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While I think it's entirely possible that Rothfuss thought this out and is saying or implying something about the Adem's physiology or society, his general approach to sexuality makes me think it's a hell of a lot more likely he just wanted sexy ninjas to have funny beliefs about sex.
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May 16, 2012 19:44
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Above Our Own posted:Actually he's dead on and your post was dumb. It's god awful writing and strains suspension of belief to the breaking point that a culture as long lived and advanced as the Adem, a culture that actively practices animal husbandry, wouldn't have realized that sex creates babies. It's stupid and has no basis. Oh lord, yes. That's an absolute contradiction to their beliefs. Thanks for pointing that out, I can't believe I missed it. The whole Adem thing makes no sense at all even in-universe.
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May 16, 2012 21:20
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So I haven't visited this thread in awhile and I think I missed a lot. I finished the first book awhile ago and loved it, and I am 76 pages into The Wise Man's Fear. Am I in for a poo poo time? Kvothe's god-modding doesn't bother me that much since I have watched so much god awful anime and have become used to it.
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May 16, 2012 21:27
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RebBrownies posted:I finished the first book awhile ago and loved it, and I am 76 pages into The Wise Man's Fear. Am I in for a poo poo time? Nah, you're fine. There are two big points in WMF that are brought up again and again, the Felurian chapters and the Adem reproduction theory. One of those is like a chapter long and the other is like a throwaway half a page. If you can ignore those, you'll be fine.
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May 16, 2012 21:33
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Notahippie posted:While I think it's entirely possible that Rothfuss thought this out and is saying or implying something about the Adem's physiology or society, his general approach to sexuality makes me think it's a hell of a lot more likely he just wanted sexy ninjas to have funny beliefs about sex. This is what I took from the book, it's just another case of Rothfuss seeing women as "the Other" and not normal like every dude ever born. They exist solely to be Kvothe's ninja skill teachers slash gently caress buddies, and the bizarre notion about how babies are made is just an afterthought stuck in there to give their culture some color, painting the matriarchal society as silly and narcissistic. For whatever it's worth, even though I had some problems with Kvothe and the characterization of Denna, I still was enjoying the story right up to Felurian. Basically sex ruined everything in this book, including the Adem.
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May 16, 2012 21:34
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gouge away posted:For whatever it's worth, even though I had some problems with Kvothe and the characterization of Denna, I still was enjoying the story right up to Felurian. Basically sex ruined everything in this book, including the Adem. The sex scenes were meant to subvert the prudish nature of earlier fantasy fiction. I'll give him some credit for trying, but I have to agree with you. The book might have been better without it.
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May 16, 2012 22:16
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gouge away posted:This is what I took from the book, it's just another case of Rothfuss seeing women as "the Other" and not normal like every dude ever born. They exist solely to be Kvothe's ninja skill teachers slash gently caress buddies, and the bizarre notion about how babies are made is just an afterthought stuck in there to give their culture some color, painting the matriarchal society as silly and narcissistic. Imagine there's this race of super hot ninjas who want to have sex with guys at the drop of a hat. And here's the best part: they don't see men as having any connection with reproduction! If you knock up a lady ninja and skip town, she won't see any problem with it!
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May 17, 2012 01:05
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keiran_helcyan posted:Imagine there's this race of super hot ninjas who want to have sex with guys at the drop of a hat. And here's the best part: they don't see men as having any connection with reproduction! If you knock up a lady ninja and skip town, she won't see any problem with it!
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May 17, 2012 02:47
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xyzzyx posted:The sex scenes were meant to subvert the prudish nature of earlier fantasy fiction. I'll give him some credit for trying, but I have to agree with you. The book might have been better without it. What, really? I know he accused people of being prudes about their being weirded out by the Felurian chapters, but I thought that was him explaining away their criticisms rather than actually deliberately trying to upset the status quo.
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May 17, 2012 04:57
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keiran_helcyan posted:Imagine there's this race of super hot ninjas who want to have sex with guys at the drop of a hat. And here's the best part: they don't see men as having any connection with reproduction! If you knock up a lady ninja and skip town, she won't see any problem with it! Also there are no gay people. In this completely sexually liberal society that hasn't figured out the link between sex and reproduction, and if you think about it for 5 minutes probably wouldn't even have a concept of heterosexuality. (I'm not accussing him of being homophobic, just saying stuff like that and the animal husbandry thing makes it pretty clear his aim in writing about them was less building up a consistent believable society, and more convoluted excuses for sex ninjas). People harp on about the sex in the books because it looks like in the end, what his writing is really about is creepy wish fulfillment. Stuff like that is just where it comes out most garishly.
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May 17, 2012 11:55
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To be "fair", Kvothe even asked the sex-ninja about cats reproducing or some such and her answer was "we're not animals". So the animal husbandry thing was kinda-sorta addressed a bit.
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May 17, 2012 12:41
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Rothfuss (kinda) answered a bunch of questions about the story. Part 1: http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/?wbtrak=NGZiNTNmYWQtMTg4OGU3NTM= Part 2: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/05/rothfuss-reread-pat-answers-the-admissions-questions
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May 17, 2012 19:37
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Melche posted:Also there are no gay people. It was directly stated that the guys that run the Iolian(sp?) are gay. And it was implied that one of the patrons at the bar was interested in picking up Kvothe. One of the false troupers was repeatedly harassed by one of the other guys for being gay. The focus of the story is on Kvothe, so it's easy to miss the few times it's mentioned.
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May 17, 2012 19:46
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I think he specifically meant in the Adem culture.
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May 17, 2012 21:58
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Above Our Own posted:What Flatscan was saying is that the author has not provided a reasonable in-world explanation, and is inconsistent with both societies in his fiction and those in our real world. Exactly. It's Fantasy so you can get away with all kinds of weird poo poo, but it has to be internally consistent within the narrative. The way it's presented just reeks of sloppy writing, something that wasn't fully considered before being written and should of either been dropped or heavily reworked during the drafting process.
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May 17, 2012 22:07
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UGH those interviews are so awful
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May 17, 2012 22:23
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:I think he specifically meant in the Adem culture. Yeah exactly, like I said I wasn't accusing him of being homophobic for not having enough representation of gay people overall or anything. I was saying with the Adem he wrote up a society of total sexual permissiveness and didn't have a single mention of it, although it would clearly be a logical inevitable part of their culture. Which to my mind kind of undermines the idea that he's trying to invent an interesting consistent culture, rather than writing Captain Bonesalot meets harkavagrant's Strong Independent Characters with a hand down his pants.
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May 17, 2012 22:38
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anathenema posted:What, really? I know he accused people of being prudes about their being weirded out by the Felurian chapters, but I thought that was him explaining away their criticisms rather than actually deliberately trying to upset the status quo. I felt that way too when I saw that interview. Mostly because it's hard to buy his argument that fantasy fans are prudes when ASoIaF is popular as heck and will stay that way for quite some time thanks to the tv series. And I'm not a huge fantasy reader by any means but I'm under the impression that sex and the occasional rape scene aren't exactly uncommon sights in modern fantasy.
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May 18, 2012 07:07
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Srice posted:I felt that way too when I saw that interview. Mostly because it's hard to buy his argument that fantasy fans are prudes when ASoIaF is popular as heck and will stay that way for quite some time thanks to the tv series. And I'm not a huge fantasy reader by any means but I'm under the impression that sex and the occasional rape scene aren't exactly uncommon sights in modern fantasy. Yeah. I mean, if this was the 80s still, I could understand the sentiment more. But that ship has sailed, and long since.
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May 18, 2012 07:18
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What other books should I put on my 'must read' list if I'm enjoying Rothfuss' stuff. Granted, its not the best literature around, but I enjoy stuff that's "easy to read".
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May 18, 2012 12:25
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Flatscan posted:The way it's presented just reeks of sloppy writing, something that wasn't fully considered before being written and should of either been dropped or heavily reworked during the drafting process. So I take it that you feel that Adem women not getting pregnant is sloppy writing and something that wasn't fully considered. They should instead be pregnant, have less sex or use contraceptives. Awesome that I understand you now. For some while I thought you took the whole 'Adem not understanding how babies are made thingy' to the picture over there. Cause that would have been beside the point. Silkki fucked around with this message at 12:59 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 12:53
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If he wanted to upset the fantasy status quo he should have written some kind of normal romance for his hero instead of a unique snowflake dream girl and a magical sex goddess. Just saying.
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May 18, 2012 13:16
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Phummus posted:What other books should I put on my 'must read' list if I'm enjoying Rothfuss' stuff. Granted, its not the best literature around, but I enjoy stuff that's "easy to read". Abercrombie's First Law series are good and quick and easy reads. Maybe Brandon Sanderson stuff too, although I'm not sure what specifically by him. The Mistborn series I guess. e: I hate so much when authors/people defend questionable events by stating, welp they were/are just trying to subvert convention. Like subverting convention gives someone a free pass to be beyond criticism or something. Not to mention nowadays, it seems to be the convention to try to subvert convention, if that makes sense. So It Goes fucked around with this message at 17:30 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 17:27
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Phummus posted:What other books should I put on my 'must read' list if I'm enjoying Rothfuss' stuff. Granted, its not the best literature around, but I enjoy stuff that's "easy to read". After Rothfuss, I read Scott Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamora, which totally owns. then I read Abercrombie's The First Law and his other two books, which own even more. After that, I picked up Sanderson's Mistborn, which is pretty cool despite a massive shift in tone after the first book. I'm out of poo poo to read now. I tried to do The Malazan Book of the Fallen, but I can't get through it.
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May 19, 2012 01:21
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Aggro posted:After Rothfuss, I read Scott Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamora, which totally owns. then I read Abercrombie's The First Law and his other two books, which own even more. After that, I picked up Sanderson's Mistborn, which is pretty cool despite a massive shift in tone after the first book. I agree with this post. I wouldn't recommend going through all of First Law at once, despite how good it is; it's a goddamn downer. Mistborn's great and is a good introduction to Sanderson (pop into the thread if you want a more detailed recommendation). I'd probably recommend Lies of Locke Lamora above them all, though, because it's a fantastic, well-written thrill ride with great characters and story and world and seriously it's 100% great why are you reading my lovely post read the book.
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May 19, 2012 01:27
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Sophia posted:If he wanted to upset the fantasy status quo he should have written some kind of normal romance for his hero instead of a unique snowflake dream girl and a magical sex goddess. Just saying. Thanks, that sums up my own thoughts pretty well.
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May 19, 2012 03:23
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Well those were really just normal run-of-the mill everyday ninjas.
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May 19, 2012 03:36
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soru posted:Well those were really just normal run-of-the mill everyday ninjas. He's also very good at prose and his worlds have a Tolkeinesque focus on etymology and development of in-word societal myths and history, which adds a much needed level of depth to his world. However his settings are horribly cliched and his characters are mostly just boring one-dimensional plot movers and his narrative structure wanders incoherently. Then there's the PUA attitudes and high school level of emotional maturity demonstrated by most of the cast.
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May 19, 2012 03:42
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Above Our Own posted:The only thing remotely original or interesting in Rothfuss' work is his approach to magic. Sympathy is well thought out and highly believable since its workings stem from real thermodynamics. It makes for some genuinely compelling wizardry because it has understandable limitations. But then I read Rothfuss' blog and that has basically shattered the illusion. At this point I pretty much have to go into full on cognitive dissonance mode and read everything with Denna as if Rothfuss actually knew what the hell he was writing and hold out hope that the third book won't have too much poo poo to collapse that cognitive dissonance. Oh well! It's still pretty writing some of the time, and like you said the sympathy stuff is neat.
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May 19, 2012 04:03
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Above Our Own posted:The only thing remotely original or interesting in Rothfuss' work is his approach to magic. Sympathy is well thought out and highly believable since its workings stem from real thermodynamics. It makes for some genuinely compelling wizardry because it has understandable limitations. I pretty much agree with all of this but it's funny what varying degrees this affects people's enjoyment of this book. Like, despite agreeing completely with all of the criticisms, I still really enjoyed both of these books because the etymological and mythical development of the world is fascinating to me, and Rothfuss' prose honestly is pretty good. The chapters with Elodin teaching naming for example are great, and really the entire concept of naming magic and alars and stuff is good. Even stuff like the Felurian chapters gives rise to great mythology tidbits and the Ctheah giving it at least merit to the narrative. But all that said, holy poo poo is Deena a lovely and unlikeable character and her relationship with Kvothe is just awful in so many different ways.
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May 19, 2012 04:27
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I still think the books are more self aware of Denna than most people are giving credit. No one but Kvothe really has a super high opinion of her, Bast pretty clearly thinks she's nothing special in the frame to her introduction and in story pretty much all of Kvothe's friends think he's an idiot about her and he should shut the hell up about her. Its always rough, especially in a story told on two levels like this, to figure out if the Denna stuff is just Kvothe being an overly romantic idiot or if we're supposed to buy it. I'm withholding judgement on it, and a lot of the other stuff, until we see it through the eyes of the omniscient narrator in the frame. If it agrees with Kvothe I'll totally buy into more of the anti-Rothfuss sentiment.
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May 19, 2012 05:04
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Above Our Own posted:high school level of emotional maturity demonstrated by most of the cast. The cast are teenagers. 
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May 19, 2012 05:44
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Zore posted:If it agrees with Kvothe I'll totally buy into more of the anti-Rothfuss sentiment.
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May 19, 2012 05:45
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soru posted:The cast are teenagers.
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May 19, 2012 05:50
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TychoCelchuuu posted:I tried as hard as I could to avoid this conclusion for as long as possible by telling myself that (1) it's a tragedy, and adult Kvothe, who is one part fuckup, one part has-been, one part loser, and one part depressed shadow of his former self, so therefore the ridiculous way he acts must eventually bite him in the rear end, (2) he's young, extremely talented, and extremely arrogant, so it makes sense that he'd be kind of... not quite emotionally developed, and (3) the whole framing of the possibly unreliable narrator leaves lots of leeway for things to actually have been a lot more reasonable. I concur with all of the above and still love the series. I am a horrible person with cheap taste.
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May 19, 2012 06:09
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xyzzyx posted:I concur with all of the above and still love the series. Ah yes well I love it too. I'm not going to stack it up next to Faulkner or Hemingway but I'll be the first to admit that I can't wait to read the third book and that I was extremely satisfied with the second, Felurian and all.
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May 19, 2012 06:24
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I enjoy calling my kitty "Cthaeh". Every time he meows, he's destroying my life.
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May 19, 2012 11:20
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Silkki posted:I didn't say that Tolkien had done bad writing. I didn't even imply it. I love his books. Welp, that was the only part of your previous post I agreed with and now you take it back?
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May 25, 2012 13:14
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xyzzyx posted:Oh lord, yes. That's an absolute contradiction to their beliefs. Thanks for pointing that out, I can't believe I missed it. The whole Adem thing makes no sense at all even in-universe. I believe Kvothe specifically asks a question about this, and the answer is something like "those are animals, we are Adem. would you blah blah blah some other animal comparison?"
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May 30, 2012 20:11
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I enjoy calling my kitty "Cthaeh". Every time he meows, he's destroying my life. Time to change the name of one of my guinea pigs. Every time they squeak for veggies, they really mean to bring about absolute human misery!
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May 31, 2012 18:06
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