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I have the feeling it will have a sickeningly happy ending. The bad stuff has been foreshadowed for too long for that to be the real ending.
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Mar 18, 2012 16:09
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BananaNutkins posted:I have the feeling it will have a sickeningly happy ending. The bad stuff has been foreshadowed for too long for that to be the real ending. I have a feeling for Goon's it'll have a happy ending... I'll be happy it ended so I don't feel the need to invest more with the series. (Unless the third book is better than the first, I don't think that it can make up for the second.)
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Mar 18, 2012 17:34
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BananaNutkins posted:I have the feeling it will have a sickeningly happy ending. The bad stuff has been foreshadowed for too long for that to be the real ending. If this is the case, despite the Cthaeh being in the backdrop of the first book's cover, I will send Rothfuss a pile of my own poo poo. The Cthaeh-related stuff is the only thread of hope I have that this will remain a tragedy, but I'm starting to suspect the author's wish-fulfillment impulse will win out. We can assume that the Cthaeh's major future-altering action involves the following passage: Wise Man's Fear posted:“Not many folk will take your search for the Amyr seriously, you realize,” the Cthaeh continued calmly. “The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He’s already come close to them, though he doesn’t realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door.” If that last part isn't a ham-handed hint to the reader, then I don't know what could be. And everything else the Cthaeh says is already something Kvothe knows or suspects (other than Cinder being the leader of the bandits), like Denna's patron being a shithead, etc. I gotta think the Doors of Stone (being the third book's title and all) are probably the portal to the Amyr, or something.
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Mar 18, 2012 17:34
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BananaNutkins posted:I have the feeling it will have a sickeningly happy ending. The bad stuff has been foreshadowed for too long for that to be the real ending. I think it's going to be an ending that we the audience thinks is relatively happy, but that Kvothe considers a tragedy. Based on those really interesting re-reads, I'm thinking what will happen in the third book is that Kvothe will open up the door underneath the University, unleashing whatever's under there (possibly Iax) and killing almost all of his University friends and enemies in the process which is why they're not around to tell all of these stories about him. Possibly the Amyr will have manipulated him into doing this via Denna / her master, his original teacher, Skarpi, etc in an attempt to gain an ally against the Chandrian. Iax will pull the Fae world into the real world and the chaos will happen. Kvothe will steal something from someone, that box thing maybe, and set up the Waystone as a place to protect it, having the consequence of making himself and his powers useless inside of it to keep him hidden from whatever wants it. The end in the framing story will probably be him being discovered and then... something. Probably happy. Denna will probably be there. Who knows.
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Mar 18, 2012 18:01
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I bet the Cthaeh is part of a whole race of trees that ruin the world with their prophetic ability. All the rest were exterminated, but this one was so bad at its job that they just let it live. Now it sits alone in Fae cackling wildly to itself and telling people to bet on the wrong side of the over/under.
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Mar 18, 2012 18:18
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Just finished the audiobook version of the first volume. Quite good. I had to laugh that it was supposed to have been narrated in a day, but the audiobook is 40-hours long. Starting the second very soon. I love Audible.
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Apr 12, 2012 03:02
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Goddamn, finished the second one. Now I'm sad.
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Apr 20, 2012 04:01
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Kynetx posted:Goddamn, finished the second one. Now I'm sad.
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Apr 26, 2012 18:32
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Sylphosaurus posted:What? You didn't enjoy the endless pages of Kvothe loving Tinkerbells feral cousin, or what?? Or the struggles of an aspiring accountant.
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Apr 26, 2012 18:48
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Sylphosaurus posted:What? You didn't enjoy the endless pages of Kvothe loving Tinkerbells feral cousin, or what?? Maybe it's because the book ends on a low note, with Kvothe getting the poo poo kicked out of him by those two deserters, failing to open the trunk, Bast being forcibly disillusioned about Kvothe, and the reader once again being told about the sound of a man who is waiting to die. But nah let's all do the "man he's so awkward with women Felurian LOL" circle-jerk again.
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May 2, 2012 18:19
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isochronous posted:But nah let's all do the "man he's so awkward with women Felurian LOL" circle-jerk again.
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May 2, 2012 19:59
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I don't know what to say if you really believe that Kvothe is really down and out instead of just  -ly taking a beating to "outsmart the badguys" only to come back in the next book to explode with vengeance upon what-ever or whomever he's been playing the slow-game against.If we know anything, it's that Rothfuss, while able to put words together in a fun to read way is no Grossman or Abercrombie who will do horrible things to their main characters on a whim. It's not even just the Felurian stuff, but karate sex college and man mothers. Combine this with virtually any youtube of the author talking and you've got a recipe for awful stereotypes come to life.
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May 2, 2012 20:10
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Campbell posted:
While correct, that's also an equally lovely way to write.
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May 2, 2012 20:21
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Oh Snapple! posted:While correct, that's also an equally lovely way to write. Well, except at least with Abercrombie (based on reading the First Law books, anyway), it pretty much always serves a purpose for character arcs and plot.
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May 2, 2012 20:38
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Mahlertov Cocktail posted:Well, except at least with Abercrombie (based on reading the First Law books, anyway), it pretty much always serves a purpose for character arcs and plot. While I enjoy Abercrombie's books due to his humor and the personalities of his characters, I can't really stand his themes (though this is an entirely personal thing). "People can't change" is just an awful, useless theme in my eyes and ultimately prevents me from enjoying his works as much as I'd like. The post was also a general disagreement with the "It's not good unless it's gritty/dark/pessimistic/nihilistic/etc" mindset. The wish fulfillment of authors like Rothfuss and the awfulness of the worlds and characters of authors like Grossman are just two different extremes of lovely writing (though I'd argue the fascination with the latter as far as readers go is another form of wish fulfillment in some cases).
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May 2, 2012 20:48
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Yeah, to be honest, I got a little burned out by the end of the First Law books because of that. I enjoyed the books a lot, but reading all three of those back to back was loving depressing. Though I don't agree that that's a "useless" theme.
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May 2, 2012 20:54
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I thought the Man Mothers theme was pretty stupid, but if a culture spent every not-killing moment actively slinging goo at eachother, they'd never observe the loving=baby manufacturing correlation. It's still stupid, but the tortured logic works. I just don't get why he's hung up on the flighty pain in the rear end Denna instead of going for the hot and brainy Fela McBustybra. Please excuse any spelling glitches. The audiobook may have led me astray.
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May 2, 2012 21:03
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Kynetx posted:I thought the Man Mothers theme was pretty stupid, but if a culture spent every not-killing moment actively slinging goo at eachother, they'd never observe the loving=baby manufacturing correlation. It's still stupid, but the tortured logic works. Nah, it's pretty stupid. At the very least their culture would have noticed that none of the cad ladies/ugly people seem to be popping out kids and put two and two together. I could maybe buy the scenario if this was some tiny pre-writting civilization utterly separated from other societies, but this is a worldly advanced culture. As for Denna, I think Rothfuss wants to waive the attraction off as a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "true love is blind" type thing. Kvothe and Denna love each other just because, however they're so proud that they say mean things to each other and never admit their secret love. I think. Maybe Pat actually expected us to also fall in love with Denna?
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May 2, 2012 23:37
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keiran_helcyan posted:. Maybe Pat actually expected us to also fall in love with Denna? That's the only explanation since I know *I* would have kicked that irritating child-minded fruitcake to the curb pretty quick. I think most people would do the same. Mixed signals piss me off, but I'm old and have no patience with people that think that being beautiful entitles them to special treatment.
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May 3, 2012 03:48
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Kynetx posted:I'm old and have no patience with people that think that being beautiful entitles them to special treatment. What special treatment does Denna think she is entitled to? From conversation Kvothe overheard in WMF it's pretty appearant that Denna considers what she does to be on par with whoring. She is desperate to get financial stability and some skills with instruments. So desperate she is willing to be beaten regularly just to have a patron that doesn't even give hell full support. Are you saying something along the lines of "She should make her money like honest whores do."? keiran_helcyan posted:Maybe Pat actually expected us to also fall in love with Denna? I don't think he expected us to. Do you have friends that were total idiots about love when they were younger? I have several. One of them fell in love when he was 15 and is still yearning after her. And just like Kvothe he is 24 already. (Kvothe is estimated to be around 22-27 in the frame story. Right?) That is the way I see Kvothe's and Dennas relationship. Sure the love may not be unrecuited, but Kvothe sure is idiot about it. To me it's not some great love story (even if Kvothe describes it as such), but just another guy that has fallen for some girl he met on his way to Imre. And to that particular guy, she means the world. I don't think any of us need to love Denna to understand Kvothes love for her. Or do we? I figured thats how Pat saw her also. I might be wrong however. Silkki fucked around with this message at 14:34 on May 3, 2012 |
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May 3, 2012 14:25
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Sylphosaurus posted:Frankly I think that the reactions against the Felurian section is pretty much justified, considering for how many pages it occupies in the book. I would have rather seen those pages being used for Kvothes oversea journey that he himself only glosses over. But instead we get endless pages of Kvothe getting himself sexomancy lessons from a horny not-nymph. I'm not arguing with that, I'm just saying we've covered that territory over and over again in this thread, and bringing it up any time anyone mentions anything about the second book whether or not it has anything to do with what was mentioned is loving annoying.
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May 3, 2012 18:35
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Jo Walton has finished her detailed reread through book 2 as of today and apparently will be asking Rothfuss some questions directly in the next couple of weeks. Nothing spoilery in the interview stuff supposedly, but just thought I'd mention it.
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May 3, 2012 21:00
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I have a new favorite Denna theory after seeing some of the discussion in that re-read. Previously Denna had asked Kvothe's student friends if there was a type of magic where writing something down could cause it to happen. In their last encounter in the book Denna gets really angry when Kvothe is able to read the Yllish braid in her hair that says "lovely". She later braids "don't speak to me" after they have their stupid fight. She's been mind controlling him with magic hair braids into finding her irresistible! 
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May 3, 2012 23:19
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keiran_helcyan posted:She's been mind controlling him with magic hair braids into finding her irresistible! I have found these books pretty entertaining though, Fucklurian aside. Rothfuss has a rare gift of pissing you off by suddenly switching plot threads but getting you hooked on the new storyline in mere pages. I'm pissed because I thought the final book was coming out this spring and just found out today that I have another year to wait. I guess I should check up on these things more often.
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May 15, 2012 02:28
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Jett posted:I'm pissed because I thought the final book was coming out this spring and just found out today that I have another year to wait. I guess I should check up on these things more often. Has 2013 even been confirmed? I try to avoid getting my hopes up when it comes to books, and especially fantasy books.
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May 15, 2012 17:30
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keiran_helcyan posted:Nah, it's pretty stupid. At the very least their culture would have noticed that none of the cad ladies/ugly people seem to be popping out kids and put two and two together. I could maybe buy the scenario if this was some tiny pre-writting civilization utterly separated from other societies, but this is a worldly advanced culture. Don't forget that the female ninja's go out on missions, perhaps for years, and refuse to sex up non-ninja's. Over time, with these women not getting pregnant, someone would have figured it out. It's easy to poke holes in everything. Being cynical is fun but it kills my enjoyment for books. I've learned to go in assuming everything is complete poo poo and being pleasantly surprised when it isn't. When I read I take the role of the main character / narrator and enjoy the ride. I used to think everyone did it, but this thread contradicts that. xyzzyx fucked around with this message at 23:28 on May 15, 2012 |
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May 15, 2012 23:23
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MrFlibble posted:Has 2013 even been confirmed? I try to avoid getting my hopes up when it comes to books, and especially fantasy books.  Speaking of wishy-washy, the Tehlin religion pisses me off, another low point of the series for me. Christianity with all of its stereotypical hypocrisy and inconsistency rolled back into the actual doctrine does not an original religion and/or scathing critique make, and it's certainly not interesting. And then they were in pain but then they felt better but it still hurt a little and they were forgiven but still punished and they helped others but not always, and Jesus-analogue defeated Satan-analogue except not, and it really makes me think except no it doesn't at all.
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May 16, 2012 00:36
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Oh Snapple! posted:The post was also a general disagreement with the "It's not good unless it's gritty/dark/pessimistic/nihilistic/etc" mindset. The wish fulfillment of authors like Rothfuss and the awfulness of the worlds and characters of authors like Grossman are just two different extremes of lovely writing (though I'd argue the fascination with the latter as far as readers go is another form of wish fulfillment in some cases). You are absolutely dead on on this point and I'm fairly eager for the fantasy market pendulum to swing back to the lighter side for a while, hopefully without losing the willingness to bust cliches and the general increase in writing quality.
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May 16, 2012 03:33
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keiran_helcyan posted:Nah, it's pretty stupid. At the very least their culture would have noticed that none of the cad ladies/ugly people seem to be popping out kids and put two and two together. I could maybe buy the scenario if this was some tiny pre-writting civilization utterly separated from other societies, but this is a worldly advanced culture. I think it has some basis. Adem women clearly have sex often. And by often I mean several partners a week. If they got pregnant easily, all of the women Kvothe meets in Adem should be pregnant or atleast mothers. They aren't. For those people there is no straight correlation between having sex and having children. Imagine having had sex daily for past 5 years and then having someone you consider a barbarian tell you that sex results in babies. Add to that all your female friends having sex all the time too, none of them getting pregnant. Be it due to low bodyfat, food, genetics or for whatever reason, Adem women don't get pregnant from having daily sex for years. Silkki fucked around with this message at 11:28 on May 16, 2012 |
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May 16, 2012 09:29
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Silkki posted:Be it due to low bodyfat, food, genetics or for whatever reason, Adem women don't get pregnant from having daily sex for years. I'm going to go with "lovely writing".
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May 16, 2012 12:12
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Flatscan posted:I'm going to go with "lovely writing". Nice and mature, nice and mature. If we go with that I am pretty sure everything in every book can be attributed to "Cause the writer wrote it so!" We need more awesome posts like this.
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May 16, 2012 16:51
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Silkki posted:Nice and mature, nice and mature.
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May 16, 2012 17:01
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Above Our Own posted:Actually he's dead on and your post was dumb. It's god awful writing and strains suspension of belief to the breaking point that a culture as long lived and advanced as the Adem, a culture that actively practices animal husbandry, wouldn't have realized that sex creates babies. It's stupid and has no basis. I am discussing why somethin in the books world is the way it is. And the "dead on" response to it is "lovely writing." ???? ???? ????? If I go to some other book threads and when people comment on stuff like "Why Gandalf do this and that" and randomly bomb them with "Cause Tolkien wrote so!" I predict I'll be banned in no time. Just because you think the writing in the book is poo poo doesn't mean you can bomb threads with "poo poo WRITING MAN!" whenever they talk about something that happens in the book. Posts like that add nothing to the discussion and are beside the point. Silkki fucked around with this message at 17:11 on May 16, 2012 |
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May 16, 2012 17:06
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Silkki posted:When I am talking about reason for why something doesn't happen in the book, inside that world. And the "dead on" response to it is "lovely writing." What Flatscan was saying is that the author has not provided a reasonable in-world explanation, and is inconsistent with both societies in his fiction and those in our real world. This is lovely writing and your comparison to Tolkein was especially braindead because of how thoroughly Tolkein planned out each and every minor detail in his work. You interpreted his post as saying, "because the author said so" which wasn't at all his point. He was saying, "the author hasn't provided reasonable rationale."
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May 16, 2012 17:17
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I don't necessarily think it's fair or accurate to conclude that, in Rothfuss' world, that Adem biology works the same as everyone else's and that as a civilization they just don't get it. I'd been assuming (like Silkki, it seems) that there is something different/unusual about Adem biology that makes their conclusion reasonable. Maybe it's simply that they've developed such physical control over their bodies that Ademic woman have to send a conscious signal to their womb that they're ready to reproduce? It definitely is a big thing to ask readers to swallow, but for me it worked to set up the Adem as a very alien people and culture, rather than pulling me out of the story. It's risky writing, but I don't know that I'd call it straight-out lovely.
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May 16, 2012 17:23
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Above Our Own posted:What Flatscan was saying is that the author has not provided a reasonable in-world explanation, and is inconsistent with both societies in his fiction and those in our real world. This I'll agree with. At the same time, Rothfuss isn't finished telling his story. Maybe he'll never come back to the topic of Ademic reproduction (I kinda hope he doesn't), but I think it would be more fair to give him a chance to tell his story at his own pace before deriding it because he hasn't given us all the answers yet.
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May 16, 2012 17:26
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I didn't say that Tolkien had done bad writing. I didn't even imply it. I love his books. When discussing motifs for a character within a book, say Gandalf for example. "Why did Gandalf decide to pick Bilbo?" the question at hand benefits NOTHING if someone decides to answer "Because the writing was so drat great!" When discussing why characters (Adem women) don't get pregnant. "poo poo writing" is simply beside the point. You feel it's idiotic thing that the Adem folk don't understand about sex? Fair enough. Does poo poo writing answer the question about why Adem women don't get pregnant spot on? No it doesn't. Edit: Also he only commented on the reason of why Adem don't get pregnant easily. Not on whole "It's a stretch to think Adem wouldn't know about sex!" Silkki fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 16, 2012 |
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May 16, 2012 17:26
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As part of the incredible rigors of the physical and mental training that all Adem women go through, they have chronic suppression of their preoptic anterior hypothalamus, resulting in diminished levels of gonadotropin-release hormone. Thus, they have amenorrhea or anovulatory cycles, so they can bang all day every day without getting pregnant.
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May 16, 2012 17:32
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I just took the whole thing to mean that Adem women were like the Bene Gesserit to a point. They could choose when to and when not to get pregnant. If you take it a bit further, the dialogue between Kvothe and the Adem where she said that women take the men's anger and use it later could have meant that they took the men's semen and kept some in the event they wanted to have a baby later. Its all a stretch, and if any of those are what Rothfuss was going for, he could've gotten the ideas across more clearly, but I simply refuse to believe that the Adem women thought men weren't necessary for procreation.
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May 16, 2012 18:11
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I fumed about the man-mother thing for like the space of one evening, and then I realized it was just one frustrating conversation spanning a couple of pages and had no real bearing on the plot, so I just ignored it. Plus I think we're all butthurt because it's a misandric idea and seems to be intended as justification for the Adem matriarchal culture. If whatserface had claimed that food wasn't necessary for survival and we only eat it for pleasure we probably wouldn't be discussing it at such length, even though it would be if anything more dumb.
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May 16, 2012 19:42
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