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bidikyoopi posted:Also, firehawk, what's to stop you guys from buying new cars elsewhere? I assume there are huge import taxes but that sounds outrageous, I would just never buy a car if it was more than 35k USD, period.
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Apr 22, 2012 21:37
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firehawk posted:Even when buying a car abroad, we have to pay the vehicle tax when the car is imported to Finland. I calculated that buying from Germany could maybe save me ~1K EUR but that's it. So one way or the other, we're pretty screwed. Same with Canada/US. The prices are so, so great in the States, but once you get done with all the bullshit, you'll barely be paid fairly for your time and effort in bringing it across the border.
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Apr 23, 2012 00:33
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PT6A posted:Same with Canada/US. The prices are so, so great in the States, but once you get done with all the bullshit, you'll barely be paid fairly for your time and effort in bringing it across the border. Even with 6.1% duty, and 15% tax (for the worst provinces), a wrx (26k USD, 32k CDN) comes out to ~32k-33k CDN to import. Tax+destination on a canadian WRX is 39k. Even if you blow 1-1.5k on travel, you still save an absurd amount if you have the cash for it. There are deals to be had, just not on every car and not from every manufacturer. The BRZ/FRS seems to be the exception where the price difference means it would never make sense to buy in the US.
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Apr 23, 2012 03:58
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Cream_Filling posted:
linked for bigger:  edit: oops, didn't mean to get peoples hopes up, that appears to be a scion TC interior. Powershift fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Apr 23, 2012 |
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Apr 23, 2012 04:44
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Powershift posted:I don't know if it's been mentioned, but those are radio controls on the scion steering wheel, you can see the cruise control on the stalk in the bottom right.
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Apr 23, 2012 04:46
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I don't think the Tc's interior has ever gotten anyone's hopes up
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Apr 24, 2012 09:07
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Here is a couple minute video of someone test driving a FR-S in (maybe) Las Vegas this past week: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhupTZs2bX0&feature=youtube_gdata_player And here is a two part video from Subaru talking about the design philosophy and how it relates to the engineering of the car. I found some of the information rather insightful. Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ0sDiL87eE Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdZcX7Hawhk
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Apr 24, 2012 16:19
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One of the nearby autocross events is going to let every competitor do a run in the FR-S, which is a pretty cool way to start selling what will inevitably threaten the local S2000 and Miata dominance.
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Apr 24, 2012 16:26
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Rabble posted:And here is a two part video from Subaru talking about the design philosophy and how it relates to the engineering of the car. I found some of the information rather insightful. 
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Apr 24, 2012 16:39
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Lolcano Eruption posted:I really want to like this car, I'm the target demographic: early twenties male, but the interior is just godawful. I just took this "Advance Product Guide" from my Subaru dealer. I don't think they're marketing to an early 20's male. More likely an age that actually have money. 
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Apr 24, 2012 20:37
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Chriskory posted:I don't think they're marketing to an early 20's male. More likely an age that actually have money. I think that's been pretty established. I don't see this being the car that the 20yo boy racers whose parents got them STis will be jumping onto.
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Apr 24, 2012 21:00
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kimbo305 posted:I think that's been pretty established. I don't see this being the car that the 20yo boy racers whose parents got them STis will be jumping onto. Eh more like 20yo boy racers whose parents will buy them STis are such a miniscule group in terms of numbers that it's pointless to go after them. Seriously, median household income in the US is under $50k pre-tax. We just notice them because, although they're a very small group, they're disproportionately annoying for their size.
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Apr 24, 2012 21:17
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I have to say, STi owners seem pretty young. I've seen maybe 1 50-yo guy in an STi locally. But maybe it's guys with money.
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Apr 24, 2012 23:11
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I don't think that many potential STi customers are serious BRZ intenders, or vice versa.
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Apr 25, 2012 02:42
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kimbo305 posted:I have to say, STi owners seem pretty young. I've seen maybe 1 50-yo guy in an STi locally. But maybe it's guys with money. For most, the WRX is probably enough for them at that age or they are shopping BMW or others.
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Apr 25, 2012 02:46
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Jalopnik loves it: http://jalopnik.com/5904824/scion-fr+s-first-drive No surprises in there, except maybe mildly surprising modesty from an auto journo regarding his own driving skill.
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Apr 25, 2012 05:25
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kimbo305 posted:Jalopnik loves it: Scion released the press embargo today, all of the usual places have their reviews up. Anyone else think that there is just slightly too too much wheel well gap?
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Apr 25, 2012 16:48
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discstickers posted:Scion released the press embargo today, all of the usual places have their reviews up. No. That's what a normal car looks like.
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Apr 25, 2012 17:45
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discstickers posted:Scion released the press embargo today, all of the usual places have their reviews up. Yeah it could be lowered a little and still look good IMO
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Apr 25, 2012 19:03
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Somewhat related, it seems that Scion is retiring the xB and xD without (direct) replacements, which would leave them (temporarily) with just the FR-S, the dated Tc and the iQ city car: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/04/peace-out-scion-xb/#more-441425 (the Ward's article is behind a paywall) I'm with the other posters who've said making this a Scion and not a Toyota stateside is a bit baffling, and now it looks like Scion may be trying to 'redefine their brand image' overall; to what, there's no telling. Makes me worry the FR-S could end up like the Saturn Sky and have the entire brand terminated from out from under it.
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Apr 25, 2012 20:48
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Subaru would have to stop the BRZ immediately to hang on to the "It's really rare guys" cachet. 
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Apr 25, 2012 20:53
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Snowdens Secret posted:Somewhat related, it seems that Scion is retiring the xB and xD without (direct) replacements, which would leave them (temporarily) with just the FR-S, the dated Tc and the iQ city car: Reposting this with updated 2012 YTD figures (Jan-Mar): hahahah I looked up the numbers pre:Year Scion xB Scion tC ScionxD ScioniQ Kia Soul Nissan Cube Miata 2003 6936 3962 10,920 2004 47,013 28,062 24,184 9356 2005 54,037 74,415 28,033 9801 2006 61,306 79,125 32,603 16,897 2007 45,834 (2g) 63,852 20,495 15,075 2008 45,220 40,980 27,704 10,977 2009 25,361 17,998 14,502 31,620 21,471 7917 2010 20,364 15,204 10,110 67,110 22,968 6370 2011 17,017 22,433(2g) 9573 248 102,267 14,459 5674 2012ytd 4865 5233 2550 2523 32,574 2077 1454 The ugly as gently caress Nissan Cube outsold you guys simply by virtue of not being a fat CUV like you turned the xB into. As soon as Kia and Nissan started selling stuff more similar to the old xB than the new xB, your sales loving cratered and never recovered. edit: a chart i did and one from the internet  
OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Apr 25, 2012 |
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Apr 25, 2012 22:05
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Cream_Filling posted:The ugly as gently caress Nissan Cube outsold you guys simply by virtue of not being a fat CUV like you turned the xB into. Your numbers show the Cube outselling the xB by 13% in 2011 but underselling it in all other time periods. I don't know if you can blame Scion or its marketing for the Soul seeing a rise in popularity that is unprecedented with the xB.
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Apr 25, 2012 22:28
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Splizwarf posted:Subaru would have to stop the BRZ immediately to hang on to the "It's really rare guys" cachet. Posible reason: http://kaizenfactor.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/the-forester-factor-an-unexpected-reason-why-brz-fr-s-gt-86-production-capacity-is-limited/
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Apr 25, 2012 22:37
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kimbo305 posted:Your numbers show the Cube outselling the xB by 13% in 2011 but underselling it in all other time periods. Yeah but it seems like a pretty interesting coincidence that sales of the xB went down as soon as they made it enormous (1 foot longer, 600 lbs heavier, etc) and turned it from a small car with no real competitors to a larger car with many similarly sized and priced competitors. Also, if you disregard first year sales (since they're always unusually low) and just look at the xB sales from 2004-2006 (the time of changeover to the second generation) and assume it just goes up from there, you'll find that the projected peak is around what the soul sales were in 2011. Not exactly rigorous, but as far as wild guesses go it's certainly interesting. I'm assuming that the market for small boxwagons was created by the xB and that consumer acceptance means that the style will grow at a roughly linear rate. Again, very very unscientific and total garbage statistics, but as far as gut feeling goes, it certainly doesn't go against my contention that the redesign of the xB was a dumb move. Scion's explanation as to retiring the xB seems to be that the xB was a fad but that after the initial popularity wore off, people got sick of it and it didn't mark the creation of a new subtype of car. The phrase some Scion VP used was that "our original approach to models was "one and done." The sales of the Soul totally put lie to that since clearly cheap little boxy cars that are similar in dimensions and price to the original xB are selling really really well. The alternative explanation I'm advancing is that the reason sales of the xB dropped all of a sudden in 2006 after consistently increasing was because the product itself changed significantly, which it did at that time. 
OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Apr 25, 2012 |
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Apr 25, 2012 22:46
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Snowdens Secret posted:Somewhat related, it seems that Scion is retiring the xB and xD without (direct) replacements, which would leave them (temporarily) with just the FR-S, the dated Tc and the iQ city car: The tC is dated? It's brand new as of 2011. And Saturn had a whole host of problems that had nothing to do with the Sky. Saturn was never profitable in it's 20 years of operation whereas Scion has done incredibly well for Toyota. Making the 86 a Scion makes complete sense to me. The 86 doesn't fit in with Toyota's image in the US of wholesome family sedans, SUVs, and trucks, or Lexus' image of refined performance and luxury. It really only works well with the Scion branding. And why does it really matter? It's the same drat car with a different badge. Edit: It would have worked 15 years ago for sure when the Supra and Celica were still around, but Toyota made the Scion brand specifically to fit cars that appeal to a certain demographic. (even though people twice the age of their target have been their biggest customers.) BoostCreep fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 25, 2012 |
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Apr 25, 2012 22:56
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Cream_Filling posted:Yeah but it seems like a pretty interesting coincidence that sales of the xB went down as soon as they made it enormous (1 foot longer, 600 lbs heavier, etc) and turned it from a small car with no real competitors to a larger car with many similarly sized and priced competitors. I guess I don't know what you meant by outsold. And I'm not sure I buy your linear growth targets for the xB sales over time. Just cuz the Soul was able to hit 100k doesn't mean the 1g or 2g xB ever could, even given a longer runway.
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Apr 25, 2012 22:57
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kimbo305 posted:I guess I don't know what you meant by outsold. Yeah, again, this isn't at all conclusive evidence. I'm just speculating generally, but I feel like it's a decent speculation. The 1G xB sold really very well and their sales were consistently increasing until the second generation hit, after which their sales got really bad. A ton of other stuff happened in the market, what with the crash around that time, but at the same time I'm saying that the success of the Soul, which has really really similar dimensions and pricing to the first xB, seems to show that there was definitely room in the market for a smaller car instead of the CUV that the second gen xB became. The second generation xB was one foot longer, 600 pounds heavier, and cost about $3000 more than the original xB. It got significantly worse gas mileage, and it became very similar in size and price to the small CUVs that everyone (including Toyota themselves) was selling at the time. This was a massive massive change in product that I think was the primary and only reason Scion xB sales dropped the way they did. The argument is that generally, the second gen xB could have sold a lot better if they had kept it similar to the first gen in terms of size. I'm just using a linear model because it's easy to draw and also because the three years of sales prior to the release of the 2g xB showed fairly linear growth. Obviously 3 years isn't enough to say solidly, but it's just a hunch. Among other things, I am taking a very product-centered view on sales that assumes that actual tangible product qualities and specifications matter more to sales than advertising, etc. edit: Also, you're right. Maybe outsold was the wrong word. I'm saying overall that the new xB was a failure and it was because of dumb design moves by Scion that it did poorly. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 25, 2012 |
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Apr 25, 2012 23:03
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BoostCreep posted:The tC is dated? It's brand new as of 2011. The tC just made no sense whatsoever, in my opinion. As best as I can tell, I was the target demographic, and it didn't even rate a test drive when I was looking for a car. Why would any sane person buy a FWD, fairly underpowered coupe? It doesn't have handling, it doesn't have power, and it doesn't have practicality. At most, it was a slightly interesting looking car for not too much money. That was it. It's reasonably heavy for what it is, and its fuel economy is poo poo. Scion became too focused on image, and not enough on anything that makes cars worthwhile to buy. Hopefully the FR-S represents the start of a turnaround. Sadly, the only thing it represents to the main market of people who would buy FR-Ss is a history of poor decisions and failure.
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Apr 26, 2012 01:07
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PT6A posted:The tC just made no sense whatsoever, in my opinion. As best as I can tell, I was the target demographic, and it didn't even rate a test drive when I was looking for a car. Why would any sane person buy a FWD, fairly underpowered coupe? It doesn't have handling, it doesn't have power, and it doesn't have practicality. At most, it was a slightly interesting looking car for not too much money. That was it. It's reasonably heavy for what it is, and its fuel economy is poo poo. Not everybody cares about having rear wheel drive or the best handling or the most power or the most practicality. There are reasons you see tiburons, altima coupes, accord coupes and monte carlos everywhere.
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Apr 26, 2012 01:20
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Powershift posted:Not everybody cares about having rear wheel drive or the best handling or the most power or the most practicality. There are reasons you see tiburons, altima coupes, accord coupes and monte carlos everywhere. Yes... the Tiburon was sold before the GenCoupe was released for a small amount more. Altima and Accord Coupes have a lot more than 180bhp, if I'm not mistaken, not that I don't think those are poor choices as well. I just don't understand compromising on power, handling, fuel economy and practicality. You should be able to get at least one or two of those for a reasonable price if you're in the financial position to buy a new car. Even the pre-2011 Mustang V6 had a significant amount of additional horsepower. PT6A fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 01:25
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PT6A posted:The tC just made no sense whatsoever, in my opinion. As best as I can tell, I was the target demographic, and it didn't even rate a test drive when I was looking for a car. Why would any sane person buy a FWD, fairly underpowered coupe? It doesn't have handling, it doesn't have power, and it doesn't have practicality. At most, it was a slightly interesting looking car for not too much money. That was it. It's reasonably heavy for what it is, and its fuel economy is poo poo. I'm not a huge car nut, but as I've said several times in this thread I love my tC. Tons of space to move stuff around and to me the handling and acceleration is great. It's not a track car. I don't expect to drift through corners on a 5 lane road. I love the way the car feels. Any time I drive something else it feels awkward.
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Apr 26, 2012 01:34
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PT6A posted:Yes... the Tiburon was sold before the GenCoupe was released for a small amount more. Altima and Accord Coupes have a lot more than 180bhp, if I'm not mistaken, not that I don't think those are poor choices as well. The $23,780 nissan altima coupe has 175hp, if you want the 270hp v6, you're spending $28,710(and that's in the states, i don't have the stomach to look it up for canada) The $$23,080 honda accord coupe has 190hp, if you want the 271hp v6, you're spending $30,030 So you get 175-190hp for v6 mustang money, and 270-271hp for 5.0 money, and these cars still sell.
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Apr 26, 2012 01:47
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I mean in the end it all comes down to personal taste and test drives, etc., but I test-drove a previous gen tC and I wasn't particularly impressed. In terms of practicality, it's only got two doors yet it doesn't look good enough to justify that sacrifice. I wouldn't say the exterior was ugly, but it's not remarkable either. The interior was pretty bad in the one I saw, and this is coming from someone who currently drives a GC Impreza. The only real major selling point was the giant sunroof/moonroof, and I wasn't interested because I hate sunroofs and putting weight on the roof of a coupe sounds kind of dumb. In the $17-20k range that the tC competes in, there's a hell of a lot of good competition for sporty-ish small cars. If I wanted practical, I'd get a Mazda 3 or an Impreza, both of which have 4 doors and much, much lower insurance costs while still being fun to drive. If I wanted sporty, I could stretch and pay a little more for a base or slightly used V6 Mustang or Mini Cooper. And then there's weird stuff like the Veloster or the Honda CRZ, both of which are in the same price range and number of doors and both of which are funky looking, too. I know all cars are compromises at a given price and size between looks, sportiness, and practicality, but I guess I just don't see how the tC is that superior in any way. It's got ok looks, an awful interior, it's super-expensive to insure, and it's not really that sporty. But that's just my impression from a short test-drive, and obviously it's taken using my priorities and biases. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 01:57
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Powershift posted:The $23,780 nissan altima coupe has 175hp, if you want the 270hp v6, you're spending $28,710(and that's in the states, i don't have the stomach to look it up for canada) Do they sell, though? Usually the manufacturers like to report combined sedan + coupe numbers, so I can't say, but I certainly don't see many around. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 02:03
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Cream_Filling posted:Do they sell, though? Usually the manufacturers like to report combined sedan + coupe numbers, so I can't say, but I certainly don't see many around. Enough to be worth making since the early 90s. The 2 door versions of the Altima/Accord, Camry Solara, Mitsubish Eclipse, etc have always been US market only(the Eclipse might have been exported ocasionally), they never sold them anywhere else. There is a particular market segment of "empty nesters who don't want a sports or muscle car but have no use for a 4 door sedan and would rather just have a regular reliable fuel gas sipping car optimized for 2 old fat people + luggage and occasional child in the backseat", that exists only in the US. Sort of like a 6 series or SL but for regular people. I think it's only possible in countries where the average household owns 5 cars already and lives in the suburbs.
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Apr 26, 2012 02:37
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Cream_Filling posted:Do they sell, though? Usually the manufacturers like to report combined sedan + coupe numbers, so I can't say, but I certainly don't see many around. I see Accord, Altima, and Camry (Solara) coupes all the time. They seem very popular with single middle-aged people.
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Apr 26, 2012 03:04
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Cream_Filling posted:tC stuff I bought a 2005 tC new and drove it for almost 3 years. It really was a fantastic car. It got pretty decent gas mileage with the 2.4 160hp engine. It had plenty of torque and power for what it was, at least enough to get out of its own way merging onto highways in LA. Also being a hatch, it was HUGE inside once the rear seats were down. I made a trip to Ikea when I moved to California and was able to fit a queen size bed (not incl. mattress of course), dresser, standing cabinet, two end tables with drawers, two 6' tall lamps, a full ikea sized rectangular desk, small trash can, and I think some other small stuff inside with enough room for myself and someone in the passenger seat. 6'4 friends fit perfectly fine in the back seat without crushing their legs or heads too. The moonroof was excellent, insurance was cheap for me even in California at age 25, and it was standard Toyota build quality, so it didn't have a single issue in the 35k miles I had it. (and I beat the piss out of that car.) And on top of that, I traded it in to a dealer almost 3 years later with a busted and rusty front fender from a palm frond falling during a storm for $13,000 . That was only $3,000 less than I paid for it! Honestly, I can't see how anyone would think that is a bad car. You almost can't have a better car for city living. It was the perfect size. I still kind of miss it.
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Apr 26, 2012 03:23
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Cream_Filling posted:CHARTS
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Apr 26, 2012 03:33
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Meatsicle posted:As a gencoupe owner, I am insulted that you didn't include it in your chart. Especially since you have the Veloster in there. Hyundai USA does this thing where they combine sales numbers for the Genesis and Genesis Coupe for some reason.
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Apr 26, 2012 04:21
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