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Randomzx posted:Okay how about talking about the F/Z anime for once? I went into the anime without any prior knowledge of any of the Fate series (beyond incidental run-ins on other forums/whatever), and you pretty much hit all my issues with it, except I haven't read the LN so I basically had no idea what was going on most of the time. I didn't really expect the anime to be geared to people who were new to the franchise, so maybe that's part of it, but maybe my issues with it are a little more legitimate if someone who read the LN felt the same way. Randomzx posted:For example, a lot of Kiritsugu and Kotomine's characterization were done in third person in the LN, but the Anime didn't even bother to convey this well enough. Admittedly, I wasn't giving the anime my full attention at all times, but these two points in particular really bugged me. Maybe I just spaced out when important stuff was happening that would have made up for it, but I feel like any attempt to describe Kotomine or Kiritsugu's motivations or personalities was almost entirely through some convoluted and totally out of context pieces of dialogue or some one-off line that you're supposed to immediately connect with because tropes (like that one comment in the beginning about Kotomine's wife being dead?). And the same sort of thing with any battle mechanics. They all sorta come off like... well these powerlevel discussions. I ended up just writing it all off as technical fanservice because I couldn't follow it and none of it seemed to have any relevance to what was going on onscreen anyway. I almost feel like the show would have been better off not trying to explain the mechanics at all, since all that infodumping seemed utterly irrelevant (though again, as a new viewer and probably not the target audience so perhaps not something the show should be criticized too harshly for).
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Mar 30, 2012 07:56
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Kotomine you would theoretically know from playing F/SN, although to be fair half of his "characterization" is "he was just born evil for some reason" bullshit. I haven't read the LN so maybe Urobuchi retconned that into something that makes sense and chalked the F/SN explanation up as Kotomine lying or not actually understanding his own actions. Once in a while the mechanics of Nasuverse magic help with foreshadowing (i.e. somebody has an ability which, if you think about it, is an obvious counter to someone else's) but nine times out of ten they just justify what needed to happen for the plot anyways. EDIT: F/SN also explains and re-explains the rules of the Grail War until you get sick of hearing about them, which I imagine makes F/Z much easier to follow as well. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 08:10
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Factor_VIII posted:.And plenty of static scenes is what you can expect from an anime series since animation is expensive. Lots of fluid animation can only be found in movies and sometimes not even there. I'm not talking about animation. I'm talking about the resources and budget placed into the backgrounds limits the number of way the scenes could be shot and arranged.
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Mar 30, 2012 08:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Kotomine you would theoretically know from playing F/SN, although to be fair half of his "characterization" is "he was just born evil for some reason" bullshit. I haven't read the LN so maybe Urobuchi retconned that into something that makes sense and chalked the F/SN explanation up as Kotomine lying or not actually understanding his own actions.. It was more of Kotomine being described as broken human that can't find passion in anything but watching humans digging their own grave in FSN. The end result of the nature of the grail was entirely by human hands in trying to manipulate the system and the ancient villagers placing all their blames and curses on a boy as the scapegoat for all the evils of the world. Kotomine believes he's simply completing the ritual to show the world the results of their wishes. and the reason he supported and raised Rin for the grail war so that her image of the 3 families and her goal would be shattered as she learns the true nature of her duty her father passed on. Randomzx fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 08:30
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Randomzx posted:It was more of Kotomine being described as broken human that can't find passion in anything but watching humans digging their own grave in FSN. The end result of the nature of the grail was entirely by human hands in trying to manipulate the system and the ancient villagers placing all their blames and curses on a boy as the scapegoat for all the evils of the world. Kotomine believes he's simply completing the ritual to show the world the results of their wishes. The thing is it never gives a reason for why he's broken, and even specifically denies the most immediate potential explanation (the death of his wife). His reasoning and philosophy make him a great villain but if you try to study him as a person it falls apart. (Unless he was lying in that monologue, which isn't a huge leap and would give F/Z plenty of room to flesh him out.)
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Mar 30, 2012 08:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The thing is it never gives a reason for why he's broken, and even specifically denies the most immediate potential explanation (the death of his wife). His reasoning and philosophy make him a great villain but if you try to study him as a person it falls apart. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder He's just an extreme sadist. Intellectually he knows it's wrong but he can't really help it. He's broken because he has a mental disorder, knows he's hosed up but can't do anything about it. Which isn't all that uncommon. Zahki fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 13:57
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Zahki posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder
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Mar 30, 2012 14:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The thing is it never gives a reason for why he's broken, and even specifically denies the most immediate potential explanation (the death of his wife). His reasoning and philosophy make him a great villain but if you try to study him as a person it falls apart. Are you trying to argue that sociopaths don't exist?
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Mar 30, 2012 14:13
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Rodyle posted:Are you trying to argue that sociopaths don't exist? I'm arguing that sociopathy isn't genetic, and that even if it is it's lazy way to set up your main antagonist. EDIT: The scientific side of this isn't even the issue, it's that from a storytelling standpoint, opposing a radical idealist with a guy who just happens to be evil and insane by accident is a cop-out. Instead of providing an ideological alternative (however flawed) it reduces him to a mere obstacle. Whether it's realistic or not is a distant second. Although I do recognize that it's not an either/or proposition; Kotomine's concept of witnessing and approving the birth of any new thing is pretty close to an ideology. I just wish there were more of it. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 14:20
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm arguing that sociopathy isn't genetic, and that even if it is it's lazy way to set up your main antagonist. He didn't inherited from anybody, considering Kotomine Risei was a well functioning human. And sociopathy doesn't automatically means you are evil. All it means is that its difficult for those people to identify with normal humans. All Kotomine had left as passion was the innate Schadenfreude tendencies most humans have (you know stuff like slapstick comedy, watching a train wreck and watching people you envy mess up or fail). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude
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Mar 30, 2012 17:10
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Factor_VIII posted:Yeah. Kotomine is mentally ill. I'd say what makes him sympathetic is that he spends most of his life trying really hard to atone for and not to act on his impulses. If you're talking about Kotomine so far in F/Z, he doesn't even remotely meet the criteria for Sadistic Personality Disorder and if you're arguing that he's a sociopath there is no reason he would be trying to atone for his impulses because he wouldn't think they were wrong to begin with. Uryuu is a sociopath and a sadist. Kotomine? Not even close. Unless we're just supposed to swallow Gilgamesh's––totally out of the blue––"lol you want Kyaria ending because it would be the most horrible and you want to see people suffer" line as-is. So far, Kotomine just seems highly suggestible by virtue of "not having a wish" so he believes whatever Gil tells him he wants. I have no idea if that makes any sense with what happens later, but that's how it comes off to me.
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Mar 30, 2012 17:11
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Good_Haro posted:If you're talking about Kotomine so far in F/Z, he doesn't even remotely meet the criteria for Sadistic Personality Disorder and if you're arguing that he's a sociopath there is no reason he would be trying to atone for his impulses because he wouldn't think they were wrong to begin with. It makes Kotomine the perfect opposite of Kiritsugu. Kotomine is fundamentally abnormal and sought to attain normal human happiness all his life but never got to experience it and ended up getting stuck being an assassin. Conversely Kiritsugu had the normal happiness Kotomine sought all his life, in the form of his family, but decided to consciously cast it aside in pursuit of his ideal.
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Mar 30, 2012 17:20
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Good_Haro posted:If you're talking about Kotomine so far in F/Z, he doesn't even remotely meet the criteria for Sadistic Personality Disorder and if you're arguing that he's a sociopath there is no reason he would be trying to atone for his impulses because he wouldn't think they were wrong to begin with. He knew the impulse was wrong because he was raised in an environment that constantly expect people to suppress them. His father was a priest after all. Its pretty much what he had been taught all his life. Gilgamesh wasn't trying to bullshit, he said that he noticed stuff like Kotomine giving special attention to Kariya by focusing his spies on him. Gilgamesh didn't claim that he knows Kotomine, he was more interested in prodding out Kotomine's true desires. Hence the reason for him asking Kotomine to order the assassins to also note the targets' daily life and behavior. Randomzx fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 17:22
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Factor_VIII posted:It's because of his religious upbringing. He realizes his impulses are wrong on an intellectual level because they conflict with his beliefs even though they don't feel wrong to him. He's thus able to behave as a pretty normal human even though he's only acting out the part. Well if that's the case, the anime's done a terrible job of presenting both characters so far.
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Mar 30, 2012 17:26
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Good_Haro posted:Well if that's the case, the anime's done a terrible job of presenting both characters so far. Hence my problems with the adaptation of the LN.
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Mar 30, 2012 17:28
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Good_Haro posted:Uryuu is a sociopath and a sadist. Kotomine? Not even close. Unless we're just supposed to swallow Gilgamesh's––totally out of the blue––"lol you want Kyaria ending because it would be the most horrible and you want to see people suffer" line as-is. So far, Kotomine just seems highly suggestible by virtue of "not having a wish" so he believes whatever Gil tells him he wants. Kotomine deliberately had the Assassins trail Kariya more closely than any other master because he was secretly enjoying watching Kariyas suffering, Gilgamesh just pointed it out to him. Kotomine basically has spent his entire life trying to repress and avoid what makes him happy because he knows it's not normal, Gilgamesh basically tempted him with the line of "Hey you don't need to spend your entire life avoiding what makes you happy just to be normal". It's like Factor_VIII said, Kotomine and Kiritsugu are mirror images of each other. Kiritsugu gave up his humanity to save the world while Kotomine is trying to find his humanity through destruction.
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Mar 30, 2012 17:36
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Zahki posted:Kotomine deliberately had the Assassins trail Kariya more closely than any other master because he was secretly enjoying watching Kariyas suffering, Gilgamesh just pointed it out to him. Kotomine basically has spent his entire life trying to repress and avoid what makes him happy because he knows it's not normal, Gilgamesh basically tempted him with the line of "Hey you don't need to spend your entire life avoiding what makes you happy just to be normal". Look, all I'm trying to say is that the anime's portrayal of this whole thing is painfully ineffective. It's a whole bunch of people just telling you what X character is supposedly feeling while the rest of their actions and scenes don't really seem to support it.
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Mar 30, 2012 17:42
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Good_Haro posted:Look, all I'm trying to say is that the anime's portrayal of this whole thing is painfully ineffective. It's a whole bunch of people just telling you what X character is supposedly feeling while the rest of their actions and scenes don't really seem to support it. I never read the novels so I don't know anything about what happens later in the story, but I am pretty sure Kotomine will play a much larger role down the line, and more will be revealed about who he is and what his motivations are. Right now he is just a dude helping another guy, and showing up randomly to screw with the main character.
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Mar 30, 2012 18:04
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One more weeeeeeeeeeeeeek
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Mar 30, 2012 18:25
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http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17415605 YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
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Mar 31, 2012 13:25
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I gotta say, these Blu-ray specials are pretty great. Sayaka Ohara is completely knocking it out of the park as Iri.
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Mar 31, 2012 14:25
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http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17419135 MORE YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
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Mar 31, 2012 18:39
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Uryuu just looks so darn happy.  
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Mar 31, 2012 19:07
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For anyone curious this guy has a listing of most of the changes from the TV->BD version. There were quite a few extra scenes in the last few episodes of the first season that were added to the BDs, and a ton of the lighting was updated. A lot of the off-model character designs were fixed as well, even at times when the level of difference was very minor. E: Also, this is neat. 
jonjonaug fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Apr 1, 2012 |
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Apr 1, 2012 17:42
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What are you guys talking about I'm pretty sure at this point in F/Z he only knew that nothing he could do made him happy which makes him very apathetic about everything, he finds out that he enjoys people suffering later.
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Apr 1, 2012 19:05
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:What are you guys talking about I'm pretty sure at this point in F/Z he only knew that nothing he could do made him happy which makes him very apathetic about everything, he finds out that he enjoys people suffering later. He knows this on some level, but he's pretty heavily into self-denial. The stuff in the flashback in this scene from F/SN has already happened.
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Apr 1, 2012 19:10
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Nichibros/Zero
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Apr 1, 2012 20:25
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Grail War Combatants are Funky Why do you try so hard to live!Why won't you just die!
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Apr 1, 2012 20:55
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AlternateNu posted:Nichibros/Zero Toradora/Tiger Colosseum 
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Apr 1, 2012 22:34
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Marin Karin posted:Toradora/Tiger Colosseum Fate/Saiban 
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Apr 2, 2012 17:07
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-04-02/fate/zero-anime-2nd-season-to-screen-at-sakura-con If anyone's near Seattle (or otherwise going to Sakura-con) there's a chance to watch episodes 14 and 15 this Saturday. The series producers and Urobuchi Gen are going to be in attendance as well.
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Apr 2, 2012 22:21
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3 more days...
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Apr 3, 2012 20:28
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Man, I really want an "Admirable" T-shirt. It's subtle, yet instantly recognizable. Anyone know if they sell them anywhere?
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Apr 4, 2012 20:00
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Play a little catch? edit: edited black bars out. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Apr 4, 2012 |
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Apr 4, 2012 20:14
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^^That reminds me of how much better Berserker would have looked if he wasn't CGI. Was there any concrete reason why they did that? Was it some sort of budget thing?
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Apr 4, 2012 22:10
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It's supposed to be hard to see Berserker, it's an ability he has. That's the main reason I think.
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Apr 4, 2012 22:18
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The description in the novels say that he looked indistinct, almost otherworldly. The CG effect actually brings that across well except for the fact everyone sees it as OMG CGI before anything else =/
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Apr 5, 2012 00:22
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ChronoReverse posted:The description in the novels say that he looked indistinct, almost otherworldly. The CG effect actually brings that across well except for the fact everyone sees it as OMG CGI before anything else =/ 100% Agreed. Frankly, I think Berserker looks great. Most of the CG in this show has been highly tasteful and subdued compared to most of its contemporaries. While he is probably the most noticeable and "egregious," I still think he's come across very well for the most part.
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Apr 5, 2012 00:36
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Neo_Crimson posted:^^That reminds me of how much better Berserker would have looked if he wasn't CGI. According to the staff interview from the Fate/Zero blu-ray box, it was because Berserker has a black haze effect surrounding him that did not mesh well with traditional animation at all. So what the staff ended up doing was first animating Berserker normally, then applying the CG on top of the animation, then applying the haze effect.
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Apr 5, 2012 01:48
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Personally I think trying to convey "indistinct and otherworldly" with CGI and a black DBZ aura is a bad stylistic choice, but that's just me.
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Apr 5, 2012 02:00
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