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Alright, so I picked up Red Bear and a box of T-34/85's today. I think it's the old box because it was about 13 dollars less than what the box on the flames of war site lists and the box contents are different. I've been looking through the lists and I'm a bit overwhelmed. Is there anywhere I can find a good run down on how to make a balanced list? For instance, how important are AA guns vs. actual air support? Are the T-34/85s going to have enough stopping power to bring down the heavier German tanks or do I need to grab some assault guns?
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May 8, 2012 01:24
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humannature posted:Alright, so I picked up Red Bear and a box of T-34/85's today. I think it's the old box because it was about 13 dollars less than what the box on the flames of war site lists and the box contents are different. I've been looking through the lists and I'm a bit overwhelmed. Is there anywhere I can find a good run down on how to make a balanced list? For instance, how important are AA guns vs. actual air support? Are the T-34/85s going to have enough stopping power to bring down the heavier German tanks or do I need to grab some assault guns? Congratulations! You've picked the Soviet list least likely to smack your wallet around, well, the start of one, anyway. T-34/85s can be deployed in two ways, basically, you either take them as five tanks as part of a 10-tank T-34/76 platoon, or you can take then as all 85s in a 10-tank platoon. The all 85 list is actually more economical points-wise. T-34/85s are AT12 which is adequate against anything short of Panthers and King Tigers. If you have 20 of them, which you probably will in an actual tank company, you could probably get away without heavy AT. If you're not, you'll probably want to get SU-100s or ISU-122s, depending on how much you want to shell out. In a typical list, the absolute minimum is basically tanks and some kind of recon. Now, with the Soviets you have the unique ability to have enough tanks to assault effectively, especially if you pay for tank escorts, but you may want some infantry to help out in assaults. The Soviets also have the best medium assault gun in the game for its price, the plain old SU-122 which will demolish any infantry it hits with its main gun. Heavy mortars are also a good value because they range in better than others, have solid FP, and 6 guns gives you re-rolls to hit on a normal template, very helpful for trained guns. Air support got better, and sometimes when you have an odd platoon situation, you'll want to take a cheap AA platoon to make it even, since being at an even number of platoons makes your company more resilient, as well as helping you in missions with reserves. Soviet air support is rather pricey because they decided to give you all the options in one plane, though.
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May 8, 2012 03:09
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In a Tank list I think its critical to have some way of seeing off Airpower. AA trucks are a good bet because they are also useful for pinning infantry if there are no planes to shoot at. Airpower would also be a good idea if the German players around you are taking a lot of big cats, as a lot of big cats leaves very little room for AA in their lists.
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May 8, 2012 03:33
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humannature posted:Alright, so I picked up Red Bear and a box of T-34/85's today. I think it's the old box because it was about 13 dollars less than what the box on the flames of war site lists and the box contents are different. I've been looking through the lists and I'm a bit overwhelmed. Is there anywhere I can find a good run down on how to make a balanced list? For instance, how important are AA guns vs. actual air support? Are the T-34/85s going to have enough stopping power to bring down the heavier German tanks or do I need to grab some assault guns? What everyone else said, plus, if you're only going to be playing locally, you'll probably get an idea of what tactics your fellow players prefer, and what can help against that. With LW armor, any chance that you might go up against enemy armor, you want to bring something with AT13 or 14, even if it is just one unit. Airpower works, too, if you don't want to be attacking enemy armor head on. Personally I'd take some kind of TD or assault gun to support your T34s in case you run up against anything particularly nasty. Also, be willing to be flexible in how and what you deploy. Running the same list all the time makes you predictable. If I know what you're bringing because you've run the same list 5 weeks in a row, even my Bersalegari will be able to stop you. Granted, trenches and fortified companies have become popular at my LGS and I'm having the devil's time trying to figure a way to dig them out. Most of my opponents use the LW heavy tanks sparingly, so I can ignore them if I can't kill them, but it's hard to take objectives/pin infantry/assault when I need 6's to shoot anything.
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May 8, 2012 04:07
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Thanks for the advice! How big a difference is confident vs. fearless going to be? I'm not sure if I should go for guards or just red army. I know I've got my compulsory stuff, HQ tank, 2 tank units of at least 5 tanks, but after that I should grab some AA, some recon, and maybe some infantry? Are tank riders any good?
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May 8, 2012 05:03
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Here is a sample army: Guards Tank Battallion: PG 66 Red bear Confident Trained HQ (1xT34/85) 80 Gvardeyskiy Tankovy Company (5xT34/85) 390 Gvardeyskiy Tankovy Company (5xT34/85) 390 Spetnaz (1 Squad) 100 960 Gives you the core of a T34/85 company. The Spetnaz are recon troops but are also SMG troops and are rated Fearless Veteran. They scout out likely ambush points and can be used to assault AT gun platoons which would chew up your T34/85s in defensive fire. I would then see how you like the force. Common items to bulk out the list: More T34/85s. Two Companies of 8 is typical. Air support (they can pin infantry and gun teams, act as an AA unit and crack high armour tanks with their rockets). AT units. There are several good high AT units. SU-100s are an option, IS2s are an option if you like big tanks so are sappers if you like some more infantry. It all depends on what models you like and what playstyle suits. To save on models to buy you can increase your Morale to Fearless. You have the Auto attack rule so you get to learn how to but the pressure on and take objectives to win.
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May 8, 2012 12:24
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humannature posted:Thanks for the advice! How big a difference is confident vs. fearless going to be? I'm not sure if I should go for guards or just red army. I know I've got my compulsory stuff, HQ tank, 2 tank units of at least 5 tanks, but after that I should grab some AA, some recon, and maybe some infantry? Are tank riders any good? Tank riders are basically a lower stand-count SMG infantry company, if you need something with which to assault. You can upgrade your tanks with tankodesantniki to get extra hits for your assaults if you want to, though it's a pricey upgrade at 10 points a tank. You can choose between armored car recon and spetznaz, depending on whether you want more, faster lightly armored vehicles or a low stand-count recon troop that can infiltrate your tanks in closer. Infiltrating is a somewhat risky move, but it can really affect your opponent's deployment with the threat. I would suggest, if you're looking to expand to a 1500 tank battalion, that you look to max out your tank companies at 10 vehicles, since that's the strength of Soviet tanks and you'll make the best use of your bulk discount in points. Also, for heavy AT purposes, all of your options are rather hit-or-miss. Air power has a tendency to not come in when you need it, and the IS-2, SU-100, and ISU-122 all have ROF 1 so you're really dependent on the dice love. They're more threat than reality for opposing tanks, but you still need them. Unlike the Americans and Brits, you can't rely on mid-tier AT13/14 to help. If you're looking to go in another direction, though, there are a lot of formations in Red Bear that can use tanks in support, from Rota Razvedki if you want low model-count mechanized infantry to motostrelkovy if you want to have virtually anything you might want, with blob infantry. The Soviet tanks are relatively self-sufficient in their large companies so they can go with anything, and almost every list can take them.
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May 8, 2012 12:45
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My copy of Maurice and its playing cards arrived on Saturday and after having a good read through Im very excited by it. Ive never been into 18th Century warfare but it makes it all look very appealing http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/maurice/ quote:You were twelve years old when your father secured a place for you in a regiment, and since that day you have dreamed of standing before the king to receive command of one of the armies on the frontier. The rules look very straight forward and fast play and the card system is pretty clever, like a weird cross between Black Powder and Memoir44/Command and Colours. Its basically a card driven order system with the opportunity to use cards out of sequence a bit like Magic Instants cards to screw your opponent over or modify your forces attack qualities etc. Theres also event cards you can play to simulate command and communication problems etc all done with a nice slightly tongue in cheek style (any wargame that allows you to inflict gout on a commander is alright by me!). The other side of the game is the fantastic career/campaign system that allows you to either use real life nations that were involved in such conflicts as the 7 Years War or American War of Independence or just invent your own tiny 18th kingdoms and states and duke it out with friends. Imagi-nations as this is called is not a new idea, but the system for creating armies in the rules makes it easy even for the least imaginative of us. the nice thing about it is the point of the campaign system isnt to necessarily have the best army and kill everyone else, but its to create the most legendary General by using its experience system. Its essentially role play(lite)ing your General through a series of wars developing his abilities and his reputation to become the most famous general of the campaign. Its done really well in a fun way, taking court politics into account as well as your prowess on the battlefield. Im looking forward to trying out the campaign system at some point, but later on today I will demoing the rules in aplaytest with some friends. No pics I am afraid as we havent got any suitable forces so will be using counters! I will post later about how it went though.
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May 8, 2012 13:17
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This looks amazing and I wish to play it.
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May 8, 2012 20:54
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Ok I've looked through Red Bear and EasyArmy.com and made up a couple lists I was thinking of running. Shooting for 1500 points. Guards Tank Battalion (Guards) Fearless/Trained HQ: T-34/85 w/cupola Company 1: 8 T-34/85s with Cupolas Company 2: 8 T-34/85s with Cupolas Company 3: 3 DShK AA trucks Company 4: 3 BA-64 armored cars for recon The second list idea was to drop 2 T-34/85s, 1 from each group, and upgrade to ZSU M17s for AA and add 2 more armored cars. Then, as I pick up more models, I can try out some new things. Maybe run them as Red Army instead of guards because I'm not sure how worthwhile fearless is vs. confident. What do you guys think?
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May 11, 2012 01:01
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I would keep it at 8 T-34's per platoons. You don't want to skimp on your Combat Platoons but you can on things like Support. Your list is solid in my opinion, and a good one to start with. My Hungrain Turan company follows a similar idea but with shitter Tanks. HQ Panther with the Hero 2x Panther A 5x Turan I 5x Turan I 5x Toldi IIa (recon) Limited Air Support Stuka (Anti-tank and also anti Aircraft) I'm taking this to a tourney next month and I think I'll actually do well with it as the majority of players around here are Infantry guys (including myself heh).
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May 11, 2012 01:45
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Fearless is not that important with tanks, honestly. You do want to use a big, even number with your tankovy companies. With no infantry, you're going to be relying on them to carry your assaults home.
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May 11, 2012 02:48
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So, our local crowd is getting into FoW, and I'm going to follow. I want to play Soviets so I can speak in a bad Russian accent the whole game, plus they get some stupidly big nasty guns and lots of artillery. But I can't decide what to collect. I like some of the tanks, but I don't really want to run a tank company, thinking something a little more combined arms. The Rota Razvedki motorized recon unit kinda caught my eye as being kinda cool, since as I understand it recon units can run away when shot at. On the other hand, I don't want to buy something that's going to be really awkward to learn to play. Any tips on cool Soviet lists?
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May 11, 2012 02:57
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The Gate posted:So, our local crowd is getting into FoW, and I'm going to follow. I want to play Soviets so I can speak in a bad Russian accent the whole game, plus they get some stupidly big nasty guns and lots of artillery. But I can't decide what to collect. I like some of the tanks, but I don't really want to run a tank company, thinking something a little more combined arms. The Rota Razvedki motorized recon unit kinda caught my eye as being kinda cool, since as I understand it recon units can run away when shot at. On the other hand, I don't want to buy something that's going to be really awkward to learn to play. Any tips on cool Soviet lists? Rota Razvedki is interesting, but you do have to buy a lot of transports if you want them. The razvedki platoons are not recce platoons, unfortunately, but small platoons have an advantage in the new rules with respect to efficiency. You can get virtually anything you want to support Rota, though. The other option for a force that can take almost anything is motostrelk, which takes away the pesky always attack but forces you to take some SMG platoons. Sometimes always attack takes away some uncertainty, though. A lot of guys take forward detachments because it lets you take a tank and cheap tank-rider company as required platoons, but you're forced to take guards support. Do beware, Soviets are kind of expensive to play if you want to make use of their huge companies compared to everyone else.
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May 11, 2012 03:16
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Panzeh posted:Fearless is not that important with tanks, honestly. You do want to use a big, even number with your tankovy companies. With no infantry, you're going to be relying on them to carry your assaults home. I could switch that to red army and get 3 tanks and an extra armored car. Just depends on how my wallet is doing. How do you deal with heavier German armor in a soviet medium tank list? I imagine panthers are going to be a pain.
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May 11, 2012 03:26
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humannature posted:I could switch that to red army and get 3 tanks and an extra armored car. Just depends on how my wallet is doing. How do you deal with heavier German armor in a soviet medium tank list? I imagine panthers are going to be a pain. Panthers pretty much hard counter medium armor in this game, but if you're just up against a few you can always try to get that juicy side armor. Tigers are relatively easy, and not a big deal in LW. You should have enough tanks to survive and get into the flanks of opposing tanks, but it's dicey, and not your list's strength. You'll do well against other medium tank and infantry lists, though. Armored rifles might give you trouble.
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May 11, 2012 04:24
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Panzeh posted:Panthers pretty much hard counter medium armor in this game, but if you're just up against a few you can always try to get that juicy side armor. Tigers are relatively easy, and not a big deal in LW. You should have enough tanks to survive and get into the flanks of opposing tanks, but it's dicey, and not your list's strength. Huh. What's good against Panthers? I think I saw a bunch of the German players running them at the FLGS when they were playing on Sunday.
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May 11, 2012 04:30
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humannature posted:Huh. What's good against Panthers? I think I saw a bunch of the German players running them at the FLGS when they were playing on Sunday. Infantry assaults if they can get through the defensive fire. Artillery and air support. Fast moving tanks who can get to their side armour.
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May 11, 2012 09:43
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Panthers cost as much as heavy tanks but lack their valuable side armor and top armor. They are very inefficient against infantry, and without the numbers to reach a sort of 'critical mass' they can still be swamped and flanked by tanks. The new BGG Americans now even have the firepower to go at them frontally, though easy 8s start to run toward Panther prices.
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May 11, 2012 11:51
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humannature posted:Huh. What's good against Panthers? I think I saw a bunch of the German players running them at the FLGS when they were playing on Sunday. As LintMan stated, arty and men, but if you can field them right, a tank destroyer platoon can be very effective. Not sure what Russians have for TDs, but Americans have the M10s/M36s and the M18s, which can engage Pathers on their front and at range.
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May 11, 2012 14:32
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Much like in real life, the key to running any army in FoW is to mix it up. Don't go all infantry or all tanks. In my Tankovy Batalon I used to run nothing but tanks, but since my friend runs a mech list, I realized I needed SOME infantry to root them out of objectives, and it's worked way better.
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May 11, 2012 14:58
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Russian TDs aren't as good as Americans. You choose between ROF2 AT12 or ROF1 AT15/16, and they all have Hen and Chicks which provides a double penalty for moving and shooting with ROF1 weapons.
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May 11, 2012 15:46
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If someone was looking to get into 15/18mm Napoleonics, what rule-set would be better black power or General De Brigade? Or is there another good set that works well for relative newcomers. Lots of experience in mini gaming, from fantasy, 40k, battletech, warmachine, infinity, epic, etc so learning the rules doesn't worry me, it's more what works best at this scale (we want very large battles) and army building - opponents are like me and like point values associated so we can make fairly even battles, though scenarios that are one sided are still an option.
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May 11, 2012 19:32
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Well Black Powder (with a D, you crazy panther you) is a favorite of everyone in here. Certainly my favorite. But it's written for 28mm, so you may have to convert a little (or not, up to you).
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May 11, 2012 19:34
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Mr.Booger posted:If someone was looking to get into 15/18mm Napoleonics, what rule-set would be better black power or General De Brigade? Or is there another good set that works well for relative newcomers. Our group is still painting up our 6mm nappys, but we're aiming for Lasalle, and maybe trying Black Powder after that. Really, give 6mm and 10mm a look if you want to get into Napoleonics as it's a cool period for that huge army look.
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May 11, 2012 19:37
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I was looking at some of them, Pendraken I think, but their site doesn't tell you how many infantry come when you buy them, which turned me off I want to know what I am buying (which is rare in Napoleonics I am finding) What manufacturers do you guys buy from, and what ones are to be avoided?
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May 11, 2012 19:42
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Mr.Booger posted:I was looking at some of them, Pendraken I think, but their site doesn't tell you how many infantry come when you buy them, which turned me off I want to know what I am buying (which is rare in Napoleonics I am finding) Adler Miniatures and Baccus6mm, both have quite good websites for browsing. Baccus has a mostly mono-pose line, which is ok if you like the more toy soldier look. They're also really fast to paint since they are all mostly the same. Adler has more dynamic and "fun" poses, but are a tad bigger and less realistic proportions. Big heads and that. But their cavalry looks real nice, while I think my Baccus cavalry are a tad boring in comparison. I got Baccus6mm for my Brits, and the other clubmate got Adler for his French. I painted my starter army in a month, while he's still stuck on his infantry. But his army will probably look cooler once it is finished. I'm thinking of getting some Adler later on as a separate force, either allies to his French or to my Brits. http://home.clara.net/adlermin/NAPOLEONIC/NAPOLEONICOPENINGPAGE.htm https://www.baccus6mm.com/  This is my small starter army, pre-flocking. It's missing almost half the cavalry and two or three regiments or so from the Baccus £35 starter army (I ran out of spare bases). You won't get this massed army look with 15mm unless you get hundreds of bases. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 20:04 on May 11, 2012 |
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May 11, 2012 19:59
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I kinda like those Baccus6mm, same scale as Epic if I remember, and they have Austrians (my nation of choice)
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May 11, 2012 20:09
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Panzeh posted:Russian TDs aren't as good as Americans. You choose between ROF2 AT12 or ROF1 AT15/16, and they all have Hen and Chicks which provides a double penalty for moving and shooting with ROF1 weapons. I guess that's a reason to run the list from the V3 Forces book. The Guards Heavy Assault Gun and Heavy Tanks (ISU's and IS's basically) no longer have Hen and Chick.
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May 12, 2012 00:53
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The Gate posted:I guess that's a reason to run the list from the V3 Forces book. The Guards Heavy Assault Gun and Heavy Tanks (ISU's and IS's basically) no longer have Hen and Chick. Yeah, that's true. I didn't really think about the guards heavy ISUs and I read Red Bear for some inspiration. I think KV-85s could actually be interesting because of their low price for heavy tanks and no hen and chicks.
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May 12, 2012 01:01
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As a hardcore 6mm Napoleonics player, I feel it's my duty to throw in my vote with the 6mm choice, and as for rules I would go for Black Powder if you like fast and loose, or Lasalle (my personal favourite) if you like a little more "period flavour" as it were. Both are very beginner friendly and have options for an army builder component to give roughly balanced games. They are also both pretty quick to play and don't have a million charts to wade through. Also I just played a tester game of Maurice today, and can confirm that it is awesome. The cards add just the right amount of tension and quirkiness to the command component, and the battle felt essentially spot on for 18th century. You really get to feel how linear warfare was pre-Napoleon. If I had both sides painted I would have taken pictures, but them's the breaks I guess. I'm speeding through the rest of these figures and I get in a pictured game this weekend though.
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May 12, 2012 02:20
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The Gate posted:I guess that's a reason to run the list from the V3 Forces book. The Guards Heavy Assault Gun and Heavy Tanks (ISU's and IS's basically) no longer have Hen and Chick. How would a Soviet Heavy Assault gun list work anyway? It seems like ROF 1 would really hurt, even without hen and chicks. The infantry options in the list seem nice to my untrained eye, but the guns themselves seem like they'd be really hit or miss.
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May 12, 2012 02:24
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humannature posted:How would a Soviet Heavy Assault gun list work anyway? It seems like ROF 1 would really hurt, even without hen and chicks. The infantry options in the list seem nice to my untrained eye, but the guns themselves seem like they'd be really hit or miss. I'm not so sure myself, honestly, the heavy guns are way too expensive. The light list is more viable because the SU-122 is the ultimate economical dug-in infantry destruction platform. HBG and a 2+ firepower rating means almost every hit kills infantry. Volley fire helps to hit. They also have a huge recon platoon to help with that. However, the light list really needs AT support and probably something with which to carry on an assault. Maybe a maxed out recon platoon will do for that purpose.
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May 12, 2012 02:34
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Mr.Booger posted:I was looking at some of them, Pendraken I think, but their site doesn't tell you how many infantry come when you buy them, which turned me off I want to know what I am buying (which is rare in Napoleonics I am finding) 30 in a pack. It says at the top of the page. quote:Each pack contains: 30 foot or 15 cavalry or 3 guns unless otherwise shown. Serotonin fucked around with this message at 09:51 on May 12, 2012 |
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May 12, 2012 08:46
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On the rule set issue it will come down to personal choice. Both books are lovely and both rule sets are very well done. My personal favourite is Black Powder not because its necessarily better but because it suits our gaming group better. It strength and its weakness is that it covers a 150 year period so if you plan on gaming anything else in that range, such as Crimea, American Civil War, Sudan, Zulus etc its perfect, which is why we like it. There are supplements due out that will add a wee bit more period flavour but that doesnt mean its not there already. Having only used BP for Napoleonics until last week, we had our first ACW game and we were all surprised just how different it felt in a lot of ways- a lot more shooty, cavalry were not particularly effective as assault troops, but were good for flanking then deploying as dismounted cavalry skirmishers etc. Figure wise I do love me some Pendraken but I went 6mm for Napoleonics (this was before my love affair with Pendraken) but I dont regret it. They look fantastic on the table top. Ive posted my pics before in this thread, but heres a link to my long un-updated blog to check out my forces. http://serotonins.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Napoleonics
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May 12, 2012 09:46
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Sokrateez posted:
Hell yeah we had out first test game this week too, using counters, but it was ace. As you say the tension of the cards is great and getting the stragety of their use right is a challenge. My friend and I kept burning through cards playing lots of cool events, interupts and modifiers and then realising we were left with little to command with, leading to some interesting outcomes. Really felt a good way to add in that friction that I like in games with good command and control systems. Playing again with my other gaming group next week, and one of those players is a hardcore 18th century nut and will be bringing his huge figure collection. He's already had a test game of the Lite rule that are available as a free download and loved them, so I think hes going to be a happy chappy.
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May 12, 2012 09:49
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Has anyone had a go at Battles of Napoleon? I spied a copy at the FLGS (it's hard to miss) and with the publisher apparently gone belly up it might be worth springing for. I can't seem to find a lot of thorough opinions about it floating about the Internet though.
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May 12, 2012 09:54
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Ive not played but had a paw through the box and it does look pretty cool. If its cheap I say go for it, you can always flog it later. The other alternative is COmmand and Colours Napoleonics. Thats very good.
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May 12, 2012 10:02
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Serotonin posted:The other alternative is Command and Colours Napoleonics. Thats very good. But that's just wooden blocks. I wanna box of toys! Also, I've already got Memoir '44 on the shelf if I need to scratch that itch.
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May 12, 2012 10:13
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Obama 2012 posted:But that's just wooden blocks. I wanna box of toys! Good point, although I know people who use hexon hex tiles and miniatures for their Command & Colours games- looks really good. Memoir 44 is ace, Im finally goig to get round to buy a box for myself because I think my son could handle it. Hes nearly 6 but I think if I took all the special cards out then he would be fine- hes already helping me play the free Steam version (which is excellent BTW if you've not played it). Actually that goes for everyone, download Steam Memoir 44, my Steam nick is Amrypooins.
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May 12, 2012 10:17
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