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veekie posted:It took me rereading the series backwards to really see the progression. Its a sign of how well hes sinking into madness that we're taking his insanity for granted. Particularly as he goes from ignoring the voice in his head, to ranting at the voice and then worse, holding actual conversations with said voice. The problem with that theory being that the voice also starts telling Rand things he cannot possibly know himself, indicating that Lews Therin is real.
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May 19, 2012 23:21
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Jedit posted:The problem with that theory being that the voice also starts telling Rand things he cannot possibly know himself, indicating that Lews Therin is real. Spoiled for minor ambiguity that gets cleared up in later books; To paraphrase Semirhage, that the voices in his head are actually REAL and having actual productive conversations with him and occasionally taking control of his actions just makes his insanity that much more serious than plain jane schizophrenia because that makes it much easier to listen to the crazyman in his skull. Another male channeler would "merely" have to deal with reverting to a childlike state, or seeing myrdrall coalesce in the shadows but Rand's insanity is made worse by literally remembering his previous life via the manifested voice of Lews Therin who is, not "was" but IS, every bit as nuts as on the day he died. Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 23:35 on May 19, 2012 |
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May 19, 2012 23:32
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Jedit posted:The problem with that theory being that the voice also starts telling Rand things he cannot possibly know himself, indicating that Lews Therin is real. The insanity bit is where he gives it a voice and personality as a vent for his mental state. Anything that goes wrong gets blamed on Lews Therin's madness so he can keep telling himself he is still sane.
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May 19, 2012 23:33
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It's important to realize that Rand's going crazy for two entirely separate reasons: 1) the whole taint thing, and also 2) holy poo poo, you people expect me to do what? I'm just a guy! Part of what Jordan was trying to do in WoT is write "hero saves world" epic fantasy with a higher degree of psychological realism than had been done previously -- in the original concept, the protagonist was a war veteran (basically, that became Tam's character instead), with all we know now that implies. The idea was at least in part to show what that kind of pressure and stress would actually do to the Prophesied Hero. So sometimes Rand's crazy because he's got LTT in his head and sometimes he's just in the throes of epic-level traumatic stress disorder.
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May 20, 2012 01:03
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I like getting to see Rand from another character's POV, it really shows just how insane he must appear to others. It's not that painfully obvious when you see things from his side. As for the 2 reasons for going crazy, I always feel bad for Rand when other characters think he must be nuts when he's just under a lot of pressure. 
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May 20, 2012 01:12
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End of Book 6-Rest of Series Spoilers Let's not forget the episode at the end of book 6. He's already on the cusp of madness before he's locked in a box for a week or however long, by the end of that time he and LTT are on first name basis. Not only does he have the taint and the pressures of statehood making him crazy, he's not really paranoid because people are not only out to get him, but they want to lock him in a box and hold him prisoner. It's a funny madness though. Mostly it's anger, which frankly is justified, plus a distrust of most people, which is also justified. He can still trust though, which shows he isn't so far gone. Hes also feeling a lot of guilt, which puts more pressure on him. Plus people are still willing to put up with his crazy antics, which doesnt help him realiza how crazy he must be acting.That quote by Bashere about the willingness to follow an insane captain because he wins battles fits nicely in here. Maybe this is the point for Cadsuane. She's supposed to be the voice of reason to show the reader just how mad he is. I never thought about that before. I do remember that the power does wind up going to his head, but he never forgets that he is human. Even before his most infamous act the bale firing of Graendal, he has to make sure that the people she has mentally hosed up are beyond recovery. I love how his slow descent to madness is made understandable by reading things from his point of view. Very few authors are willing to tackle the why of insanity the way Jordan does, in a very reasoned and realistic way. Hobbes24 fucked around with this message at 19:55 on May 20, 2012 |
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May 20, 2012 16:34
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This is about Rand: There's also his whole self-hating thing every time a woman dies. It was pretty chilling seeing him get locked up in Far Madding, and rather than try to find a way to escape, or keep himself active to keep his mind fresh, he actively makes a choice to sit down and torment himself in the interests of making himself 'harder'. I didn't really realise just how close he came to being flipped to the Dark Side until the end of TGS, when he realises just how loving insane he is.
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May 20, 2012 21:29
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Two Finger posted:This is about Rand: That whole experience must have been grueling though, with the claustrophobia and all. So grueling, that everyone bonded to him was freaking the gently caress out if I remember correctly.
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May 21, 2012 13:34
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So I'm up to Winter's Heart currently, and something that has been confusing me for several books. The Seanchan have shown up several times throughout the story, and on pretty much every occasion there have been at least some Aes Sedai that have been collared with an a'dam. Do they just use Aes Sedai for non-combat purposes? I mean, the three oaths are pretty binding, and I don't see how using an a'dam would bypass the oaths. The only thing I can figure out is that I guess when the Nynaeve is controlling Moghedien via the a'dam, it seems like Nynaeve has a pretty direct control and awareness of the flows, so is that how they get around it? That they, technically, aren't using the power for a weapon, but the Sul'dam is? Also, when Egwene is first collared, her Sul'dam suggests that the Seanchan can make ter'angreal, or at least more a'dam. Wouldn't this violate the oath about making weapons with the power? Afterall, an a'dam is basically a weapon to use against women who can channel. So are Aes Sedai damane just used for like, healing, skylights, construction projects, fortune telling, and the like? Or do the Seanchan have some sort of method of bypassing the oaths to use the Aes Sedai in combat?
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May 21, 2012 14:49
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I don't think it's ever explicitly stated, but they did mention that they absolutely, positively could not get an Aes Sedai to tell a lie. And you can probably picture how hard they tried. I don't remember the exact details, but I think it was some Seanchan saying, "Huh, I'm pretty sure these Aes Sedai aren't lying about their Three Oaths." Since I don't ever recall one actually using the Power as a weapon while collared, and it'd probably be mentioned if it they were able to get around one Oath but not another, I think they're next useless as weapons. But, the Seanchan do seem to use their slave labor demigods to full effect given the whole finding ores thing.
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May 21, 2012 15:02
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I don't think it's ever explicitly stated, but they did mention that they absolutely, positively could not get an Aes Sedai to tell a lie. And you can probably picture how hard they tried. I don't remember the exact details, but I think it was some Seanchan saying, "Huh, I'm pretty sure these Aes Sedai aren't lying about their Three Oaths." Remember too that Aes Sedai can use the power as a weapon 'in the last defense of her life, her Warders life or the life of another sister' so to use their collared Aes Sedai as weapons they just need to place them, or another one, in imminent danger. Hell they might get away with it by telling them if they don't attack they'll be killed depending on how the individual Aes Sedai interprets her oath. And Aes Sedai can still do a lot of stuff in battle that isn't using the one power as a weapon like shields of air, healing, walls of earth/fire etc.
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May 21, 2012 16:33
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Zore posted:And Aes Sedai can still do a lot of stuff in battle that isn't using the one power as a weapon like shields of air, healing, walls of earth/fire etc. You can knock Healing out of the equation, as one Seanchan POV has someone wondering how anyone could bear to be touched by the Power like that. They're all crazed saidarphobes.
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May 21, 2012 18:04
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You know, speaking about characters going crazy, Nynaeve's character makes a whole lot more sense if you read her as being in a near-constant state of nervous breakdown.
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May 21, 2012 18:43
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I do recall some Seanchan mentioning that ex-AS damane were of no use as weapons.
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May 21, 2012 20:45
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Minarch posted:You know, speaking about characters going crazy, Nynaeve's character makes a whole lot more sense if you read her as being in a near-constant state of nervous breakdown. You could say that about all of the characters, and I'd agree. One of my favorite things about the series is how they react in a relatively believable way to the incredible stresses they're all under. Even Elayne, or Perrin and Faile's annoyingly dysfunctional relationship, are more forgivable in that context. I know I can turn into a real shitheel when I'm stressed because I had a bad day at work, I can't imagine what it'd be like to be around me if I had to deal with the poo poo any one of these dudes go through.
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May 21, 2012 20:58
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This week, Lord of Chaos chapters 9-23
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May 21, 2012 23:03
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Ethereal Duck posted:That whole experience must have been grueling though, with the claustrophobia and all. So grueling, that everyone bonded to him was freaking the gently caress out if I remember correctly. I seem to recall a particular passage about him 'patiently forging his soul in the fires of pain,' and Min going HOLY poo poo IF HE WAS STONE BEFORE HE'S IRON NOW. So he did it to himself, really. Not that I'm taking away from how hosed up the situation was - I've been tied up with a pillowcase over my head before and it wasn't much fun, and I didn't even get beaten!
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May 22, 2012 05:10
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Two Finger posted:Rand again, circa Winter's Heart The thing is you have to be pretty hosed up to do that to yourself in the first place. He thinks its the only way to stay sane at that point, because hes too nuts to look at it objectively anymore.
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May 22, 2012 08:36
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Ugh I hate the Elayne and Nynaeve at the circus chapters in FoH...
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May 24, 2012 16:44
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Chamberk posted:Ugh I hate the Elayne and Nynaeve at the circus chapters in FoH... Without a doubt my least favorite part of the entire series short of Faile's roughly six thousand years with the Shaido.
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May 24, 2012 17:14
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Chamberk posted:Ugh I hate the Elayne and Nynaeve at the circus chapters in FoH... Can't you pretty much just say "I hate the Elayne and Nynaeve at the <fill in the blank> chapters"? Fill in the blank can be the circus, Salidar, Ebou Dar, the Kin's farm, ... I'm sure there are more, but that's all I've gotten to so far (just started Book 8). As mentioned earlier in the thread, my first time through the series I only made it to Book 6. Now that I've read 7 and working on 8, I completely understand what all the complaining is about. It takes a book and a half to find a crystal bowl hidden in a rundown house in Ebou Dar; Rand spends two and a half books plotting to take out Sammael only to have him killed? by Mashadar; and all the while, every women who can channel is bitchy to every other woman who can channel. At least Book 7 ended on a fairly exciting note with the invasion of Ebou Dar by the Seanchan and a cliffhanger for Mat. But then how does Jordan start Book 8? With a step back in time to a catfight between women who can channel, who would rather spend their time looking down their noses at each other than running for safety. This is bad, this is really bad.
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May 24, 2012 17:16
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By far the absolute worst Elayne chapter in the entire series is the rebirth scene where she becomes Aviendha's "sister." Whenever I read it, I feel an immediate need to watch football, drink beer, play call of duty, or put Terminator in the DVD player.
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May 24, 2012 17:24
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Cartoon Man posted:By far the absolute worst Elayne chapter in the entire series is the rebirth scene where she becomes Aviendha's "sister." Whenever I read it, I feel an immediate need to watch football, drink beer, play call of duty, or put Terminator in the DVD player. How long do I have to wait for this glorious moment? You know, when Elayne was a giddy little novice in the Tower, she wasn't so bad. Now that she's decided to queen over everyone, she's just a pain to read about. I thought maybe the "outsiders" Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve would be a positive force for revision of the social structure of the Tower, bringing an end, for example to the automatic deferral of Aes Sedai to sisters who are stronger. Instead, once discovered, Elayne is actively using this prejudice to manipulate the people around her. She's so condescending toward all her "good subjects." I wonder what her mother would think? Or Lini for that matter.
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May 24, 2012 17:31
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werdnam posted:How long do I have to wait for this glorious moment? Its either 8,9, or 10. I can't remember, all those books blur together for me. I'm almost a third of the way into 8 and I just read the scene where Queen Alliandre swears fealty to Perrin. I could have sworn that didn't happen till 9. Also I'm getting really tired of any Morgase POV. That poo poo started to get old when she was captive by the Whitelcloaks let alone now that she's a servant for Perrin and Faille. God I hate this stretch of books, 11 can't come soon enough. The absolute worst thing about book 8 is that there is no Matt. 
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May 24, 2012 17:36
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Elayne chapters are just goddamn painful to read. I have to fight to keep myself from skimming them. And she gets so very much screen time, in what seems like every book, compared to, say, Mat, who I'd gladly read an entire book of POV's for, but spends entire books getting few/no POVs. 
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May 24, 2012 17:38
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The problem with Elayne's character arc--not in the sense of "BRAWWRR SHE ANNOYING I NO LIKE" kind of quibbling--is that with almost every other character, even amongst the Supergirls, they transition into something they could not even have conceived at the beginning of their journey. Egwene's arrogance and know-it-all nature is because out of a given group of people which doesn't include Moiraine or Verin, she does kind of know it all and when she doesn't she pays for it really hard. Nynaeve's abrasive outbursts track her transition from a position of authority to a position of servitude, where it's then left to her to accept at long last that there are things she can't control so she can better handle the things that ARE in her control in ways that aren't being uselessly mad at them all the time. Elayne doesn't have this. She's born into one of the most privileged families in Randland, destined by law to ascend the throne of one of the most powerful and prosperous nations, and at no particular point is she REALLY prevented from doing so. There are consequences because it takes her the space of three goddamned books to even meander to where she can put her butt in the throne and the Succession she fights is almost entirely borne of her idiotic reluctance to immediately travel to her country, especially when she's twiddling her fingers trying to stay busy in Ebou Dar. The result is that by the end of the series, when all the major characters have completely transcended their starting limitations, Elayne is only just growing to fit hers. She isn't exerting herself, she's finally deigning to claim that which was practically handed to her on a plate. There's no drama there. There's no tension, and there's a very muted payoff compared to the other parts of the series.
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May 24, 2012 20:41
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I'm about a third of the way through Fires of Heaven, and there's something that's really bugging me. Mat knows that Morgase's adviser is a Darkfriend. I'm pretty sure Mat knows that Egwene has been meeting up with Elayne and Nynaeve in dreams. So why in the world hasn't he told Egwene, or anyone for that matter, that hey the queen of Caemyln has a darkfriend for an adviser? Also after what book is it safe to read New Spring? theblackw0lf fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 25, 2012 |
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May 25, 2012 18:18
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theblackw0lf posted:Also after what book is it safe to read New Spring? After book five, I think. It's basically the story of how Lan and Moiraine met and her search for the Dragon Reborn began, so you can't get spoiler for more of her story once she's out of the way.
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May 25, 2012 19:36
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theblackw0lf posted:Mat knows that Morgase's adviser is a Darkfriend. I'm pretty sure Mat knows that Egwene has been meeting up with Elayne and Nynaeve in dreams. So why in the world hasn't he told Egwene, or anyone for that matter, that hey the queen of Caemyln has a darkfriend for an adviser? Given their track record at that point in time, they wouldn't have believed him anyway.
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May 25, 2012 20:01
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theblackw0lf posted:I'm about a third of the way through Fires of Heaven, and there's something that's really bugging me. I'm planning on reading it after book 10, because that's when it was published. As for Mat, I thought it was because he was still in denial about the whole thing.
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May 25, 2012 20:23
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Willie Tomg posted:The problem with Elayne's character arc--not in the sense of "BRAWWRR SHE ANNOYING I NO LIKE" kind of quibbling--is that with almost every other character, even amongst the Supergirls, they transition into something they could not even have conceived at the beginning of their journey. Egwene's arrogance and know-it-all nature is because out of a given group of people which doesn't include Moiraine or Verin, she does kind of know it all and when she doesn't she pays for it really hard. Nynaeve's abrasive outbursts track her transition from a position of authority to a position of servitude, where it's then left to her to accept at long last that there are things she can't control so she can better handle the things that ARE in her control in ways that aren't being uselessly mad at them all the time. This is the problem exactly. Even when she does something vaguely intelligent, she always thinks "gee, good thing I was educated about that by Morgase/Bryne/Lini etc." At no point does she succeed because she grew or changed or learned something from her journey, unlike every other major character. So Elayne's chapters in the later books end up being solely about external, not internal conflicts, and it's made worse because those conflicts are pretty uninteresting and low stakes compared to what all the other characters are doing.
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May 26, 2012 01:15
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Does anybody else imagine Elayne as having a big rear end? This is the third time I've read through the series, and I can't point to any specific passages, but I feel like its repeatedly implied that Elayne has a bit of junk in the trunk. Elayne and Nynaeve at the circus was bad-sitcom levels of awful. Easily the worst part of the series.
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May 26, 2012 23:07
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Jordan sure loved that loving circus, the way it kept popping up. Rand and Perrin will perhaps ride it into the last battle, just to get everyone in on that sweet juggling action.
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May 27, 2012 08:53
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Pimpmust posted:Jordan sure loved that loving circus, the way it kept popping up. Rand and Perrin will perhaps ride it into the last battle, just to get everyone in on that sweet juggling action. Am I the only person who liked the circus as well? I liked seeing Luca deal with all of the different personalities, and some massive world-changing events took place while different characters were traveling with the circus. So pay attention, those of you who are reading for the first time!
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May 27, 2012 18:39
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I think fantasy writers just think there is something about the circus that it belongs in this genre of writing. If any of you read A Song of Fire and Ice (Game of Thrones) you'd know how much GRRM likes to mention mummers.
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May 27, 2012 18:50
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It's a pretty handy set-piece. You got all these weird, striking, characters by default who are all dressed up in even weirder ways for the usual fantasy land. You can introduce strange creatures and foreigners without having to explain where they came from (unless you want to) or why they are there. It's the circus! On top of that people from all around comes to visit and the circus is mobile as well, so there's still the usual travelogue sequences if the writer feels so inclined. That or it can show up when it's convenient for the plot. Who checks a circus for runaways? Crazy people! Introduce some high-born noble/princess and you are set for hilarious awkwardness or a case of mistaken identities and in the end everyone learn a valuable lesson. Fun for the whole family! (Of course they can be fun, I enjoy them too but sometimes it feels a little... lazy).
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May 27, 2012 20:50
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So about halfway through Lord of Chaos, these are my favorite characters so far. (No particular order, except the first) Mat Nynaeve Perrin Bashere Siuan Sanche Loial Min I liked Asomodeon a lot also until he was killed theblackw0lf fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 27, 2012 |
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May 27, 2012 21:08
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theblackw0lf posted:So about halfway through Lord of Chaos, these are my favorite characters so far. (No particular order, except the first) The re-read is into Lord of Chaos now, you don't need to spoiler that.
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May 27, 2012 22:49
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I remember on my first read way back in the day not really disliking anybody. On my re-read though, I cant stand Nynaeve right now. All she does is piss and moan and think that everyone is stupid but she knows whats right by god! I know it changes and she gets great again, but god. I'm quite ready for her to get laid and get over herself. But I think Lan doesn't make it until well after Ebou Dar. If removing the block is what cures her I think thats soon at least.
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May 28, 2012 01:29
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I'm in Book 8, so I've read past the part you spoilered, but so far it hasn't "cured" her. She's still pretty annoying in my opinion, but getting better.
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May 28, 2012 04:08
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