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Skandiaavity posted:Hear, hear. I'll drink to that. So is it inherently better to be an FSO as opposed to an expat? Or what are the pros and cons to each facet?
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Apr 12, 2012 03:46
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:So is it inherently better to be an FSO as opposed to an expat? Or what are the pros and cons to each facet? There is a lot of overlap between the two groups. The biggest differences are:
Both are good ways to get overseas and to live comfortably once there. Personally, if the right opportunity came along in the private sector, I might take it, though I have trouble imagining any way my skill set could translate into anything lucrative. In any case, right now I'm having too much fun (yes, fun) as an FSO to spend too much time thinking about jumping ship.
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Apr 12, 2012 05:06
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All of us had good jobs, but I'm glad I wasn't spending my whole time trying to improve manufacturing yield at a factory in a third-tier city. Of course, there are some awesome private-sector expat jobs out there (I know a guy who is general counsel for the NBA in a major Asian country, for example), but you can imagine how lucky one needs to be to get one of those jobs.
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:So is it inherently better to be an FSO as opposed to an expat? Or what are the pros and cons to each facet? Can't speak as a FSO yet.. I just got accepted into the program. Business of Ferrets is your man for that. I was speaking as a former traveller, and an occasional overseas job. I agree with his post re: compensation and packages. I used to be a photographer, so my travel was for a short time, probably a few months for most places but some extensions here and there. I learned a lot, about a lot of places, but it's nowhere near enough. (for me) There is a monumental difference of going someplace, living in someplace, and being an actual role/part of the society. When your'e in a more integral role in the society, you're also involved with the community at large. You can actually see and feel the impacts of what you're doing. This works both ways. Living there, means you hold down a job of sorts, (such as say, Banker, a language teacher, software engineer, etc) or a student, etc. You experience things more in depth, learn about their cultures and customs, their daily living, etc. But strictly from my experience, you never really get the whole picture unless you're very perceptive. You can spend a long time but still not "get" society. UAE / Dubai and the resulting "expat migration", or some regions of Asia, are both very good examples, I think Expectations also play a key role. If you're just travelling, you can kinda do whatever you want. If you're working there, you are more conscious and attentive, but you haven't really got a stake there. If you're in an official capacity, you're representing, it's more transactional. Here in D.C., other countries' FSO/Diplomats are generally held in high regards socially. They're perceived as a country's bona fides. They don't have to be "on their best behavior at all times", but whatever they do, it's being seen as something their country accepts (or doesn't). That carries a lot more weight with it than if a traveller or a student would perform the same action. I look forward to being a FSO. But for an expat, I would have to echo that sentiment that it would depend entirely on the job, and, more importantly, how much you like doing it. The private sector and public sector are two very different beasts with their own expectations, so they're not easily compared.
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Apr 12, 2012 06:39
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Great responses from both of you! BoF, you mentioned getting contacts and reporting, so is it safe to assume you're Political track? My question is, when you're just starting out, how do gain those contacts in the host country's media, press, etc.? It sounds like it should be trickier than it looks, and it looks like a tricky enough thing to accomplish.
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Apr 12, 2012 07:23
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Great responses from both of you! Media contacts are usually Public Affairs gig. Even specialists make contacts, usually with ISPs in the country in the case of IMSs. I asked our Econ/Commercial Services Officer if he'd like a tour of one of the ISPs operations. We had full access and able to ask any kind of technical and operational questions we wanted. You could see why this would be of value to multiple parts of the U.S.G. Honestly, just saying, "I'm a 'insert position' at the U.S. Embassy and I was hoping to schedule meeting to discuss X" is all it takes. It's not rocket science or some super hard tradecraft to make contacts. As BoF said, working at the Embassy, it's very easy to get access to VIP level events, just because you're a member of the Foreign Service. Compensation wise, it’s a mix bag. Sometimes I’ve run into expats who’s compensation package I’m quite envious of, but, my wife and I can make it work. It helps once you’re FS-3 or 2. Only making FS-5 money when overseas can make taking fun trips a tad more difficult or you just won’t be able to do as many or stay in the same hotels that other FSOs can afford.
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Apr 12, 2012 13:28
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You'll either get thrown into it, or be introduced by your bosses (hopefully). People at the working level, I just ask my local staff who I need to see, and then have them arrange a meeting, and develop contacts that way. Ministerial level people I usually attend with the Ambassador, or other senior FSOs (but not always, sometimes you just have to get the meeting really quickly and the Ambassador has a conflict so you are just tasked to do it on your own.) There are usually plenty of other embassy staff that know most of these people, so building the contact base isn't as bad as it sounds. For me, the easiest part was that I came a week before the fourth of july party, in which I was introduced to everyone; also my predecessor left me two rolodex's stuffed with names.
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Apr 12, 2012 13:29
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:My question is, when you're just starting out, how do gain those contacts in the host country's media, press, etc.? It sounds like it should be trickier than it looks, and it looks like a tricky enough thing to accomplish. To elaborate, as an FSO, as other folks have said, usually you're already established, you've got predecessors, local staff, and the name of the US Gov't to aid you. In the expat / private industry, you may be expected to be the one, or part of the team, that actually has to grow the business, break a product, or can be even simple as something as trying to land a consulting gig into a new area. Companies have also learned very harsh lessons, culturally, but for the most part they are improving by hiring multinational and local staff. These would be your primary go-to people (and i think it's also the same in the FS). From experience, making the contacts can be the least challenging part. A say, sports scout might have to roll up his sleeves and be very proactive in seeking things out - the same as he would back home. Someone at Large Business Co. might need to try to break new products in, or visit distribution centers to try to negotiate a deal. Except what comes next, how they do things back home, is not always how they do it overseas. They might not want to deal with a woman, for example. So when trying to explain how things are developing back to HQ in the US, folks might not be so understanding as they stress deadlines and quarterly profits. Hopefully you'll be with a smart company who knows the value in long term investment and appropriate contacts, but that doesn't make the job any less easy. That's one of the reasons why the retention or compensation packages can be very well done. If you love what you do, you'll be well-compensated, and have a blast. If you don't, it can be incredibly stressful. Skandiaavity fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Apr 12, 2012 |
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Apr 12, 2012 14:58
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quote:boy you sure caused a lot of trouble with that email  Good times, also, SecState is almost here. TCD fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 19:15
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Tell me there's a story?
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Apr 13, 2012 21:28
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Diplomaticus posted:Tell me there's a story? Well, it could be summed up by a IRM middish level guy telling the RSO for the mission how to do part of his job. And the IRM guy is actually right for once. Aside from that it's a classnet convo 
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Apr 13, 2012 21:37
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TCD posted:Well, it could be summed up by a IRM middish level guy telling the RSO for the mission how to do part of his job. For once? Stop being modest.
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Apr 13, 2012 22:58
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Homie S posted:For once? Stop being modest. lol
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Apr 13, 2012 23:56
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Got my handshake. You can find me in heart of darkness Africa come 2014.
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Apr 14, 2012 17:21
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Homie S posted:Got my handshake. You can find me in heart of darkness Africa come 2014. Kinshasa?
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Apr 14, 2012 17:36
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drat, I'll be out of the continent by then.
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Apr 14, 2012 18:27
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Diplomaticus posted:drat, I'll be out of the continent by then. foreignserviceproblems.txt
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Apr 14, 2012 18:28
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TCD posted:Kinshasa? Djibouti.
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Apr 15, 2012 02:58
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Homie S posted:Djibouti. That's more of the rectum.
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Apr 15, 2012 12:58
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Vilerat posted:That's more of the rectum. Well it's still dark 
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Apr 15, 2012 16:32
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Homie S posted:Well it's still dark The heart of darkness is somewhere like Goma and the Kivus - where raping and pillaging of villages is common, and bush meat might give you a hemoragic fever. Djibouti is all together a different animal. Also I know the FSNP that's headed there. Good people (the efm husband looks like rasta man/hippie with long dreadlocks but is cool as poo poo).
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Apr 15, 2012 19:22
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TCD posted:The heart of darkness is somewhere like Goma and the Kivus - where raping and pillaging of villages is common, and bush meat might give you a hemoragic fever. Djibouti is all together a different animal. FSNP? Some sort of FSN supervisor?
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Apr 15, 2012 20:32
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Homie S posted:FSNP? Some sort of FSN supervisor? Foreign Service Nurse Practitioner. Nurse who can fill prescriptions and stuff.
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Apr 15, 2012 21:09
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TCD posted:Foreign Service Nurse Practitioner. Roger roger. I thought in most posts the NP would be some FSO's wife or some such.
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Apr 15, 2012 21:10
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Nah. At our post, we have an RMO doctor, an RMO nurse with like 15 countries in her regional portfolio (Whichever kind is the kind you need like a masters in nursing for, it's like the advanced nursing one. Don't remember if that's RN or NP, or whatever), and then a FSNP who is not regional. All three are direct hire Americans. There's also a handful of FSN nurses.
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Apr 15, 2012 21:21
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Homie S posted:Roger roger. I thought in most posts the NP would be some FSO's wife or some such. Depends on the post. The FSNP in Rwanda also covered Burundi. Burundi's fulltime nurse was a FSN. Here in Brazil, the FSNP is posted to Brasilia and supports all the consulates. We don't have a RMO. We also have several FSN nurses and a local doctor who visits.
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Apr 15, 2012 22:35
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lol there's a picture of me on yahoo news photobombing a picture of SecState. goon in the grey suite http://my.news.yahoo.com/photos/u-secretary-state-clinton-receives-drawing-child-during-photo-175650310.html TCD fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Apr 16, 2012 |
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Apr 16, 2012 22:26
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So, I've been studying for the FSO exam, and it really looks fairly straightforward. My understanding is that a very small percentage of the people who initially take the FSOT exam actually become officers. What process weeds candidates out so much? Is there just a very low percentage of people chosen for an oral exam?
eonwe fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Apr 19, 2012 |
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Apr 19, 2012 03:22
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Eonwe - the QEP and the FSOA are the two biggest weeding out phases. This last phase that I went through, IIRC 27k took the FSOT, don't know how many passed, of those 9k were eliminated in QEP, and the pass rate at FSOA is historically around 30%.
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Apr 19, 2012 03:29
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Eonwe posted:So, I've been studying for the FSO exam, and it really looks fairly straightforward. My understanding is that a very small percentage of the people who initially take the FSOT exam actually become officers. What process weeds candidates out so much? I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine a certain number of people fall out of the process at every step of the way. X% fail the written exam itself X% pass but decline to submit their QEP X% submit the QEP but do not receive an invitation to the oral exam X% are invited to the oral exam but decline (perhaps can't afford to fly to DC) X% wash out during group exercises/interviews X% fail the medical/security review X% make it to this point but are not offered/do not accept an appointment It's a long, drawn out process and inevitably a lot of people will lose interest, or maybe gain employment elsewhere. It isn't a perfect system (and not half as meritocratic as State likes to claim), but I think the FSO corp's high retention rates can partially be attributed to the long hiring process filtering out everybody except the folks who REALLY want the job.
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Apr 19, 2012 04:06
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Eonwe posted:So, I've been studying for the FSO exam, and it really looks fairly straightforward. My understanding is that a very small percentage of the people who initially take the FSOT exam actually become officers. What process weeds candidates out so much? Is there just a very low percentage of people chosen for an oral exam? According to here and here, a bit under 50% of FSOT takers pass to the PNQ round, where enough applicants are eliminated to give a target number of FSOA takers, of whom 30-40% are expected to pass. Some others will attrit due to medical, security or suitability issues, and a not-insignificant number will have scores too low to merit a job offer. State has been trying to keep the number of FSOA passers reasonably close to projected vacancies, but always wants to keep at least a small buffer, and often has to guess what exactly funding and hiring authority will look like for the following year. In any case, the FSOT is the biggest filter, with the PNQs the next biggest obstacle. Once those applicants have been weeded out, State focuses on the most competitive candidates left. Suntory BOSS posted:and not half as meritocratic as State likes to claim Why do you think this? Because of the PNQ process?
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Apr 19, 2012 04:32
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Suntory BOSS posted:I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine a certain number of people fall out of the process at every step of the way. I still see people routinely resign because they hate the lifestyle. I never really understood this cause the job is really that cool and the pay is incredible, also you have to go through pretty much every hoop ever created in the history of hoop making in order to get your foot in the door. But some people after all that still didn't really comprehend that they wouldn't be spending their careers at foggy bottom.
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Apr 19, 2012 06:01
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Business of Ferrets posted:Why do you think this? Because of the PNQ process? The opinion of a retired ambassador (career FSO who went to school with my mom) is that the recruiting process is blind and truly merit based but that they look for the wrong merits.
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Apr 19, 2012 08:10
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Vilerat posted:I still see people routinely resign because they hate the lifestyle. I never really understood this cause the job is really that cool and the pay is incredible, also you have to go through pretty much every hoop ever created in the history of hoop making in order to get your foot in the door. But some people after all that still didn't really comprehend that they wouldn't be spending their careers at foggy bottom. I don't think it's as simple as that. Not realizing you won't be spending your career at Foggy Bottom is truly boneheaded, and I'm sure those people are out there. But there are plenty of people who simply don't know certain things about themselves and how they'll react until they get overseas. Such as, how do you truly feel about moving every 2-3 years? How do you truly feel about making friends at post, and then they leave 6-12 months into your tour? How do you truly feel about making friends at post quite close to your own departure date? How do you truly feel about being single overseas? How do you truly feel about moving your family around constantly? How does your spouse truly feel about potentially abandoning their own career? (Not at all that I am trying to answer one or more of the above questions myself, ahem.) I agree that there are people who get in and totally misconstrue what they're getting into. I would also argue that there is a substantial minority of people who get in and, despite the intense screening process, are simply not suited for the work. But there are a lot of intangibles at work, and I think that's where most of the "lifestyle" attrition comes in.
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Apr 19, 2012 18:37
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Can you guys explain the medical/security clearance thing? I'm curious how indepth it is. Do they basically just check to see if you have any major health problems, don't smoke weed/do any other drugs, don't have a criminal history, or any really bad outstanding debt? Or is this the 'they will know about that one thing in 2nd grade that you did and will haunt you forever' sort of background check like the CIA investigations?
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Apr 19, 2012 21:16
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:So is it inherently better to be an FSO as opposed to an expat? Or what are the pros and cons to each facet? I was an expat for a couple years, working in Africa (teaching at the university level, development projects and the like). I was pretty embroiled in the NGO/charity lifestyle/social circles, so I can only comment on the FSO lifestyle from the outside. But there is a HUGE dividing line between the development folks (and even in that grouping, between consultants and the grunts living out in some po-dunk village working on a water project or something) and the business people, usually with hefty salaries. The only reason the latter would be out there is because they are good enough/connected enough to have someone in the host country fly them out, and that means in turn the places they work in is pretty high up in the economic strata. So my buddies in Mercycore and the like would earn good money overseas, but nothing compared to the business dudes or people in the FSO (I think). I worked for the host country's government, so I earned even less, though significantly more than my local colleagues (which always made me feel bad). The impression I get is that the FSO officers tended to work in more removed levels than the some of the stuff I saw my fellow development expats doing and there seems to be more boundaries around what FSOs were allowed to do, or even stay, though like Business of Ferrets is right about the job security thing.
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Apr 19, 2012 22:08
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Medical is basically a physical. It takes a half a day, then a day off, then another half day, but 99% of that time is waiting; it's actually maybe only 30 minutes of physical. Your security clearance is more in depth. They will contact your family, neighbors, prior jobs, etc. Depending on your history it could take as little as 2 months (mine) or as long as 2 years (some unlucky bastards I know). It has all those things you mention, about debt, drugs, criminal history, etc.
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Apr 19, 2012 22:10
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Skandiaavity posted:Can't speak as a FSO yet.. I just got accepted into the program. Business of Ferrets is your man for that. I was speaking as a former traveller, and an occasional overseas job. This is true. EXPECTATIONS. It's the expat who tries to recreate their live abroad that tended to have the worst of it, and inevitably flee home (or just grow poisnoisly bitter about where they were living). It doesn't matter how long you're in a place, if you're not the type of person who is going go out and appreciate it.
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Apr 19, 2012 22:11
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Eonwe posted:Can you guys explain the medical/security clearance thing? I'm curious how indepth it is. Do they basically just check to see if you have any major health problems, don't smoke weed/do any other drugs, don't have a criminal history, or any really bad outstanding debt? Or is this the 'they will know about that one thing in 2nd grade that you did and will haunt you forever' sort of background check like the CIA investigations? It's a Top Secret clearance. Depending on the job, it will be TS/SCI. It's a bit more involved than a name check.
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Apr 20, 2012 01:08
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I cannot believe I agreed to all this travel 16 days before I leave post. Just say no, kids. When I write my book, it'll be called 30 Hours in Chisinau.
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Apr 23, 2012 21:18
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I'm not sure I'd be able to tell you a single thing about Moldova. It wasn't even where I expected it to be on the map.
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Apr 23, 2012 21:25
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