cool an actually decent post This is fair enough, I'm more interested in seeing where the feature creep stops than any of the specific cases here, because it's what's being foregrounded right now. Something that can teleport, make apparently physical barriers, and reign in Coyote powers (remember: Reynardine only has Coyote powers) seems like it already coulda shortcut a fair bit of stuff that went on. Woulda made things a lot less interesting to use Donald's computer to move stuff around instead of Parley, for certain, but there's not a lot of apparent practical reason not to. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 22:26
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All the tension in this comic evaporated when he summoned his pipe. Used to be you'd see Donald, think "man what is he gonna do if he feels like smoking a pipe? he's gonna have to walk to the table and pick that sucker up!" But nowadays he just gets his pipe whenever?? Bullshit. I'm quitting this comic and my appointment for a Diego tattoo.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:29
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Gunnerkrigg Court Thread: Much Ado About RPG-Hammerspace Inventories. ...since that's basically it. Also, magic door, but I suppose it fits the theme of manipulating space and poo poo.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:32
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I don't think a "deus ex machina" is a big deal in a comic where there's a literal god running around doing things like plucking the moon out of the sky. Also, GC as a comic doesn't really have a lot of physical conflict. Sure, someone helping the protagonists has a really handy magic computer thing, but what's he going to do with it? There aren't any bad guys lurking around for them to cut in half with magic doors or anything.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:39
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Dias posted:Gunnerkrigg Court Thread: Much Ado About RPG-Hammerspace Inventories. And instantly imprisoned Reynardine. And completely blocked Ysengrin. And can be instantly accessed from anywhere (Though that page does mention a limitation: apparently has to have an item to link to. Not that we're shown what Donny and Eglamore need). And can disperse raging infernos. Don't worry though, just because this magical wizard computer that apparently has the greatest wireless connection in the world can completely negate two of the three literal gods in this setting as well as shut out the powers of Annie's blinker stone by its users waving their hands around and drawing runes doesn't make it magical or limitless or anything. It is okay to criticize a comic you enjoy.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:42
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The Court has a machine that can rival the Forest's power, who, incidentally, have literal gods on their side. I don't see the problem.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:44
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1stGear posted:And can disperse raging infernos. What makes you think that was the computer, rather that just plain old magic? 1stGear posted:Don't worry though, just because this magical wizard computer that apparently has the greatest wireless connection in the world can completely negate two of the three literal gods in this setting I don't think that Ysengrin or Reynardine are actually Gods like Coyote is, they're just intelligent, kinda-magical canines.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:48
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1stGear posted:And can disperse raging infernos. But that guy (Eglamore) was just drawing a magical rune or some poo poo. There's zero indication that has to do with the computer. Edit: Godammit.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:52
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1stGear posted:And instantly imprisoned Reynardine. While he was in a lesser form and probably under command not to fight back. Also, the court has been able to easily contain Reynardine even without the use of the computer. 1stGear posted:And can disperse raging infernos. Do we know this was the computer, and not a handy, etheric rune Eglamore knows how to use? Fake edit: Beaten on the second point.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:53
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MikeJF posted:What makes you think that was the computer, rather that just plain old magic? The computer itself is magic as well. What's the big deal with there being a magic computer that makes those that use it wizards? Antimony is basically a wizard herself, her best friend is The Best at science, she keeps a demon as a pet, she has a sword that can cut ANYTHING, and she pals around with a couple who are together The Best at teleportation. Oh, and she occasionally hangs out with a Native American trickster god. Why does another two cast members being basically "D&D style wizards with pre-arranged technomagic rituals" suddenly ruin the narrative?  I mean, just because there's magic doesn't mean all tension is suddenly gone or that it can do "literally anything". So far it lets its users access information and manipulate space a bit in certain set ways (barriers, filtering walls, moving some pre-encoded objects to hand). OH NO.Especially since most of the conflicts in the story are inter-personal ones, or involve swordfighting technocursed ghosts. And growing up.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:54
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The fact that a mechanism that combines magic and technology can do really cool things is thematically consistent. Magic runes are visual shorthand for "This is a kind of magic that has rules." The computer uses magic; accessing it from anywhere is something that blinker stones were known to be capable of (and in a much less limited way once you learn how), so once you've got that, somebody authorized to use the computer can do so from anywhere. Then they make the gesture for draw_anti_reynardine_rune.exe and the computer does it. This, of course, only works because they already knew the magic spell that would have that effect, which is legitimate. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Also, neither Ysengrim nor Reynardine are gods.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:55
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1stGear posted:And instantly imprisoned Reynardine. Both of those could easily be described as different uses of the same power creating hard light objects, but then you and tubgirl would say its too powerful because the same thing that could be used to stop a sharp branch arm could be used to stop a sword or a bullet
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Mar 30, 2012 22:55
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Stop it, everyone, logic clearly has no place in this thread!!
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Mar 30, 2012 22:57
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Not to mention that this computer might require extremely large amounts of energy or some kind of scarce resource, might be limited to a localized area, might include a significant recharge-after-use delay, might require specialized hardware that the user has to carry, etc. There really is no reason to accuse this device of sloppy writing, especially considering all the OTHER fantastical things we've seen so far.
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Mar 30, 2012 22:59
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I think it's very likely the computer only has admin accounts for Anja and Donny, too. I mean, why would they let anyone else play with their shiny magic/technology hybrid, really? It's their project and the other adults are plenty magical themselves.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:01
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Bongo Bill posted:The fact that a mechanism that combines magic and technology can do really cool things is thematically consistent. This is another good point. The computer is also the symbolic and actual synthesis of what is at the moment two conflicting ideologies that drive the overall plot forward. Given this, its impressive its role in the story so far has been so minimal.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:01
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Rumda posted:Both of those could easily be described as different uses of the same power creating hard light objects, but then you and tubgirl would say its too powerful because the same thing that could be used to stop a sharp branch arm could be used to stop a sword or a bullet ...And then you go on to describe why it's important that it can/can't be used that way, or possibly both simultaneously, but there never be a given reason why, instead of complaining about other people reading the comic instead of sitting back and passively enjoying the pretty colors
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Mar 30, 2012 23:01
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Donald probably doesn't get many opportunities to show off his computer magic, and obviously wants to make an impression. He'd be chuffed to bits if he heard this discussion.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:03
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Bongo Bill posted:Magic runes are visual shorthand for "This is a kind of magic that has rules." The computer uses magic; accessing it from anywhere is something that blinker stones were known to be capable of (and in a much less limited way once you learn how), so once you've got that, somebody authorized to use the computer can do so from anywhere. Then they make the gesture for draw_anti_reynardine_rune.exe and the computer does it. This, of course, only works because they already knew the magic spell that would have that effect, which is legitimate. It seems pretty straightforward to me. I would be okay with this. Its an explanation that limits the abilities of the computer while still giving it a broad enough base to be useful and it doesn't require a solid page of text like some people seem to think an explanation requires. And you're right, an item that combines magic and technology would be consistent with the themes. There just needs to be boundaries. This is pretty much the first rule of speculative fiction writing: your fantastical elements need to have limits that the reader is aware of. Pretty much every other part of GC has followed that, with the exception of the computer. quote:Both of those could easily be described as different uses of the same power creating hard light objects, but then you and tubgirl would say its too powerful because the same thing that could be used to stop a sharp branch arm could be used to stop a sword or a bullet Is that how it works? Cool. Show me that. So next chapter when Donny waves his hand around and stops Jeanne from impaling Parley, it doesn't sound like an asspull. Let's phrase this in a different situation: Ysengrin has been specifically stated to only have control over trees. An impressive ability with wide-ranging implications, but one of limited effectiveness outside the forest. He's powerful, but with clear limitations that Tom has to operate in and the reader can trust in. Tom didn't outright come and say "Well, Ysengrin is super-weak outside the forest!", the entire concept was clearly and easily laid out by saying he just has control over trees. But if next chapter, Ysengrin charges into the Court and starts blowing up buildings, with the explanation being "Because.", is that effective writing?
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Mar 30, 2012 23:12
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No one is saying there should be no criticism. But in this instance, the particular criticism is being disputed, and those arguments are being backed up accordingly. To put it simply, the computer seems no more of a flaw in the story than any other fantasy/sci-fi element.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:12
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glitchwraith posted:This is another good point. The computer is also the symbolic and actual synthesis of what is at the moment two conflicting ideologies that drive the overall plot forward. Given this, its impressive its role in the story so far has been so minimal. It's becoming less and less clear where those ideologies actually break down, to me at least. They talk about science versus magic poo poo a lot but, hell, even crazy magic pumps and stuff aside, the court's rife with robots that are based on the same 'it works, don't question it' magic principles, just made out of metal not wood. The court has always been cool with relying totally on magic self-replicating rune golems but not magic "computers", just because those are too magical? I think it's sort of coming out that on investigation a lot of the explanations the adults give for what's going on aren't even remotely true. Which is why it's hilarious that everyone's so mad at stuff not being accepted at face value! Like, what do you get out of this comic, anyway? Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 23:16
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:It's becoming less and less clear where those ideologies actually break down, to me at least. They talk about science versus magic poo poo a lot but, hell, even crazy magic pumps and stuff aside, the court's rife with robots that are based on the same 'it works, don't question it' magic principles, just made out of metal not wood. This is probably a major theme of the story. People who go to war over competing ideologies are usually more alike than different, making war in general petty and/or pointless.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:21
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It's not considered good form to complain about bad storytelling that hasn't happened yet and may never happen.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:22
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