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WickedIcon posted:He still murdered his own father as soon as he got the faintest inkling bad poo poo was happening. Cold blood may be an overstatement - it looked more like his dad pressed his buttons in exactly the wrong way, and he snapped.
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May 8, 2012 19:22
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I kinda thought killing his dad was more him lashing out because of suddenly losing the girl he had a crush on. I didn't get a cold-blooded killer vibe at all, so much as a child reacting to a situation badly. Like, I think if his dad hadn't been all BEEP BOOP WELP CALCULATED RISK, LET'S TRY AGAIN SOMEWHERE ELSE and had shown some compassion for his son, he wouldn't have gone through with it. Then again, if he were that kind of person, he wouldn't be a good magus and wouldn't be attempting monstrous experiments, but yeah.
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May 8, 2012 19:22
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The point is more that Kiritsugu decided that, because people died due to him not killing Shirley at the right time, he would never hesitate again, no matter the target. This will go to even more heartwarming territory later.
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May 8, 2012 19:32
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AnacondaHL posted:By waffling around and doing everything he wasn't supposed to do? Gets told to stay put, then doesn't. Gets told to kill her to stop the progression of zombie infestation, and doesn't. Then maybe decides he's not so badass and just sits around basically waiting to be attacked. Then decides that he should kill his dad because of revenge or some poo poo? More like he's a stupid kid and can't come to terms with his feelings for the girl and the guilt of what consequences occurred from his actions. -His father was in a rather remote location despite having a sealing designation, which means he would be hunted. -His experimentation would eventually involves using human as test subjects to become dead apostles. -Dead Apostles by their nature requires them to drain living things to survive. -Kiritsugu realized his failure to just kill one person resulted in the destruction of the village, if his father's research continues, there will eventually be human test subjects and a possible incident could occur again. -Because he's haunted by what he failed to do for Shirley, he decided he needs to kill his father to stop it all. Kiritsugu blamed himself for not killing Shirley that day, because if he had done so his village wouldn't have been destroyed. That all the villagers were slaughtered because of that one person he could not kill, because he was too scared to even think about the possibility. Its because of that that convinced him of the importance of killing one to save many and he pretty much resolved to never hesitate in making that kind of decision again. ""I suppose you can say that Kiritsugu was born peculiar. There were people who were known as natural born soldiers, because they can execute orders and objectives regardless of their sentiments and emotions behind it. He was one such natural -- and even though he felt every bit of pain and sadness (in the form of absolute emptiness; the LN described that he felt as if his soul were being sucked out), his body had reacted to what's 'the right thing to do'. He killed his own father. He had asked clearly whether his father was going to continue the research, and he said yes. His father had shown absolutely no remorse but only anger and sadness that for his failure, and obviously intent to continue it. And yes, his father loved him dearly, and him vice versa."" Randomzx fucked around with this message at 21:28 on May 8, 2012 |
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May 8, 2012 21:26
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Randomzx posted:-His father was in a rather remote location despite having a sealing designation, which means he would be hunted. Yea, I get all of that. The ends of what he did was reasonable, the means weren't. Yes, we're watching how he becomes a cold motherfucker, but everything happened because he was a stupid kid that couldn't handle any situation properly.
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May 8, 2012 22:15
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AnacondaHL posted:Yea, I get all of that. The ends of what he did was reasonable, the means weren't. Yes, we're watching how he becomes a cold motherfucker, but everything happened because he was a stupid kid that couldn't handle any situation properly. The means were quite reasonable, and he handled the final situation quite properly. I think it's the first time I've felt this series may have a clear protagonist.
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May 8, 2012 22:42
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Onomarchus posted:The means were quite reasonable, and he handled the final situation quite properly. I think it's the first time I've felt this series may have a clear protagonist. If you want a clear protagonist, you best look to Waver or Irisviel. Kiritsugu as shown is a huge piece of poo poo who puts his own idealized goal above all, to the point of using it to rationalize completely ignoring a master and servant on a murder spree of young children (and even their using of those children as weapons). He had Maiya kill a crippled man and his hobbled wife after the former of those completed his side of a mutual agreement and eliminated himself from the War and was no longer any sort of threat. He even outright laments evacuating Kayneth's hotel before he blows the place up. There's really nothing about Kiritsugu that defines him as a protagonist outside of being associated with Saber and Irisviel, two people that are actually decent. Even Kiritsugu's aware of what a piece of poo poo he is going by the breakdown he had with Iri early in the season.
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May 8, 2012 23:57
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There's no stipulation or rule that a protagonist has a be a "good guy". Kiritsugu is undeniably one of the protagonists of Zero.
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May 9, 2012 00:15
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A protagonist does have to inspire empathy toward him or her with the audience, which is why he isn't one. There is nothing to empathize with in Kiritsugu's character, and it's precisely because he's such an awful person. This attempt to make that possible via flashback is actually pretty laughable because it's pretty shittily written and makes a pretty big and hilarious philosophical assumption of the audience in it's attempt to do so, but that's not something I really feel like going into because I watch this to see Alexander the Great and Girl King Arthur in fights, not because I think Gen is a good writer or because I like more than a handful of the characters. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 00:38 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 00:34
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Oh Snapple! posted:A protagonist does have to inspire empathy toward him or her with the audience, which is why he isn't one. There is nothing to empathize with in Kiritsugu's character, and it's precisely because he's such an awful person. Maybe you don't but I do. Different people respond differently after all. It's a pretty big and hilarious assumption that because you feel he doesn't for XYZ reason, Kiritsugu doesn't work for others. But even if Kiritsugu didn't, he can still be a protagonist all the same. It may not be the usual standard protagonist but it can still be done. ChronoReverse fucked around with this message at 00:47 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 00:43
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Lord knows that the POINT can't be that Kiritsugu is a twisted person who makes himself and others miserable for a warped ideal, that'd be crazy. Also a protagonist is merely a central figure who drives the story, neither empathy nor morality are at all required.
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May 9, 2012 00:56
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Kiritsugu is willing to do all this stuff because he believes that the reward from his wish from the Grail will balance it all out in the end.
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May 9, 2012 01:24
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Oh Snapple! posted:
You're entitled to your opinion and everything, but I don't get why people keep saying these flashback episodes are here to clumsily and far-to-lately illicit this "missing" sympathy for our hero. I keep seeing people say that all over the internet and I think its bullshit. This is not loving Naruto we're talking about here. This flashback (in the novels at least) happened right after Saber calls Kiritsugu out for being a douche and wondering what happened to him in his past to make him what he is. Its the answer to her statement. You can say that its there to blatantly and ham-fistedly tell the audience what to think and how to feel about this character, but I think that's short-changing the author. There is more going on than I SUFFERED SUCH A TRAGIC EVENT AND MY FATHER WAS EVIL, A BLOO BLOO. These flashbacks are here to encourage you to form your own conclusions about Kiritsugu, his methods, and his ideals. Not to spoonfeed you from the Instant Sad Jar.
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May 9, 2012 01:51
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Sanguinia posted:You're entitled to your opinion and everything, but I don't get why people keep saying these flashback episodes are here to clumsily and far-to-lately illicit this "missing" sympathy for our hero. I keep seeing people say that all over the internet and I think its bullshit. This is not loving Naruto we're talking about here. Actually, I find that these flashbacks are more important for other narrative reasons that I can't explain right now due to spoilers. I do agree that these episodes aren't intended to make Kiritsugu suddenly sympathetic, since if they had intended to do that with these flashbacks they would've been placed before episode 16.
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May 9, 2012 01:58
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Oh Snapple! posted:A protagonist does have to inspire empathy toward him or her with the audience, which is why he isn't one. There is nothing to empathize with in Kiritsugu's character, and it's precisely because he's such an awful person. Merriam-Webster disagrees with you. definition of protagonist posted:Definition of PROTAGONIST Kiritsugu is actually both, given his whole superhero obsession. I assume you've never read anything by Lord Byron or any of the Romantic authors who ripped him off because each and every one of them are unsympathetic assholes to a man. Or Humbert Humbert's pedophile rear end; even though he's staunchly unlikable, he is the de facto protagonist of Lolita. A protagonist doesn't have to be likable, he or she just has to be the focus character. So you're right in saying Kiritsugu a poo poo, but you're wrong on this one.
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May 9, 2012 02:12
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I actually still empathize with Kiritsugu. He's a huge rear end in a top hat, but he's doing what he thinks is necessary for a better world, and the only person he's really badly hosed over is frankly just as big of an rear end in a top hat if not bigger, and without the sympathetic mindset.
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May 9, 2012 02:30
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Sanguinia posted:You're entitled to your opinion and everything, but I don't get why people keep saying these flashback episodes are here to clumsily and far-to-lately illicit this "missing" sympathy for our hero. I keep seeing people say that all over the internet and I think its bullshit. This is not loving Naruto we're talking about here. My problem with the flashback, and I'm probably putting tags up early on this, is that it is framed in a very, very specific way that I feel is very obviously meant to make the audience go "Huh, I guess Kiritsugu's attitude is pretty justified then!", as if Kiritsugu's outlook is the only possible conclusion to be had. What isn't touched on is the possibility or reality that Kiritsugu did absolutely nothing wrong in his decision to not murder his friend that he also had a crush on, while she is sitting there talking to him, in a situation that was absolutely beyond his comprehension at the moment in his status as an adolescent. The real tragedy at the end of the episode isn't Kiritsugu's killing of his father, it's his decision that he did something wrong. But this is not presented or touched upon, and I have extreme doubts that this will happen or that Kiritsugu will be called out on it. The flashback frustrates me because it offers no actual challenge to the person Kiritsugu ends up being and simply seeks to provide justification for it, and nothing else, which is why I feel it's pretty shittily written. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 02:37 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 02:34
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Oh Snapple! posted:The real tragedy at the end of the episode isn't Kiritsugu's killing of his father, it's his decision that he did something wrong. But this is not presented or touched upon, and I have extreme doubts that this will happen or that Kiritsugu will be called out on it. Because the series is assuming you're not an idiot and that you can pick up on that without it being shoved in your face.
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May 9, 2012 02:38
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Oh Snapple! posted:My problem with the flashback, and I'm probably putting tags up early on this, is that it is framed in a very, very specific way that I feel is very obviously meant to make the audience go "Huh, I guess Kiritsugu's attitude is pretty justified then!", as if Kiritsugu's outlook is the only possible conclusion to be had. What isn't touched on is the possibility or reality that Kiritsugu did absolutely nothing wrong in his decision to not murder his friend that he also had a crush on, while she is sitting there talking to him, in a situation that was absolutely beyond his comprehension at the moment in his status as an adolescent. The real tragedy at the end of the episode isn't Kiritsugu's killing of his father, it's his decision that he did something wrong. But this is not presented or touched upon, and I have extreme doubts that this will happen or that Kiritsugu will be called out on it. The flashback frustrates me because it offers no actual challenge to the person Kiritsugu ends up being and simply seeks to provide justification for it, and nothing else, which is why I feel it's pretty shittily written. What you feel it's trying to say doesn't matter, only what it's actually trying to say. What it IS actually saying is, in fact, the very alternative you present.
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May 9, 2012 02:46
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Oh Snapple! posted:The real tragedy at the end of the episode isn't Kiritsugu's killing of his father, it's his decision that he did something wrong. But this is not presented or touched upon, and I have extreme doubts that this will happen or that Kiritsugu will be called out on it. This is a story by Urobuchi. You should know better than to think this by now. EDIT: And if I remember correctly, he does get called out on it the minute after. InsaneZero fucked around with this message at 02:56 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 02:50
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The entire purpose of Fate, both Stay Night and Zero, is about how hosed-up and wrong Kiritsugu's ideals are. Fate/Stay Night spent three entire routes constructing and deconstructing those ideals. Shirou starts off as broken human being because he follows those ideals, but when he finally abandons them, he becomes a person that finally accepts personal happiness and lives a normal life with the people he loves. The point of Zero is to provide contrast to this by showing what a failure Kiritsugu is, and to add how fortunate Shirou is that he escaped those poisonous ideals. e: To add to the contrast, Shirou had a traumatic event happen to him as a child but was saved from it and he was able to live a normal, happy life. Kiritsugu was saved from a traumatic event and he chose to become broken and empty. The flashback isn't meant to garner sympathy or justify his actions, but rather to contribute to what a failure of a person Kiritsugu is. Marin Karin fucked around with this message at 03:38 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 02:58
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Kiritsugu is literally rusty venture, it all makes sense now!
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May 9, 2012 03:39
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WickedIcon posted:Because the series is assuming you're not an idiot and that you can pick up on that without it being shoved in your face. Then you're attributing a subtlety that frankly doesn't exist. There is nothing about how that flashback is framed that even tries to purvey this, and that's an outright failure of the show. It's not a matter of spoonfeeding, it's a matter of something just flatout not being there. Rodyle posted:What you feel it's trying to say doesn't matter, only what it's actually trying to say. What it IS actually saying is, in fact, the very alternative you present. I think you're misunderstanding me. My issue is one of framing: While the intent could certainly exist to the author, I feel the flashback is framed in such a way that such an intent is outright not present. Maybe it's better presented in the novel, but in the show itself? It feels more like something that happens to be there despite being the most important part. InsaneZero posted:This is a story by Urobuchi. You should know better than to think this by now. He gets called out on the need for him to be the one to kill his father, not his decision that he did something wrong in not killing his friend. That's honestly all I'm going to say on the matter. I feel the flashback completely failed to put forth the actual tragedy of the episode, whether it be by the lack of intent to do so or by the failure to express that intent. It's just not particularly well done in my eyes, and it doesn't help that I don't care for Urobuchi's schtick to begin with. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 04:12 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 04:08
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Oh Snapple! posted:That's honestly all I'm going to say on the matter. I feel the flashback completely failed to put forth the actual tragedy of the episode, whether it be by the lack of intent to do so or by the failure to express that intent. It's just not particularly well done in my eyes, and it doesn't help that I don't care for Urobuchi's schtick to begin with. Well sir, I can't say I completely agree with your interpretation and viewpoint, but you've put yourself forth in a fairly elegant and persuasive manner despite the counterpoint being on the vitriolic side. Good show.  If there's one thing I like about the Type-Moon-verse is that it gets people talking. Yeah, it's not a literary smorgasbord, it indulges in dumb ideas and shounen cliche and more gross/creepy stuff than it needs to, but its not total pablam either. There's enough meat on the bone for a thoughtful conversation, even if its just the conversation about how maybe its not as deep as you might think it is. I think its one of those things that hits the sweet spot between mass/popular appeal and intellectualism perfectly, and that's one of the factors in why its various shows/mangas/OVAs/movies clawed their way out of the Eroge ghetto to become such a sensation.
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May 9, 2012 04:33
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MadRhetoric posted:Merriam-Webster disagrees with you. How could you hate Humbert Humbert? He's just so magnificently arrogant about being a pedophile. That would be like hating Doctor Doom or Iago.
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May 9, 2012 04:47
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Having just finished episode 5 I'm sad to see theres only 13 episodes in total. At least there is a season two of fate/zero, right?
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May 9, 2012 04:59
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Kneel Before Zog posted:Having just finished episode 5 I'm sad to see theres only 13 episodes in total. At least there is a season two of fate/zero, right? Yeah, we're five episode into season 2 at the moment. The second season will be 12 episodes. Season 2 is WAY better than the first season, by the way.  VVV nerds. Marin Karin fucked around with this message at 05:12 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 05:02
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Soylentbits posted:How could you hate Humbert Humbert? He's just so magnificently arrogant about being a pedophile. That would be like hating Doctor Doom or Iago. "RICHAAAARDS, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. RICH-AAAA-RDS: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the metal faceplate." ____/ 
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May 9, 2012 05:07
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Soylentbits posted:How could you hate Humbert Humbert? He's just so magnificently arrogant about being a pedophile. That would be like hating Doctor Doom or Iago. Pedophilia is beneath Doom. Do not sully his name by including that rabble with him.
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May 9, 2012 05:08
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Silver2195 posted:Something disturbing I've realized: What it is it with Nasu and rape? I think literally every villain in Fate/Stay Night except Kirei is a rapist. Oh Snapple! posted:It's instantly ~DARK AND GRITTY~ without requiring any actual thought be put into it. DerLeo posted:Just wait till you get to Tsukihime, the main character is also a rapist. Jefepato posted:If you want to get technical, Caster isn't literally a rapist although she does plenty of horrible and sexualized things. MadRhetoric posted:The answer is that Type-Moon VNs pull double duty as porn. The porn's in there because of weird ideas about the doujin scene. But yeah, this conversation never ends well so let's nip it in the bud. That said Fate/Zero has the threat of rape at the very least and Kara no Kyokai had rape and neither were adults-only so it's probably fair to say that rape exists to make it ~dark and gritty~ and not just to provide an excuse for porn.
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May 9, 2012 06:07
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Cardboard Box A posted:That said Fate/Zero has the threat of rape at the very least and Kara no Kyokai had rape and neither were adults-only so it's probably fair to say that rape exists to make it ~dark and gritty~ and not just to provide an excuse for porn. I'd say Zero pointedly avoids it, if anything. If it hadn't been for this thread I wouldn't have known what Crest Worms did, and while Caster and Ryonosuke do a lot of vile and disgusting things, they never rape anyone. There was one scene with Gilgamesh being creepy towards Saber (which was probably only there to be consistent with Stay Night), but that's about it.
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May 9, 2012 07:04
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Oh Snapple! posted:My problem with the flashback, and I'm probably putting tags up early on this, is that it is framed in a very, very specific way that I feel is very obviously meant to make the audience go "Huh, I guess Kiritsugu's attitude is pretty justified then!", as if Kiritsugu's outlook is the only possible conclusion to be had. What isn't touched on is the possibility or reality that Kiritsugu did absolutely nothing wrong in his decision to not murder his friend that he also had a crush on, while she is sitting there talking to him, in a situation that was absolutely beyond his comprehension at the moment in his status as an adolescent. The real tragedy at the end of the episode isn't Kiritsugu's killing of his father, it's his decision that he did something wrong. But this is not presented or touched upon, and I have extreme doubts that this will happen or that Kiritsugu will be called out on it. The flashback frustrates me because it offers no actual challenge to the person Kiritsugu ends up being and simply seeks to provide justification for it, and nothing else, which is why I feel it's pretty shittily written. Actually, I think that his decision not to murder his friend was right (at the time) because of the limited information he had, and his decision to murder his father once he had all the information was right too. Right all around; protagonisitc. I don't see where he openly decided he did something wrong (presumably by not killing Shirley), but I must admit that watching the episode I felt this was basically implied, though of course only after he got information he didn't have at that time. I may easily have missed or forgotten something there. Also, I find it practically irresistible to point out the interesting fact that we haven't seen Shirley get killed yet; I figure it could go either way on her being dead, i.e. entirely for-real-dead there. (No, book people, or anyone actually, don't spoil anything about that please.) I meant that I actively liked young Kiritsugu as a protagonist, not necessarily "present-day" Kiritsugu. He (present-day one) seems to be trying to immanantize the eschaton. I am interested to see what his intended wish is--no spoiling this for me anyone please--and while I am drawn to the idea that it's to wish the human race out of existence, it seems to be more like ending war or bloodshed. Something to look forward to finding out. Anyway, my problem with him is not that he doesn't have enough hope for the world but precisely that has too much (though of course when the narrative framework includes heaping helpings of magic it makes sense that even a rational cynic would be tempted by by and have hope in crazy magical schemes). The fun in Kiritsugu (some of it at least), as I've probably tipped my hand on, is projecting not only myself on him (potentially) but also George Carlin. There was this one point in episode 16 (among other good ones) with Saber talking to him where this positively bled off the screen. After that episode I considered a post with just this quote. George Carlin posted:Oh, they say if you scratch a cynic you’ll find a disappointed idealist, and I would admit that somewhere underneath all of this there’s a little flicker of a flame of idealism that would love to see it all change, but it can’t. OK, I'm going to pose a question for discussion I'm surprised people didn't address here in the past two weeks: why did Kiritsugu plan to have Kayneth and Sola-Ui killed (effectively killing them by proxy) after their Servant was dead? I thought then he did it out of habit and routine, and I still think that. However, now I think it's also (or, rather, as part of his habit) because he found them evil and detestable. (There are plenty of theoretical reasons one might wish to kill a Master after the Servant is gone, but the story--almost by design it seems--has mostly removed those considerations in this case largely due to Kayneth and Sola-Ui being physically and/or magically disabled.) I'd love to hear alternatives provided they don't spoil too much something still ahead. I suppose he might have been scared of a firearm attack method like the one Kayneth recently adopted since he would be bound by magical contract not to defend himself. Onomarchus fucked around with this message at 07:17 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 07:11
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Onomarchus posted:OK, I'm going to pose a question for discussion I'm surprised people didn't address here in the past two weeks: why did Kiritsugu plan to have Kayneth and Sola-Ui killed (effectively killing them by proxy) after their Servant was dead? I thought then he did it out of habit and routine, and I still think that. Edit: I think his approach towards his noble goal seems to be purely the violent removal of 'bad' people. He doesn't seem to be acting to protect anyone or anything. He just seems to punish the guilty and then leave the innocent to fend for themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if his grail wish is for a bomb that only kills badguys, axe cop style. It seems a simplistic approach. Squidster fucked around with this message at 07:51 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 07:23
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It's probably worth noting that Kiritsugu's ideal is to save people, and, because that ideal just doesn't hold up in the real world, he does this in the most rational way possible. The metaphor always used is that if you had to kill one person to save ten people, it's worth the trade. So Kiritsugu killing Kayneth and Sola-Ui? He probably did it because they were mages. Nasuverse mages, to be specific. Sure they were harmless at that point, but give them some time and they'll come running back for revenge using the power of baby corpses or something horrific like that. Kayneth's the heir of a super esteemed family, he can do poo poo like that if he really wants.
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May 9, 2012 08:09
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Cardboard Box A posted:Well the answer to that question is do the non-adults-only versions still have rape or threats of rape? Because if they do then that answers that theoretical. Well, I know that Realta Nua, the non-adult PS2 port of the original F/SN not only has the sex scenes removed, but they also changed the Crest Worms to look less obviously phallic. I couldn't tell you about the actual text within.
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May 9, 2012 08:47
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If Master A has his Servant A killed, and Master B is killed leaving Servant B behind, there is a good chance Master A and Servant B will pair up. This is basically all the motivation Kiritsugu needs.
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May 9, 2012 09:04
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Except Kayneth and Sola have no command spells and no real ability to cast magic. They no longer have any rights as masters.
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May 9, 2012 09:10
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Lestaki posted:Except Kayneth and Sola have no command spells and no real ability to cast magic. They no longer have any rights as masters. The man is thorough, you gotta admit.
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May 9, 2012 09:12
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You don't need the ability to cast magic to be a Master. Look at Ryuunosuke.
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May 9, 2012 09:48
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Lestaki posted:Except Kayneth and Sola have no command spells and no real ability to cast magic. They no longer have any rights as masters. Command spells aren't tied to the summoner, but the contract between the servant and master. As long as both the servant and the potential master have a means to form that contract, both Sola and Kayneth actually could, become masters of a different servant. And as mentioned above, someone with no magical ability can form this contract, and a better example would be the relationship between FSN Caster and her master, seeing as her whole character revolves around having killed her initial summoner and forming a pact with Kozuki, who she happened to find just before she faded away.
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May 9, 2012 12:15
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