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NINbuntu 64 posted:Of course, then I see every other Kickstarter from small, inexperienced indies and I just want to weep. So especially to dude with derivative 2d metroidvania, remember that successful kickstarters really need to have compelling products attached to them. Your game either needs to be far enough along to completely sell itself, or your early prototype footage needs to be compellingly unique from everything else on the market. ... and I'm somewhat skeptical about how viable they will remain. We're already seeing finders turn on funded projects, and if you throw in a few failed projects, the money is going to dry up. It'll still be there for truly jaw-dropping footage, but not sure about anything less. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Apr 20, 2012 |
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GetWellGamers posted:Relocate for an internship? Unless you're super well-off already, that's an insane idea. I am only looking for internships in marketing. Relocation actually doesn't matter to me at all. I have been saving up to pay for it, because I thought I would have to. The problem I found when looking for most jobs in the video game industry is that they require previous experience. I am looking for an internship to get the experience and start in the industry. If I am unable to find a marketing internship at a video game studio, are there any other avenues to get experience to eventually work in the industry? For example, does marketing work for any company weigh in as heavily as if it was for the video game industry? Would doing marketing for an indie developer project be seen as valid work experience? How could I get involved with a project like that? mutata posted:I've seen paid internship positions from Disney Interactive, SOE, Microsoft Games, various EA studios, SCEA, Blizzard, Activision, Zynga, Firaxis, Insomniac, Riot, Lucasarts, Treyarch, and 343 Industries. I know others offer them too on an as-needed basis. They're essentially temp jobs, but a lot of places like SOE and Disney Interactive offer them as part of a specific internship program and assign mentors and all that. Until recently, actually, Microsoft Games' internships could've even been legally unpaid as interns just worked on a mentored student project (not actual dev) on-site, but they still got paid $30/hour for it. I applied to several of those companies. The others that I have not applied to are only looking for technical positions (animators, programmers, artists, etc.) I am not very skilled at those types of positions and am instead looking for a marketing position. Are there any similar opportunities I should look for? Learning everyday fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 20, 2012 |
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Apr 20, 2012 04:01
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Chainclaw posted:I think the fallout from Star Command's Kickstarter is a pretty good example: Who really cares how they spend their money as long as they make good on delivering a decent product? Time will tell on Star Command. But they could have spent all their money on hookers and blow for all I care as long as the product I bought is reasonably good.
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Apr 20, 2012 05:48
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Shalinor posted:So especially to dude with derivative 2d metroidvania, remember that successful kickstarters really need to have compelling products attached to them. Your game either needs to be far enough along to completely sell itself, or your early prototype footage needs to be compellingly unique from everything else on the market. Well, the plan is to have the game about half done by the time I fire up a kickstarter. Since most of the development time is going to be level design and asset creation, I should be able to show small sections of the game in something very close to their final form. I also have some very good musical talent interested in the project, so I'm pretty confident we'll be able to knock out a pretty awesome pitch video. It's just more getting over the hurdle of trying to sell something that doesn't really have much in the way of a hook. Unless I'm overthinking it and having a good project will be enough. Shalinor posted:... and I'm somewhat skeptical about how viable they will remain. We're already seeing finders turn on funded projects, and if you throw in a few failed projects, the money is going to dry up. It'll still be there for truly jaw-dropping footage, but not sure about anything less. I agree with Category Fun, that the bubble will rise, burst and then it'll start again but from a wiser position. I'd imagine that if Kickstarter was to be rebuilt they'd have more of a quality control process, so the consumers wouldn't get flooded with lovely-looking projects. It's just far too good of an idea to go to waste. Letting consumers vote for and fund projects that they're interested is good for EVERYONE involved, I think it's just really early at the moment and we're still working out the kinks.
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Apr 20, 2012 07:52
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Shalinor posted:... and I'm somewhat skeptical about how viable they will remain. We're already seeing finders turn on funded projects, and if you throw in a few failed projects, the money is going to dry up. It'll still be there for truly jaw-dropping footage, but not sure about anything less. I feel like that's probably the way it should be, to be honest. As has been discussed to death in the various iterations of this thread, ideas are worth nothing, execution is everything. I don't think people SHOULD get funding for "it would be totally cool if we could..." pitches, I think it should go to "we had an awesome idea, and here's what we've done with it so far" and some tangible completed work. Even your video (which you mentioned you're redoing) has more than a lot of these "PLAYERS WILL DECIDE WHAT HAPPENS 100%" bullshit Kickstarters people are doing with no media, nothing but a (poorly written) game design doc with more promises than Peter Molyneux. Those people should not get money for that sort of poo poo, it reinforces the false idea that you should get paid just for having an idea, and that you don't have to do hard work on your own before you earn that money.
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Apr 20, 2012 10:43
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There are a fair number of people trying to secure funding via Kickstarter without having any credibility, but already would-be backers are learning to identify and avoid them. One benefit of the fact that the money isn't collected until the goal is reached is that it protects fools and their money from being parted, at least for a rather democratic definition of "fool."
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Apr 20, 2012 13:36
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I'm literally salivating in anticipation of the amount of litigation that is going to arise from kickstarted games in the next couple of years. Kickstarter advice and counsel is my fastest growing section of practice right now. I would seriously advise that if you are planning to finance your game through Kickstarter in significant dollar amounts (100K or more) you ought to hire an attorney to counsel you on possible risks, and ways to improve your campaign. Just sayin.
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Apr 20, 2012 13:44
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Diplomaticus posted:I'm literally salivating in anticipation of the amount of litigation that is going to arise from kickstarted games in the next couple of years. Isn't this good advice for any financing in that range, though? Hell, not just a lawyer, but a good tax accountant/consultant as well.
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Apr 20, 2012 13:47
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Yes, but people think that Kickstarter campaigns don't need these things for some reason.
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Apr 20, 2012 14:02
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Diplomaticus posted:Yes, but people think that Kickstarter campaigns don't need these things for some reason. I just recently finished my Master's Degree and for it a Business Plan that I have no intention of actually using. In it I used Kickstarter as part of my Marketing Plan. Essentially my goal was to make it a self-funded marketing campaign. I can't be the first person in the Games Industry to think of this. Any thoughts on that?
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Apr 20, 2012 14:50
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It's not a bad idea, but it can't carry you the entire way. You still need to do the ground work with the media though, both to get them to actually pick up and cover your campaign (which they are becoming less and less interested in doing in the short term) and to pitch the actual game itself if you plan on selling it commercially.
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Apr 20, 2012 14:54
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Diplomaticus posted:You still need to do the ground work with the media though, both to get them to actually pick up and cover your campaign (which they are becoming less and less interested in doing in the short term) We'll have a better video and updated gameplay footage by next week, and I figure we've got one more solid shot at getting coverage before we're out of time.
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Apr 20, 2012 15:24
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NINbuntu 64 posted:Of course, then I see every other Kickstarter from small, inexperienced indies and I just want to weep. See, this is why I'm trying to get my first release or two done in my spare time while I continue to work my day job. I've been a developer (non-gaming) for almost thirty years, but I don't have any track record to speak of in gaming. Who in their right mind would fund a Kickstarter project if I started one right now? In six months or so, once I've done two or three releases and (hopefully) demonstrated that I know what I'm doing, Kickstarter might be a good avenue to fund something more ambitious (presuming I can't build enough equity to do the dev out of pocket by then). We'll see. It's amazing to me how much the infrastructure has changed. Back when I was a kid banging out character graphics platform games on my Atari 400 (on that godforsaken chiclet keyboard), I was lucky if I could share them with more than three or four people. Now anybody with 10 x  can drop an iOS game and have thousands of eyeballs on it instantly. Crazy.
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Apr 20, 2012 15:40
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Shalinor posted:Not to hijack the conversation, but, I'd love any feedback anyone could offer on that right there for ours: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/954522547/gravitaz - via PM, email, whatever, any thoughts that anyone has are welcome. Here is what I've got: 1. There isn't a lot of in game footage and it isn't terribly interesting to watch. I don't get much of an impression of speed, and the bit at 20 seconds kind of looks like you glitched out of the environment. People aren't going to process what pre-alpha assets might mean, and the visuals aren't very impressive for a desktop title. You say the engine is complete, but the lighting looks super flat and there are no particles. Your concept art is cool, but I don't see it in the in game footage. 2. Admittedly this is superficial, but the live action parts gave me a distinct 80s home movie impression. 3. You mentioned people calling it out as being a wipeout clone, though it reminded me more of Extreme-G. I didn't get any impression of what is substantially different about your game (gameplay wise) from the video or skimming the text. 4. My immediate question is does it support multiplayer? You don't mention it so I'm assuming not.
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Apr 20, 2012 18:50
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I figure it's just a bad time for Shitfarter right now. Press is shying away from it due to the floods of emails they get now after Doublefine and Wasteland got their free money. The problem is that you absolutely need press coverage to hit anything over a small amount, and that's just not going to happen right now unless you're an old white guy that made someone's favorite childhood game. They accidentally killed it for everyone else, at least for now. There's nothing you can do about this if the press is just too swamped to cover your SF. When things are done imploding, I think I'd like to make one. But my idea is to mostly use it as a publicity thing. Funds will go towards making a game that is completely free (no IAP), with a concept that would be too weird to sell, anyway.
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Apr 20, 2012 19:56
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I might be wrong about this, but it seems that in the long term Kickstarter's best niche might be more like that of a "classical" publishing deal. Instead of pitching crazy new ideas or rough prototypes that need to be developed from scratch, the successful projects will be those that are already mostly-finished and just use Kickstarter for a final out-the-door polish phase and push. For the "average" Kickstarter user who isn't already famous, it seems like that is the direction things are headed.
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Apr 20, 2012 20:05
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Kepa posted:Shitfarter Really? Are we really doing this?
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Apr 20, 2012 20:09
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mutata posted:Really? Are we really doing this? Yeah this is pretty stupid and childish. MORE LIKE GAYLO I think like anything in the world kickstarters are usually successful if you are offering to make something people want to buy. I'm guessing most people aren't interested in a super pretentious iphone stealth "game" with no actual apparent gameplay. If you're going for grassroots funding you need grassroots marketing, which sites *will* pick up and cover over time. People want a shadowrun game, they want a wasteland game, they want that goofy watch, etc. and they're willing to tell their friends about it and post on internet forums and get people psyched about it. I'll be entirely honest, Shalinor, I think one of the big issues that you guys are having is that you're not in a genre (sci-fi action racing) with a huge amount of unmet demand or a passionate fanbase. So it's going to be really, really hard to get the kind of attention you want. I mean, you have way more to show than most of the successful kickstarters, it's just that I don't know that it's unique or intriguing enough to get people to put money up front.
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Apr 20, 2012 20:26
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Kepa posted:The problem is that you absolutely need press coverage to hit anything over a small amount, and that's just not going to happen right now unless you're an old white guy that made someone's favorite childhood game. They accidentally killed it for everyone else, at least for now. Having significant cachet is obviously important, so I agree with the first sentence. Tim Schafer did well largely because he's Tim drat Schafer, as many have pointed out. Saying that the people like him "killed it" doesn't make sense, though. Yeah, people are saying that Kickstarter poo poo is getting overexposed, but it went from being relatively unknown to being on everyone's lips. If another person like Tim Schafer comes along with a great pitch and a track record that demonstrates that they probably won't run off with the money, then I think they'll do great as well. Like, if Will Wright did a Return to Bungeling Bay Kickstarter, people would be all over it. They wouldn't say, "Look at this jerk jumping on the bandwagon. I'm burned out on Kickstarters, pffft." The press is going to cover projects that look interesting, and especially projects that have big names attached. The games they won't bother to talk about are games that they wouldn't have talked about anyway, Kickstarter or not. And even those games still stand a better chance of getting some cash than those who put a DONATE button on their site, assuming they have some work to show and know how to pitch a game. What I'm saying with too many words is that, as you say, to really knock it out of the park like Double Fine, you have to have "made someone's favorite childhood game." That was true when Schafer did it, and it's equally true now, and "Shitfarter" burnout has little to do with it. And non-celebrities will still do great things, but they'll have to have reasonable goals and know how to promote themselves.
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Apr 20, 2012 20:28
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djkillingspree posted:I'll be entirely honest, Shalinor, I think one of the big issues that you guys are having is that you're not in a genre (sci-fi action racing) with a huge amount of unmet demand or a passionate fanbase. So it's going to be really, really hard to get the kind of attention you want. I mean, you have way more to show than most of the successful kickstarters, it's just that I don't know that it's unique or intriguing enough to get people to put money up front. ... now this same game, done... say... 3 months ago? I think it might have still had a better shot. It's just that when you add the lack of wow-effect to the general exhaustion with Kickstarter, things go a bit pear shaped. Frankly though? Even if it fails, that is useful. It puts a pretty solid cap on any further discussion of blowing time toward this project. "Look, we tried it, the fan interest wasn't there" and we move on. Kickstarter will remain quite useful even if only for that. It isn't a perfect test, but barring a few genres or game types that just don't show until they're done, Kickstarters do a decent job of telling you how the press is going to respond to the resultant game. If they hate it, and fan response is minimal? You're going to hit a similar wall when it comes time to market the finished game. We even come out as a (slightly) better-known studio, with slightly better odds of media coverage for our next game. It'll kind of burn me to have blown a month to come to that conclusion, but that's better than blowing a whole year. That's game development - you have to take some risks, and many won't play out. EDIT: VV Yep, you could. I don't think anyone's lamenting it, though - we're just discussing where the market is right now. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Apr 20, 2012 |
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Apr 20, 2012 20:28
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Shalinor posted:... now this same game, done... say... 3 months ago? I think it might have still had a better shot. It's just that when you add the lack of wow-effect to the general exhaustion with Kickstarter, things go a bit pear shaped. Yeah, but couldn't you say the same thing about any bubble? I guess I just mean that there's no point in lamenting the missed timing. And I guess Kickstarter isn't exactly a popping bubble, just more of a balloon slowly deflating.
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Apr 20, 2012 20:33
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Are we really doing this: Yes, every time I have to type out the word.Wikipedia Brown posted:Having significant cachet is obviously important, so I agree with the first sentence. Tim Schafer did well largely because he's Tim drat Schafer, as many have pointed out. I think that's a bad counter-example. I meant "killed it" for people that aren't Tim Schafer, Will Wright, any other name that's been making games for over two decades. I wonder if Faster Than Light would have been anywhere nearly as successful as they were, if they tried to raise their funds now. Maybe? But I think it would be unlikely. Even if they were in an unmet genre with a passionate fanbase, how is that fanbase going to really know about it if the press are digging their heels into the ground due to overexposure? Edit: Asked on Twitter and it looks like Penny Arcade Report and Kotaku will still cover SF's if they're interesting to them. Jason Schreier, Kotaku, said, "Yeah, I am. But only the ones that seem interesting. (aka: the ones that don't have a pitch that goes beyond 'WE WANT MONEY'." Ben Kuchera, PAR, followed, "That's the problem: these developers consider it 'covering their Kickstarter.' That's a huge red flag. The best pitches are when they love their game, and I want to cover their game, which happens to have a KS." Kepa fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Apr 20, 2012 |
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Apr 20, 2012 20:43
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I got a phone interview for a temporary associate software engineer position at NetherRealm on Tuesday! I got high hopes for finally getting my foot in the door of the industry!
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Apr 20, 2012 21:18
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Kepa posted:Are we really doing this: Yes, every time I have to type out the word. FTL is almost a finished game, so the risk of them not pulling through is minimized. You could play it using Onlive during the indie awards. People played it, liked it and basically used Kickstarter as a way of pre-ordering the game. For the non-celebrities, it looks like a killer tech demo is required. Grim Dawn is almost half way there to the Kickstarter goal even though Crate is literally two people working without pay - the reaction isn't super crazy but there might be enough Titan Quest fans to pull it through for them. The Banner Saga is basically a chess-RPG with incredibly attractive art direction - the art is actually the main draw for a lot of backers. The core of those games are already made and the work required is scaling up the content. Which might be tough because of hiring risks, but I hope that both of these teams find the right people to help flesh out their game. Backing a Kickstarter is already a gamble and it's up to the project starters to make their project look credible so that the risk is worth it.
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Apr 20, 2012 21:36
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Kepa posted:I think that's a bad counter-example. I meant "killed it" for people that aren't Tim Schafer, Will Wright, any other name that's been making games for over two decades. Banner Saga is doing quite well. They don't have any big names attached. The guys come from well known studios, but the individuals aren't people that anybody has ever heard of and their new studio has no track record. So it seems like people who have something interesting to show and the ability to say "I am a professional game developer, and I have shipped games before" can succeed as well. One lesson Banner Saga might teach is that you really need a good concept artist on staff to nail your kick-starter. 
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Apr 20, 2012 21:37
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Running, Dancing: Yeah, I was wrong on the press turning against it to the extent that I thought. Just need to have something to show, to make it really stand out. Not much different than getting noticed enough to warrant press coverage, period. Republique will probably get to 100k. If their goal wasn't so high, they would have been fine.
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Apr 20, 2012 21:49
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DancingMachine posted:Banner Saga is doing quite well. They don't have any big names attached. The guys come from well known studios, but the individuals aren't people that anybody has ever heard of and their new studio has no track record. Banner Saga also got in before the flood but after DoubleFine. The sweet spot for getting coverage from everyone.
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Apr 20, 2012 22:34
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nessin posted:Banner Saga also got in before the flood but after DoubleFine. The sweet spot for getting coverage from everyone. Double Fine Adventure - 3.3 mil Wasteland 2 - 2.9 million Shadow Run Returns - 1.3 mil Leisure Suit Larry - $441,000 (and still not to its goal) ... likely, at least in part due to increasing media resistance to running stories about Kickstarters. There's an especially big drop between Double Fine Adventure and Leisure Suit Larry, which suggests a big component of this is "first in the genre" / how "dead" the genre actually is. EDIT: VV Entirely possible, but you could say the same of Wasteland 2. It's also based on a very old game that few remember. There's the argument that "oh well other RPGs like Fallout have since come out..." - but that same argument works for Larry. "Oh, but then all the great adventure games started coming out...". Shalinor fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Apr 21, 2012 |
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Apr 21, 2012 01:18
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Shalinor posted:You're even seeing tapering in the big-name attempts: In the case of Leisure Suit Larry, could it not be disinterest in the franchise itself, especially given that it's a remake and not a new game? I don't know if I'm unique but my main impression of Leisure Suit Larry comes from the more modern games, which were quite awful. I'm only aware of the old games, I never played them and don't even know anyone who did and really loves them the way they might love Grim Fandango or Full Throttle(not to mention Schafer's other games). That's not to say I don't think this tapering phenomenon is real, though.
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Apr 21, 2012 01:26
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Shalinor posted:You're even seeing tapering in the big-name attempts: I don't know, I think a lot of that is pretty explainable to the actual individual products and not necessarily explainable as caused chronologically. For example, Double Fine was surpassed bigtime by this goofy watch (it actually looks pretty cool). This article lists the past #1 projects, and I think it represents pretty solid growth. Here's what I'd explain in these cases: Double Fine (and Tim Schaefer) is a huge darling of gaming media particularly, and so got a massive amount of coverage. He also made a lot of games that people like and runs a pretty successful studio, so people think they'll actually get something cool from it. Wasteland got a lot because it had two really well known names behind it (Brian Fargo and Obsidian, where all the best game designers come from obviously) and had some nostalgia cachet. Note that they raised a ton of additional money after they announced that Avellone would come on at 1.5 million I think it was? Anyways, again, people trust they'll get something rad. Shadowrun has a smaller fanbase than Obsidian, who are more oldschool and grumpy, and the game developer is much less well known than the other guys. Still, they raised over a million bucks off of a P&P RPG franchise that hasn't really had a decent incarnation for almost 20 years. Not bad. LSL is a followup to a game that is in a dead genre, from a developer that nobody cares about anymore. Granted, you can say "But Double Fine Adventure is also in that genre" and I think the response there is "yeah but people don't know what they're getting there yet". I think some people are going to be super bummed if DFA turns out to ACTUALLY be an oldschool adventure game and not something like Psychonauts with, you know, gameplay. EDIT: Again, I think this is actually a case of the market working really well with Kickstarter. People are giving money to people with either proven track records, REALLY awesome pitches, or both. Also projects that set stupidly high funding requirements tend to fail (aka that stealth non-game). That's really, really good evidence that the system works!
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Apr 21, 2012 03:55
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djkillingspree posted:EDIT: Again, I think this is actually a case of the market working really well with Kickstarter. People are giving money to people with either proven track records, REALLY awesome pitches, or both. Also projects that set stupidly high funding requirements tend to fail (aka that stealth non-game). That's really, really good evidence that the system works! I think that is the real thing going on. Sure the huge media attention may have drummed up DoubleFine and a couple others, but ultimately it's getting the word out and having a pitch people will go for. Hell, just look at that Pebble Watch (drat them for bluetooth only!) kickstarter. Granted it isn't a video game but it proves a solid pitch and/or a product the consumer wants can still get money through Kickstarter.
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Apr 21, 2012 04:08
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It's essentially bypassing the typical publisher's practice of market research by directly asking the market for funding. There are two reasons for a game pitch to fail in the old model: either expectations of mismanagement, or expectation of a small market. Kickstarters deliver funding to projects for which the estimations of demand were too low, but it doesn't allow anything else that a publisher wouldn't.
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Apr 21, 2012 04:48
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I think the biggest reason people are donating to Schaefer over LSL is because Schafer has a track history of making really awesome games from a creative standpoint, no matter what the gameplay tends to be. If it's an old-school adventure game with terrible design, that kind of game can at least hold itself on the weight of its story even if the puzzles involve microwaving hamsters. Schafer also has the added advantage of being relevant through every generation of people who consume video games, and has kept a legacy throughout that.
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Apr 21, 2012 05:18
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I'm not sure if I asked this (and if I did it was probably 50 pages ago) but, does the Unity engine allow you to create rotating and spinning platforms? Like the ones in Super Mario Sunshine?Shalinor posted:Honesty is fine, fantastic even. I agree. Our single biggest problem is just... the game. It's Dennis's dream project, and it'll be fun, but it isn't a genre redefining thing, or even a thing with a big geeky fanbase - it's a niche thing, with niche fans, who mostly like the elephants already in the niche. So all we can do is work with what we've got to try and overcome that. If it's any consolation, Shalinor, I'm a big fan of futuristic racing games, and I appreciate any opportunities to have more of them. Keep fighting the good fight!
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Apr 21, 2012 07:01
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Mr Interweb posted:I'm not sure if I asked this (and if I did it was probably 50 pages ago) but, does the Unity engine allow you to create rotating and spinning platforms? Like the ones in Super Mario Sunshine? Yes. There isn't a whole lot you can't do in the Unity engine unless you're talking about really low-level stuff. Rotating and spinning platforms is right up it's alley.
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Apr 21, 2012 14:48
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Mega Shark posted:Yes. There isn't a whole lot you can't do in the Unity engine unless you're talking about really low-level stuff. Rotating and spinning platforms is right up it's alley. You can get kinda low-level with Unity Pro, actually. poo poo's rad. http://unity3d.com/support/documentation/ScriptReference/Graphics.html http://unity3d.com/support/documentation/ScriptReference/GL.html Edit: I'm going to suck Unity's dick until a Pro license and the full iOS dev license comes out. NINbuntu 64 fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 21, 2012 |
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Apr 21, 2012 14:52
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NINbuntu 64 posted:You can get kinda low-level with Unity Pro, actually. poo poo's rad. That is not low-level. I love Unity, I'm not bashing it.
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Apr 21, 2012 15:01
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Mega Shark posted:That is not low-level. I love Unity, I'm not bashing it. Yeah, I completely misinterpreted just about every word in your post. It's been a long couple weeks. A long couple weeks of developing in Unity, that is! Which is like a couple months in normal dev time! I'm getting so many things done! Send help because I'm slowly losing my mind and haven't taken a break in three weeks now and I've been working through weekends and evenings and usually all night!
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Apr 21, 2012 15:18
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NINbuntu 64 posted:Yeah, I completely misinterpreted just about every word in your post. It's been a long couple weeks. It's a good feeling moving to Unity from an old, non-existent tool chain.
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Apr 21, 2012 15:31
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Waterbed posted:I think the biggest reason people are donating to Schaefer over LSL is because Schafer has a track history of making really awesome games from a creative standpoint, no matter what the gameplay tends to be. If it's an old-school adventure game with terrible design, that kind of game can at least hold itself on the weight of its story even if the puzzles involve microwaving hamsters. Speaking as someone who donated to the DFA kickstarter, part of it was Tim's very funny pitch video, part of it was that I really, really loved the Monkey Island games and Day of the Tentacle back in the day, and the last (and almost the most important) part was the fact that they were also offering a documentary of how the game was going to be developed, which is a huge bonus because, hey, Tim Schafer is funny, and I've always wanted to see how games development happens (it's probably a lot less exciting in general than people outside the industry, like me, imagine it to be). AG3 fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Apr 21, 2012 |
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Apr 21, 2012 16:04
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