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The SARS Volta posted:I'm bumping this (although nearly not as much as I thought) because I've ran through some of the later episodes recently. I always understood the criticisms of the show post-Sorkin, but I also tacked it up a bit to the show being creatively bankrupt. And, hell, Jonathan Wells West Wing is still better than 95% of television programming ever produced. Season 5 was a mess from the start, no doubt about that. From what I've read, Sorkin had a plan for the kidnapping, but once he left NBC wasn't legally allowed to use any of his story outlines. Which resulted in the horrible start to the season. (I probably read this in this very thread, so sorry for the low info retread.) The rest of the season was incredibly inconsistent, with great episodes (Shutdown, The Supremes) mixed in with some of the worst stuff the show has ever produced (I sometimes feel like punching John Wells for making me watch Access). It took them a while to find their way post-Sorkin, which is somewhat understandable. At least seasons 6-7 recovered.
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Apr 19, 2012 13:50
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thrawn527 posted:(I sometimes feel like punching John Wells for making me watch Access). Access was something I thought would have served better as a DVD special or something. Trying to bill it as a regular episode just did not sit well with me either. I just converted my roommate to the fold and it's been a fun experience. He already doesn't like Mandy, so he's passed the first test. Now to see if he cries at the end of In Excelsis Deo. (If he doesn't, he is obviously a cylon.) He keeps wanting to read future episode synopses on Wikipedia or look through clips posted on Youtube, and preventing him from spoiling it for himself has become more tedious than trying to discipline a cat. I am going to have to start spritzing him with a spray bottle if he keeps this up.
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Apr 19, 2012 14:47
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king of no pants posted:Now to see if he cries at the end of In Excelsis Deo. (If he doesn't, he is obviously a cylon.) Holy poo poo I'm glad I'm not the only one. That ending just loving destroys me.
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Apr 19, 2012 15:30
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Access is the only episode I outright skip. I can't stand it.
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Apr 19, 2012 15:37
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I liked Access. Partially because C.J. is my favourite character. I really need to dig out my Season 3 DVDs, just so I can watch The Women of Qumar and Enemies Foreign And Domestic. C.J.'s a bad motherfucker who doesn't take no poo poo from nobody  e: Seriously, Enemies Foreign and Domestic has one of the best cold openings of the show. Right up there with Twenty Five, Mandatory Minimums, and Bad Moon Rising. TinTower fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Apr 19, 2012 |
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Apr 19, 2012 17:26
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I don't hate Access the way a lot of people do. It's not great, but compared to some other episodes in season 5, it's not that horrible. The only episode I sometimes skip is The Long Goodbye. I'm sure it's a great episode of some tv show, but it's certainly not an episode of The West Wing. Feels more like Allison Janney's emmy reel really. Hansen85 fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Apr 19, 2012 |
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Apr 19, 2012 17:28
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Hansen85 posted:I don't hate Access the way a lot of people do. It's not great, but compared to some other episodes in season 5, it's not that horrible. Yeah I skip that one and the 9/11 one when I do a run through.
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Apr 19, 2012 18:00
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I've been through it enough that I don't need to watch it in serial to enjoy an episode. I used to hate Access until I accepted that it was a brilliant experiment.
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Apr 19, 2012 18:58
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I have no idea how you all remember the allusory names of the episodes in a 7-season serial. I've got google open with "....... west wing episode" just so I can follow this conversation.
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Apr 19, 2012 19:20
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njbeachbum posted:Yeah I skip that one and the 9/11 one when I do a run through. What 9/11 episode? I certainly don't remember seeing a 40 minute episode of Aaron Sorkin awkwardly preaching to the audience about the relationship between Islam and the western world like they were children, and I've seen every episode. I think you must be mistaken. I don't get the Access hate either. I liked it, but I tend to always like it when a television show drastically breaks from their common narrative structure for an episode. The only ones I outright dislike, are all the ones having to do with the Zoey kidnapping. It's hard to feel dramatically invested when you know from the start she's gonna be ok; because otherwise they would have to spend an entire season dealing with her loss, and it would still feel cheap. My two personal favorite other than those commonly mentioned, are Two Bartletts and Night Five. Toby episodes were the best. Hobohemian fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Apr 19, 2012 |
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Apr 19, 2012 19:21
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Hobohemian posted:What 9/11 episode? I certainly don't remember seeing a 40 minute episode of Aaron Sorkin awkwardly preaching to the audience about the relationship between Islam and the western world like they were children, and I've seen every episode. I think you must be mistaken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_and_Ishmael It's.. different.
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Apr 19, 2012 19:26
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James R posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_and_Ishmael Hobohemian is painfully aware of that episode since he described it exactly. Hoops posted:I have no idea how you all remember the allusory names of the episodes in a 7-season serial. I've got google open with "....... west wing episode" just so I can follow this conversation. Welcome to TVIV
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Apr 19, 2012 19:35
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Hobohemian posted:Toby episodes were the best. This is a true fact. The opening of 17 People still gives me chills when I watch it. Toby, you magnificent balding bastard.
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Apr 19, 2012 19:48
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king of no pants posted:This is a true fact. The opening of 17 People still gives me chills when I watch it. Toby, you magnificent balding bastard. It's such a quiet episode compared to others, but I love 17 People. It's so powerful, and at times terrifying.
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Apr 19, 2012 20:07
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Hoops posted:I have no idea how you all remember the allusory names of the episodes in a 7-season serial. I've got google open with "....... west wing episode" just so I can follow this conversation. You can figure it out- which of these episodes is not like the others, features CJ- the faux documentary that centered around access to the press secretary. Issac and Ishmael broke the fourth wall, and didn't fit into any continuity to do a stand alone episode to raise money for the police and fireman's funds after 9/11. Hard to forget- again and exception. In Excelsis Deo is pretty cryptic. It won an Emmy but then spawned an internet debate/feud between the Sorkin and the writer. Its a bit of trivia, but pretty significant because Sorkin features it later as a storyline that highlights how much of a douche he can be and how much we as forum-goers absolutely eat that poo poo up.
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Apr 19, 2012 21:27
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Hobohemian posted:What 9/11 episode? I certainly don't remember seeing a 40 minute episode of Aaron Sorkin awkwardly preaching to the audience about the relationship between Islam and the western world like they were children, and I've seen every episode. I think you must be mistaken.
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Apr 19, 2012 21:36
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cams posted:In the episode, they are literally talking to children. The children are an obvious proxy for the audience. They're talking to you.
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Apr 19, 2012 21:54
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The most annoying part of Isaac and Ishmael for me was that they delayed the resolution to one of the greatest serial plotlines ever for an extra week to do a play about religious tolerance.
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Apr 19, 2012 21:57
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I didn't think the episode was bad, but when I watch through the series I pretty much never watch that one.
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Apr 19, 2012 22:00
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jeffersonlives posted:The most annoying part of Isaac and Ishmael for me was that they delayed the resolution to one of the greatest serial plotlines ever for an extra week to do a play about religious tolerance. Yeah tolerance isnt a virtue we should be promoting on television.
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Apr 19, 2012 22:00
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TheBigBad posted:Yeah tolerance isnt a virtue we should be promoting on television. Aaron Sorkin came out and said the script was a serious rush-job, it's not up to the standards of the rest of the series and it shows.
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Apr 19, 2012 22:15
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You leave the fact that no one watches Sesame Street out of this.
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Apr 19, 2012 22:49
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TheBigBad posted:In Excelsis Deo is pretty cryptic. It won an Emmy but then spawned an internet debate/feud between the Sorkin and the writer. Its a bit of trivia, but pretty significant because Sorkin features it later as a storyline that highlights how much of a douche he can be and how much we as forum-goers absolutely eat that poo poo up. Is this the thing where Sorkin took credit for the writing Emmy even though the guy that actually wrote it was telling the story of his dad or something? I guess I wasn't aware that that feud played out over the internet either.
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Apr 19, 2012 23:01
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Yup, there's a timeline with links to everything here (warning: there are major spoilers about the last season at the bottom of that post, for people who haven't watched that far yet). Sorkin's experiences with internet message boards during this led him to invent the LemonLyman.com subplot later in the show.
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Apr 19, 2012 23:04
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thrawn527 posted:It's such a quiet episode compared to others, but I love 17 People. It's so powerful, and at times terrifying. There's that one titular line of the episode that really highlights what was so great about Schiff's acting, and the cadence of his delivery. It's was something to the effect of "There were 17 people...you knew." that really showcased how much he added in emotional impact to what was already a great line. It worked extremely well for the comedic lines as well. There was that one exchange where Josh has just screwed up a press briefing that went like: "Have you fallen on your head?" "Listen-" "Have you fallen down,and hit your head on something hard?" That had me laughing more than some shows billed as "comedies".
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Apr 19, 2012 23:11
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TheBigBad posted:Yeah tolerance isnt a virtue we should be promoting on television. Tolerance is great. The West Wing did a lot of storylines that portrayed that well. An out of order rushjob episode hamfistedly making that point a couple weeks after 9/11 was not one of them; all everyone wanted to see was the aftermath of the MS storyline. I understand why they did it, but the last thing I wanted at that point of time was to have Josh Lyman vaguely talking about 9/11 and why they hate us.
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Apr 19, 2012 23:19
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I had to take summer school because 'government' class was so boring I slept through it; twice. I hate sentences with 'had' twice in a row, but if they had had "The West Wing" episodes to showcase various aspects of how the federal government works, I would have only failed that class once.
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Apr 19, 2012 23:39
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jeffersonlives posted:Tolerance is great. The West Wing did a lot of storylines that portrayed that well. An out of order rushjob episode hamfistedly making that point a couple weeks after 9/11 was not one of them; all everyone wanted to see was the aftermath of the MS storyline. No one gives a poo poo how you felt after 9/11 anymore. Its not worth holding a grudge over having to wait for the continuation of the cliffhanger a week later a decade later. Just skip over it and move on.
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Apr 19, 2012 23:48
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TheBigBad posted:No one gives a poo poo how you felt after 9/11 anymore. I'm not "holding a grudge." It's a terrible, terrible episode of television, no plot and afterschool special levels of education on complicated issues. I wouldn't expect anything else for something developed, written, and shot in a little over a week. It was Sorkin and NBC deciding that they just had to be the first people to get a RIPPED FROM THE HEADLINES 9/11 episode on television, and to do so they had to do a bad out of continuity episode pushing themes that were insultingly preachy then and sound ridiculous now. It also wasn't the resolution of the cliffhanger. There was no cliffhanger.
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Apr 20, 2012 00:10
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I was only 14 at the time, but based on what people still think these days about Islam, I don't think it's the craziest thing in the world to try and do a little educating. I'd imagine the cast and crew wanted to do something to help, and they had a unique position to do it from. But seriously, get over it. I watch it on my run throughs.
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Apr 20, 2012 03:00
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One of my friends was definitely of the "turn the entire Arabian peninsula into glass" persuasion and that West Wing changed his mind, so I'll give it that. We were in 10th grade.
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Apr 20, 2012 03:05
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thrawn527 posted:Season 5 was a mess from the start, no doubt about that. From what I've read, Sorkin had a plan for the kidnapping, but once he left NBC wasn't legally allowed to use any of his story outlines. Which resulted in the horrible start to the season. (I probably read this in this very thread, so sorry for the low info retread.) Is there an interview somewhere where Sorkin talks about what direction season 5 and the kidnapping plot would have taken if he didn't leave? Is it really common to not be able to use a writer's plots after they are fired? I thought everything they wrote for the show would be the property of the studio.
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Apr 20, 2012 12:48
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Bradley Whitford was on Parks and Rec last night playing Councillor Pillner and when the camera panned into his office for the first time, this appeared!
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Apr 20, 2012 13:35
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He also gave Leslie a speech about serving on City Council that included the line, "We play with live ammo here."
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Apr 20, 2012 14:15
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My fiancee pointed out that the first shot was a bit of a walk and talk, but they obviously couldn't pull it off for long, because most of the conversation was standing in front of his office.
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Apr 20, 2012 14:29
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FISHMANPET posted:My fiancee pointed out that the first shot was a bit of a walk and talk, but they obviously couldn't pull it off for long, because most of the conversation was standing in front of his office.
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Apr 20, 2012 14:42
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thrawn527 posted:It's such a quiet episode compared to others, but I love 17 People. It's so powerful, and at times terrifying. The beginning of that episode...my God. Toby sitting in his office bouncing that rubber ball against the wall--it has an oddly ominous sound. It gives me chills to watch him slowly figure it out. "Why does Hoynes think the President isn't going to run again? What's going on, Leo?" Hobohemian posted:"Have you fallen on your head?" "That was some great television, Josh, and I think four network news channels will bear me out on that!" And then Sam comes in a bit later and going "I gotta say--telling a reporter their question is stupid isn't like a page out of Dale Carnegie or anything." Slays me, every time. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Apr 20, 2012 |
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Apr 20, 2012 14:46
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Alter Ego posted:The beginning of that episode...my God. I've watched that sequence over and over again. I think it's 90% down to the soundtrack: Snuffy Walden's music and the inspired use of that relentless bouncing ball sound effect, even while Toby and Leo are just standing there looking at each other. Only behind that do you have the fact that Toby is so mind-bogglingly smart that he's the first person in the world to figure out independently that something is seriously wrong. Then it kicks off five full episodes of equally amazing drama and probably one of the best season finales ever filmed.
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Apr 20, 2012 14:57
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James R posted:Bradley Whitford was on Parks and Rec last night playing Councillor Pillner and when the camera panned into his office for the first time, this appeared! That's loving great. I may or may not have one of these up on my wall right now (and yes that is the tackiest and most nerdy thing I've ever bought). Introducing my girlfriend to the series now and I can't wait to get to 17 People after you guys talking about it so much. Was Richard Schiff in anything else decent? Toby was always my favourite, and from everything you read it's obvious he had a big affect on how the character pans out.
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Apr 20, 2012 15:42
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El Grillo posted:Was Richard Schiff in anything else decent? Toby was always my favourite, and from everything you read it's obvious he had a big affect on how the character pans out. He was in Deep Impact, which actually wasn't bad I've never understood the significance of the "It's 17 people. You knew" - it's played as something really important, but I'm just like "No poo poo, Sherlock?!".
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Apr 20, 2012 16:07
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