|
Konstantin posted:I'm surprised he lets the mark win at all. I've heard that some hustlers never let the mark win, instead they just keep the game close and win with what appears to be a lucky shot. The reason I don't usually win right away is because I have to build up their ego or confidence and let them think they can beat me. That is when I can make some serious money off someone. They win and get a false sense of confidence which in turn lets them make bad decisions against me. For instance the guy at Dave and Busters, if I would have just won 4 games in a row for $80 bucks more than likely he would have just stopped gambling with me. By letting him win I give him confidence and then his ego takes over and he can't help but gamble to try and beat me especially after he kicked my rear end 4 games in a row. It doesn't always work there are times that I lose money because either they figure it out or they are happy with what they won. That's part of the hustle and you just chalk it up as a loss and move on. Now if I am playing someone for big money especially someone who knows how good I shoot I do my best to win every match because at any time this guy will stop gambling with me especially if he gets ahead.
|
#
?
May 3, 2012 15:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 12:00 |
|
|
Great thread, great stories Jase. I worked at a pool hall for a little while in the early 90's and it was something else when a pro or vagabond shooter showed up. The higher the skill, the better placed cue ball was what I took from it. But, I need to bounce an old (true) story off you if you wouldn't mind. Me and a friend got hustled for $20 as teenagers at the local bowling alley, and thats the last time I bet on pool. We are dicking around on the tiny coin-op PoS table there. A fat old fart bumbles out of the Tap House bar stinking like stale beer. Says I need beer money, betcha $20 I sink the 8 ball on the break, if not I'll give you my watch (probably worth less than $20). We take his offer, he breaks, 8 ball sinks, he was already walking back for a beer with the bill in his hand. Thinking back on it now, was he lucky or what the gently caress did he do? Sorry that was 25 years ago or so and I was too young/surprised to note any details of his shot. We were most impressed though, to say the least. Oh for the folks worrying about ethics: Don't want to lose? Don't bet! (I don't bet) Herv fucked around with this message at 08:56 on May 4, 2012 |
|
#
?
May 4, 2012 08:49
|
|
|
Herv posted:But, I need to bounce an old (true) story off you if you wouldn't mind. He probably just mastered the 8 on the break shot which I talked about earlier in the thread. You are not guaranteed to make it every time, but if you learn how to do it it gives a major advantage when you break. Here is a video that explains how to do the 8 on the break shot he does a good job of explaining where and how to set up the shot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB705q8EwBg Last night a cash tourney started for the APA at a local bar and my girlfriend is on a team there so I went to watch. There was a guy who was ranked a 3 and he is playing a 7 so the race was 6-2. I watched the guy who was ranked a 3 hit 2 8 on the breaks back to back and he won the match. He is an awful shot but he mastered just that shot and it got him the win. The 7 was pissed because he never got a chance to even step up to the table. You can give yourself a huge advantage if you can master just the 8 on the break shot.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2012 19:12
|
|
|
Can you explain to me how to make the Cue-Ball stop after hitting the other balls? I had a match where this guy was doing this a lot. It was confusing as hell.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2012 21:24
|
|
|
You stun it. Which is to say you hit it hard enough that it doesn't actually roll forward or spin backwards as its traveling to the object ball, it just skids across the surface of the table. When it hits the object ball, all force is transferred to that ball, and the cue ball loses all it's momentum. Since it has no spin, it sits in place. You don't even have to hit it particularly hard to get this effect, either. The drawback to this is that you can only do this with straight on shots. Any other kind of shot will only transfer part of the cue ball's momentum to the object ball, and the cue ball will deflect off at it's natural angle.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2012 21:33
|
|
|
If you understand english at all basically you put a little bit of bottom english on it but not to much and the cueball will stop dead in its tracks. In order to draw the ball back you put lots of bottom english on it if you just aim a little lower then the center of the ball that will be enough to get the cueball to stop. Like SouthShoreSamurai said you can only do this on straight shots.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2012 21:38
|
|
|
Do you break differently on a non-regulation size table? I don't know the dimensions, but the ones at bars are usually quite a bit smaller than what you find in a billiards hall. Does the 8-ball break work on these tables? Where should I break from on them?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2012 22:22
|
|
|
muskrat posted:Does the 8-ball break work on these tables? Where should I break from on them? Well one thing I can confirm is that it definitely works on the small lovely bar tables. Was mentioned on this page.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2012 23:51
|
|
|
Really interesting thread! I put Poolhall Junkies on my netflix instant queue for tonight because of it. Do you see yourself passing your knowledge to your kids someday, like your Uncle did with you? Perhaps this could become a family trade  .
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2012 01:13
|
|
|
This thread is making me want to go to the pool place down the street and look for hustlers. OP, what do you normally wear when you are hustling? Does it depend on the place (try to blend in), or do you have "costumes" to make you appear a certain way? For instance, wearing a bunch of Ed Hardy or something to try to convince people to try and beat you.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2012 03:51
|
|
|
muskrat posted:Do you break differently on a non-regulation size table? I don't know the dimensions, but the ones at bars are usually quite a bit smaller than what you find in a billiards hall. I always break the same way every time. I shoot left handed and I line the ball up on the left side of the table and go for the 8 on the break. I do the same thing for 9 ball too. From my experience the 8 on the break shot works better on a bigger table because the balls will spread out more and prevent them from bumping the 8 out of its path to the side pocket or corner pocket. If you follow the video a few posts up you can do it exactly like he does every time. Eraser posted:Really interesting thread! I put Poolhall Junkies on my netflix instant queue for tonight because of it. Do you see yourself passing your knowledge to your kids someday, like your Uncle did with you? Perhaps this could become a family trade I don't ever plan of having kids because I don't want the responsibility but if I ever got married and decided to have a family I would have a pool table around and if they were interested I would have no problem teaching them how to shoot. I don't think I would want them to start hustling people just because you are around a lot of lovely influences but sometimes you can't control things like that. In the long run whatever made my kid happy I would support it. Professor Wayne posted:This thread is making me want to go to the pool place down the street and look for hustlers. I don't dress up in costumes or anything like that I usually just wear my normal style of clothing. It's usually jeans and a button up shirt or polo shirt or whatever I wore to work that day. Sometimes I am in a suit when I go to a bar after work and that has sometimes gotten me funny looks but I really don't pay to much attention to what I am wearing its more about how I am acting.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2012 15:14
|
|
|
What's the skill difference between you and the pros? Is it just consistency in general play/running out?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2012 06:05
|
|
|
AlMightyBawb posted:What's the skill difference between you and the pros? Is it just consistency in general play/running out? Pro's a different type of person they just live, eat and breathe pool. They just are so much more smarter and their shot selection is amazing they just know how to run our every time.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2012 20:22
|
|
|
Do you watch much snooker? The World Championships have just finished there. The control over the queue ball and the shots and angles they see are insane, and they do it on a table that's 12ft by 8ft.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2012 17:21
|
|
|
I just recently started watching those online when I have some time. I have been reading about it a little bit but it seems hard to grasp. The matches I watched though they made some fantastic shots and that table is huge. The commentating is a lot different than the commentating in American pool. They are much more excited for Snooker it seems. The commentators remind me of the same guys who do the dart matches.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2012 19:12
|
|
|
jase1 posted:I just recently started watching those online when I have some time. I have been reading about it a little bit but it seems hard to grasp. The matches I watched though they made some fantastic shots and that table is huge. The commentating is a lot different than the commentating in American pool. They are much more excited for Snooker it seems. The commentators remind me of the same guys who do the dart matches. Not sure whats difficult to grasp but then I grew up with the game so I guess everything becomes second nature. If you can find them (or if you're not already watching them) the BBC commentators are my favourites. I'd say it requires a lot more consistency than pool, and obviously tactical play and shot selection are extremely important but I can't really compare the two. Getting a 147 break is such a supreme achievement. [Edit] Additionally, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3C7I5lRZII is a thing. 147 in 5 minutes 20 seconds. That is an average of 10 seconds a shot, including the time it takes the referee to replace potted colours (give or take). Ronnie is insane when his head is in the game. Cast_No_Shadow fucked around with this message at 20:37 on May 9, 2012 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2012 20:23
|
|
|
Cast_No_Shadow posted:Not sure whats difficult to grasp but then I grew up with the game so I guess everything becomes second nature. All that is why its difficult to grasp. Why are there five extra ball on the table? How come if you don't have a shot you can make one of those extra balls into a pocket a short fat man runs over to take that ball back out to replace on the table as you get to shoot again? I'm guessing a 147 break is what we would say is running the table?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2012 22:30
|
|
|
It's actually pretty simple rules. You have to pot a red ball, then a colored ball. You keep doing that until the red balls are cleared. Each of the colored balls is worth a certain amount of points, 2-7. When you potted a colored ball, it is respotted on the table. Each red ball is worth 1 point. So it's possible to get 15 red balls, and pot the black ball (7 pts) after each red ball for a total of 120 pts. After all the reds are potted, you then shoot the coloured in order for a total of 2+3+4+5+6+7 = 27 pts. So if you play absolutely perfectly, you can score a 147. It probably isn't worth getting into just how ridiculously hard this is to do. SouthShoreSamurai fucked around with this message at 22:54 on May 9, 2012 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2012 22:46
|
|
|
SouthShoreSamurai posted:It's actually pretty simple rules. You have to pot a red ball, then a colored ball. You keep doing that until the red balls are cleared. Each of the colored balls is worth a certain amount of points, 2-7. When you potted a colored ball, it is respotted on the table. But red is a color! I played 8 ball yesterday and I got my last ball and the 8 ball in the same shot. I called out the pockets for both of them too. Is this alright? There was some argument. I assume normally this doesn't happen since showboating with money on the line is really stupid. \/\/ Thank you! I lost 
Uncle Jam fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 10, 2012 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2012 23:34
|
|
|
Uncle Jam posted:
APA says the 8 ball has to be a separate shot so you lost. Bar rules its whoever doesn't get tired of arguing first wins, I guess. http://www.poolplayers.com/m/teammanual/8-ball-rules-p3.html
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 00:34
|
|
|
jabro posted:All that is why its difficult to grasp. Why are there five extra ball on the table? How come if you don't have a shot you can make one of those extra balls into a pocket a short fat man runs over to take that ball back out to replace on the table as you get to shoot again? I'm guessing a 147 break is what we would say is running the table? What you appear to be describing there is a foul and a miss, similar to a scratch in pool. If you mess up like that your opponent gets 4 points for free and you can choose to force your opponent to have another go (maybe another 4 points, or probably even worse leave the cue ball in a bad position allowing the other player to build up a good break). The big difference between Snooker and pool is snooker is based on points. You get Red = 1 Yellow = 2 Green = 3 Brown = 4 Blue = 5 Pink = 6 Black = 7 The other guy explained how the flow of play goes (red, colour, red, colour, Yellow Green, brown, blue, pink, black). There are a few other small rules here and there but that's pretty much the gist. Oh and it's played on massive tables with tiny pockets.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 01:51
|
|
|
Jase, you mentioned you're from Ohio. Where at? I'm in Columbus. There's a handful of bars with free pool on certain nights so I've been playing a bunch. Ever been to Suzie-Cue's? It's a local pool hall.
DanManIt fucked around with this message at 02:04 on May 10, 2012 |
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 02:02
|
|
|
jase1 posted:I just recently started watching those online when I have some time. I have been reading about it a little bit but it seems hard to grasp. The matches I watched though they made some fantastic shots and that table is huge. The commentating is a lot different than the commentating in American pool. They are much more excited for Snooker it seems. The commentators remind me of the same guys who do the dart matches. The commentators are retired snooker professionals most of the time, so I wouldn't blame them if they got hot and sweaty over a good screw 
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 02:46
|
|
|
Snooker is fun (and hard) as hell. I've never played it in real life but it's one the games on Sierra's "Maximum Pool" (sorry that was the best video I could find), which is old as hell, like 2002, (previously known as Ultra Cool Pool and just Cool Pool before that), but it still works even on win7. I highly recommend it actually. The physics are good, the interface neat and clean, it covers a lot of the real things about pool (like english), follows APA rules (afaik) and the graphics barely look dated, other than being low-res. On top of that it's got fantasy pool games which are really very clever, (like the one you see in the video) but could never really be done in real life (except 24 Cents and Poker Pool, I guess). Probably the worst thing I can say about it is the computer AI is pretty lame. Even on "expert" setting it pretty much lets you win. The only way to make it more challenging is to turn off your own aids (lke the targeting stuff you see in the video). There's no way to make your computer opponent not play like a dope. I imagine one could get a copy for very cheap these days. (Fake edit: after doing a little more reading for this post, I think it might be legit abandonware now.) Sadly, Sierra turned off their multiplayer servers in like 2007, but I just recently learned there is (or was?) a project going on to keep it alive, but it looks like nothing's been updated for a while, so that party may be over. Anyway, sorry to go a bit off-topic. Really just wanted to say snooker kicks rear end and it kind of went from there. 
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 05:34
|
|
|
Cast_No_Shadow posted:[Edit] Additionally, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3C7I5lRZII is a thing. 147 in 5 minutes 20 seconds. That is an average of 10 seconds a shot, including the time it takes the referee to replace potted colours (give or take). Ronnie is insane when his head is in the game. Watch the game and try to predict his next shot while he's taking the current one. At the start you can see the players do safeties, leaving the reds clumped up so their opponent will be unlikely to do a run. O'Sullivan finally sinks one, and then alternates red and black for several shots. Pay attention during the red shots and try to imagine where he has to land the cue ball so he has a good shot on black, putting backspin so he has more room or to stop the cue ball's movement. You can see how good pool play is like chess, several moves ahead. Later at about the 3:00 mark you can see him put a ton of English while sinking the black so he can finally smash the cluster of reds without wasting his turn. For the shot immediately before that he used English to send the cue into the rail and the bounce back out for a good shot on the black. Just keep trying to anticipate where you'd like to have the cue ball for an easy shot on black, then watch how O'Sullivan sinks a red to make sure the cue ball ends up there. EDIT: Not a snooker player and only barely competent at pool, but this video really helped me understand the basics.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 14:42
|
|
|
Cast_No_Shadow posted:[Edit] Additionally, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3C7I5lRZII is a thing. 147 in 5 minutes 20 seconds. That is an average of 10 seconds a shot, including the time it takes the referee to replace potted colours (give or take). Ronnie is insane when his head is in the game. This was really good and I enjoyed it. I then found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAyAdzsirE0 Ronnie, no poo poo, holds up play at the beginning of the frame asking if there is a prize for a 147 break. Like he stops playing and says please find out. Everyone is like really wtf and eventually the umpire guy just says I don't think there is one bro. Ronnie says pfft and then runs out with a mad 147 break! It's really ridiculous, at around 6:35 there is an insane shot, you have to watch it a couple of times to believe it. What a cheeky awesome fucker
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 15:41
|
|
|
Ronnie's the most naturally talented snooker player ever, fucker is amazing. Seriously practicing at snooker helps with pool as well,, once you've been playing regularly on a larger table, long pots on a pool one seem smaller and easier.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 16:44
|
|
|
Tony Montana posted:Ronnie, no poo poo, holds up play at the beginning of the frame asking if there is a prize for a 147 break. Like he stops playing and says please find out. Everyone is like really wtf and eventually the umpire guy just says I don't think there is one bro. Haha, I like the expression on his opponent's face just before they resume play. You can tell he's thinking "I'm probably not going to get another shot, am I?".
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 22:46
|
|
God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
|
Fat Guy Sexting posted:Seriously practicing at snooker helps with pool as well,, once you've been playing regularly on a larger table, long pots on a pool one seem smaller and easier.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2012 22:54
|
|
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6KOkkPPYiw&feature=related Interview after that 147. Terrible sound quality, but I love how cheeky he is. "I knew there wasn't any prize money for the 147 but I thought I'd played badly the last frame so I thought I'd give myself something to go for and let everyone know I was going for it" "I also love winding people up a bit" If you're not good at understanding British accents you have no chance with this video.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2012 14:19
|
|
|
Snooker is only probably hard for me to grasp because I am only reading about it or watching videos. I am not playing snooker everyday and no one around here that I know plays it. I would be curious to see how I would do. From just watching the videos the shots that he makes are not really hard shots especially since its such a huge table. Its all about cue ball control which is a huge part of American pool. I am curious about the pockets though because your precision has to be dead on with pockets shaped like that and they seem to be smaller than regular pool tables. I am going to Vegas next week so I am going to see if there is any tables around there I might try to shoot a few times at a snooker table if one is available.DanManIt posted:Jase, you mentioned you're from Ohio. Where at? I'm in Columbus. There's a handful of bars with free pool on certain nights so I've been playing a bunch. Ever been to Suzie-Cue's? It's a local pool hall. I am in the Cleveland area and I go to Columbus a lot because I have family there but I don't usually shoot a lot of pool in that area. The family I visit there are really religious and stay away from bars and stuff like that so I don't usually get time unless I am there for other reasons. There have been a few times I went down to high street and hustled some college kids but I can't remember the names of any bars I went too. Tom who I have mentioned in this thread a few times finally challenged me again Tuesday night. I was at a friends house who is a collector of craft beers, he does this beer trading thing and he always get these awesome beers from other states so I usually go over there and try them. So after we are hanging out a for a few hours I am pretty drunk and my friend tells me that Tom offered him half of what he wins if I am ever drunk somewhere and he lets him know to come play me. I tell him to let Tom know I am here and I am drunk. He lets Tom know and in 20 minutes Tom shows up and demands to shoot me right now. I say ok and we all go to the bar of his choosing. He racks them I break and I literally miss the 8 on the break by about 2 inches but it doesn't matter I run out instantly and let him know that since I am up 3-0 now, I am going to make him sweat it for awhile. I get to choose the time and place of the last location where we play. I am petty sure he is going to try and buy out of the bet but I wont take anything under $350 and I might not even accept that. I just need to beat him one game now to win $500. The best part about this story is he was with this girl that he has been trying to impress and get in her pants. Supposedly he is still talking poo poo about me and made it seem like he was going to kick my rear end Tuesday night and have $500 bucks in hand. Well after he lost he left but this girl stayed and my friend was talking to her a little bit and she said this kid is unbelievable. He keeps lying to her about having all this money but yet they don't go out and do anything and he is always broke. We were ripping on him a little bit and after we told her a couple of stories she ended up leaving with my buddy. So I kind of feel responsible for not only taking his money but also being a part of helping my friend steal his girl. He is just in way over his head, he is trying to hang with the local gamblers but he can't cut it and its kind of funny and sad at the same time. I see a lot of younger guys just like him. They want to gamble and live a fast lifestyle but they don't have the money for it so they usually get themselves in deep poo poo. Hopefully he figures it out before he gets too deep but I just don't think that will happen. His ego is way to big and he has an addictive personality too so he drinks to much and does way to many drugs. That's just my opinion though.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2012 18:14
|
|
|
More stories please. I always love when this thread fills up with more responses. Thanks for the awesome thread.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2012 11:26
|
|
|
Do you see pool declining as a sport due to videogames / etc. or is it growing? Who are some of the most legendary pool players?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2012 02:05
|
|
|
jase1 posted:Snooker is only probably hard for me to grasp because I am only reading about it or watching videos. I am not playing snooker everyday and no one around here that I know plays it. I would be curious to see how I would do. From just watching the videos the shots that he makes are not really hard shots especially since its such a huge table. Its all about cue ball control which is a huge part of American pool. I am curious about the pockets though because your precision has to be dead on with pockets shaped like that and they seem to be smaller than regular pool tables. I am going to Vegas next week so I am going to see if there is any tables around there I might try to shoot a few times at a snooker table if one is available. I was never a good pool player but I did play some. Then one night we went to a pool hall that had a snooker table. The test was to put the cue ball on one end on the table and a red ball on the middle and simply shoot the long diagonal. I think the success rate was 10%.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2012 10:04
|
|
|
Ethanfr0me posted:Do you see pool declining as a sport due to videogames / etc. or is it growing? Who are some of the most legendary pool players? I don't see it declining because every bar I go into or pool hall is filled with people playing. I think leagues do a good job of keeping people interested in the sport and as long as there are bars around people will shoot pool. I really don't even know if the sport is in decline or not I don't pay to much attention to the actual professional part of it. In my opinion the best pool player ever is Efren Rays. He is called the magician and he deserves that nickname because he is amazing at playing safes or getting himself out of crazy situations. I don't know if he plays snooker but I do know that he is considered to be the best at any billiards game. This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efren_Reyes gives a little overview of his life and accomplishments. I would hope one day there would be a movie based on his life because he is such an interesting person. Here is a video with some commentary about the incredible shots he makes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocXrswOU1o When I have some more time I will put a little post together talking about some legendary pool players.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2012 21:55
|
|
|
If you get on youtube you can find his "color of money" race to 120 wins in 9ball against Earl Strickland in its entirety. It is incredibly long with poor video quality, but it is awesome, and the finish is outstanding. I love seeing Earl get pissed 
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2012 23:39
|
|
|
Jaweeeblop posted:If you get on youtube you can find his "color of money" race to 120 wins in 9ball against Earl Strickland in its entirety. It is incredibly long with poor video quality, but it is awesome, and the finish is outstanding. I love seeing Earl get pissed I have watched that match at least 30 times with my uncles. Earl blew a 17 game lead and just started being a dick. You can see every time when he gets up to the table and shoots he just slams the balls. He was always considered a sore loser and a dick. Here is the final 2 games in the series and at 4:17 in the vid Efren makes an unbelievable cut shot on the 7 ball and not only does he make it but he leaves himself in perfect position to run out. He is the greatest pool player ever in my opinion coming back from 17 games down and winning 100k like nothing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJK9pshv3L4 Here is another video of him just being a dick in the UK. The guy loves to get people to hate him especially if he is losing, he takes it out on everyone else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRN8MDhQIUM
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2012 01:15
|
|
|
I've been watching some of these snooker clips on youtube. I never realized you're not supposed to totally split up the pack on the first shot like in other pool games. Suddenly I'm playing a lot better. (Not real life, sadly, just against the computer.)
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2012 02:32
|
|
|
jase1 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRN8MDhQIUM Yeah, what a ridiculous dickhead. The English can be like us Aussies, or the other way round because we're one of their colonies, but the quickest way to be disliked by everyone and ridiculed is think you're something special and starting acting like it. Like telling the ref to shut up, just who the gently caress do you think you are? It's not that he is American, it's that he is a massive dick. But I think that because I do things like spend a lot of time here, so I'm one of the first to say 'there are 300 million Americans, they're not all the same..'. But this guy furthers that perception unfortunately, and you'd hope someone would tell him 'when you go overseas you're representing us and you're making us look like a bunch of dickheads' but I'm sure this guy wouldn't listen.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2012 04:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 12:00 |
|
|
Tony Montana posted:Yeah, what a ridiculous dickhead. The English can be like us Aussies, or the other way round because we're one of their colonies, but the quickest way to be disliked by everyone and ridiculed is think you're something special and starting acting like it. He really isn't that bad of a person, he just has a short fuse and doesn't know how to control his emotions. Cherry picking videos of him being a douche is a lot more fun than posting videos of him giving one on one lessons and having cordial conversations with fans.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2012 04:58
|
|