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The "casual walk" in Chongqing has the banners of "We want to eat!" and "Give back our Wang Seng district". It's probably a totally unrelated protect held at a very unfortunately timed moment. There are too many fake news, I can't tell if it's true. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Apr 11, 2012 |
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Apr 11, 2012 17:04
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It is an unrelated protest, apparently over the merging of the Wansheng and Qijiang districts in Chongqing. But my guess is current tensions are likely feeding into it as well. Wansheng district, Qijiang district, and the protesters' slogan "We want to eat" (我们要吃饭) have all been blocked on Weibo, suggesting it is true.
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Apr 11, 2012 17:17
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I saw "we want to eat" written on banners at a (much smaller) protest in Wuhan last fall. Oh and "the subway is a monster." Nice slogans.
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Apr 11, 2012 20:17
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I feel bad for Wan LiJun. He went to the US consulate and spilled his guts about god knows what and then was kicked out into the waiting arms of the Chinese police. We didn't (and obviously couldn't) offer him asylum.
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Apr 11, 2012 21:54
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Vladimir Putin posted:I feel bad for Wan LiJun. He went to the US consulate and spilled his guts about god knows what and then was kicked out into the waiting arms of the Chinese police. We didn't (and obviously couldn't) offer him asylum. Don't feel too bad, many accounts seem to indicate that he was a brutally effective, but quite corrupt cop while serving in Liaoning, and he was instrumental in the Chongqing anti-gang campaign which in its heavy-handedness allegedly subjected many innocent businessmen and officials to torture and unlawful imprisonment. He was part of a brutal system until very recently, but seems to have been caught in the meat-grinder when people at the very top of the government attempted to oust his erstwhile boss. I can't really be bothered to go through four years worth of Chinese news coverage to confirm this, but it's been said on the Chinese internet that neither Hu Jintao nor Wen Jiabao has visited Chongqing during Bo's four-year tenure as the city's party boss, and that the appointment to that position itself was meant to exile Bo from national politics.
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Apr 11, 2012 23:08
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Edit: Nevermind.
french lies fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Apr 12, 2012 |
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Apr 12, 2012 06:48
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Honestly at this point I'm super glad this whole leadership kerfluffle happened just because it's gotten me reading a whole bunch of stuff I never would have looked at before and it's fascinating. Who knew Wen Jiabao's mentor was Bo Xilai's father's enemy in the Cultural Revolution? Not me. From what I've been reading the hereditary entrenchment of party power is a lot scarier than I previously thought.
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Apr 12, 2012 08:44
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Shageletic posted:Check out this article: The Revenge of Wen Jiabo Excellent article, thanks. Ever wonder how the entire Bo incident relates to you personally? Well, one of my favorite bloggers did just that, provided you are in business in chinia.
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Apr 12, 2012 12:46
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Ok I am going to try to translate this news item. Personally I believe it. These are all old news and the names checked out. I am actually more upset by these old news than the more currents rumors. It shows how deep the rabbit hole goes. 1587613_1334166679 quote:Xinhua reported yesterday, former Chongqing chief Bo Xilai has violated various laws and is being invested. His wife Bo-Gu Kailai and family staff Zhang Xiaojun were invloved in the murder of British businessman Neil Heywood. And they are being investigated. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 04:01
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whatever7 posted:The "casual walk" in Chongqing has the banners of "We want to eat!" and "Give back our Wang Seng district". So is this the beginnings of an Occupy China, or something? zero alpha fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 06:26
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zero alpha posted:So is this the beginnings of an Occupy China, or something? Haha, no. That is silly.
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Apr 13, 2012 07:36
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zero alpha posted:So is this the beginnings of an Occupy China, or something? No, they just pissy about some districting changes and now that bobo is finito, it's safe to come out and bitch about it.
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Apr 13, 2012 08:23
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zero alpha posted:So is this the beginnings of an Occupy China, or something? I hear they had an Occupy Beijing movement once. It didn't turn out well. (I had such a hard time repressing the urge to say that last time I was in China when someone mentioned he'd seen the Occupy protests on TV)
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Apr 13, 2012 09:15
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How big is social unrest against the government in China? I've seen many news stories of massive protests at various factories across the country, but I also hear about major political apathy amongst most civilians. How much of a grip does the government have?
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Apr 13, 2012 09:58
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Donraj posted:I hear they had an Occupy Beijing movement once. It didn't turn out well. I thought that was about Occupying Beijing's Toilets.
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Apr 13, 2012 11:22
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Ervin K posted:How big is social unrest against the government in China? I've seen many news stories of massive protests at various factories across the country, but I also hear about major political apathy amongst most civilians. How much of a grip does the government have? Are these factories privately owned or government owned? And if they are government owned is it local government or the national government?
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Apr 13, 2012 18:57
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Ervin K posted:How big is social unrest against the government in China? I've seen many news stories of massive protests at various factories across the country, but I also hear about major political apathy amongst most civilians. How much of a grip does the government have? That's kind of a big question. Beijing likes to use the lack of a unified anti-government movement as proof that Chinese are extremely happy with the way things are going, but given how much time, money, and effort they have to use to prevent anything like that from coalescing, that doesn't really seem like valid evidence. People are also very much aware that the cost of dissidence is really high, and there are (fairly successful) mechanisms in place to keep people angry at local politicians instead of the national-level structures that are responsible for the way the game is played in China. "But you see it's those bad guys at the local level" doesn't really make much sense as an excuse when Beijing reserves ultimate power for itself only. CCP apologists still try it, with one hilarious example recently being claims that Chen Guangcheng is a victim of local politics that Beijing couldn't possibly do anything about. Apathy is certainly a real thing, although talking to a ton of random young people in China started to disabuse me of that- for anyone who truly didn't seem to care about politics, there were others who did want some kind of change but just didn't have any kind of forum for discussion or avenue for action. I guess it's just really hard to tell in an authoritarian country that goes to such great lengths to manufacture political consent and inaction. Even in the major factory protests you referred to, or things like the Wukan Uprising last year, people tend to appeal to the Communist Party to set things straight- although how much of that is from a genuine belief that the emperors in Beijing are really unaware of their plight and how much is from an understanding that you have to phrase your request that way if you want to make it out of a protest alive is a mystery, I think. Certainly netizens seem to be increasingly aware that Beijing knows and either doesn't give a gently caress or actively approves and supports local governments, but whether that correlates with a change in the rest of the population is a question whose answer I don't know.
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Apr 13, 2012 21:10
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My PRC friends here in Singapore really do give me the impression that they sincerely like the central government, and lay blame on bad things on China on the local governments. So it does seem to be working.
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Apr 14, 2012 04:54
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Are there any reliable information about China's unemployment and economically inactive rates?
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Apr 14, 2012 05:29
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I happened to ask a Chinese friend a few days ago and he said the official unemployment rate is 0.5%. Then we laughed.
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Apr 14, 2012 09:16
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Just finished reading this excellent essay/book review by Fang Lizhi, the famous dissident who died earlier this week. I have to confess I don't know all that much about him, but reading this has sparked my interest. The book he reviews is the recent Deng Xiaoping biography by Ezra Vogel. He tears both him and the book a new one in the most elegant, understated way possible. It's a fascinating deconstruction of the narrative that the CCP promotes and Western observers like Vogel and Martin Jacques are unwittingly propagating. I especially found his final two paragraphs quite poignant: quote:A virtue of Vogel’s book is that it collects and organizes a huge amount of material on the struggles within the elite power circles in China over several decades. In these accounts we learn how Deng tried to protect his allies and how he sought to undermine his enemies; he fell, rose, fell again, then rose again to the pinnacle position in the second generation of the Communist dynasty. Vogel’s materials will be very useful to students of elite power struggles in China.
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Apr 14, 2012 12:46
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So, Bo Guagua has surfaced and might get political asylum in the US? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-officials.html Not sure why we would give him asylum as he is almost undoubtedly complicit in corruption. I don't suppose he would be likely to get a fair trial in China though.
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Apr 14, 2012 18:42
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Fiendish_Ghoul posted:So, Bo Guagua has surfaced and might get political asylum in the US? Ugh, I would definitely oppose giving asylum to Guagua. According Guagua's mother, Gu Kailai, everyone gets a fair trial in China. 'She said (in her book titled Winning a Lawsuit in the U.S., China’s system was straightforward and judicious. “We don’t play with words and we adhere to the principle of ‘based on facts,’ ” she wrote. “You will be arrested, sentenced and executed as long as we determine that you killed someone.”' Guagua is complicit with crimes against the people, he must be punished. If he doesn't face justice, surely he will be a future threat to China, his whole family are vindictive assholes after all.
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Apr 15, 2012 00:36
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You forgot her real money quote: her contemptuous dismissal of the idea that in America, a man can be charged with raping his wife. Oh, and would you mind breaking down for me which if any parts of your post are sarcastic? Because I'm having a hard time telling. Fiendish_Ghoul fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 01:46
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Ervin K posted:How big is social unrest against the government in China? I've seen many news stories of massive protests at various factories across the country, but I also hear about major political apathy amongst most civilians. How much of a grip does the government have? Of course, protests and such occurs mostly in the rural areas, people there -might- be less political apathetic simply because they are getting screwed more by the local government on a daily basis.
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Apr 15, 2012 04:35
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Fiendish_Ghoul posted:So, Bo Guagua has surfaced and might get political asylum in the US? It's probably worth some US political points to oppose the CCP though.
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Apr 15, 2012 11:39
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Fangz posted:It's probably worth some US political points to oppose the CCP though. I don't see how giving asylum to a Communist princeling will give anyone points.
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Apr 15, 2012 13:10
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Typo posted:If you are in a first or second tier city or talking to one of its residents (which most westerner interaction with China is going to be) then Social unrest is very limited as is political participation. Because life for them is very good (pretty much on par with western standards for many) and some of them either believe the line that China's political process is needed for China (the Suzhi thing) or because they don't really think anything can be changed anyway. Also, party membership is relatively high (more teachers and other employees who need political approval) and the state and party apparatuses can be less tightly tied together in large cities. In a small town, there's one school, three roads, etc etc -- all closely tied to the local party boss and mayor, and their three best friends. If you live in, I dunno, Wenzhou or something, the government's services and structure are a little more neutral, complex, widespread, and less closely tied to specific party leaders. I don't think it's fair to dismiss city residents as somehow more lazy, misinformed, pampered, or whatever. Their context makes personal contact with highly disruptive and malicious political corruption less likely. But on the other side, they're actually more likely to have the media exposure and education to make in-party critiques and bring perspective to a desire for change, even though they are much less likely to participate in direct social unrest.
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Apr 15, 2012 13:26
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Forums seem to be blocked in my area (Henan) now, bet you it's the fault of this very thread! I'd suggest everyone get goagent if you haven't already got a VPN or something.
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Apr 15, 2012 23:35
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Typo posted:If you are in a first or second tier city or talking to one of its residents (which most westerner interaction with China is going to be) then Social unrest is very limited as is political participation. Because life for them is very good (pretty much on par with western standards for many) and some of them either believe the line that China's political process is needed for China (the Suzhi thing) or because they don't really think anything can be changed anyway. That's not a fair statement. First and 2nd tier cities residents faces much higher real estate pressure. The real estate cost has raised as much as 50% in the last 5 years.
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Apr 16, 2012 01:21
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Ronald Spiers posted:I don't see how giving asylum to a Communist princeling will give anyone points. The Chinese want him back, and that's enough. That it's opposing the Chinese would be the important thing. The individual can easily be painted as a heroic dissident or a political victim as needed - if not by the admin, then by his opponents looking for ammunition for claiming Obama is 'soft on China'. Who would be expected to look into the details?
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Apr 16, 2012 10:36
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Ronald Spiers posted:I don't see how giving asylum to a Communist princeling will give anyone points. Can US intelligence get any info out of granting our dear princeling asylum? If so, then I can see it going through. If not, I see a media frenzy about it if it goes through.
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Apr 16, 2012 12:57
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french lies posted:Just finished reading this excellent essay/book review by Fang Lizhi, the famous dissident who died earlier this week. I have to confess I don't know all that much about him, but reading this has sparked my interest. I didn't found that as convincing as you. I haven't yet finished the book but about 80% through and I've found that while it does have a top-heavy focus, it's to be expected - it's ultimately more a biography focused on the 60s-90s rather than a book about socio-political change in China. Some of Fang's comments also seem a little odd, eg: Fang Lizhi posted:The military. Vogel has a chapter called “The Military: Preparing for Modernization,” but “modernization” here refers only to matters of arms and efficiency, not to such matters as civilian control of what the military does. It is not widely appreciated outside China that the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) is not a national army; it is a Party army. The taxes that support it are paid by all of the Chinese people, but the PLA takes orders only from the Central Military Commission (CMC), which is a Party organ. When push comes to shove, as it did at Tiananmen in 1989, the PLA defends Party interests, not national interests. Deng Xiaoping was never president of China, but was chair of the CMC throughout the crucial decade of the 1980s (1981–1989). He well knew that the top military post was the most powerful in China. Vogel writes a fair amount about the party machinations at the head of the CMC and Deng and the party's control over the CMC. The book did not lead me to believe that these were independent structures and Vogel mentions more than once that for Deng the party was paramount. I've found Vogel to be hagiographic in some respect, but it's been a valuable read. Conversely, Fang's views have clearly been coloured by personal experience and the review seems more a chance to proselytise his dislike of Deng.
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Apr 16, 2012 14:16
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Fangz posted:The Chinese want him back, and that's enough. That it's opposing the Chinese would be the important thing. The individual can easily be painted as a heroic dissident or a political victim as needed - if not by the admin, then by his opponents looking for ammunition for claiming Obama is 'soft on China'. Who would be expected to look into the details? Wow, what an amazingly short-sighted thing to do. There is no way to paint him as a heroic dissident or political victim. Everyone knows he is a playboy who relied on his parents black and soiled money. If anything, he would be a potential threat to the US if he is of anything like his vindictive parents, especially if he is like his Maoist father. None of his classmates mention he had pro-reform and pro-democracy dispositions, in fact his classmates describe him at best a Chinese patriot, at worst a nationalist. It is a known fact before the whole scandal broke-out, he wanted to eventually go back to China and follow in his father's footsteps or make a billion dollars and be an influential player in Chinese governance. He must face the justice of People's Republic! Stim0r posted:Can US intelligence get any info out of granting our dear princeling asylum? If so, then I can see it going through. If not, I see a media frenzy about it if it goes through. I bet Guagua has absolutely no useful intelligence in regards to national security. As stated previously, all he was was a playboy college student. The US government even refused Wang Lijun, former chief of police of Chongqing.
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Apr 16, 2012 19:13
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Interesting article on corruption in the Chinese military. It seems heavily based on private statements by a Gen. Liu Yuan though and I have no idea how accurate a source he is, but it seems probable. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/16/rotting_from_within edit: quote:The US government even refused Wang Lijun, former chief of police of Chongqing. That's almost assuredly because he walked into a consulate in the middle of China. It would have been essentially impossible to accept him. Xandu fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 17, 2012 |
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Apr 17, 2012 01:30
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Xandu posted:
Tell that to Fang Lizhi!
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Apr 17, 2012 06:00
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whatever7 posted:That's not a fair statement. First and 2nd tier cities residents faces much higher real estate pressure.
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Apr 17, 2012 08:18
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I didn't found that as convincing as you. I haven't yet finished the book but about 80% through and I've found that while it does have a top-heavy focus, it's to be expected - it's ultimately more a biography focused on the 60s-90s rather than a book about socio-political change in China. As for the bit about the CMC, I'm too far removed from the material to really comment, but I do think you're right about Fang having an axe to grind with Deng and that he uses the book as a stepping stone to do that. Even if he messes up some of the details, wouldn't you say that the larger point he's making, i.e that Deng isn't necessarily someone worth admiring, has some truth to it?
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Apr 17, 2012 08:36
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Xandu posted:That's almost assuredly because he walked into a consulate in the middle of China. It would have been essentially impossible to accept him. I seriously doubt he tried for asylum. It seems more of a ploy to force the issue on the central government and escape from Bo's influence in the short term. He wanted to keep his travel low-profile and driving to Chengdu is quick and easy. Hopping on a flight to Beijing? Not so much. If he actually did anything in the consulate, it was probably more of a dox dropping to force the central government to go after Bo.
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Apr 17, 2012 09:14
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:I seriously doubt he tried for asylum. It seems more of a ploy to force the issue on the central government and escape from Bo's influence in the short term. He wanted to keep his travel low-profile and driving to Chengdu is quick and easy. Hopping on a flight to Beijing? Not so much. If he actually did anything in the consulate, it was probably more of a dox dropping to force the central government to go after Bo. I think this is more plausible, the woman who writes at insideoutchina said he was basically trying to get Beijing's ear as quickly as possible and figured the consulate could relay his message safely. She also said that Bo's police and Beijing police had a scuffle when Wang eventually left the consulate, with Bo's guys trying to prevent him from going with the Boys from Beijing. quote:Wang then walked into a melee between two forces waiting outside: Seventy police wagons sent by Bo Xilai, and agents of State Security sent from Beijing. The two parties scuffled and argued about who would take Wang Lijun into custody. In the end, Wang's plan worked: he was escorted to Beijing instead of Chongqing.
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Apr 17, 2012 09:37
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