quote:

To be fair, the game is designed for all types of classes being necessary so they have their own moment to shine.

quote:

That's flat-out wrong. "The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." I.e. the tarrasque would have a 50% miss chance but since its attack is treated as an epic magic weapon it would be able to affect the Allip. Once a hit connected the Allip would be toast.

Mystic Mongol posted:

Fighters are better than clerics at absolutely nothing.

Mystic Mongol posted:

The allip will probably chill about five feet beneath the ground, making insubstantial touch attacks up at the Tarrasque. The 50% miss chance stings a bit, but since the Tarrasque has touch armor of 5 and the Allip hits 95% of the time, it's not that big a deal.

Factor_VIII posted:

The Tarrasque can simply ready an action to bite it when it pops out.

NihilCredo posted:

The Tarrasque still can't hit ethereal creatures, though, right? If so, any spellcaster capable of casting Shapechange (even from a scroll) should be able to single-handedly take down the Tarrasque by switching back and forth between allip and phase spider forms.

NihilCredo posted:

Of course, the existence of a 4 HD monster that can seriously threaten the Tarrasque suggests that the obvious way should be for a necromancer to summon a bunch of them, maybe give them a few combat buffs, and have them kamikaze (it should only take an average of six attacks to take down Mr. T), but I don't think there are core spells that let you summon an undead of your choice.

Mystic Mongol posted:

Why pop out? It can just stay underground.

Factor_VIII posted:

To be fair, we are talking about a character with access to 9th level spells here. Those are normally the province of at least 17th level characters and the Tarrasque is a CR 20 creature.

True, a horde of allips could potentially overwhelm the Tarrasque, but this is a bit of a special case. Most high level enemies have magic in the form of spells or items that would let them deal with such a threat (if only by teleporting away). And yes, spellcasters can't summon undead of their choice, so that whole "low level spellcasters can summon an allip and kill the tarrasque" thing circulating on the web is a fun story but doesn't really work.

Zereth posted:

Most spells in 3.x don't require you to roll poo poo, actually. Just point at where it goes off and then people in it have to roll to not just take the full force of it to the face, unless you chose a spell which doesn't even give them that.

IMJack posted:

That's one thing I really like about 4th edition. If the spellcaster is rolling for their spell to succeed against a target, it feels like the spellcaster is actually doing something, moreso than just waving their fingers and leaving the target to deal with whatever spell's been cast. But saving throws vs. spells are another sacred cow from AD&D.

Factor_VIII posted:

There's SR. But to be honest I like the fact that spellcasters in D&D can reliably get their spells off instead of having to roll to successfully cast them.

Mystic Mongol posted:

It's nice for them, certainly. Non-casters have a failure chance on their inferior actions, though.

How many locks has Haley Starshine picked over the course of this comic? Enough to make a dent in a wand of knock, or would the party still have almost all of the charges left? She'd be a better thief if she were a wizard or bard instead, because skills are inferior to spells and sneak attack is garbage.

Factor_VIII posted:

A fighter doesn't have a failure chance to try and swing his sword though.

Mystic Mongol posted:

It's called 'missing'. It's not uncommon.

Factor_VIII posted:

Most offensive spells have saves. And those that don't require touch attacks. And there's also SR.

NihilCredo posted:

Yeah, mechanically there's zero difference between having the victim roll a saving throw vs. DC and having the wizard roll a magic version of attack roll vs. AC.

Mystic Mongol posted:

This whole detour was started by Vitrolic Sphere, which has a save against the secondary effect, no touch attack, and ignores SR.

quote:

VITRIOLIC SPHERE
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No

Affected creatures take 6d6 points of acid damage. Creatures that succeed on their Reflex saving throws take half of this damage. Creatures that fail their Reflex saves take full damage, and also take 6d6 points of acid damage in each of the following 2 rounds.
Material Component: A tiny glass vial filled with aqua regia.

Factor_VIII posted:

Yes some of the offensive conjuration spells from Spell Compendium are overpowered, but Vitriolic Sphere does allow a reflex save for half damage (and saving eliminates the damage normally done on subsequent rounds).

Shugojin posted:

...So it allows a Reflex save for half damage. Which is the exact thing that Evasion, one of the hallmarks of a rogue, applies to. Which would let Haley and her Evasion (probably Improved at this point but whatever) take no damage.

Evasion description posted:

If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage.

Zereth posted:

Except that your attack score is generally relatively static, while there were large gaps between your good and bad saves in 3.x, which a canny spellcaster could generally make at least a good guess at and pick a spell which targets their victim's weak save(s).

NihilCredo posted:

The description doesn't say "partial damage" or whatever, it explicitly says "half damage", and incidentally every core spell that works this way does it by having "Save: Reflex half" in the description.

Letting Evasion work vs. Vitriolic Sphere can be a sensible house rule to make the spell slightly less stupid, but it would definitely have to be a house rule.

Complete Arcane posted:

Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5, wu jen 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Reflex negates and Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: No

You conjure a sizzling emerald sphere that drenches all within the area with a potent acid. Affected creatures take 1d4 points of acid damage per caster level (maximum 15d4) and must succeed on a Reflex save or risk taking damage in the following 2 rounds (6d4 points of damage in the second round and 3d4 points of damage in the third round). Both rounds of continuing damage are subject to Reflexx saves for half damage; if an affected creature succeeds on its second Reflex save, it takes no acid damage in the third round.

Mystic Mongol posted:

That's not Vitrolic Sphere from the Complete Arcane.

404GoonNotFound posted:

All this "oh god spellcasters " chat is once again reminding me of my confusion over why anyone would hate 4e for trying to be more balanced.

Yeah Man posted:

Ask and you shall receive.

404GoonNotFound posted:

All this "oh god spellcasters " chat is once again reminding me of my confusion over why anyone would hate 4e for trying to be more balanced.

NihilCredo posted:

What is even known about 5E at this point? Last I heard about it was the whole "we want to hear from people who actually play" thing a few months back.

404GoonNotFound posted:

All this "oh god spellcasters " chat is once again reminding me of my confusion over why anyone would hate 4e for trying to be more balanced.

Factor_VIII posted:

I think the way your phrasing is loaded. Some of the changes 4e instituted are good, e.g. giving more options to melee classes and making it so low level spellcasters don't spend most of the day acting as crossbowmen, as well as removing the abolishing level loss from dying and reducing the number of skills (how often did Use Rope come into play?). However I do get the feeling that the approach with 4e was to try and make things easier for the GM by simply restricting the things players were able to do in previous editions (e.g. no teleporting) as well as homogenizing things to an extent, such as by having undead function in a pretty similar manner to living opponents e.g having Con scores and being just as vulnerable to enchantment spells for example. Also things you can do out of combat with magic seem much more restricted; rituals exist but are they are fewer in number, take longer to cast, are harder to pull off and are pretty expensive.

Also the whole mess with the all the errata is pretty annoying. Trying to create a character without a D&D insider subscription is a pain in the rear end.

Personally I'd say my favorite incarnation of D&D is Pathfinder. It nerfed some pretty broken spells such as Divine Power, Force Cage and Shapechange as well as broken abilities like Wildshape. Also it gives more customization options for classes, such as barbarian rage powers, rogue abilities and extra additional fighter feats. (As well as doing some other rule changes such as reducing the number of skills and abolishing having to pay double for cross-class skills and removing level loss for being raised from the dead).

Factor_VIII posted:

Factor_VIII posted:

However I do get the feeling that the approach with 4e was to try and make things easier for the GM by simply restricting the things players were able to do in previous editions

Factor_VIII posted:

(e.g. no teleporting)

Factor_VIII posted:

Also things you can do out of combat with magic seem much more restricted; rituals exist but are they are fewer in number, take longer to cast, are harder to pull off and are pretty expensive.

DontMockMySmock posted:

You can't have even skimmed the 4e PHB and think this. Warlocks and eladrin (and especially eladrin warlocks) love the teleporting. You can make a character whose whole schtick is to teleport around and do cool teleportation tricks and stuff. You can make a monk that does the whole Dragonball Z move-so-fast-it's-a-teleport-and-punch-out-your-kidneys thing. You can be a wizard and set up teleportation circles to go places quickly.

Pope Guilty posted:

Wizards of the Coast have confirmed that the things you don't like form the backbone of the new edition.

quote:

Teleporting in 4e requires line of sight. Which means it's useless if you e.g. get swallowed by something and much less useful as a way of escaping from a difficult situation.

DrakePegasus posted:

I've been wanting to get some experience as a DM by running a 4E game, but I'm a bit deterred by the financial commitment. Did those Shamen By The Shoreline ever drop the "Blizzard charges monthly, so we can, too!" thing?

MadScientistWorking posted:

Nope. It doesn't.