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Perfectly Cromulent posted:L'Atelier is a terrific restaurant. Congratulations! Thanks! And yes, although there is a wine director of both restaurants who will oversee any big changes. Edit: Already tried tons of amazing things in the few days since I started. People blow so much money on wine in this town. Had 1998 Chateau Cheval Blanc and 1979 Opus One tonight. Crimson fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Apr 25, 2012 |
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Apr 25, 2012 08:40
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Congratulations, Crimson! I'm studying for my Introductory and (eventually) Certified Sommelier exams at the moment, and my most recent topic of study has been Burgundy. I approached the wine director at our restaurant and asked if there were any white Burgundies in my price range I should try. He sent me home with this:  Domaine Michèle & Patrice Rion Nuits-St-Georges 1er Cru "Les Terres Blanches" 2009 Being from California, I've been assaulted on a regular basis by huge, buttery, oaky, sweet, monstrous Chardonnay - a style we affectionately refer to as "Cougar Juice." I die a little on the inside whenever guests order Rombauer over Ramey or Pride. I live in the Silicon Valley, close to the Santa Cruz Mountains AVA that can make quite pleasant Chardonnays. And there are others throughout California that do their best to buck the heavy-handed approach to Chardonnay-making, and I salute them! But I rarely get a chance to try a nice white Burgundy, so this was a fun exercise for a wine neophyte. This is a very lovely wine. Aromas of hazelnut, with subtle notes of vanilla, butterscotch, and toast frame the lemon juice and lime peel fruit character. On the palate, the wine is quite savory, with both a creamy richness and a direct acidity that balance each other remarkably. The finish was possibly the longest I've experienced in a white wine - strong and continuously evolving. I've had it open for about an hour now, and the wine changes every time I approach it, highlighting another characteristic with each sip. Mesmerizing! I also picked up a red Côte de Nuits-Villages from the same producer, and I'm really looking forward to it.
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May 1, 2012 07:30
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Today's tasting notes are on some cool Italian wine! First, this lovely Barolo:  Ceretto Zonchera Barolo 2007 I haven't had a lot of Nebbiolo in general, so this was great to try. Some good poo poo right here. At first, I get sour red cherry, then a distinct whiff of black olives or even olive brine. There's anise, cinnamon sticks, and dusty cedar. Lots of structure with a very dry finish; medium to high acid, tannin, and alcohol. Drunk with a roast beef hoagie because I'm very classy. After dinner, I took on a fascinating sweet red:  Roccolo Grassi Recioto Della Valpolicella 2006 I've never heard of this type of wine before, to be completely honest with you. It's a wine from the Veneto region of Italy, made primarily from the Corvina grape. The grapes are dried out for several months before vinification, resulting in a syrupy wine with somewhat high sugar (and alcohol) content. This wine is confounding me right now. I get a nostalgic feeling from it, even though I've only been drinking wine for a couple of years. I think this is close to what I thought wine would taste like when I was a child. As odd as that sounds, I hope you know what I mean. First thing: Old. Books. The first whiff reminds me of SO INTENSELY of old books. You know those books in the library (or your parents' bookcase) that are so loving ancient that the pages are all yellow and brittle? You know that smell? That's what I'm getting right now. Plus lots of dried fruits, which is unsurprising: medjool dates! Also, raisins, prunes, dried cranberries and blueberries. Spices... clove and cinnamon, for sure. Clover honey. Bitter kalamata olives, too. This wine is so interesting. I'm glad I reached for something entirely new and got to check this one out.
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May 8, 2012 08:22
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Sup wine thread, I'm taking the wife to a BYOB Moroccan joint tonight and I need wine advice. Without knowing what dishes we'll be enjoying (and not knowing much about Moroccan food in general) what should I get?
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May 8, 2012 21:14
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Mr. Glass posted:Sup wine thread, I'd probably roll with a nice dry (or slightly sweet, depending on your taste) Riesling. Riesling goes well with almost anything, and sounded like a good match for most of the dishes at my local Moroccan restaurant I just looked up. If you want it dry look for wines from Alsace, France. If slightly sweet sounds good, maybe grab a German Riesling with "Kabinett" on the label. For a red, hard to go wrong with Pinot Noir. Pinot is the most universal red wine for food pairing. I'd personally get either a red Burgundy or an Oregon Pinot if I wasn't sure what the cuisine was going to be.
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May 11, 2012 09:26
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Well unfortunately "tonight" was 3 days ago so I just got a decent Cotes du Rhone. It worked reasonably well, but I think I probably should have gone with a white (like a Riesling or Gewurztraminer) since we ended up getting a quail dish and a salmon dish (I was expecting lamb).
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May 11, 2012 14:31
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Mr. Glass posted:Well unfortunately "tonight" was 3 days ago so I just got a decent Cotes du Rhone. It worked reasonably well, but I think I probably should have gone with a white (like a Riesling or Gewurztraminer) since we ended up getting a quail dish and a salmon dish (I was expecting lamb). Haha whoops, guess I need to look at the dates. Pinot Noir would have worked very well with both quail and salmon.
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May 13, 2012 10:12
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Never thought I'd find myself posting in the drat wine thread, as historically I've hated the stuff. However, that being said, my brother and I took my mother out to a really nice restaurant for Mother's Day, and I found that the bottle of wine we had was REALLY good. I mean, I was startled as to how tasty it was. Now this was a near 100 dollar bottle of wine (Cakebread Sauvignon Blanc 2008 vintage) but I'm was curious to find out if it possible to get the same flavors for hopefully less money 
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May 18, 2012 20:15
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the restaurant probably marked it up a ton, so you can probably grab that exact wine on your own for a much lower price
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May 19, 2012 00:17
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Wicaeed posted:Never thought I'd find myself posting in the drat wine thread, as historically I've hated the stuff. Cakebread Sauvignon Blanc is about $30 retail. You sure you don't mean Cakebread Cabernet Sauvignon? The Cabernet is around $60 retail which would make the $100 you paid at the restaurant more reasonable. If they charged you $100 for the Sauvignon Blanc, you got ripped off. What was it that you liked about the wine? That'll help us give you an idea of what you might want to try. Based on what little you've told us, I'd recommend a Bordeaux Blanc. They are blends of mostly Sauvignon Blanc and Semillon. $20 should get you a good one from a decent wine shop.
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May 19, 2012 01:13
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Perfectly Cromulent posted:Cakebread Sauvignon Blanc is about $30 retail. You sure you don't mean Cakebread Cabernet Sauvignon? The Cabernet is around $60 retail which would make the $100 you paid at the restaurant more reasonable. If they charged you $100 for the Sauvignon Blanc, you got ripped off. Ah, you are correct, it was the Cakebread Cabernet Sauvignon. I'm not sure what part I really liked most. Usually when I drink a red wine it leaves a strange taste for a few seconds after I breathe in after a sip, with this wine that didn't happen and it let me enjoy the flavors much much more than on a cheaper red.
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May 19, 2012 03:44
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I've found many people will have god loving awful 6.99 gas station wine growing up at parties here and there and decide they hate the taste of wine. It usually takes someone forcing something actually well made down their throats to make them realize that it doesn't all taste like that. Kind of reminds me of how I thought beer was disgusting because all I was exposed to was my dad's Coor's Light. For similar taste but not quite as expensive I'd highly recommend Robert Mondavi's Napa Valley Cab, or Stratton Lummis Napa Cab if you can find it. If you're buying the Mondavi make sure it's labeled "Napa Valley" and not "Private Selection", because the latter is loving terrible.
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May 19, 2012 11:48
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If I were you, Wicaeed, I'd look for a Zinfandel by Ridge. Or, alternately, you could look for The Boxer or Two Left Feet by Mollydooker. I quite literally hate wines like those, but they have the big buxom low-acid red thing down, and are in the $25 range. Ridge is a very good wine that almost the entire wine world likes and respects. Mollydooker are certainly doing something out there in Australia, and it makes wine that a lot of people like to drink, but the wine geek in me cringes to recommend it, if you care about that sort of stuff. I believe the flavor that you didn't like that you're referring to is the astringency that a lot of wines have, typically attributed to tannins. Do you get an almost fuzzy feeling on your tongue from the wines you do not like?
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May 19, 2012 18:57
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Perfectly Cromulent posted:Cakebread Sauvignon Blanc is about $30 retail. You sure you don't mean Cakebread Cabernet Sauvignon? The Cabernet is around $60 retail which would make the $100 you paid at the restaurant more reasonable. If they charged you $100 for the Sauvignon Blanc, you got ripped off. I drink a lot of wine and I drink a fair amount at restaurants. I am familiar with wine prices generally and ok with markups but I was having dinner at the French Laundry on Wednesday and the wine markup was insane. Is this just a matter of "we know you have it so we are going to charge you" or is there such a greater expense in keeping a large cellar and a sommellier on staff for 16 tables that justifies the prices?
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May 21, 2012 04:00
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Absolut_V posted:I drink a lot of wine and I drink a fair amount at restaurants. I am familiar with wine prices generally and ok with markups but I was having dinner at the French Laundry on Wednesday and the wine markup was insane. Is this just a matter of "we know you have it so we are going to charge you" or is there such a greater expense in keeping a large cellar and a sommellier on staff for 16 tables that justifies the prices? A little of both. Their markup is a little high, I'd say about 3.5-4x cost. Most places do 3x these days. What I'd like to mention though is that although people tend to think places like this are overpriced, the reality is that they're likely not turning a large profit at all. I can't speak specifically for French Laundry, but generally fine dining restaurants like these are lucky to break even. Margins are razor thin, with insane food costs and payroll. In terms of overpriced for what you get, your local Applebee's is generally marking things up more as a percent than fine dining. They can easily mark up beer and liquor 5x or more.
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May 21, 2012 11:30
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Crimson posted:A little of both. Their markup is a little high, I'd say about 3.5-4x cost. Most places do 3x these days. What I'd like to mention though is that although people tend to think places like this are overpriced, the reality is that they're likely not turning a large profit at all. I can't speak specifically for French Laundry, but generally fine dining restaurants like these are lucky to break even. Margins are razor thin, with insane food costs and payroll. In terms of overpriced for what you get, your local Applebee's is generally marking things up more as a percent than fine dining. They can easily mark up beer and liquor 5x or more. I (silently) grumble about wine markups in restaurants. I see a boring Pinot Grigio that retails for $10 and is on the wine list at $40. Not only is that bottle not going to provide $40, of pleasure, but it's also going to encourage the occasional wine drinker to think that wine is expensive, not that great, and something only for special occasions or to impress a date. On the other hand, wine is a big gamble for a restaurant. You're also paying for storage, fragile glassware, and as you move up into the higher end, that you happen to have a customer with the right knowledge, enough money, and great timing to purchase the bottle at its optimal age... assuming that it didn't get corked, oxidized, or dropped on the floor. Cleveland was a great place to drink wine. Because of some local laws (which I'm sure the restaurants hated), a bottle of wine was capped at 2X retail, or they would sell it to you unopened at 1X retail. I always thought that latter part was a neat idea, because if a table really likes a wine they had with dinner, instead of having to direct them to a separate shop (who probably won't have it), you can make a small sale right on the spot, move some inventory, and create a positive customer service experience. Michael Symon's restaurants even had pretty reasonable and very fresh wine-by-the glass options, and those lists had fun, affordable wines like nero d'avola.
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May 22, 2012 01:06
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benito posted:Cleveland was a great place to drink wine. Because of some local laws (which I'm sure the restaurants hated), a bottle of wine was capped at 2X retail, or they would sell it to you unopened at 1X retail. I always thought that latter part was a neat idea, because if a table really likes a wine they had with dinner, instead of having to direct them to a separate shop (who probably won't have it), you can make a small sale right on the spot, move some inventory, and create a positive customer service experience. Michael Symon's restaurants even had pretty reasonable and very fresh wine-by-the glass options, and those lists had fun, affordable wines like nero d'avola. Wow a fine dining restaurant would be losing money on those bottle sales. The costs involved in employing a sommelier(s), storing and maintaining a temperature controlled cellar, and renting the physical space of a cellar or warehouse all add up to a lot more than the retail markup.
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May 22, 2012 09:02
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Crimson posted:Wow a fine dining restaurant would be losing money on those bottle sales. The costs involved in employing a sommelier(s), storing and maintaining a temperature controlled cellar, and renting the physical space of a cellar or warehouse all add up to a lot more than the retail markup. I'm sure they make up for it with higher food prices.
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May 22, 2012 14:37
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Mr. Glass posted:I'm sure they make up for it with higher food prices. This is an unreflective and ill considered opinion. That said, with the exception of the somm, who will not sell less at full than without the law, a good retail store will have all those costs too.
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May 22, 2012 16:33
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Mr. Glass posted:I'm sure they make up for it with higher food prices. They really don't. That's the thinnest margin of all. I've tracked the P&L margins for two five stars, both oscillated between losing money and making insignificant profit. We turned a profit of $40k one year at my last restaurant, mostly because I got really aggressive in my wine buying and pricing.
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May 22, 2012 18:35
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Crimson posted:Wow a fine dining restaurant would be losing money on those bottle sales. The costs involved in employing a sommelier(s), storing and maintaining a temperature controlled cellar, and renting the physical space of a cellar or warehouse all add up to a lot more than the retail markup. It's a miracle that wine retailers are able to remain in business. Wicaeed posted:Ah, you are correct, it was the Cakebread Cabernet Sauvignon. How cheap do you usually go when drinking a bottle of wine? Are you buying from a wine shop, or at a grocery store?
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May 22, 2012 21:30
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For another take on weird restaurant wine sales, the industry juggernaut is The Olive Garden. As someone really interested in building a middle class, everyday wine culture, I admire what they're doing. As someone passionate about real Italian cuisine, I weep a little inside.
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May 23, 2012 02:13
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Absolut_V posted:I drink a lot of wine and I drink a fair amount at restaurants. I am familiar with wine prices generally and ok with markups but I was having dinner at the French Laundry on Wednesday and the wine markup was insane. Is this just a matter of "we know you have it so we are going to charge you" or is there such a greater expense in keeping a large cellar and a sommellier on staff for 16 tables that justifies the prices? Crimson posted:Their markup is a little high, I'd say about 3.5-4x cost. Most places do 3x these days. The French Laundry's markups are absurdly high, far more than 3.5-4x. For example, the 2010 Dönnhoff Riesling (QbA) retails for around $20, but is $95 at the restaurant. That's a 4.75x markup over retail and probably around 6-7x cost. That is in no way an exceptional markup on their list. If you are going to The French Laundry, you are a captive audience. They are one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, restaurants in the country. There is no option to go elsewhere for a similar food experience. They charge their huge markups because they can; it will not reduce the number of reservations they get nor will it prevent people from buying wine. Wine is a HUGE money maker for them. If you don't think so, consider what is a more attractive business proposition: charging $500 for a bottle of 1er Cru Burgundy that you bought for $80 and had to store, provide glassware for, pour table-side, and devote a single employee to; or charging $270 for an entire labor-intensive prix fixe meal that requires a team of cooks and the restaurant's own farmer to produce.
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May 23, 2012 03:29
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Perfectly Cromulent posted:It's a miracle that wine retailers are able to remain in business. Wine retailers have WAY less overhead in every facet. That is not apples to apples. Even the glassware needs to be considered. At my old place we used Riedel somm series, which we got for $60-90 a glass depending on the glass, and we broke 1.5 a night. There's probably a reason Cleveland isn't a hotbed for fine dining. If that were enacted here we'd go from turning a slight profit to the red immediately. Actually I bet they just compensate with higher margins for food items. My initial point was simply that you can't really bemoan high prices at fine dining because they really don't make much money, despite the sticker shock at those prices. Perfectly Cromulent posted:The French Laundry's markups are absurdly high, far more than 3.5-4x. For example, the 2010 Dönnhoff Riesling (QbA) retails for around $20, but is $95 at the restaurant. That's a 4.75x markup over retail and probably around 6-7x cost. That is in no way an exceptional markup on their list. I admit I actually looked at some more expensive bottles to ballpark their markup. My estimate is probably their markup for their higher tier items. Cheaper wines definitely get marked up way more. No need to offer a bottle at $60 at a place like that.
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May 23, 2012 08:37
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Perfectly Cromulent posted:The French Laundry's markups are absurdly high, far more than 3.5-4x. For example, the 2010 Dönnhoff Riesling (QbA) retails for around $20, but is $95 at the restaurant. That's a 4.75x markup over retail and probably around 6-7x cost. That is in no way an exceptional markup on their list. This is more in line with what I saw. I just didn't know if there was something special about the extensive wine list that would have made it justifiable.
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May 24, 2012 03:32
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Absolut_V posted:This is more in line with what I saw. I just didn't know if there was something special about the extensive wine list that would have made it justifiable. Gotta pay for those iPads somehow.
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May 24, 2012 04:23
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Storage costs increase dramatically with a wine list the size of TFLs, as compared to your average restaurant. A lot of the bottles will have been stored on site for a very long time, others are auction lots, bottles not available at retail sourced from the domaine or distributors, &etc. While I am sure they markup a lot, and I'm sure that TFL is quite profitable, I would be very surprised if it was a particularly bad deal as compared to other roughly equivalent places.
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May 24, 2012 05:19
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I just want to be clear that I am not saying that restaurants don't often have significant costs associated with their wine programs. What I AM trying to say is that 3x-4x+ cost markups are certainly making good money for most restaurants. Back to more directly wine related things, I never thought I'd say this, but the two best QPR wines I've had recently have been Champagnes. Not just Champagne, but vintage Champagne: 2004 José Michel Special Club Brut and 2002 Marc Chauvet Special Club Brut. Both usually sell for a little under $70/bottle, but I managed to grab them for under $60. Not cheap, but they would easily stack up to Champagnes that cost twice the price, IMO. The Jose Michel is the richer, more decadent of the two while the Chauvet is racy, bright, and focused. Both are delicious and tremendously complex. Edit: forgot to mention that these are heavy on the Chardonnay. 50% Chard/50% Pinot Meunier in the José Michel and 70% Chard/30% Pinot Noir in the Chauvet. consensual poster fucked around with this message at 06:37 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 06:31
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The natural wine movement has been getting pretty strong here in Australia for the last couple of years. I used to be pretty ambivalent towards it but after giving it some thought some aspects of it seem pretty dumb and as the article points out, it idea that some wine is 'natural' automatically implies that others are not which understandably upsets some producers. If humans are inherently unnatural then no wine can truly be 'natural'. How can a vineyard be natural if it is the product of 'unnatural' intervention? quote:There's anarchy in the streets of Sydney. Anarchy in the cute and trendy wine bars; anarchy in the fashionable sommelier-run restaurants, at least. It's the so-called ''natural'' wine movement, which has found more welcoming arms in Sydney than anywhere in Australia. Think Love, Tilly Devine; Vini; 121BC; The Wine Library; 10 William Street; Fix St James; Fratelli Paradiso.
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May 29, 2012 10:19
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Are there red wines that go well with strawberries that aren't desert wines? I would pick a rosé wine and call it a day but I figured you lot probably know what's up. Please help me 
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May 29, 2012 10:40
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I'd try a semi-sweet Riesling (obviously not a red variety), or a rosé myself.
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May 29, 2012 10:50
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4liters posted:I'd try a semi-sweet Riesling (obviously not a red variety), or a rosé myself. It's probably going to be a rosé then, its a shame she said she loved red wine, but I really want strawberries.
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May 29, 2012 11:35
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Reading your intro, and the first few paragraphs od that article, I was expecting another very ho hum critique of natural wine to which I would have manifold objections. I was happily surprised to find it not so. That said, a few quick points. First, that there is no solid definition of what constitutes natural wine is probably a good thing. The term is fuzzy, like almost all natural language terms, and this movement if we can call it that is all about the joyous celebration of difference. Nailing it down would be antithetical. Second, the uncritical parroting of the tired lines about wine faults is boring. I like a bit of brett in my wine, and hate the taste of sulfur - common in lots of MSR Riesling produced at the state of the art, for example. And many natural winemakers would consider new oak influence a fault. The notion that it is inappropriate to judge natural wines and conventional modern wines by different scorecards is silly.
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May 29, 2012 19:53
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I guess my position is that I have no problem at all with them making wine in this way but perhaps 'natural' isn't the right term for it. Call it 'no rules', 'anarchic winemaking', 'oenarchy' (gently caress you, I'm copyrighting this one), 'primitive', or 'minimal intervention' or something else because there isn't much natural about making wine. If concrete eggs are 'natural' then so are barrels and presses and filters. It just sounds like an elaborate exercise in marketing to me.
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May 30, 2012 01:23
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For many people, that's a large part of it. You should see if some of Dressner's selections are available in AU, or just look for bourgueil or saumur made biodynamically.
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May 30, 2012 03:00
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pork never goes bad posted:...and this movement if we can call it that is all about the joyous celebration of difference. This notion goes right out the window the first time you read an article by Alice Feiring. There are many in the "natural wine movement" who are as much about vilifying certain types of wine (and wine-making) and having theological discussions about what constitutes a "natural wine" as they are about joyously celebrating anything. I really enjoy a lot of the wines coming out of this movement, from the more weird and extreme end, like Radikon, to the more conventional wines made with biodynamic farming practices and "minimal intervention". It's too bad that a lot of the people associated with this stuff are zealots and nutters.
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May 31, 2012 07:48
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I think the biggest problem with the various natural wine movements aren't necessarily the winemakers, but the writers, bloggers, and other bits of flotsam surrounding them. Most of the "natural" winemakers don't give a poo poo about the label; they care more about the wine. It's all the writers and bloggers around the business that stir up the pot, and for most it's because they're grasping for something with real meaning while doing poo poo all thats actually meaningful. Anyways I just got a couple cases of some sweet sparkling 8% Gamay (La Bulle Gamay from P-U-R) and this stuff is loving magical. I drank half a bottle last night & my panties dropped so hard I'm not gonna be able to wear them for another week.
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May 31, 2012 08:03
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idiotsavant posted:I think the biggest problem with the various natural wine movements aren't necessarily the winemakers, but the writers, bloggers, and other bits of flotsam surrounding them. Most of the "natural" winemakers don't give a poo poo about the label; they care more about the wine. It's all the writers and bloggers around the business that stir up the pot, and for most it's because they're grasping for something with real meaning while doing poo poo all thats actually meaningful. It's trying to ascribe a cause->effect relationship to something that is inherently unmeasureable and largely the result of random chance. Did that wine come out great because the wine maker sang to his vines every night or did he just happen to have a nice plot of land that had better than average conditions a few years in a row? If you refuse to use the all the science and methodology that has been accumulated over the centuries of wine-making and yet you still get a good result does that invalidate the science? No, but some people seem to think it does and like to tout their observations very loudly.
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May 31, 2012 15:07
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I've been saving this bottle for a special occasion. Not sure what yet. I have it in my mind it would be cool to save it until someone has been born who would be impressed by the year 2005. Here's the cellar tracker page for it. Is it even worth saving any longer or should I find an occasion and decide it's special enough?
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Jun 1, 2012 02:50
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Alice Feiring is not representative of natural winemakers - and she didn't even manage to make wine that she'd call natural wine when she tried! I like to drink "natural wine" a lot. And I make a point of seeking it out. I don't think I've ever claimed that it's superior in any inherent sense. I'm also not attached to the label. I've never vilified anybody for their preference in different wine - in fact in this thread I recommended loving Mollydooker to someone because it was in their price range and something they'd probably like given their expressed preferences. But the minute I say that I'm interested in "natural wine," I am likely to get a screed about the definition, or how it's just a marketing term, or how it's dishonest, or how it's unscientific, or flawed, or tastes bad, or... I receive more vitriol for my like of this kind of wine than for anything else. If I were uncharitable I'd say that the dishonest, flawed, thing is to add glycerol and mega-purple to wine without disclosing it on the label to jack up the sweetness and mouthfeel. Or picking Sauv under-ripe to get the characteristic green apple (and maybe cat's piss) flavors. Or picking Zinfandel over-ripe and producing dull jammy wine with 10g/l rs. And @ Murgos - you're missing the point quite profoundly. The point is not to make the wine that tastes best (presumably what you mean by "the wine [came] out great"), the point is to make the wine that tastes truest, or most honest, or perhaps the wine that is truest or most honest. ETA: Drink it. It'll be nicer now than in 2 years, for example. My favourite application for an expensive bottle of wine that I can't find an occasion for is taking it to a burger place and drinking from tumblers.
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Jun 1, 2012 02:50
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