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Technique posted:After clearing the first day, i can safely say that i love DS2 so far. The atmosphere is nice and bleak, the characters seem pretty cool so far (Daichi in particular; I expected a generic Zany Anime Best Friend, but he's badass as gently caress??) and the gameplay is solid. Music owns too, even. If you see a Death Clip, you should prioritize stopping it, because, you know, otherwise... Go ahead and do your battles, you'll have plenty of free time afterwards to run around and chat with your pals.
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Apr 26, 2012 02:14
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Zombies' Downfall posted:The concept of S Links in the newer Persona games absolutely contribute to their themes; your character is special for their ability to change personas, which essentially means you're "changing your face" to be able to protect yourself and others. Each of the S Links, because they advance when you pick the answers the other person wants or needs to hear (not what's morally or logically right), represents a different facet of the protag's personality. It isn't about hiding or eradicating the true self, though; it's about recognizing that there is no such thing as a Platonic self. All of those facets, good and ill, are a part of who you are and successfully coming to grips with and integrating them into your conception of identity are how you become a fully-realized adult. A large part of the action of P4 was everyone in the party doing this. And of course, sometimes even "the immutable true self doesn't exist" is the opposite of what somebody needs to hear at a particular moment, even if it's true. In P4, look at Teddie's reaction to Rise's epiphany that the two sides of herself aren't mutually exclusive, taking "there's no real me" as meaning "my existence isn't real". Unlike every other character, he inflames his shadow side not by saying "You're not me" but by saying "I'm not me." Which makes sense, considering what he is. Corrosion posted:It's such a great game to use content in this way. Now if anyone can provide examples of what kind of message and themes that Devil Survivor 2 has in this same, err gently caress, similar way (excuse me), I'm interested in seeing what folks walked away with. Because with Devil Survivor 1, I just remember walking away with "Oh look biblical symbolism, this is stupid." Maybe it's changed in 2, I don't know. For all the criticism that Persona 3/4 gets for social links, I just don't have reason to believe that there's any of this type of stuff used to greater effect in Devil Survivor. I honestly don't see how this is a relevant question. Even if DS2's FATE system doesn't serve the same dramatic purpose in that game that Persona's S-Link system did in P3/4, there's no reason it couldn't be adapted to do so. At its heart, looking purely at the mechanics without reference to specific content, it's simply a more flexible and adaptive version of the S-Link system, and flexibility and adaptivity were exactly what it felt to me like P3/4's S-Link system lacked. If you're talking about the quality of the writing while I'm talking about mechanics, that explains why it felt like we were talking across each other a bit last night. Thuryl fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 02:20
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Technique posted:After clearing the first day, i can safely say that i love DS2 so far. The atmosphere is nice and bleak, the characters seem pretty cool so far (Daichi in particular; I expected a generic Zany Anime Best Friend, but he's badass as gently caress??) and the gameplay is solid. Music owns too, even. It varies! On Day 1, you'll see a lot of optional events disappear, never to be seen again. On Days 2 and 3, most optional events will stick around until you're forced to travel. After that, most (but not all) optional events will stick around until you choose them. This is more true for the characters who aren't central to the plot -- I think Jungo's events can be saved until literally right before The Big Choice, while Ronaldo is tied much more closely to what's happening with the story. I think battle events are either mandatory or very obviously goofy and optional. When they're mandatory, you _might_ need to prioritize them to stay on top of any time limits that will come up later in the day.
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Apr 26, 2012 16:37
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Technique posted:After clearing the first day, i can safely say that i love DS2 so far. The atmosphere is nice and bleak, the characters seem pretty cool so far (Daichi in particular; I expected a generic Zany Anime Best Friend, but he's badass as gently caress??) and the gameplay is solid. Music owns too, even. Jungo #1, then not really. Top priority should always be rescue oriented missions (RAM!!!). I played through for all 5 endings without losing interest due to the mechanics/demon compendium. Lots of experimention/exploitation to mess with thanks to tons of great demons.
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Apr 26, 2012 16:52
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So, I accidentally purchased Persona 1 when attempting to get P3P on PSN. Seeing as Sony doesnt like refunds Im pretty much stuck with it. Im assuming if I go through playing it, I should do so in sequential order, or are the two so different that it wouldnt mater? EDIT: Read the OP, looks like I'll try P1 first. Fancy Hat! fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 21:01
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Thuryl posted:I honestly don't see how this is a relevant question. Even if DS2's FATE system doesn't serve the same dramatic purpose in that game that Persona's S-Link system did in P3/4, there's no reason it couldn't be adapted to do so. At its heart, looking purely at the mechanics without reference to specific content, it's simply a more flexible and adaptive version of the S-Link system, and flexibility and adaptivity were exactly what it felt to me like P3/4's S-Link system lacked. If you're talking about the quality of the writing while I'm talking about mechanics, that explains why it felt like we were talking across each other a bit last night. I'm not excluding the mechanics or writing, the mechanic of social links only works because of the type of story being told. It's a vessel for presenting the story. And so far, your only justification is that I would see whether or not Akihiko feels awkward... which is nice, but it's not Akihiko's story, it's the player character's. The nature of the story is what makes that super minute detail excusable. The nature of the story is what makes the Social Link system seem more complex to me, and I've asked for anyone to tell me the ramifications of Devil Survivor 2's story and that door's still open, whereas you're saying that a potentially dramatic, retroactive change of mechanics wouldn't have an impact on writing. They both have an effect on each other. We're not crossing lines of logic, you're not seeing the whole picture. If you were to "adapt" Fate System to Persona, it wouldn't be a minute change to Social Links. The shift to include the side characters is pretty dramatic, you're trying to ultimately make it the party's story, when the reality is that the very narrative of the game is saying "You decided to go to school", "You decided to do this." "You" being the Player Character. That's a very dramatic shift in perspective, and for what? A massive change in just what the story is about. When you change game mechanics, you have an effect on narrative and ultimately I'm saying that I have only reason to believe that Devil Survivor 2's story just isn't that deep until someone convinces me otherwise. If you can't see how the character development in Persona 3/4, even with social links, is adequate in spite of its flaws, let me just say this: The Fate System as you've presented it to me only presents a cosmetic improvement of character presence at the expense of the game's underlying narrative and perspective on the player, which is the only reason Social Links work in the first place. By the very nature of Visual Novel decision mechanics, you are taking an emphasis off of characters. The Fate System pushing other characters into the plot of Persona 3/4 when the game's focus is on the Protagonist is defeating the point of the message. You need a better reason than "Well, Akihiko would have been awkward after this event." You're only supporting what I said in that you're not "improving Social Links", you're changing the mechanics of the plot's delivery to something completely different. Characterization in that manner would force the games to require a completely different system, which is why it's not an "improvement" which is what I was getting at. If you don't account for the story being told, which ultimately Social Links and Fate System are a vessel for, then you're thinking in pieces, which is why I say you haven't proven how it would be better outside of some basic novelties. Devil Survivor 2, I feel safe in saying, isn't even on the level of Persona 3/4's plot and what it attempts to say. What good is a Fate System improving character specifics if character specifics are negligible to the message? Think about this holistically.
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Apr 26, 2012 21:09
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Corrosion posted:If you don't account for the story being told, which ultimately Social Links and Fate System are a vessel for, then you're thinking in pieces, which is why I say you haven't proven how it would be better outside of some basic novelties. Devil Survivor 2, I feel safe in saying, isn't even on the level of Persona 3/4's plot and what it attempts to say. What good is a Fate System improving character specifics if character specifics are negligible to the message? Think about this holistically. The problem here is that P3P is basically a visual novel with a lovely dungeon tagged on and a dating sim. It's absolutely brilliant with the aesthetics, themes, and plot devices. Edit for clarification: It plays like 3 different games and does not handle the shifts well. The FATE system used in DS2 allowed the characters to integrate with the plot more realistically. Yes it was a lovely one but the DS games are more about mechanics than plot. Pierce fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 21:19
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That's a poor strawman. Firstly, characterization improved from Persona 3 to Persona 4, largely because Persona 4 has arguably better characters overall. Their struggles are more easily understood, their problems and situations are poignant compared to "I'm a rich girl" or "I scan monsters for you." However, Persona 3's various party and NPC Social Links still do their job of creating a story that compliments the Player. Social Links only benefit more as a result of better writing in Persona 4, so you can actually apply linear progression and stronger use of the system there for making the player examine themselves via their choices. When you see the conflicts that your party goes through, gender roles, socioeconomic problems, and family... yeah, Social Links poo poo all over Fate System from Devil Survivor because they do more than just determine whether someone is more obviously "related to the immediate plot which isn't even that good anyway by admission." What's the point of using a system that doesn't compliment the writing at all? That you'd have to change things around to even see any benefit, where at that point you're making changes rather than improvements? Whether or not those conflicts are time or context sensitive doesn't matter. Players saw much better characters and characterization in spite of any time sensitive writing. It's just not that important, and it ignores the message and shows a lack of understanding on the part of players as to what was going on in Persona 3/4 and why Social Links worked. If you feel you want to see more immediate character presence in Persona 3/4's plot because a game with a shittier plot and a different story has a really dumb plot gimmick, the bottom line is you don't quite understand why Social Links worked. I think it's easy to argue that there are possibly better story telling systems, but that's not the point. In direct comparison, Persona 3/4 vs Devil Survivor's is a no contest, so trying to say "Well I don't get why characters were important here even though there's plenty of evidence to support it" isn't telling of a problem with Persona 3/4. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 21:34
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I'd personally prefer to see Persona 5 use the fate system or something similar, because at least they would all be related to the plot. You're making the mistake of not seperating the writing, which is definitely not as good as persona, to the actual system itself which I feel is superior. Why do I want to hang out with Saki's brother, drama/music club girls, the nurse? Persona 4 makes it fairly clear that hanging out with the investigation team is the thing you should do first. Why not just get rid of those superfluous links, add more characters (or add NPC characters that are directly related to the plot rather than just being some nurse), and make it more urgent? DS and DS2 definitely do a better job with making any choice you make matter (they don't do it perfectly, but most games don't), in Persona 4 all the choices you make until November just impact how many levels your personae get when you fuse, and what abilities your teammates have.
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Apr 26, 2012 21:44
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Cityinthesea posted:I'd personally prefer to see Persona 5 use the fate system or something similar, because at least they would all be related to the plot. You're making the mistake of not seperating the writing, which is definitely not as good as persona, to the actual system itself which I feel is superior. Why do I want to hang out with Saki's brother, drama/music club girls, the nurse? Persona 4 makes it fairly clear that hanging out with the investigation team is the thing you should do first. Why not just get rid of those superfluous links, add more characters (or add NPC characters that are directly related to the plot rather than just being some nurse), and make it more urgent? DS and DS2 definitely do a better job with making any choice you make matter (they don't do it perfectly, but most games don't), in Persona 4 all the choices you make until November just impact how many levels your personae get when you fuse, and what abilities your teammates have. I am saying the system is only good because it's a vessel for delivering a story, so the writing matters. I'm not separating the writing because that's the entire basis for the argument you and others are making. "The story and system will be better, improved, because you're including this thing that dramatically depends on writing." Make no mistake, the Fate System would tell an entirely different story and no one's really convinced me otherwise, that it would be a measurable improvement or that it's better. How could they? It'd be subjective to writing which, at that point, would be telling a different story, which was the first point of contention I made anyway. It's going to either be different or, taking it a step further, not an improvement anyway.
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Apr 26, 2012 21:50
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Fancy Hat! posted:So, I accidentally purchased Persona 1 when attempting to get P3P on PSN. Seeing as Sony doesnt like refunds Im pretty much stuck with it. Im assuming if I go through playing it, I should do so in sequential order, or are the two so different that it wouldnt mater? Its a really awful game but you might as well play it.
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Apr 26, 2012 21:52
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Corrosion posted:I am saying the system is only good because it's a vessel for delivering a story, so the writing matters. I'm not separating the writing because that's the entire basis for the argument you and others are making. "The story and system will be better, improved, because you're including this thing that dramatically depends on writing." I mean, Persona 1 and 2 are completely different games aren't they? the jump from Persona 2 to 3 would still be more radical than the jump from 4 to 5 if they include the fate system instead of social links.
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Apr 26, 2012 22:10
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You're jumping in on a conversation you don't fully understand. If this seems half-assed, well... anyway. This started out and is about my argument against the Fate System being a proposed improvement to Social Links (IE: They're better). I'm convinced they aren't, especially at this stage. No argument has been presented that actually says, specifically, what the Fate System would improve about the story in Persona 3/4. The person I rebutted against isn't proposing an improvement at all, that's my argument. I don't care what gets specifically changed, because my argument doesn't hinge on that. It's that there would have to be change in the first place. Just because you like something better doesn't mean it makes something else better or worse. Where this conversation started wasn't originally for or against Fate System, they're proposing a dramatic change and framing it as "better." I'm saying it's different, and taking it further as not being different in any meaningful or significant way. That is my argument, it will remain my argument. Moreover, I just took it upon myself to go further because I'm pretty confident that the Fate System is some lovely theorycrafted method for players that didn't really come to any meaningful conclusions as to what Persona 3/4 was about in the first place, much less how a plot mechanic might actually hinge on plot/writing. It's just a response to the laziness I'm seeing.
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Apr 26, 2012 22:34
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Corrosion posted:Moreover, I just took it upon myself to go further because I'm pretty confident that the Fate System is some lovely theorycrafted method for players that didn't really come to any meaningful conclusions as to what Persona 3/4 was about in the first place, much less how a plot mechanic might actually hinge on plot/writing. You mean wasting the player's time with needless padding that both drags the pacing of the game's actual plot and the SLink plots down to a crawl? That's pretty much what the SLink system does.
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Apr 26, 2012 22:40
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Eh, just disregard. I don't want to respond to something like that.
Corrosion fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 22:48
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Corrosion posted:Social Links are pretty great, though the system is obviously good in spite itself. I already said I think the Fate System and Social Links should just go, but sorry, Fate System is still gimmicky and, like your effort, isn't on any decent level of quality. That's the difference. I prefer mechanics over plot. SJ is still my favorite SMT game and I have yet to play P4 (waiting for The Golden). Having come late to the Persona series and anticipating a better dungeon made the S. Link system a drag.
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Apr 26, 2012 22:55
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Pierce posted:That's the difference. I prefer mechanics over plot. SJ is still my favorite SMT game and I have yet to play P4 (waiting for The Golden). Having come late to the Persona series and anticipating a better dungeon made the S. Link system a drag. It's okay to have a preference. But I think these mechanics and plot here are intrinsic, and my arguments are fairly adamant about explaining why. Even then, Fate System/Viewer, since I have to apparently educate myself, doesn't even sound good as a simple system. If I don't care about the characters, why should I bother saving them? If the story isn't that good, what's the appeal of the system? Checking off blocks? This is all theory, but again, I see plenty of reassurance that people liked this system, but I can think for myself. If this is Devil Survivor 1 with a dumb, path/content based system, to each their own.
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Apr 26, 2012 22:59
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Corrosion posted:Moreover, I just took it upon myself to go further because I'm pretty confident that the Fate System is some lovely theorycrafted method for players that didn't really come to any meaningful conclusions as to what Persona 3/4 was about in the first place, much less how a plot mechanic might actually hinge on plot/writing. It's just a response to the laziness I'm seeing. Have you even played DS2? Because this is completely loving wrong.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:02
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Corrosion posted:Even then, Fate System/Viewer, since I have to apparently educate myself, doesn't even sound good as a simple system. If I don't care about the characters, why should I bother saving them? If the story isn't that good, what's the appeal of the system? Checking off blocks? This is all theory, but again, I see plenty of reassurance that people liked this system, but I can think for myself. If this is Devil Survivor 1 with a dumb, path/content based system, to each their own. Just to be clear: Have you played Devil Survivor 2 or not?
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Apr 26, 2012 23:02
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TurnipFritter posted:Just to be clear: Have you played Devil Survivor 2 or not? To be clear, you should read my posts. You were insulting enough the first time.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:03
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They really aren't all that different mechanically, the big thing being you can actually raise a relation with someone through plot decisions with fate whereas with the social links the collected points accumulate but don't do anything unless you hang out with that specific person. It's a small change but it makes things feel much more organic
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Apr 26, 2012 23:03
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Corrosion posted:To be clear, you should read my posts. You were insulting enough the first time. You've been really dismissive and condescending to other posters (because they don't "get" Persona 3 and Persona 4, which, yeah ok), and the way you talk about the fate system leads me to believe you haven't actually played the game, so I was just wondering.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:08
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RentACop posted:They really aren't all that different mechanically, the big thing being you can actually raise a relation with someone through plot decisions with fate whereas with the social links the collected points accumulate but don't do anything unless you hang out with that specific person. It's a small change but it makes things feel much more organic Eh, no, these systems are dramatically different. They're similar in ways, but that dramatic difference is that Social Links use stat bonuses to incentivize the player toward the game's message. You aren't unlocking paths or content in a mechanics sense, you're deriving potentially greater meaning to characters and the world in which your main character resides. Organic is relative to the nature of the story, and it's pretty clear that Devil Survivor 2 is telling a different story from the Persona games.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:08
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So, I'm a big fan of the Giant Bomb Endurance Run of 4, and 3 went up on PS3 as a download the other day so...Yeah, I bought it. So far I'm really enjoying it. And by so far I mean "Since I spent literally 12 hours straight playing it yesterday because I completely lost track of time." The battle system doesn't seem to be as good as P4's direct control was, but I'm actually liking all of the characters quite a bit, even if a lot of them seem like off brand version of P4 characters (although maybe that's the other way around for someone who played them in order?). But yeah, I'm really liking it, and it's the first JRPG that I have ever actually liked playing 
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Apr 26, 2012 23:10
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RentACop posted:It's a small change but it makes things feel much more organic That's how I felt. The DS series has much more focus on mechanics due to the nature of SRPGs. It also seems more experimental and the Fate system came off as an evolved version of the S. Link.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:11
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Corrosion posted:Organic is relative to the nature of the story, and it's pretty clear that Devil Survivor 2 is telling a different story from the Persona games. What really makes a Persona game? Like, the two Persona 2 games are telling wildly different things than Persona 3 and 4. You're talking as though Persona is unchanging, which it isn't. Do I think they're gonna change it? no. To say that the fate system would somehow not work in any persona game... that's probably also wrong.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:17
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Cityinthesea posted:What really makes a Persona game? Like, the two Persona 2 games are telling wildly different things than Persona 3 and 4. You're talking as though Persona is unchanging, which it isn't. Do I think they're gonna change it? no. To say that the fate system would somehow not work in any persona game... that's probably also wrong. That's not my point, nor what I'm trying to define. I'm referring to Persona 3 and 4 when I say that, because Social Links are relevant to those games only. We are only talking about Persona 3/4 Social Links and story in contrast with Devil Survivor and Fate System. I recommend, NOT TO BE PRETENTIOUS like whatever Turnip is accusing me of, reading where this conversation started between myself and Thuryl and coming back to where we are right here. There's a lot of things I just don't want to type again, if you'll humor me. Anyway, because I'm not trying to define what makes a Persona game or whatever. I'm saying that Persona 3/4, the "Persona games" in question that I reference, have a unique message and that the delivery of that message shouldn't be taken lightly or dumbed down with "Well, just put this system in it'd be better but I can only say how by saying the game it comes from makes it seem more organic."
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Apr 26, 2012 23:21
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The thing is, the Fate System is, in a lot of ways, virtually indistinguishable from Social Links. The most important difference is that A) it can rank up during story links meaning you can max it without completing that particular character's story (though if you ignore their story you definitely will not max that character's link), and B) it ties in to the main storyline more. That's not to say it's an extension of the main storyline, because it isn't. Instead, and I cannot emphasize this enough, it's still about the character's unique personal storyline, but without completely ignoring the main storyline. EDIT: You won't get the NG+ points title if you don't complete their storyline, also, but that's not the same thing.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:25
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Corrosion posted:Eh, no, these systems are dramatically different. They're similar in ways, but that dramatic difference is that Social Links use stat bonuses to incentivize the player toward the game's message. You aren't unlocking paths or content in a mechanics sense, you're deriving potentially greater meaning to characters and the world in which your main character resides. Fate levels yield new stat bonuses for allies, a mechanic that makes unlocking new powers easier, and new demons. Social links increase fusion experience bonuses and eventually unlock new personas. Except social links are almost entirely separated into their own little ghetto of gameplay that doesn't intersect with the plot. It works against its own message due to that near-complete disconnect
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Apr 26, 2012 23:26
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Corrosion posted:I'm saying that Persona 3/4, the "Persona games" in question that I reference, have a unique message and that the delivery of that message shouldn't be taken lightly or dumbed down with "Well, just put this system in it'd be better but I can only say how by saying the game it comes from makes it seem more organic." That's where you are coming across as pretentious. You are basing your judgment on this thread rather than the system. Dealing with P3P in particular since I am 3/4 of the way through my 2nd play: It would be nice if Mitsuru would at least acknowledge the death of her father in S. Link interaction That's why it is more organic.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:30
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Now, I'm gonna say this right now, this is what I asked for waaaaay back in that sea of posts. For someone to be specific. This is why it doesn't matter whether I played it or not, because from the very beginning of this conversation, I asked someone to be specific in this manner. Way back when I was discussing with Thuryl (I think we're still discussing), myself and another poster pointed out why Social Links still tie into the main plot. Social Links are the very reason the main character of Persona 3's death has any sort of meaning. It's what gives his messianic symbolism any meaning. Social Links aren't detached from the plot, because the game's theme is about personal growth. Being able to see that reveals the value in what Social Links do for the story. If you say there's no bearing on the main plot of the game, you're actually ignoring a huge part of the game's message. Story/Mechanics are intrinsic for this very reason. They are not "indistinguishable" unless you choose to ignore this very fact. Social Links give the game meaning, they have mechanical bonuses, but it's beyond a superficial "is this related to the plot" mechanic. It's related to your character, it's related to YOU. It's not at all separate when the games are inevitably about your character dying for everyone else or growing and learning about himself along with some good friends. Pierce posted:That's where you are coming across as pretentious. You are basing your judgment on this thread rather than the system. Several posts back there's plenty of justification as to why things like a Social Link not acknowledging Mitsuru's father's death doesn't matter. The game, its THEME, isn't about those characters, so those flaws are negligible. I'm not being pretentious because I've presented, along with a post that wasn't mine that was actually so much more thorough, why it's not a plot driven game, and how Social Links turn the exploitative nature of "Visual Novel Decisions" on their head. If I'm explaining the game's themes, that's a telling sign of why I said what I did. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 23:31
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The fate system would do that just as well, they really aren't that different. Unless you think it has more meaning because you don't have to do it, but you also don't have to get everyone to fate rank 5 either.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:36
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Cityinthesea posted:The fate system would do that just as well, they really aren't that different. Unless you think it has more meaning because you don't have to do it, but you also don't have to get everyone to fate rank 5 either. Don't just tell me it would then, explain how. You're still ignoring much of what was said that brought us here, and that's very annoying. It has everything to do with assuming things that are wrong about what Persona 3/4 is saying. If you think it would do that, you have a bit of work ahead of you.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:37
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Corrosion posted:Words Agreed, but the problem is that it seems very weird for the various characters not to mention the critical, life changing things that just happened to them. I get it, it's not really relevant per see, but it make the character seems lifeless, rather than, well, characters.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:38
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There's no real difference between the FATE system and Social Links other than that in DS2 you can only level up with party members. They both work well but neither game should really adapt the other because Social Links wouldn't work in the setting of Devil Survivor and the FATE system wouldn't work in a dating sim where you frequently interact with people who aren't in your party. Also, the whole "won't mention life changing events" thing was an issue in Persona 3. This was fixed in Persona 4 by not letting you start party member social links until they had joined your party, and some events are different after Nanako is kidnapped.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:40
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Iceclaw posted:Agreed, but the problem is that it seems very weird for the various characters not to mention the critical, life changing things that just happened to them. I get it, it's not really relevant per see, but it make the character seems lifeless, rather than, well, characters. I think that's negligible, and it really is, when you can still define character motivations and development. I acknowledged, way back believe it or not, that while this kind of detail is a flaw, it's very minor. Social Links aren't perfect, but the issues I've brought up about this overlap have been about whether the Fate System would allot for plot changes, scenario changes... Things that would need to be different or added on or changed. I'm saying that Personas 3 and 4 tell a successful story, I've said why, and I've said that implementing Fate System isn't an improvement, it's a drastic change in narrative. Whether or not it's better, my contention that it isn't better has been presented through things like how Devil Survivor 2's story isn't nearly as deep and that's a huge bearing as to why they were able to use it in the first place. ----- Edit: I'd say Jonjon's post is pretty spot on. Though I think admitting that those systems wouldn't work when swapped kind of says they're actually different. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 23:43
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Corrosion posted:Several posts back there's plenty of justification as to why things like a Social Link not acknowledging Mitsuru's father's death doesn't matter. The game, its THEME, isn't about those characters, so those flaws are negligible. I'm not being pretentious because I've presented, along with a post that wasn't mine that was actually so much more thorough, why it's not a plot driven game, and how Social Links turn the exploitative nature of "Visual Novel Decisions" on their head. If I'm explaining the game's themes, that's a telling sign of why I said what I did. I get it, you read for theme. However the medium could be improved.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:48
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Pierce posted:However the medium could be improved. I don't disagree! But I don't agree that Fate System is the way, I actually thought "Better writing" was a better fix from Persona 3 to Persona 4, at least regarding characters. And I can't just ignore how jonjonaug just showed how being specific avoids being me/  Frankly, I think a better fix is "Please don't use Social Links again."
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Apr 26, 2012 23:51
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Corrosion posted:I don't disagree! But I don't agree that Fate System is the way, I actually thought "Better writing" was a better fix from Persona 3 to Persona 4, at least regarding characters. And I can't just ignore how jonjonaug just showed how being specific avoids being me/ quote:Frankly, I think a better fix is "Please don't use Social Links again." I agree with this completely.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:52
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They probably will though. All I really want is for them to impact the story in some meaningful way at the very least.
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Apr 26, 2012 23:54
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