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I wonder if most of the areas where a panel requires a full upgrade to code are places where knob and tube were common at some point? I have no idea what the rule is here in Arizona, but there is precious little construction around here that is even old enough to have that.
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Apr 20, 2012 04:09
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IOwnCalculus posted:I wonder if most of the areas where a panel requires a full upgrade to code are places where knob and tube were common at some point? I have no idea what the rule is here in Arizona, but there is precious little construction around here that is even old enough to have that. K&T is treated similarly- so long as it was installed legally under the code when the house was built, you're OK. But if you touch it in any substantial way, you're required to bring everything from that point forward up to modern code, including grounds, etc. If you still have an old fuse panel, you can use that to feed the new circuit from an existing fuse. But if you replace the entire panel... you've got to redo power for the entire house. I'm 99% sure every state/territory in the US has adopted NEC2005 or later as the official electrical code, so this is going to be true for everywhere in the US. Actual enforcement is going to vary considerably, though. grover fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Apr 22, 2012 |
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Apr 20, 2012 15:06
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grover posted:when the new code came out in 2011 requiring AFCI receptacles in every room of your 2008 house, you don't have to go back and retrofit. But if you put in a new circuit, it needs to be AFCI. Not quite every room... They're required pretty much everywhere that GFCIs aren't required and vice versa, eg. AFCIs aren't required in bathrooms, kitchens, etc. Does anyone know if AFCIs have the same problem that GFCIs do with older major appliance motors tripping them with false positives?
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Apr 20, 2012 20:15
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kid sinister posted:Not quite every room... They're required pretty much everywhere that GFCIs aren't required and vice versa, eg. AFCIs aren't required in bathrooms, kitchens, etc. Yes, AFCIs still give false trips when old fridges and stuff click on. Also, some space heaters apparently have arcing line-voltage thermostats that trip them. Irons, blenders, and electric skillets have also been reported as problems. I did about 40 service upgrades in The Projects, including AFCIs, and we get the calls for "warranty repairs" all the time.
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Apr 20, 2012 21:41
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Yes, AFCIs still give false trips when old fridges and stuff click on. Also, some space heaters apparently have arcing line-voltage thermostats that trip them. Irons, blenders, and electric skillets have also been reported as problems. I do almost no residential work but I think vaccums are the biggest culprit.
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Apr 20, 2012 21:46
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Yes, AFCIs still give false trips when old fridges and stuff click on. Also, some space heaters apparently have arcing line-voltage thermostats that trip them. Irons, blenders, and electric skillets have also been reported as problems. How often are the AFCIs defective or failed? Do they fail as quickly as GFCIs do? grover fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 20, 2012 |
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Apr 20, 2012 21:53
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:I do almost no residential work but I think vaccums are the biggest culprit. This was in the projects. All linoleum flooring. And, judging by the state of cleanliness of the places when we did the upgrades, I'm not sure "vacuum cleaner" would ever be a test case there.
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Apr 20, 2012 21:53
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Are afci avaliable in outlets or strictly breakers? A quick search online only showed gfci outlets
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Apr 20, 2012 22:27
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tater_salad posted:Are afci avaliable in outlets or strictly breakers? Nope, not yet. A couple patents have been filed, so companies are working on it. Even if they do become available, they won't be too common. The 2011 book states that outlet-based AFCIs can only be used in very specific situations where the first outlet box on a branch circuit must be metal and the cabling up to that box must be enclosed by metal all the way back to the load center. That cabling isn't common at all in residential work.
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Apr 20, 2012 23:20
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OK, I saw talk of receptacles and wasn't sure if afci was only breaker or was also an avaliable outlet type
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Apr 21, 2012 00:16
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What's the reasoning behind metal conduit to the afci outlet? I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but I'm struggling to figure it out.
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Apr 21, 2012 02:04
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I'll throw in that I live in a 2008 home that was built with AFCI on most circuits. They seem only to have avoided major appliances and otherwise GFCI protected circuits when putting the AFCI breakers in. I will actually report being very pleased with them. I have never ever had a false-trip due to anything. We have everything from 80000 computers to space heaters, toasters, refrigerators, all electric appliances (no gas here), electric toaster oven, 12amp electric vacuum cleaner..you name it. Not one of these has ever caused a trip of the AFCI. Now maybe this is thanks to the home being new, the electrician being very skilled, and despite being out of the city and having no electrical inspection I personally inspected and followed up very closely on the quality of the electrical work. Add also to the situation how well I am pleased with the two times they did trip legitimately. I have twice run over the cord to my electric lawn mower with that electric lawn mower while its metal handle was in my hand. Despite this I never even felt a simple shock or tingle. The AFCI tripped so quick it just sounded like the second I hit the cord the mower turned off. I was impressed. And then ticked off I ruined my cord. There has only been one time I've had an AFCI here trip without specific homeowner or wiring fault cause. It was during a violent lightning storm. During one big, not direct but very nearby hit of lightning one of the AFCIs decided it was time to trip. It reset without complaint. Induction awesomeness? Anyhow, that's my mini-review of a modern, properly done AFCI home. It has provided us zero inconvenience and demonstrated its protective ability when I do dumb stuff like run over cords in the yard.
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Apr 21, 2012 04:28
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With it being spring I went to turn on the AC and low and behold it did not work. I assumed I had somehow angered the home owner spirits, but I think I'm fairly fortunate. What I'm assuming are the thermostat wires were separated from the A/C unit itself due to my over-zealous dog and his desire to get into everything. On the downside, the wiring is just generally exposed even if I reconnect them, so I have a couple questions: Coming from the side of the house are two thin wires, one white, one black. The AC unit itself has three wires, red, white, and green. I'm assuming the white is neutral and the red/black are live, with the green being ground. Is there any way to confirm the wires are correct? Assuming they are correct, then how do I reconnect them so my wife will not stab me in a heat induced rage? Secondly, the wiring itself is just sort of out there. They were connected through wire nuts and just kind of hanging out. Is there anything I can do about this? There's a solid conduit from the AC unit to the house which I assume has the main power line, so I don't want to open it or anything, but I don't think just wrapping the wires around it is a good idea. Thanks!
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Apr 21, 2012 21:08
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Got clarification from the city regarding a new panel Only the panel is required to meet modern code; existing wiring can remain in place (assuming it was to code when installed). It was mentioned though that it does mean AFCI breakers have to be used for bedrooms. I think despite this I'm going to re-do all the wiring in the house anyway, it's a fairly small house, shouldn't be too hard. This site is a good cheat sheet for common code requirements http://www.buildmyowncabin.com/electrical/wiring-code.html
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Apr 21, 2012 22:46
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jackyl posted:What's the reasoning behind metal conduit to the afci outlet? I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but I'm struggling to figure it out. Good grounding and unlikeliness of that one run of wiring being damaged or modified in the future I suppose. Mulloy posted:With it being spring I went to turn on the AC and low and behold it did not work. I assumed I had somehow angered the home owner spirits, but I think I'm fairly fortunate. What I'm assuming are the thermostat wires were separated from the A/C unit itself due to my over-zealous dog and his desire to get into everything. On the downside, the wiring is just generally exposed even if I reconnect them, so I have a couple questions: Yep, those wires separated from the conduit are the thermostat wires. Inside that cable are 2 little wires, and they connect to the commutator, a relay of sorts. Residential AC condensers use only 220V. The weird thing about 220V motors is that they only have 2 "hots" going to them. That works without a dedicated neutral because those 2 hots are out of phase with it each other. Remember the sine wave graph depiction of AC power in high school? Well, those 2 hots are mirror images of each other on that graph. When one hot phase is peaking, the other phase is bottoming out. In other words, whenever one phase is positive, the other is negative and vice versa. Either phase acts as the "neutral" of the other phase, so no dedicated neutral is required. I'm confused about the wire colors and sizes and which goes where. Any chance of a picture? Get one of where the conduit leaves the house too. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Apr 21, 2012 |
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Apr 21, 2012 23:15
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kid sinister posted:Good grounding and unlikeliness of that one run of wiring being damaged or modified in the future I suppose. Thanks for the information. I can get a picture when I get home from work in a couple hours. Edit: Said wires. Not sure if you need a picture of something else. The red/white/green go into the fan unit and the black/white lead towards the house. 
Mulloy fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Apr 22, 2012 |
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Apr 21, 2012 23:19
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If they're using wire nuts like that it would seem to me that there are not multiple conductors within. At my house (a typical texas heat pump ac about 4 years old) the thermostat connects to the relays up in the attic, and then a control circuit of sorts runs to the unit outside. It seems like this is his configuration. If those wires are control at line voltage that seems like a horrible way for them to have run them, exposed like that, because of exactly what we're seeing here...they failed, possibly dangerously.
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Apr 22, 2012 17:08
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Mulloy posted:Thanks for the information. I can get a picture when I get home from work in a couple hours. grover fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Apr 22, 2012 |
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Apr 22, 2012 17:11
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grover posted:See if you can trace them out to the terminal boards on the condenser and the air handler. Condensers don't have terminal boards really, they're simple enough to not need any advanced circuitry. All the circuit boards are in the furnace and thermostat. All condensers have besides the ground are 2-phase 240V hooked up to a double relay called the contactor, and those 2 low voltage wires hook up to the contactor to turn it off and on. Still, wire nuts are not weatherproof at all and the rain would have got them even if your dog hadn't. First thing's first. That box on the side of your house is called the "quick disconnect". Open that box's panel and pull out the big black disconnect inside to shut off the circuit. Next, follow that conduit down to where it enters the condenser and take the side panel off it. It should take a 3/8" socket and ratchet. We need 2 pictures. Take one of the inside of the side panel on the condenser. Next picture: those green, white and red wires should be coming out of the condenser near to where the power conduit enters, so take a picture of where they come out on the condenser too. edit: If you're going to be dogproofing your condenser, you might want to go pick up some new 2-conductor thermostat wire: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202206424/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=Thermostat+Wire&storeId=10051 Get some wire nuts to go with it. You'll need little ones. Read the pack and make sure that they will fit a pair of 18 gauge wires. You'll only need a handful. edit2: and either some electrical tape or some zip ties. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Apr 22, 2012 |
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Apr 22, 2012 19:03
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kid sinister posted:Condensers don't have terminal boards really, they're simple enough to not need any advanced circuitry. All the circuit boards are in the furnace and thermostat. All condensers have besides the ground are 2-phase 240V hooked up to a double relay called the contactor, and those 2 low voltage wires hook up to the contactor to turn it off and on. Still, wire nuts are not weatherproof at all and the rain would have got them even if your dog hadn't.
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Apr 22, 2012 21:23
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While we're discussing AC units, I have a question. Yesterday evening I noticed the house was a bit warm. I figured it was just because I was using the oven, but when we went to sleep I noticed it was still really warm in the house. I go check the thermostat and it's 82 in the house (it was set to 76). I check the air filter and although it was a bit dirty, it wasn't to the point of being the problem. Regardless I replaced it this morning. Flashforward a couple hours and it had jumped to 84 in the house. Last night before bed I reset everything, the thermostat, the furnace breaker and the AC breaker outside, so I knew it wasn't those. When I turn on the AC, there is a humming noise of what I think is the motor wanting to start and after a while I hear a second hum of I believe the compressor trying to kick on. I pop open the panel on the outdoor AC unit (Trane XR11) and didn't know much of what I saw. I did some research and I found that usually the problem is the contactor. It seems to be functioning fine though. When I have the AC off, it is pushed out and when it's on, it's pulled in. This makes me think it's the capacitor on the unit, am I thinking that's the problem if neither the outdoor fan or the compressor come on? And if so are there brick and mortar stores you can buy one? I'd like to get it fixed asap as it has now risen to 86 in here.
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May 4, 2012 21:31
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rockcity posted:I did some research and I found that usually the problem is the contactor. It seems to be functioning fine though. When I have the AC off, it is pushed out and when it's on, it's pulled in. This makes me think it's the capacitor on the unit, am I thinking that's the problem if neither the outdoor fan or the compressor come on? And if so are there brick and mortar stores you can buy one? I'd like to get it fixed asap as it has now risen to 86 in here. It's either the capacitor or the contactor, most likely the capacitor. You can test the capacitor with a long screwdriver. Turn on the AC, stick the screwdriver down through the top grill, give the fan a sharp spin so that it would blow air upwards and pull out the screwdriver. If the fan starts up, then you know that the capacitor is bad. You can also check to see if the cap case is leaking or it's bulging out the end. If that doesn't work, then check the contactor. It sounds like it's closing properly, but that doesn't mean that the contactor is making, well, contact on both sides. Do you have a multimeter? Big box stores typically don't have AC parts. Your best bet would be to write down which color wires go to which connectors, pull the problem part out and go to the yellow pages. Call around for AC suppliers and see if they sell parts instead of just do service. If it's the cap you need to replace, give them the specs off the side of the cap while on the phone. There are many different types, especially when you get into dual caps that most condensers use. And ask for the price so you can avoid a ripoff. A contactor runs $10-$25, a cap runs $30-$45. I had a guy once quote me $75 for a cap once on the phone. I told him I could get 2 overnighted for that price. And take the part with you so you can doublecheck at the store. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 23:16 on May 4, 2012 |
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May 4, 2012 23:13
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rockcity posted:While we're discussing AC units, I have a question. Yep. Probably the capacitor. There are usually two separate caps in one can, and they fail at the same time usually. All kinds of places sell them, look for HVAC repair, and make sure they sell to the public. Should be less than :tenbux: Make sure to shut off the disconnect to the outdoor unit before changing the cap.
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May 4, 2012 23:13
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Thanks for the tips. My landlord finally got back to me and apparently someone should be here in the morning. Typically I like to do smaller repairs myself, but with it not being that easy to get a new capacitor, I wanted to try to get them to do it first. She hadn't responded to me since my email and voicemail this morning so I started trying to fix it myself. I did try spinning the fan, but I tried it with the breaker off, just to see if it was seized up (blown motor). Hopefully it's just the capacitor and they can fix it quickly tomorrow. I have a 1500 sq ft sauna going on right now.
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May 5, 2012 00:23
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rockcity posted:Thanks for the tips. My landlord finally got back to me and apparently someone should be here in the morning. Typically I like to do smaller repairs myself, but with it not being that easy to get a new capacitor, I wanted to try to get them to do it first. She hadn't responded to me since my email and voicemail this morning so I started trying to fix it myself. If that's the case, turn the breaker back on and try to spin the vent fan by hand (with a stick or something, not a real hand). If it starts, it's 100% a bad cap. Make sure the compressor is spinning tho. Having that burn would be bad.
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May 5, 2012 00:45
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AlwaysWetID34 fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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May 6, 2012 16:31
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McFunkerson posted:I have a lighting project I'm in the middle of that I could use some friendly good advice for. I purchased a couple of Neon signs used as a store display that I am now restoring and converting for home use. Luckily the neon tested good and I have a couple of 6kv 30ma transformers on order. 1) You are unlikely to melt that connector, current creats heat, not voltage and the current will not be very high in your circuit. 2) There's NO WAY IN HELL I would use that connector on your sign. Contact a sign company and see if they offer any solutions. 3) I doubt you can use standard electrical wire on this circuit. That said, I'm not sure what you should use, somethin with high temp insulation I would imagine. Sign company might be able to help with that also.
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May 6, 2012 16:52
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:1) You are unlikely to melt that connector, current creats heat, not voltage and the current will not be very high in your circuit. I agree with #1 and #3. I would have no problem using the plug you found, just make sure you put some 15kV insulation tape over it. If you need to extend any wiring after the transformer, do make sure you're using wire rated for high voltage. Most neon tube wiring is all 15kV rated, regardless of what your transformer output is. Do check with a neon sign company. You can probably get a foot of the insulating tubing and maybe a plug pair for pretty cheap, perhaps even free if you sound like you know what you're talking about.
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May 6, 2012 18:28
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My buddy is having trouble with his 220V tig welder. We measured the voltages on his panel, and got:code:Ideas?
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May 7, 2012 04:34
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insta posted:My buddy is having trouble with his 220V tig welder. We measured the voltages on his panel, and got: Is this at the main panel or a sub-panel such as in the garage?
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May 7, 2012 10:07
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Main panel exhibits the same symptoms, as does his neighbor.
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May 7, 2012 14:27
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insta posted:My buddy is having trouble with his 220V tig welder. We measured the voltages on his panel, and got: grover fucked around with this message at 14:36 on May 7, 2012 |
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May 7, 2012 14:33
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insta posted:Main panel exhibits the same symptoms, as does his neighbor. I would call the utility and see what they have to say about it. You are outside the allowable voltage tolerance. http://www.powerqualityworld.com/2011/04/ansi-c84-1-voltage-ratings-60-hertz.html
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May 7, 2012 14:57
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I would like to install some under cabinet lighting in our kitchen. I have the lights and some appropriate wire from the hardware store, but I have no idea how to wire it (or anything, for that matter). My plan is to connect them to the wall outlets that are along the wall directly under the cabinets. Since these are not on a switch (always live) and the new lighting has on/off switches, I think I would just pair together the incoming live wires with the new wire for the light, and connect these pairs to the socket just like it already is? Does that make any sense, is it completely wrong? Can some one make it really simple for me? Thank you. I have the outlets turned off at the breaker, so hopefully I can't hurt myself too badly!
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May 7, 2012 23:31
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Associate Christ
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Kaluza-Klein posted:I would like to install some under cabinet lighting in our kitchen. grover fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 8, 2012 |
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May 8, 2012 00:41
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These lights are designed to be hardwired. I have bought the right kind of 14gauge romex in-wall wiring. I would love to install an in-wall switch, but the backsplash of this kitchen is tile all the way around, and cutting through it is a bit more than I want to deal with. The lights themselves have a switch on them, too, thankfully. I have the first light mounted and wired to the romex inside the light case with a proper wire clamp securing the romex in place as it exits the light. A hole was drilled in the wall directly behind the light and the romex fished through and down to the outlet box. The outlet box already has two sets of wires, one connected to each side of the outlet itself. Can I not just add my new wire to one of the sides of the outlet? Thanks again for helping me with this.
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May 8, 2012 01:07
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Kaluza-Klein posted:The outlet box already has two sets of wires, one connected to each side of the outlet itself. Can I not just add my new wire to one of the sides of the outlet? grover fucked around with this message at 01:27 on May 8, 2012 |
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May 8, 2012 01:23
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grover posted:You're not supposed to double-lug, so if this is the 3rd cable in the box, you'll need to make a pigtail: remove one set, and wirenut it to your new wire plus a ~4" piece of wire to run back to the receptacle. Black is hot, white is neutral, and the receptacle is rated for pass-through, so it doesn't matter which set you use. So then there will be a set of lugs with three wires each? This box is going to be a bit tight. . .
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May 8, 2012 01:39
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No. There will be one set of wires connected to the lugs. Off those lugs, you'll have some little 4" chunk of wire, and at the end of that, you wire nut on the remaining lines running out of the box.
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May 8, 2012 01:43
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thelightguy posted:No. There will be one set of wires connected to the lugs. Off those lugs, you'll have some little 4" chunk of wire, and at the end of that, you wire nut on the remaining lines running out of the box. Emphasis mine. Wire is cheap. Make your pigtail 8" long and cut down what you don't use. Code says you must have enough cable in the box to get 4" of wire extending past the face. My local code requires 6" past the face, and it really helps. Make your pigtails ultra-long, then cut them down if you can't fit them in the box. It really, really, really sucks to not have enough wire to work with.
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May 8, 2012 02:45
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