My dog is smarter than your honor student: the Dog Training Thread

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Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Thanks for all the ideas guys! Keep them coming, I'm feeling a bit better about the whole thing already

Instant Jellyfish posted:

If you can get a hold of the CU video I found it really helpful to see her actually working with a bunch of different dogs each with different issues and how she would tailor each game to meet their needs.

I own the DVD and I've watched it a couple of times. I also think the GMAB game would probably help, and I think I'll try that. The whole CU program is too much for me to handle I think, but I can certainly take some elements and try if they help.

a life less posted:

Susan Garrett ( ) would call that "don't wanna don't hafta" moments.

*snip*

It looked like he kind of deflated a bit while waiting for your release. Basically right now I would be working more on enthusiasm rather than control. Simpler sequences (and shorter, as I said) with more frequent rewards will probably help add that value back into the game.

I think he both had a DWDH moment (or several...) and was too worried about his surroundings to perform. I kind of see these as two separate issues, and without the stress the DWDH would be easy to deal with. At the start line he was very worried about what's around him and he kept looking over his shoulders (kept his stay like a champ though!)

He'll enthusiastically tug ringside, but not in the ring at the moment, though I'd like him to (so yes, I am using food rewards). I can easily rile him up, but the problem is the higher he is the more he pays attention to distractions. This doesn't lead to focus for work, only a more enthusiastic approach to whatever is bugging him :sigh:

Tricks and play ringside while waiting for our turn are already part of the program.

# ? May 4, 2012 16:28

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# ? May 16, 2024 17:51

a life less: Jul 12, 2009; We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Rixatrix posted:

Thanks for all the ideas guys! Keep them coming, I'm feeling a bit better about the whole thing already

I own the DVD and I've watched it a couple of times. I also think the GMAB game would probably help, and I think I'll try that. The whole CU program is too much for me to handle I think, but I can certainly take some elements and try if they help.

I think he both had a DWDH moment (or several...) and was too worried about his surroundings to perform. I kind of see these as two separate issues, and without the stress the DWDH would be easy to deal with. At the start line he was very worried about what's around him and he kept looking over his shoulders (kept his stay like a champ though!)

He'll enthusiastically tug ringside, but not in the ring at the moment, though I'd like him to (so yes, I am using food rewards). I can easily rile him up, but the problem is the higher he is the more he pays attention to distractions. This doesn't lead to focus for work, only a more enthusiastic approach to whatever is bugging him Tricks and play ringside while waiting for our turn are already part of the program.

I wouldn't necessarily get him high before entering the ring. While I guess it came off sounding that way, the tugging around distractions isn't really to get him amped, but to get him focused on you regardless of the environment.

I think the value building will come from more frequent breaks and easier games, so he's left wanting more, rather than stopping the game on his terms.

# ? May 4, 2012 16:36

2tomorrow: Oct 28, 2005; Two of us are magical.
One of us is real.

a life less posted:

Re: your flopping over/fooling around with the down cue. At first I wondered if maybe a formal sphinx down (hips upright, body position symmetrical) is uncomfortable for him. I think it's a position that can be kind of tough on a dog's hips. Or are you okay with the hips to the side type of down? Personally I like the sphinxes for sports, and general faster reactions, but the side-over type downs are good for "gonna be here a while" situations.

If it's not a pain/discomfort issue, it's a self control issue. So I would work on gradually increasing the amount of time you're asking him to work with you or hold a position, and intersperse it with plenty of play so he doesn't get bored and start trying to make his own fun by being goofy.

The Protocol for Relaxation is a good tool for building some self control and very gradually upping your criteria for an exercise. The goal for the PFR is relaxation, obviously, but I think it can be adapted to work for a down-stay as well.

Re: implicit/cued leave it. I would teach both. Sometimes you need a little extra oomph in your leave its. I use my leave it cue when I'm asking Cohen not to bug other dogs out on walks, or chase after joggers, or leave the other dog's toy alone. We do IYC type work for our obedience exercises, not mobbing the other dog when I'm working with the Chi and not her, and not diving for dropped food in the kitchen. So basically, I would teach both, but try to teach it separately. I think in an ideal world the implied leave it is ideal, but unfortunately my dog isn't perfect enough for that.

Thanks for your input! I'm definitely okay with a hips-to-the-side down, and that is actually usually what he does. The sphinx one looks uncomfortable to me and since he's just a companion, I don't care a bit if he finds a more comfortable position. I just don't want him rolling around on his back. I'll read over your link (a quick glance makes it seem like there will be lots of useful stuff there) but it sounds like we're more or less on the right track.

Thanks for your input on the "leave it" cues too. That's about what I was thinking. I think my dog is actually going to be really good at the implicit cue. He has the potential for very good impulse control, it's just a matter of establishing it in a variety of situations.

# ? May 4, 2012 20:18

Skizzles: Feb 21, 2009; Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.

Can someone give their opinion on his post?: http://denisefenzi.com/2012/04/15/what-is-relationship/

I know a life less has mentioned Denise Fenzi and seems to like her. I pretty much see nothing wrong with that post except I feel like she's essentially calling the use of treats bribery (and with the way some people use it, sure, that's totally what it is). I don't know, something just seems off to me. I don't really think that's quite what she's saying, but I know there are some people who would interpret it that way.

Skizzles fucked around with this message at 04:01 on May 5, 2012

# ? May 5, 2012 03:54

Instant Jellyfish: Jul 3, 2007; Actually not a fish.

Skizzles posted:

Can someone give their opinion on his post?: http://denisefenzi.com/2012/04/15/what-is-relationship/

I know a life less has mentioned Denise Fenzi and seems to like her. I pretty much see nothing wrong with that post except I feel like she's essentially calling the use of treats bribery (and with the way some people use it, sure, that's totally what it is). I don't know, something just seems off to me. I don't really think that's quite what she's saying, but I know there are some people who would interpret it that way.

I like Denise Fenzi and have gotten a lot out of her posts about raising her puppy. I don't think she's knocking treats or toys as training tools, I think she's just critiquing an emphasis on mechanical training skills over building a joyful relationship with the dog.

However, I think people harping on "relationship" can be frustrating and counterproductive when someone is having training issues. My dog is chasing rabbits because it is highly rewarding to him and when he's in the process he isn't capable of hearing me call him not because we don't have a good relationship. I don't need to work on our relationship, I need to work on a default "look at me" when there are rabbits around. Relationships are hard to define and judge from the outside, specific behaviors however are a lot easier to observe and change.

Anyway, I'm falling asleep and rambling but I think it's just a post about her feelings and not really a training how to sort of post and I wouldn't be to worked up about it.

# ? May 5, 2012 04:07

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Skizzles posted:

I feel like she's essentially calling the use of treats bribery (and with the way some people use it, sure, that's totally what it is). I don't know, something just seems off to me. I don't really think that's quite what she's saying, but I know there are some people who would interpret it that way.

I think she's saying what Susan Garret is saying when she wrote her "Be the Cookie" blog posts: you want to build a strong reinforcement history for the dog for doing things with you, so that the dog chooses to engage, feels safe and is happy working with you. The dog/handler pair she saw engaged in "interpersonal play" as she calls it have a working relationship where being with each other and doing stuff together is reinforcing in itself. That is achieved through transfer of value, i.e. lots and lots of toys, food, access to desired things etc. in a context of working together.

I have lately found it a bit sad that a lot of people interested in the technical aspects of training are often quick to dismiss the emotional side of training and bonding with your dog (not talking about you Skizzels or anyone here). I think it's true it might be counterproductive to bring this stuff up with someone who has trouble with teaching basic skills like housetraining or whatever, but the emotional side and your relationship with your dog really make a difference in my opinion.

Denize Fenzi posted:

A great relationship is based on choice; the dog chooses to spend time with you because you are important to him.

# ? May 5, 2012 06:24

Riiseli: Apr 10, 2011; I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.

a life less posted:

Something I see a lot of clients doing is acting kind of stern and, well, un-fun when teaching obedience. Obedience behaviours are tricks just like a paw, a spin or a handstand is. They should be fun. So break out your happy, excited voice and just generally appear like you're having a good time. Taking obedience too seriously seems to be a good way to make your dog uninterested in it unless there's something obviously in it for him.

But un-fun needs to be worked in, if one is looking into doing competitive obedience. But you are absolutely correct. One thing I do, especially with men I teach, a lot, is I am silly a lot, because they don't really get that you need to be enthusiastic at times to get the dog to really enjoy the exercises.

Rhymes With Clue posted:

So my dog, 1.5 year old BC mix, is in flyball. He's doing good, with one exception, and that is that he focuses too much on other dogs...

I'd look into using Premack here. It is what I've done with my (almost) year old BC and she's pretty good about coming when called, mid-play even.

2tomorrow posted:

I am having a pretty silly problem with my GSD. He responds really well to a "down" command from both a sit and a stand. He lays down straight, but then flops over onto his back. I think it's adorable (though I'm careful not to inadvertently reward it) and I adore his goofy personality but I take him a lot of places and it would be nice to have a slightly more dignified down when we're out in public.

You've gotten good advice already and my suggestions may well be something you already do, but I'll mention these just in case. You might want to make sure you avoid looking down at him, when he is laying down. Look sort of past him and over him instead. And you might want to take a couple of steps away from him as well. It'll be more natural for him to focus on you during the down stay that way. Back up a couple of steps go back give him a treat while he's laying down and back up again and release and so forth. You might also practice with his food bowl before you feed him. It'll most likely have him alert enough, so he won't flop on his back.

Rixatrix posted:

That is achieved through transfer of value, i.e. lots and lots of toys, food, access to desired things etc. in a context of working together.

And for some dogs access to desired things is even access to you. Healy <3

# ? May 5, 2012 07:46

Skizzles: Feb 21, 2009; Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.

I agree with you guys on Denise Fenzi's post. I was awfully tired when I posted that. But I think it's hilarious that the people who posted it on Facebook saying "this is what we strive for!!" is a training group that does leash corrections and absolutely will NOT use treats because BRIBERY!

# ? May 5, 2012 23:24

a life less: Jul 12, 2009; We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Skizzles posted:

I agree with you guys on Denise Fenzi's post. I was awfully tired when I posted that. But I think it's hilarious that the people who posted it on Facebook saying "this is what we strive for!!" is a training group that does leash corrections and absolutely will NOT use treats because BRIBERY!

We all strive for that relationship. I don't think there's any dog trainer out there who prioritizes behaviour over relationship. (Okay, actually there are a few, but...) And while Fenzi does utilize corrections in her training, they're all non-physical. She'll ignore/put away dogs who aren't interested in working, and will mark things like the dog being out of position verbally. As far as I know, she doesn't apply any positive punishment in her training repertoire.

I feel like I utilize too much food and not enough real life, interpersonal play and relationship based rewards. And when I do try to use them, they don't have enough value to keep Cohen with me around big distractions without consistent verbal feedback. It's tough wean out the cookie when you've come to rely on it so strongly.

In more personal news, Cohen earned her CD this weekend. It's the title she receives after passing the novice competition obedience requirements. I'm definitely going to continue in Comp OB, but I'm going to take some time to really work on adding more value to obedience in the absence of food, and to really tidy up her heeling.

We also did an agility competition, and Cohen qualified in 1 out of her 3 runs. Which is an improvement - she normally qualifies in 1 out of 4. We're improving our ratio!!! One NQ (did not qualify) was Cohen's fault, and the other NQ was mine, so we're even.

At the end of the month I'll be competing in Rally Obedience, and will hopefully further Cohen's title to the advanced level. She's turning out to be such a nice, well rounded little dog. :3:

a life less fucked around with this message at 19:32 on May 7, 2012

# ? May 7, 2012 19:14

cheese eats mouse: Jul 6, 2007; A real Portlander now

I'm going crazy with my dog. She's 8 years old and just will not go to the bathroom outside anymore. I don't know why. She will go pee (sometimes), but seems to intentionally hold her poop and poop on the floor in the middle of the night.

Add to my confusion is if she is on a hard surface she will not do any business on it, but will gladly pee and poop on carpet. My house is all carpet except in the kitchen and bathroom (I'll leave her in the kitchen sometimes with a baby gate and no accidents ever). She loves to poop in the front living room and we can never seem to catch her when she does go inside.

I'm just so tired of the dog pee smell in the house. She knows to go to the back door if she has to go to the bathroom and does do that, so she's making the connection bathroom=backdoor. We don't have a fenced in backyard so I usually let her out tied to a long lead and she has plenty of room to move around. She does listen to my boyfriend so no leash when he lets her out, but still she'll go pee and just stand there like she's done, but I KNOW she isn't. I can't make her take a poop though.

GAH help.

She gets fed at 1 p.m. and we take both dogs out around 10 p.m. and get let out first thing in the morning. Boyfriend's dog doesn't have any problems. I haven't had a crate since she was a puppy. Do I just need to retrain her on potty training? She already has her cue word and when I say "want to go OUT?" she will walk to the back door.

Oh and she did this when she was a puppy and living at my parent's house with hardwood floors. She would go to the bathroom outside, but would still find our area rugs and pee and poop on them.

cheese eats mouse fucked around with this message at 21:09 on May 8, 2012

# ? May 8, 2012 20:55

a life less: Jul 12, 2009; We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

cheese eats mouse posted:

Do I just need to retrain her on potty training?

Yeap, you should probably do that.

Basically, potty training is all about creating a preference for going outside, and all about controlling her access to anything that would be wrong to pee/poo on while you set the preference. The amount of time it takes to (re)create that preference differs from dog to dog, and is influenced by how long the habit to relieve itself indoors has been allowed to go on. My thoughts about it is that the more effort you put into managing the dog during the learning phase the more benefit you'll see long term. The reality of it is that you will not allow the dog access to any carpeted area of your house until she's gone ONE MONTH without having an accident indoors. And then, only gradually expand her access to the rest of your house.

Check out Mr. Furious's housetraining guide for some specific pointers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u53Bw5jWag--ZqjooOa14Fv7XzNyVZ9IpqLGbxQWnxc/edit?pli=1

Way too many people slack on controlling their dogs via gates, crate and tethers. It's a HUGE pain in the rear end, I know. But again it's worth it in the long run.

I personally have started leaning more heavily towards active management rather than treating for proper elimination (a la Mr. Furious's guide). Also, get really familiar with your dog's bathrooming habits. For instance, I know my tiny dog needs to pee twice and poop once after waking up each morning, and my big dog pees and poops once each. I know what time of day each is likely to need to poo, and what time I can put them out for their last pee of the night before getting ready for bed. That way you can be more proactive in your approach.

Finally, walks around the block can be good for prompting a poo. It can get the bowels moving. Don't leave your dog out on a tie-out outside and just hope for the best. Actively watch if she's peeing/pooing, and take her on a walk if she's not going.

# ? May 8, 2012 21:51

Riiseli: Apr 10, 2011; I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.

a life less posted:

Finally, walks around the block can be good for prompting a poo. It can get the bowels moving. Don't leave your dog out on a tie-out outside and just hope for the best. Actively watch if she's peeing/pooing, and take her on a walk if she's not going.

This.

I don't know what you already do, cheese eats mouse, as it wasn't specified (I hope), so I'd say you want to check your habits with the dog as far as walks with the dog go. And I want to point out that there are dogs out there that refuse or prefer not to eliminate within their own property. Your dog is not one of them, since she actually eliminates indoors. So this is only to illustrate, that one definitely shouldn't expect any dog to do their business tethered to long line. Four, even short, walks a day should help you a lot.

# ? May 8, 2012 22:07

wtftastic: Jul 24, 2006; "In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

cheese eats mouse posted:

I'm going crazy with my dog. She's 8 years old and just will not go to the bathroom outside anymore. I don't know why. She will go pee (sometimes), but seems to intentionally hold her poop and poop on the floor in the middle of the night.

Add to my confusion is if she is on a hard surface she will not do any business on it, but will gladly pee and poop on carpet. My house is all carpet except in the kitchen and bathroom (I'll leave her in the kitchen sometimes with a baby gate and no accidents ever). She loves to poop in the front living room and we can never seem to catch her when she does go inside.

I'm just so tired of the dog pee smell in the house. She knows to go to the back door if she has to go to the bathroom and does do that, so she's making the connection bathroom=backdoor. We don't have a fenced in backyard so I usually let her out tied to a long lead and she has plenty of room to move around. She does listen to my boyfriend so no leash when he lets her out, but still she'll go pee and just stand there like she's done, but I KNOW she isn't. I can't make her take a poop though.

GAH help.

She gets fed at 1 p.m. and we take both dogs out around 10 p.m. and get let out first thing in the morning. Boyfriend's dog doesn't have any problems. I haven't had a crate since she was a puppy. Do I just need to retrain her on potty training? She already has her cue word and when I say "want to go OUT?" she will walk to the back door.

Oh and she did this when she was a puppy and living at my parent's house with hardwood floors. She would go to the bathroom outside, but would still find our area rugs and pee and poop on them.

My dog is a pain in the rear end about pooping sometimes... have you considered that she might also be constipated?

# ? May 9, 2012 00:50

Crooked Booty: Apr 2, 2009; arrr

Just posting to say we tried shaping and it was fun! It took a few minutes for him to figure out that the treats had something to do with the cardboard box, but then he started doing all sorts of awesome stuff.

My (floppy-eared) puppy says thanks to all the smart people in this thread by doing his best impersonation of a GSD:

# ? May 9, 2012 16:51

prom candy: Dec 16, 2005; Only I may dance

So we've had our dog Stella for about a week now and everything is going great, EXCEPT, she's terrible on leash. As soon as we get out of the house, I just cease to exist. Even if I'm carrying some top shelf treats nothing is more exciting than getting to sniff other dogs' urine. If I put a treat right next to her nose she'll look at me for maybe half a second, but if I ask for anything from her (sit, extended eye contact, etc.) she gives me the finger and goes back to sniffing.

I've practiced with her in the house, but the house lacks the distraction element of the outside world. Doing her own thing once we're out is way more reinforcing than anything I'm able to offer.

I think part of this is that the family we got her from never took her for walks, so now I'm torn. Do I take her out frequently and let her pull and sniff and ignore me so that being out becomes less of a "Holy poo poo, I AM OUT!!!" experience, or do I stand in front of our house like an idiot with a handful of treats that she doesn't care about because literally everything in the world is more interesting than what I'm doing?

We have a big backyard and she loves to play fetch and dug and be chased around so it's not like she's not getting exercise, but I know she's going to start getting bored soon.

Suggestions?

# ? May 19, 2012 20:33

wtftastic: Jul 24, 2006; "In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

prom candy posted:

So we've had our dog Stella for about a week now and everything is going great, EXCEPT, she's terrible on leash. As soon as we get out of the house, I just cease to exist. Even if I'm carrying some top shelf treats nothing is more exciting than getting to sniff other dogs' urine. If I put a treat right next to her nose she'll look at me for maybe half a second, but if I ask for anything from her (sit, extended eye contact, etc.) she gives me the finger and goes back to sniffing.

I've practiced with her in the house, but the house lacks the distraction element of the outside world. Doing her own thing once we're out is way more reinforcing than anything I'm able to offer.

I think part of this is that the family we got her from never took her for walks, so now I'm torn. Do I take her out frequently and let her pull and sniff and ignore me so that being out becomes less of a "Holy poo poo, I AM OUT!!!" experience, or do I stand in front of our house like an idiot with a handful of treats that she doesn't care about because literally everything in the world is more interesting than what I'm doing?

We have a big backyard and she loves to play fetch and dug and be chased around so it's not like she's not getting exercise, but I know she's going to start getting bored soon.

Suggestions?

Have you tried to practice in your backyard? That should be intermediate in terms of distractions.

# ? May 19, 2012 21:32

tsc: Jun 18, 2004; hostis humani generis

I'm crossposting this from the Yappy Rat thread--

quote:

I'm posting these here because there's a lot of yapping.

Our typical routine with Stan is that I take the dogs out in the morning, then I generally return to bed with Stan, and we have a little playtime. Today, Stan let my boyfriend take him out (unleashed into a fenced area), which was a big step.

These are videos of this morning's playtime, because I'd like to get some feedback as to what Stan is actually doing here. Most of it's playing, but there are these moments where he seems scared or nervous, when nothing changes, and it's all been pretty upbeat and gentle. He's a little more excited and barky in these than usual (and yes, we tell him no barking in one video then let him bark, we don't want to get rid of it just have an off button), and a little less kissy, but it's a pretty good representation anyway. It's just weird, and I hope we're not encouraging his being scared or something.

After we play like this he calms right down and eats breakfast and goes about his day, so it's not like it's traumatizing him or anything.

Stan1 Shyest bit.
Stan2 The barkiest bit, but also the most playful.
Stan3 Mostly for my boyfriend getting punched in the kidneys by our other dog.

Stan has never bitten, nipped, or even roughly mouthed during any of this.

quote:

He's less barky with me, but he does the same things for the most part, and he's absolutely not scared of me. He plays with other men too, doing the kisses/digging at hands thing with my boyfriend's dad, but he more readily accepts pets/scratches from him. If you tell him "go give kisses" he happily bounces over to whoever you point at and will lick their hands the same way, so it's an established thing he does, not just when he's scared.

Stan listens well to my boyfriend, recalls *near* him rather than *to* him, waits at the door with him... http://youtu.be/1Cs9AHeFdXg (he's between Tola's butt and the wall here, which he also does with me alone).

When we're just walking, Stan's always close to one of us, but when he's with my boyfriend he is happy and looks at him and bouncy etc, no fear at all. http://youtu.be/stPxsDyQoRE (sideways and shakey, sorry)

He will not let my boyfriend hold him, hold his leash (he instantly shuts down and is in full on GET THE gently caress AWAY terror mode, so we don't do that for now), but Stan will let him pick him up if I'm around, and BF can throw paper balls for Stan and he plays keepaway.

Edit: I'm not saying that there's not fear involved, which is why I posted. BUt it's perplexing because for a while, we didn't let Stan play like that, and my boyfriend mostly ignored him except for food and treats. After about a week of that, Stan was constantly bouncing around him and barking and licking and grumbling trying desperately to get him to play. We kept going though, and in the mornings, every movement by my boyfriend would be interpreted as an attempt to play, followed by the behaviors in the video, ignored or not.

Edit edit: No fear issues in general. He's not a fan of deep holes but it's hard not to be when you're 8" tall I guess.

Here are some more videos of him in a less excited mode. Yes we have a lot of laundry in the hall, it's getting washed today.

http://youtu.be/T1h_6omcjTk Boyfriend has his head turned away from Stan the whole time.

http://youtu.be/3d7gFVJ8PeE treats

Basically: I acknowledge that there's fear involved. I am wondering why he initiates the behaviors in the first two videos if he's scared, and why we are plateauing at this level.

I was going to get a video of his behavior outside around other people and noises, but he just does dog stuff and it's really very boring to watch a small grey dog wander off and sniff bugs.

# ? May 20, 2012 20:41

Instant Jellyfish: Jul 3, 2007; Actually not a fish.

Personally he seems more conflicted than outright scared. He's doing some lip licking and turning away and all of his weight is in his back end so he can flee if it gets to be too much, but he keeps coming back and he's not looking too stiff and eventually his tail comes up a bit. The dance-y front feet are a big uncertainty signal in my experience. He wants to engage but is a bit stressed and nervous about it. How long have you had Stan?

This seems like it would be a good case for some BAT work. I think if he felt better about being able to control the interaction, like when he's outside and off leash, he would be giving fewer stress signals. Here's what BAT looks like in action and Grisha Stewart's BAT book is really thorough and well written.

In these videos it seems like you are encouraging Stan to move out of his comfort zone with "kisses" but then you never reward him for it or give him a break. When you see Stan lick his lips or turn away you should reward him for communicating so well to you that he's uncomfortable by encouraging him to leave whatever situation is making him stressed (have the boyfriend turn around or walk away/give Stan some treats away from the boyfriend). Eventually Stan will learn that you guys get what he's saying and will feel better about these interactions. Just keep things brief, upbeat, and full of treats and I'm sure Stan will get more comfortable.

# ? May 20, 2012 21:09

tsc: Jun 18, 2004; hostis humani generis

We got him in the very beginning of March, so it hasn't been very long at all.

I wish I had a video of how he was at first-- it was a definite fear reaction, and he took weeks to calm down from that. Our working theory at that point was that he had no idea how to deal with men in general-- everyone at the rescue was a woman. He likes male kids though. But the leash reaction (not going to get a video of that, obviously) is so instant and full of pure terror that it really seems like something specific happened to him. The other stuff does seem very conflicted to me.

It seems like treating him for going away from men might just reinforce that men are good to go away from, but we'll try. That's a key issue because of where we live-- 5 acres out in the desert. If he gets out of the gate, anybody needs to be able to catch him, male or female. Same thing if he's bitten by a snake.

This is him just wandering outside, and saying hi to my boyfriend's dad. It is really hot right now (97) so he's not as active as he might otherwise be. Just as a reference for his relaxed, not really being asked to do anything behaviors. He does retreat to me a bit at the end, but I'm kind of his default person to hang out with.

Thank you for the links, I'll look into it.

# ? May 20, 2012 22:12

MrFurious: Dec 11, 2003; THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

prom candy posted:

Leash Walking stuff

Step 1 - Relax. You're doing fine, but keep your expectations realistic. You have a puppy, and you've had her for a week. Walk before you run (no pun intended).

Step 2 - Baby steps. Practicing in the backyard is a good suggestion. I'd also recommend that you try doing the walk briefly (but not immediately) after a major play session so she's tired. Tired dogs don't have as much energy to be enormous butts. You mentioned that you might get eye contact but you're effectively luring it. Move away from the lure if you can, but if you get eye contact, click and treat -- then use that sniffing as the reward. If she wants to charge ahead and sniff the tree, hold your ground and wait for the eye contact. As soon as you give it, praise, then say "go sniff!" and go investigate with her. When you start getting that focus offered, REWARD HEAVILY (including the sniffing) - your dog is doing exactly what you want, don't let her down. Then you can start phasing it out.

Step 3 - Examine your tactics. How and when are you doing your walks? Time them for a period of day that your dog is not bursting with energy. Try to minimize distractions along the way such as people and other dogs. This doesn't mean you need to walk at 3:00 AM, but if everyone tends to hit the block and walk with family or their own dogs at 5:15 every night, it would be silly for you to choose that time to go for a walk as well. I also suggest you consider a management device like a no pull harness or head halter. These are covered in the thread, so look there first, but if you still have questions, come back and post.

# ? May 21, 2012 03:20

tiddlez: Nov 25, 2006; Nice shirt, Gaywad.

Can anyone tell me how I go about getting Campbell interested in some sniffing games? He LOVES sniffing out things when he is off leash in the park. And he will follow a trail for AGES. Is there anything I can do at home or any games I can make up to get him to sniff for particular things?

Is this something that will tire him out as he will be "working" to get treats?

Edit: I posted this way quick as I was going into a meeting! I'm looking for a whole intro to games as I have no idea what to do to introduce this kind of thing. I think it's something he'd enjoy so I would like to try him at it!

tiddlez fucked around with this message at 11:20 on May 21, 2012

# ? May 21, 2012 10:28

Kiri koli: Jun 20, 2005; Also, I can kill you with my brain.

tiddlez posted:

Can anyone tell me how I go about getting Campbell interested in some sniffing games? He LOVES sniffing out things when he is off leash in the park. And he will follow a trail for AGES. Is there anything I can do at home or any games I can make up to get him to sniff for particular things?

Is this something that will tire him out as he will be "working" to get treats?

Edit: I posted this way quick as I was going into a meeting! I'm looking for a whole intro to games as I have no idea what to do to introduce this kind of thing. I think it's something he'd enjoy so I would like to try him at it!

This website has a nice outline for some nose work games that just need some boxes to get started. I think they're just what you're looking for as an introduction.

Nose work will definitely tire him out! Mental stimulation is often overlooked as exercise, but most dogs need it in addition to physical exercise.

# ? May 21, 2012 16:57

n8r: Jul 3, 2003; I helped Lowtax become a cyborg and all I got was this lousy avatar

So what do you guys think about rattlesnake avoidance training? There is some guy around here that is claiming he does it and his methods are suspicious at best. Lots of e-collar use in this area and this guy claims he can cure your dog w/ one nasty shock.

http://www.rattlesnakedog.com/how-the-training-works.html

Notice the dog is 2' off the ground - pretty sure that dog is getting the hell shocked out of it. Plus the idea that the dog is cured after one shock is bogus. Scary stuff for a lot of reason. It would seem to me that avoidance is the best training method. What do people here think?

# ? May 23, 2012 17:22

wtftastic: Jul 24, 2006; "In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

What is the best way to teach a solid "leave it"? I've been trying kikopup's method and I can't seem to progress past kibble.

# ? May 23, 2012 17:32

MrFurious: Dec 11, 2003; THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

n8r posted:

So what do you guys think about rattlesnake avoidance training? There is some guy around here that is claiming he does it and his methods are suspicious at best. Lots of e-collar use in this area and this guy claims he can cure your dog w/ one nasty shock.

http://www.rattlesnakedog.com/how-the-training-works.html

Notice the dog is 2' off the ground - pretty sure that dog is getting the hell shocked out of it. Plus the idea that the dog is cured after one shock is bogus. Scary stuff for a lot of reason. It would seem to me that avoidance is the best training method. What do people here think?

It's funny you brought this up. My wife and I attended a Canine First Aid lecture this week that was presented by some very impressive emergency vets, and a woman brought this up in our area. It also happened that the supervisor for our training department was there as well and was familiar with how this is usually trained, and clearly didn't care for it.

The idea that the dog is "cured" after one shock isn't necessarily bogus, although the number is closer to two or three. The research shows that the negative stimulus has to be pretty severe to leave a lasting impression but also not do any permanent damage to the dog. But that to be effective, it also shouldn't have to be administered more than a very small number of times.

As a pet owner, I would never consider this. I'd prefer to manage my dog via long lead in the outdoors, or maintain a rock-solid recall via a lot of training.

If, however, I was a ranch-owner who had working dogs and rattlesnakes were a very common danger, I might consider this but I would have some very serious reservations -- it's a big risk regarding the damage it can do to your dog both emotionally and physically, so please do not interpret that as an endorsement.

That said -- they covered venemous bite wounds in this lecture and the data suggests that, provided medical attention is provided within 24 hours of the bite, they are rarely fatal, and that the anti-venom for most of the common rattlesnakes is usually in good supply, at least in our area (Front Range Colorado).

wtftastic posted:

What is the best way to teach a solid "leave it"? I've been trying kikopup's method and I can't seem to progress past kibble.

I can't view youtube at work -- what exactly have you done and where are you struggling? We cover this extensively in our classes, so I'm sure I can help.

# ? May 23, 2012 17:40

wtftastic: Jul 24, 2006; "In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

MrFurious posted:

It's funny you brought this up. My wife and I attended a Canine First Aid lecture this week that was presented by some very impressive emergency vets, and a woman brought this up in our area. It also happened that the supervisor for our training department was there as well and was familiar with how this is usually trained, and clearly didn't care for it.

The idea that the dog is "cured" after one shock isn't necessarily bogus, although the number is closer to two or three. The research shows that the negative stimulus has to be pretty severe to leave a lasting impression but also not do any permanent damage to the dog. But that to be effective, it also shouldn't have to be administered more than a very small number of times.

As a pet owner, I would never consider this. I'd prefer to manage my dog via long lead in the outdoors, or maintain a rock-solid recall via a lot of training.

If, however, I was a ranch-owner who had working dogs and rattlesnakes were a very common danger, I might consider this but I would have some very serious reservations -- it's a big risk regarding the damage it can do to your dog both emotionally and physically, so please do not interpret that as an endorsement.

That said -- they covered venemous bite wounds in this lecture and the data suggests that, provided medical attention is provided within 24 hours of the bite, they are rarely fatal, and that the anti-venom for most of the common rattlesnakes is usually in good supply, at least in our area (Front Range Colorado).

I can't view youtube at work -- what exactly have you done and where are you struggling? We cover this extensively in our classes, so I'm sure I can help.

I will place several kibble on the floor within eye sight of the dog. He stares at the kibbles, and when he looks away I say "leave it" and then treat him. He seems to understand the command (with kibble) and will respond to "leave it". However, getting past kibble (higher value treats) as the bait and on to anything else and he just sits there, staring at the treat, trying to dig at my foot, or steal the bait away. Its hard to say what exactly the problem is because I think its partly that he knows I have good treats and stops focusing on the food or he doesn't care about the treats and wants the bait.

# ? May 23, 2012 17:45

Skizzles: Feb 21, 2009; Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.

Pretty much what MrFurious said. It's an awful method, but that doesn't mean it isn't effective, and I would only use it as an absolute life-or-death last resort for someone who lived in a very rattlesnake-heavy area.

# ? May 23, 2012 17:46

n8r: Jul 3, 2003; I helped Lowtax become a cyborg and all I got was this lousy avatar

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it before but my family actually owns Dogwise (our ghetto website is my fault, but so are the drm free ebooks) and so we're always on the lookout for stuff that may end up being a good book. One of our goals as publishers is to get *good* new information out there. It seems like there could be a place for a book that really educates people on how to deal with rattlesnakes. I live in rattlesnake country and frankly have never really thought about them much even when letting my dog go off leash up in the hills.

It's really a shame that my job is wasted on me because I'm not a big training enthusiast. Much of our customer/reader base is against any kind of force training including shock collars. On the other hand I know a lot of people personally who have used them responsibly with very good results.

# ? May 23, 2012 17:51

a life less: Jul 12, 2009; We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

n8r posted:

So what do you guys think about rattlesnake avoidance training? There is some guy around here that is claiming he does it and his methods are suspicious at best. Lots of e-collar use in this area and this guy claims he can cure your dog w/ one nasty shock.

http://www.rattlesnakedog.com/how-the-training-works.html

Notice the dog is 2' off the ground - pretty sure that dog is getting the hell shocked out of it. Plus the idea that the dog is cured after one shock is bogus. Scary stuff for a lot of reason. It would seem to me that avoidance is the best training method. What do people here think?

I have no first hand experience with snake avoidance training, but I've heard it referred to positively among people who own working dogs.

The one (very very heavy) shock should be drastic enough to trigger what we refer to as single event learning. It's like if you get sick after eating beans, and you can't look at beans the same way again for years to come. Animals are wired to remember extremely unpleasant experiences for a very long time - if they didn't, they'd be picked off by natural selection pretty fast out in the ~wild~.

If I had a choice between a few undoubtedly unpleasant experiences for the dog or losing my dog to rattlesnake bite, I would side with the avoidance training.

wtftastic posted:

I will place several kibble on the floor within eye sight of the dog. He stares at the kibbles, and when he looks away I say "leave it" and then treat him. He seems to understand the command (with kibble) and will respond to "leave it". However, getting past kibble (higher value treats) as the bait and on to anything else and he just sits there, staring at the treat, trying to dig at my foot, or steal the bait away. Its hard to say what exactly the problem is because I think its partly that he knows I have good treats and stops focusing on the food or he doesn't care about the treats and wants the bait.

That's how we teach leave it in my classes as well.

The key that I see a lot of students miss is that they say "leave it" before the dog has disengaged from the bait. When your dog is first learning the word you may as well be saying "purple monkey dishwasher" - they don't know what it means. And if you begin saying "leave it" too soon then the dog could very well interpret "leave it" as meaning "swim like a maniac towards that treat".

Dog training is made up of the 3 Ds: distance, duration and distraction. The general rule of thumb is to only work on one of those aspects at a time. If you're running into problems, what happens when you increase the distance between your dog and the bait? Are you perhaps waiting him out too long, and you lose your opportunity to reinforce a split second of attention before he turns back to the bait? Perhaps the bait is too distracting, so try something higher value than kibble but lower value than whatever you're using now. Think outside the box and use toys, or other low-value objects like your keyring.

My guess is that you're rushing the training a bit, and he's not as good with "leave it" with kibble as you might think. Remember that you want your dog to succeed in the exercise 80-90% of the time. If you're getting a lot of failures in a row you need to go back a step or two, because the failures are giving you feedback on how successful your training is.

Too many people push their dog to the point of failure in these sorts of exercises. This article might help a bit too: http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2012/02/distraction-work-in-dog-training-a-conversation-between-friends/

# ? May 23, 2012 18:02

MrFurious: Dec 11, 2003; THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

n8r posted:

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it before but my family actually owns Dogwise

Minor internet celebrity status!

quote:

On the other hand I know a lot of people personally who have used them responsibly with very good results.

I would challenge this statement, simply because these people are generally focused solely on results, and not the whole condition of the dog, which is not an attitude that I consider to be coincident with responsible guardianship. As a trainer and a dog nerd, I would have very serious reservations about any text that you put up that advocated or considered the use of shock collars unless it was written by an individual with some heavy credentials in both training and behavior. That's just my two cents.

wtftastic posted:

Leave It Stuff

I have a few questions, but rather than waste your time with more back and forth, I think I'll start with outlining a couple of stumbling blocks I see and then go over how we teach this in class and let you adapt as you see fit.

For one, in the early stages of leave it, or when increasing difficulty, make sure that whatever you use for your reward is much higher value than the object he's leaving. I'd also recommend that you ask for focus, rather than just looking away, because that's going to imply that he's looking to you for direction or permission. It's very good to build this as a default behavior. Also, I don't think this is an issue, but make sure you're never allowing him to have the bait object and that you always treat from the opposite hand that you baited with (although these should be swapped so he doesn't cue to one hand or the other).

So, here's how we teach this in class:
1 - Treat in closed fist, place in front of the dog (no cueing whatsoever). When the dog stops molesting your hand, click, place bait hand behind your back, treat from your opposite hand. Repeat until the dog "gets" it and is leaving the object within 1-2 seconds of the bait.

2 - Repeat above, but wait and capture eye contact. In some dogs you need to shape this (start with looking at your waist, legs, whatever, gradually wait for eye movement directed closer to your head). Don't progress past this point until you're getting eye contact.

3 - When you are getting eye contact regularly, switch your baited hand to an open palm with the treat in it. If the dog approaches or goes for the treat, close your fist before he can get it. When the dog leaves it alone, palm opens again. When this is happening successfully, start to add the verbal cue. When to cue has been debated somewhat - personally, I like to add it right after the bait (i.e. palm out, then "leave it!") but I'm not convinced that it plays a huge role.

4 - Move to kibbles on the floor (My guess is that you skipped to this part just a little bit fast and the behavior isn't that clear to the dog, or he's only generalized it to kibble, not any object). Start kneeling down and put your palm over it. When that's working, stand up and drop it on a carpeted surface so it doesn't roll, and make sure it lands at your feet. Step on it if you need to prevent the dog from getting it. Eventually you'll want to roll or toss it (the movement increases desire, and you're slowly making this more difficult).

5 - Once you've done that with kibbles, repeat step 4 from the beginning with some novel object, something the dog isn't really familiar with. A ziplock bag? A spoon? Not a toy. Then you can move to higher value treats. If you're going to use a high value treat and it's the same as your reward, I would make sure that you jackpot every time they leave it.

6 - Start practicing on walks with things they tend to lunge for (in my case this is sticks and fallen nuts/berries). Make sure you cue right as they recognize the object and don't allow them to get it, so keep hold of your leash. If they manage to get the object, they're self-rewarding.

It also helps if you don't actually require a cue to leave it. A default leave it is great in the kitchen for when you drop something that you don't want them to have.

# ? May 23, 2012 18:14

n8r: Jul 3, 2003; I helped Lowtax become a cyborg and all I got was this lousy avatar

MrFurious posted:

Minor internet celebrity status!

I would challenge this statement, simply because these people are generally focused solely on results, and not the whole condition of the dog, which is not an attitude that I consider to be coincident with responsible guardianship. As a trainer and a dog nerd, I would have very serious reservations about any text that you put up that advocated or considered the use of shock collars unless it was written by an individual with some heavy credentials in both training and behavior. That's just my two cents.

I definitely do not have enough knowledge/expertise/etc to come down one way or the other on the shock collar deal. As a company we pretty much always come down on the side of positive training. There is a book coming down the road at some point over the next few years that will actually be based on science that I'm pretty sure will be very heavily against them. Personally I feel that shock collars are a very lazy way to train a dog where in most situations all sorts of other methods could be used first. Also the ramifications which you mention are practically impossible to predict as to whether or not the dog will be screwed up by it.

I've never laid a hand on my dog(s), but she was a rescue and to this day if you roll up a newspaper to kill a fly she'll tuck tail and run. I've had her for something like 7 years now.

# ? May 23, 2012 18:37

prom candy: Dec 16, 2005; Only I may dance

MrFurious posted:

Minor internet celebrity status!

I would challenge this statement, simply because these people are generally focused solely on results, and not the whole condition of the dog, which is not an attitude that I consider to be coincident with responsible guardianship. As a trainer and a dog nerd, I would have very serious reservations about any text that you put up that advocated or considered the use of shock collars unless it was written by an individual with some heavy credentials in both training and behavior. That's just my two cents.

I have a few questions, but rather than waste your time with more back and forth, I think I'll start with outlining a couple of stumbling blocks I see and then go over how we teach this in class and let you adapt as you see fit.

For one, in the early stages of leave it, or when increasing difficulty, make sure that whatever you use for your reward is much higher value than the object he's leaving. I'd also recommend that you ask for focus, rather than just looking away, because that's going to imply that he's looking to you for direction or permission. It's very good to build this as a default behavior. Also, I don't think this is an issue, but make sure you're never allowing him to have the bait object and that you always treat from the opposite hand that you baited with (although these should be swapped so he doesn't cue to one hand or the other).

So, here's how we teach this in class:
1 - Treat in closed fist, place in front of the dog (no cueing whatsoever). When the dog stops molesting your hand, click, place bait hand behind your back, treat from your opposite hand. Repeat until the dog "gets" it and is leaving the object within 1-2 seconds of the bait.

2 - Repeat above, but wait and capture eye contact. In some dogs you need to shape this (start with looking at your waist, legs, whatever, gradually wait for eye movement directed closer to your head). Don't progress past this point until you're getting eye contact.

3 - When you are getting eye contact regularly, switch your baited hand to an open palm with the treat in it. If the dog approaches or goes for the treat, close your fist before he can get it. When the dog leaves it alone, palm opens again. When this is happening successfully, start to add the verbal cue. When to cue has been debated somewhat - personally, I like to add it right after the bait (i.e. palm out, then "leave it!") but I'm not convinced that it plays a huge role.

4 - Move to kibbles on the floor (My guess is that you skipped to this part just a little bit fast and the behavior isn't that clear to the dog, or he's only generalized it to kibble, not any object). Start kneeling down and put your palm over it. When that's working, stand up and drop it on a carpeted surface so it doesn't roll, and make sure it lands at your feet. Step on it if you need to prevent the dog from getting it. Eventually you'll want to roll or toss it (the movement increases desire, and you're slowly making this more difficult).

5 - Once you've done that with kibbles, repeat step 4 from the beginning with some novel object, something the dog isn't really familiar with. A ziplock bag? A spoon? Not a toy. Then you can move to higher value treats. If you're going to use a high value treat and it's the same as your reward, I would make sure that you jackpot every time they leave it.

6 - Start practicing on walks with things they tend to lunge for (in my case this is sticks and fallen nuts/berries). Make sure you cue right as they recognize the object and don't allow them to get it, so keep hold of your leash. If they manage to get the object, they're self-rewarding.

It also helps if you don't actually require a cue to leave it. A default leave it is great in the kitchen for when you drop something that you don't want them to have.

We're in the middle of teaching this behaviour, using pretty much this method to Stella and she's doing really well but we haven't really taught a cue. One thing I've noticed is that she offers the behaviour now even when I'm actually giving her something. What's the best way to teach a release for this?

# ? May 23, 2012 21:00

wtftastic: Jul 24, 2006; "In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

MrFurious posted:

Minor internet celebrity status!

I would challenge this statement, simply because these people are generally focused solely on results, and not the whole condition of the dog, which is not an attitude that I consider to be coincident with responsible guardianship. As a trainer and a dog nerd, I would have very serious reservations about any text that you put up that advocated or considered the use of shock collars unless it was written by an individual with some heavy credentials in both training and behavior. That's just my two cents.

I have a few questions, but rather than waste your time with more back and forth, I think I'll start with outlining a couple of stumbling blocks I see and then go over how we teach this in class and let you adapt as you see fit.

For one, in the early stages of leave it, or when increasing difficulty, make sure that whatever you use for your reward is much higher value than the object he's leaving. I'd also recommend that you ask for focus, rather than just looking away, because that's going to imply that he's looking to you for direction or permission. It's very good to build this as a default behavior. Also, I don't think this is an issue, but make sure you're never allowing him to have the bait object and that you always treat from the opposite hand that you baited with (although these should be swapped so he doesn't cue to one hand or the other).

So, here's how we teach this in class:
1 - Treat in closed fist, place in front of the dog (no cueing whatsoever). When the dog stops molesting your hand, click, place bait hand behind your back, treat from your opposite hand. Repeat until the dog "gets" it and is leaving the object within 1-2 seconds of the bait.

2 - Repeat above, but wait and capture eye contact. In some dogs you need to shape this (start with looking at your waist, legs, whatever, gradually wait for eye movement directed closer to your head). Don't progress past this point until you're getting eye contact.

3 - When you are getting eye contact regularly, switch your baited hand to an open palm with the treat in it. If the dog approaches or goes for the treat, close your fist before he can get it. When the dog leaves it alone, palm opens again. When this is happening successfully, start to add the verbal cue. When to cue has been debated somewhat - personally, I like to add it right after the bait (i.e. palm out, then "leave it!") but I'm not convinced that it plays a huge role.

4 - Move to kibbles on the floor (My guess is that you skipped to this part just a little bit fast and the behavior isn't that clear to the dog, or he's only generalized it to kibble, not any object). Start kneeling down and put your palm over it. When that's working, stand up and drop it on a carpeted surface so it doesn't roll, and make sure it lands at your feet. Step on it if you need to prevent the dog from getting it. Eventually you'll want to roll or toss it (the movement increases desire, and you're slowly making this more difficult).

5 - Once you've done that with kibbles, repeat step 4 from the beginning with some novel object, something the dog isn't really familiar with. A ziplock bag? A spoon? Not a toy. Then you can move to higher value treats. If you're going to use a high value treat and it's the same as your reward, I would make sure that you jackpot every time they leave it.

6 - Start practicing on walks with things they tend to lunge for (in my case this is sticks and fallen nuts/berries). Make sure you cue right as they recognize the object and don't allow them to get it, so keep hold of your leash. If they manage to get the object, they're self-rewarding.

It also helps if you don't actually require a cue to leave it. A default leave it is great in the kitchen for when you drop something that you don't want them to have.

Thanks for the progression details! He still mugs my hands, but I think I need to be better about hiding the bait holding hand and such. I think I'll start over from the beginning and make sure he's got a solid foundation with the open palm/closed palm stuff before moving on to stuff on the floor. I'm just eager to teach him this as part of managing really high prey drive with small animals.

# ? May 23, 2012 23:14

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

Remember that you want your dog to succeed in the exercise 80-90% of the time. If you're getting a lot of failures in a row you need to go back a step or two, because the failures are giving you feedback on how successful your training is.

Too many people push their dog to the point of failure in these sorts of exercises. This article might help a bit too: http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2012/02/distraction-work-in-dog-training-a-conversation-between-friends/

Posting not to disagree but hopefully to elicit some discussion with regards to the necessary success rate.

I've had a LOT of issues with getting stuck on a particular stage of training and my dog getting frustrated when I want to get him to offer more. This is particularly true with shaping. After several years of trying, I finally realized why this happens when I trained the chickens at the operant conditioning workshop in May: when you hit an 80% success rate, you need to raise the criteria, i.e. make the task more difficult. If you ask for something that's so easy that the animal gets 4/5 tries correct from the get go you're asking for too little: if a behavior is too easy, it may fall apart just because of that. When shaping, you can start with a success rate of 40-50% (or even lower), work up to a success rate of 80-90% and then move on. I used to get stuck where I waited too long to raise criteria and the dog learned that he doesn't ever need to offer more to earn reinforcement. When I tried to ask for more, he got frustrated and I would even sometimes lower criteria for him to be successful, which didn't help at all.

Something I tell people as a rule of thumb when teaching agility behaviors is that they can raise criteria when they get two good tries in a row. If the dog fails twice in a row they need to lower criteria. It seems to work well when proofing behavior or fading props and lures.

Edit. Even with Leave It I would move on to a more difficult task if the dog is getting 8-9 out of 10 tries correct as long as failure doesn't mean he gets to grab the treat/toy/whatever. Failed tries teach the dog what doesn't work and they are an important part of learning.

Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 12:50 on May 24, 2012

# ? May 24, 2012 12:31

a life less: Jul 12, 2009; We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Rixatrix posted:

Posting not to disagree but hopefully to elicit some discussion with regards to the necessary success rate.

I've had a LOT of issues with getting stuck on a particular stage of training and my dog getting frustrated when I want to get him to offer more. This is particularly true with shaping. After several years of trying, I finally realized why this happens when I trained the chickens at the operant conditioning workshop in May: when you hit an 80% success rate, you need to raise the criteria, i.e. make the task more difficult. If you ask for something that's so easy that the animal gets 4/5 tries correct from the get go you're asking for too little: if a behavior is too easy, it may fall apart just because of that. When shaping, you can start with a success rate of 40-50% (or even lower), work up to a success rate of 80-90% and then move on. I used to get stuck where I waited too long to raise criteria and the dog learned that he doesn't ever need to offer more to earn reinforcement. When I tried to ask for more, he got frustrated and I would even sometimes lower criteria for him to be successful, which didn't help at all.

Something I tell people as a rule of thumb when teaching agility behaviors is that they can raise criteria when they get two good tries in a row. If the dog fails twice in a row they need to lower criteria. It seems to work well when proofing behavior or fading props and lures.

Edit. Even with Leave It I would move on to a more difficult task if the dog is getting 8-9 out of 10 tries correct as long as failure doesn't mean he gets to grab the treat/toy/whatever. Failed tries teach the dog what doesn't work and they are an important part of learning.

I agree with what you're saying. The 80-90% success rate stuff is what I tend to tell people in my beginner obedience classes (whose eyes tend to glaze over if you throw too much information at them), and a lot of the posters in this thread are better versed in training methodology than the clients I'm accustomed to dealing with. Basically, we want to see our dogs succeed more often than they fail, and I'd rather see exercises be a bit too easy than too difficult when teaching basic obedience. I tend to phrase things in a very all-or-nothing sort of way since it seems simpler for those who are just starting out.

I'm still trying to find the sweet spot where I need to increase criteria with Cohen's handstand. For a while there we plateaued since I didn't increase my criteria enough, then I raised it too much, which resulted in frustration and poisoning the exercise. Now I'm seeing some progress again, but it's slow going.

# ? May 24, 2012 14:23

MrFurious: Dec 11, 2003; THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

prom candy posted:

We're in the middle of teaching this behaviour, using pretty much this method to Stella and she's doing really well but we haven't really taught a cue. One thing I've noticed is that she offers the behaviour now even when I'm actually giving her something. What's the best way to teach a release for this?

There are kind of two answers to this. You can teach a release if that's what you want to do. If it is, I'd give your release cue once and only once and then let her have the treat. If it's in your hand, stuff it in her mouth. If it's on the floor, get down on all fours and investigate. I'd expect her to break her behavior and snarf it.

I would actually argue that you don't want to do that, however. Is this an issue with, say, a tug toy? If that's the case, I would put the tug behavior on a cue. This is what we do with our dog, although her default leave it is not phenomenal and we have been lazy lately. We hold out her toy and say "Get It!" and she chomps on her end to start the game.

wtftastic posted:

Thanks for the progression details! He still mugs my hands, but I think I need to be better about hiding the bait holding hand and such. I think I'll start over from the beginning and make sure he's got a solid foundation with the open palm/closed palm stuff before moving on to stuff on the floor. I'm just eager to teach him this as part of managing really high prey drive with small animals.

I'm a little confused by what you mean in regards to hiding the bait hand.
And be careful about relying on this to combat distractions in the field that he wants to chase -- take those very, very slowly and use very high rewards. Work hard to make that behavior chain extremely rewarding for him.

# ? May 24, 2012 14:45

wtftastic: Jul 24, 2006; "In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

MrFurious posted:

There are kind of two answers to this. You can teach a release if that's what you want to do. If it is, I'd give your release cue once and only once and then let her have the treat. If it's in your hand, stuff it in her mouth. If it's on the floor, get down on all fours and investigate. I'd expect her to break her behavior and snarf it.

I would actually argue that you don't want to do that, however. Is this an issue with, say, a tug toy? If that's the case, I would put the tug behavior on a cue. This is what we do with our dog, although her default leave it is not phenomenal and we have been lazy lately. We hold out her toy and say "Get It!" and she chomps on her end to start the game.

I'm a little confused by what you mean in regards to hiding the bait hand.
And be careful about relying on this to combat distractions in the field that he wants to chase -- take those very, very slowly and use very high rewards. Work hard to make that behavior chain extremely rewarding for him.

You said place the bait hand behind my back; I just said hiding to paraphrase.

It is going to take some serious doing to get him to not want to chase anyways. I imagine if he had better leash manners that also might help.

# ? May 24, 2012 15:28

Fraction: Mar 27, 2010; CATS RULE DOGS DROOL

FERRETS ARE ALSO PRETTY MEH, HONESTLY

A little update on Lola's reactivity.

We've been going biking each day for the last week or so. For the last couple of days, I've been taking lowish value food (kibble) with me and feeding her when we stop for other dogs. She's taken it all in stride really well, and today even managed to avoid chomping three spaniels (two with one owner, one a few minutes later with another) that came running up and were jumping up on me to say hello to her. She was twisting to try and snap at the final one, but she still ate food, had barely raised her hackles, and didn't vocalise at all.

# ? May 24, 2012 15:36

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

I tend to phrase things in a very all-or-nothing sort of way since it seems simpler for those who are just starting out.

Yeah that seems to be the way to go. I've found lately I'm a bit too wordy and tend to overwhelm people with information when I teach a class. Keeping things simple is definitely a skill I need to work with myself.

I'm also still struggling to find the balance between asking for too little and asking for too much. I found it surprising it seems most of my training issues are actually due to asking for too little and not progressing quickly enough. I think pushing things a little has done wonders for both the dogs' motivation for training and mine, since I see progress much more quickly. Can you tell me what kind of signals do you look for in Cohen that tell you you're asking for too much? Pi gets barky when he gets frustrated and Rho will just leave. Rho is a bit hard to read, since he will also just leave if he gets bored, i.e. the task is too easy.

# ? May 24, 2012 20:45

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# ? May 16, 2024 17:51

a life less: Jul 12, 2009; We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Cohen barks when she gets frustrated (with some grumbling before the barking), and will try to quit and lay down. She lays down in a sphinx position, and puts her chin between her front paws. :3:

It's a very clear "okay, are we done yet?" signal. I can normally work past her frustration by asking for a few more simple yet rewardable behaviours before trying again.

If we progress too slowly, well, we simply don't get the behaviour I want. She'll plateau, and be more likely to get frustrated when/if I try to raise the criteria at a later date.

# ? May 24, 2012 21:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Pet Island > My dog is smarter than your honor student: the Dog Training Thread

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