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Two questions from someone that is still deciding about their future: I have two years experience as a management consultant at one of the big second tier shops, and I will be moving on to spend my next two years in corporate strategy for a top 50 (in terms of market capitalization) company in the non-banking financial services industry. I then plan on attending a top 10 business school. If I wanted to get into banking after business school, is there anything I should be doing now to set that up, or will my experience be enough to get my foot in the door? Also, is 28 too old to start as a banker coming out of business school? I am still deciding if I will end up staying corporate, going back to consulting, or trying banking.
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May 10, 2012 23:10
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| # ? May 11, 2024 22:48 |
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 got the second highest score of 98 students and an A in the class. Time to discount some cash flows in NY.
Swingline fucked around with this message at 05:56 on May 13, 2012 |
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May 13, 2012 05:45
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If you graduate b-school at 28, you would probably be one of the older associates joining the bank. Most of the associates I've worked with have been in the 26-27 range or younger, but my experience is definitely skewed because my particular group has a disproportionate number of A2As, direct analyst promotes. Other groups may have an older mix. There's nothing inherently wrong with getting in at that age, but it depends where your life is. Few of the associates I've known have been married and I don't think any have had kids, it's just not compatible with the lifestyle. Your hours are going to be comparable to analysts' during the week and while weekends are a bit better, you'll definitely be in the office Saturday and probably Sunday too. Another option would be to try to skip the MBA step entirely. I've met a number of associates that have done so, that is, they started their career in companies and moved directly into banking coverage groups in their industry. It's definitely do-able, but I'm pretty sure everyone I met like that was in a Natural Resources group (either O&G or M&M). Thoogsby posted:I'm mostly interested in breaking into REPE. The difference between REIB and big brokerages with capital markets desks (CBRE/JLL) is making me a little lost. I've never worked in real estate IB, but I took a pretty intensive class in real estate finance last semester taught by a big player in the NY RE scene. Yes, he was as much of a douche as that sounds like. RE PE is generally concerned with getting capital from investors, leveraging, and investing capital in projects. Generally these are classified as core, core plus, value-add, or opportunistic/speculative, in increasing order of the development/building required, and thus the risk/return associated. For the most part, they focus on finding and investing in projects and less on property management or development, but they're still involved after the check clears. CBRE and JLL aren't really brokerages per se, they do literally everything under the sun. Property management, ground-up development, consulting, leasing, you name it. They also do capital markets and loan financing, and what I would describe as borderline investment banking advisory. Their clients for financing are going to be smaller than those you'd work with at a bank. But I think there's a lot of exposure you could get here. RE investment banking for an actually bank is evidently miserable. An alum familiar with my RE class who is also an RE ED at my bank basically said it's nothing like the kind of work we were doing, all of the modeling and business analysis is done by the client. The banks are really just financing partners and post-07 don't do much equity participation. So you're basically a go-between your capital markets (CMBS, DCM, maybe mezz) desks and the client.
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May 14, 2012 04:25
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This conversation was going on in the GBS thread about JPM's "hedging" loss, but GBS is no place to discuss finance.tolerabletariff posted:Agree with the implications for JPM. VaR is poo poo (or at least very rudimentary), but it has the advantage of being simple enough to describe to a WSJ reporter that majored in Comp Lit and PoliSci at Tufts. But at least on the structured credit side, their models go way beyond VaR and ES into some highly involved quantitative poo poo that made my head spin; I doubt the folks in CIO were relying solely on a metric learned in Econometrics II to manage a $375bn hedging portfolio. Are you saying VaR is poo poo in the sense that using computer models to analyze potential losses in general is unreliable, or that VaR is no good, but other, more detailed models can be effective? I'm interested in breaking into IB, but I have yet to attend undergrad, so I have only basic knowledge about IB and S&T. When I look back on incidents like the fall of LTCM and the 2008 recession, it seems that using calculation to try and predict the markets to certainty is impossible because the markets are unpredictable. I can't see how any model could be used to get any more than a ballpark figure about how your holdings might perform, or an outline of how much risk you're exposed to, but I'm not too familiar with how they work. Can any of them tell you what they are portraying to 100% certainty, and if not, are there still banks and traders that take volatile positions based too much upon that data?
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May 15, 2012 08:46
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My interpretation was that VaR is fundamentally flawed because it strictly uses historical volatility and because of this even a 99% confidence interval is still going to ignore the extreme tail risk.
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May 15, 2012 14:28
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That GBS thread about the JPM loss is loving brutal.
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May 16, 2012 16:11
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Thoogsby posted:My interpretation was that VaR is fundamentally flawed because it strictly uses historical volatility and because of this even a 99% confidence interval is still going to ignore the extreme tail risk. That was my line of thinking too. Its worth is just based on how it's used in that case. I could understand how it would be an asset in seeing exactly how much you could stand to lose on a typical market day, but you'd need to keep in mind that the model is just a rough guide. When it comes to actually making investments, especially when they're leveraged, based upon what the model is showing you and assuming it has a complete grasp of how the markets will act, I can't see any scenario where it would be smart to expose yourself to any risk. I'm not sure how prop trad- I mean Chief Investment Offices use them though. Thoogsby posted:That GBS thread about the JPM loss is loving brutal. There's so much to be learned from GBS posters. 
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May 16, 2012 23:06
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Just a comment regarding SF tech banking, I have a few close friends who work for DB tech in SF and met a few of their friends who work for MS tech. It's a brutal culture. The MS guys said they work 100-120 hours a week. Though I guess on the other hand you get to do stuff like Facebook's IPO. edit: Been too busy to post here, but working on some really interesting poo poo. Right now we're forecasting cash flows for two blockbuster movies coming out next summer and helping a studio secure financing to continue production on a movie. This process included reviewing dailies from the recent shoots for the latter. And I barely missed out on accompanying my bosses to Cannes. Cool beans. Its Miller Time fucked around with this message at 02:18 on May 17, 2012 |
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May 17, 2012 02:16
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Its Miller Time posted:edit: Been too busy to post here, but working on some really interesting poo poo. Right now we're forecasting cash flows for two blockbuster movies coming out next summer and helping a studio secure financing to continue production on a movie. This process included reviewing dailies from the recent shoots for the latter. And I barely missed out on accompanying my bosses to Cannes. Cool beans. You have the coolest job.
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May 17, 2012 02:35
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Volkerball posted:This conversation was going on in the GBS thread about JPM's "hedging" loss, but GBS is no place to discuss finance.
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May 17, 2012 02:49
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Does anyone know where I could find a list of middle-market and boutique banks with strong Real Estate groups? Something like this has to exist, right?
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May 17, 2012 18:17
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Thoogsby posted:That GBS thread about the JPM loss is loving brutal. I take exception to being called "reasonable and thoughtful." And I don't even think he was being sarcastic. I'm not even touching that one. ------------------------- In other news, I start full-time analyst training in a month and I haven't even loving graduated yet. I have something like three weeks after commencement to find an place in the city and move all my poo poo there. It also looks increasingly like half my signing bonus (the half that doesn't disappear to taxes, I mean) is going to go up some apartment broker schmuck's nose. I am going from product to coverage (same bank), which the Internet seems to think means more hours for the same pay and a lot of pitching. Does anyone that knows what they're talking about want to share some insight?
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May 19, 2012 22:54
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The associate next to me got fired bad last week. First time I've ever experienced this. The mood in the office is a little funny that day. I took his desk and double monitor setup immediately. I think my bosses liked the ruthlessness. He didn't understand basic concepts of how we model movies 3 months in and was pretty sloppy I guess.
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May 21, 2012 02:24
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I'm already sick of Facebook stock price talk.
Thoogsby fucked around with this message at 14:16 on May 21, 2012 |
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May 21, 2012 03:08
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Ah Facebook there is truly nothing new under the suntolerabletariff posted:I am going from product to coverage (same bank), which the Internet seems to think means more hours for the same pay and a lot of pitching. Does anyone that knows what they're talking about want to share some insight? The answer is broadly yes in terms of more pitching, but then there's lots of variability in everyone's individual experience. Also everyone exaggerates the hours they're putting in
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May 22, 2012 06:35
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Not true, I put in 168 hours per week for real.
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May 22, 2012 14:16
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Admirable Gusto posted:Ah Facebook Please, I don't want to be hopeful. I'm going into IBD expecting the worst. Similar note, are the hours slightly better for new hires during the first month with all the training?
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May 22, 2012 17:28
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fougera posted:Please, I don't want to be hopeful. I'm going into IBD expecting the worst. If you're in training in like a program at a BB your schedule is a breeze and you should enjoy your last days of freedom. If you're starting a new job and hoping the first month will be easy because they're bringing you up to speed you're wrong.
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May 22, 2012 20:24
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My friends that are starting full-time at BBs have all been unofficially informed from analysts in their groups to drink like the world is about to end during training because the real work starts once training ends. The company I'm interning for just announced a new "Summer Hours" initiative where everyone leaves after lunch on Fridays between now and August. It's really a shame the pay in Corporate Finance is so terrible but I guess that's the hit you take for that type of work-life balance.
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May 22, 2012 20:38
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Its Miller Time posted:Just a comment regarding SF tech banking, I have a few close friends who work for DB tech in SF and met a few of their friends who work for MS tech. It's a brutal culture. The MS guys said they work 100-120 hours a week. Though I guess on the other hand you get to do stuff like Facebook's IPO. E-mailed my friends at DB tech to ask their friends at MS tech what's going on. They said "it's loving ugly, heads are rolling, everyone is embarrassed and furious at the same time". Said a lot of the blame is being placed on the Nasdaq and linked to this article http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/nyse-pitches-listing-to-facebook-after-ipo-mess-source/1002721.html They also mentioned they thought MS senior bankers underestimated the number of investors, funds, and other large existing holders interested in exiting at that valuation point. Its Miller Time fucked around with this message at 05:50 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 05:05
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Can I see which insiders sold FB stock and how much? I know Zuck had to file an SEC statement but I'm curious to know if that's just because he is an officer/owns 10%. I'd like to see exactly which employees sold what. Is this possible?
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May 25, 2012 20:01
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Bobx66 posted:Can I see which insiders sold FB stock and how much? I know Zuck had to file an SEC statement but I'm curious to know if that's just because he is an officer/owns 10%. I'd like to see exactly which employees sold what. Is this possible? Do you have FactSet (Lionshare)/Bloomberg/Capital IQ? Any of those can tell you that easily. You can manually check Schedule 13D/13G's (search them manually on Edgar), and for a company like Facebook, any material sale by Zuck will probably be covered by the media. There's really no way to track insiders' holdings in real time if that's what you're thinking. Outside of 13D/13G's, the most recent of shareholder list you can get is as of last reported quarter. I'm not exactly an expert on this so someone might have a better idea but this is pretty much what I do if my MD asks me for an insider transactions analysis vOv.
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May 26, 2012 00:45
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I've also noticed that most people are full of poo poo when they talk about their hours. I mean, not exactly--they just take the heaviest week they've ever worked (for me, ~105 with around 60 fri-sun), subtract a few hours, and make it seem normal. Hence the stories of "90 hours a week, every week, forever." I typically worked about 70-75, but made it sound much worse. Are the series 79/63 exams hard? I'm coming from a liberal arts school with not a great finance background, and only have about a week and a half of formal prep before I take the tests. I've been warned by a VP not to screw around during prep because the exams, especially the 79, are not jokes. Short of spending $200 on an individual course online, does anyone know where I can find prep material? Should I be worried about these? tolerabletariff fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jun 3, 2012 |
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May 29, 2012 06:27
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tolerabletariff posted:I've also noticed that most people are full of poo poo when they talk about their hours. I mean, not exactly--they just take the heaviest week they've ever worked (for me, ~105 with around 60 fri-sun), subtract a few hours, and make it seem normal. Hence the stories of "90 hours a week, every week, forever." I typically worked about 70-75, but made it sound much worse. Absolutely. There's no way those MS tech bankers really work 120 hours a week, I don't believe this is possible for an extended period. 63 is a breeze, it's all procedural and legal stuff you can distill into a few pages of notes, while it's my understanding 79 has actual finance content.
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May 30, 2012 05:00
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The industry group I sat with last summer had it brutal, probably 90-100. M&A however seems to ebb and flow, hoping I get into that...
fougera fucked around with this message at 05:54 on May 30, 2012 |
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May 30, 2012 05:48
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fougera posted:The industry group I sat with last summer had it brutal, probably 90-100. M&A however seems to ebb and flow, hoping I get into that... Definitely the case. Mate of mine at J.P. had a brutal couple of months there, but now he's back to 60-70 hours per week. The Epicurean Dealmaker has a post up, taking John Hempton of Bronte Capital to task over the Facebook IPO. Worth a read, as usual: http://epicureandealmaker.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/as-long-as-right-people-get-shot.html
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May 30, 2012 06:56
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This year has been exceptionally slow. My first year I remember pulling 4 110+ weeks straight, got caught taking (legal) painkillers at work and sent home, getting a staffing email as soon as I got home... This year has been a joke - I used to do all-nighters at least once a month, but now I bitch and moan if an associate had the audacity to email me at 10pm. To be fair, nobody actually works 100% of the time. There is considerable downtime when you're just spinning your chair and reading the news. However I tell this to all the new first years - it's far from just the hours that kill you, it's the complete lack of mental stimulation (90% of the time) due to meaningless/repetitive work plus nonstop unreasonable/asinine requests. Don't worry you'll be jaded and bitter in no time
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May 30, 2012 13:59
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With that said, thoughts on bonuses this summer? next year?
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May 30, 2012 14:54
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fougera posted:With that said, thoughts on bonuses this summer? next year? M&I released their preview a week or so ago. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/2012-investment-banking-bonus-predictions/
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May 30, 2012 15:11
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Thoogsby posted:M&I released their preview a week or so ago. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/2012-investment-banking-bonus-predictions/ Holy crap I had no clue you guys worked on what is basically a 50% total package bonus system. Does everyone get some form of bonus regardless (hence the bands of $$), or are these M&I figures quoted only given to select top performers within a firm?
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May 30, 2012 16:25
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Nam Taf posted:Holy crap I had no clue you guys worked on what is basically a 50% total package bonus system. Does everyone get some form of bonus regardless (hence the bands of $$), or are these M&I figures quoted only given to select top performers within a firm? Unless you work at a truly no-name firm or get laid off it's likely you'll get some percentage of your base salary as a bonus when you're an analyst. The higher you move up in the ranks your bonus will make up a larger percentage of your total compensation assuming a good market (some people got zeros the last time around). The M&I article is mostly focused on BBs and elite boutique banks, which tend to have higher compensation across the board than smaller banks.
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May 30, 2012 16:34
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Nam Taf posted:Holy crap I had no clue you guys worked on what is basically a 50% total package bonus system. Does everyone get some form of bonus regardless (hence the bands of $$), or are these M&I figures quoted only given to select top performers within a firm? Almost everyone in a front office position in finance receives a significant (>50%) amount of their compensation from means besides a traditional salary. Your secretaries and operations people will likely still receive a bonus, it just will most likely not drive their total compensation. It's designed to allow flexibility in compensation due to swings in revenue, which are more volatile in finance, as well as allow the incentivizing of compensation relative to performance. If a big rainmaker isn't getting 10% of the revenues he brings in there's less of an incentive to bring in more revenue and more of an incentive to jump ship to someplace with a better deal. It's similar to the compensation in a sales position, it's almost a commission at the higher echelons. Analyst and associate bonuses tend to fluctuate in tighter bands mostly correlated with the economy and overall group/firm profits and a judgement of their performance relative to their peers. As a personal anecdote things are really loving slow here, I've been getting out at 7-8.
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May 31, 2012 02:32
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Anyone here know anything about M3 Capital Partners out of Chicago? They're a RE IB/PE firm. Trying to set up a call with one of their analysts.
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May 31, 2012 02:42
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My group is getting pounded right now, I haven't even started yet but it's clear there's a lot of capital markets activity. Getting emails from senior bankers that are in the office much later than they should be.
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May 31, 2012 16:31
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Thoogsby posted:M&I released their preview a week or so ago. http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/2012-investment-banking-bonus-predictions/ Hahaha does he seriously expect other BB's to pay more than GS this year? I'm operating under the assumption that I'll get around 40k at most as second year (i.e. good luck getting me to show up before 10 and stay past 9). I'm actually one of more conservative analysts, a couple other 2nd years and 3rd years regularly show up at 11 and leave around 5. I don't think most of us even care about getting fired since no one wants to stay anyway.
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May 31, 2012 23:26
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I'm sorry if that was humor or sarcasm, if it was I definitely haven't picked up on it... Unless you're at UBS or some other sinking ship where presumably no-one gives a single gently caress, it seems pretty hard to believe. Especially since 3rd years are basically associates in training--going a2a, at least at my bank, is almost a condition of the third-year offer--it's hard to imagine any of them acting so cavalier. Also Thoogsby, you should check out Key Bank in Cleveland. It's mainly a retail/commercial bank but they have a good Real Estate IB group, work with a ton of REITs on mostly capital markets type deals. Key isn't really known in IB circles so recruiting might be a little better than the normal crapshoot.
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Jun 3, 2012 22:14
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Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out. I'm pretty much in grind mode at this point. I hate my corporate finance internship and even though I'll most likely get an offer I don't even care at this point. I've been sneaking into empty offices to do informational interviews by phone for the past week and I can't wait to get as far away from here as possible. Something totally unrelated, I would be very interested to hear what people's take on this speech is. It very much runs up against the logic of doing banking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D73mm29XXAw
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Jun 3, 2012 23:56
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I just had my FT IB offer rescinded. I'm still in shock and not really quite sure what to do at this point. It was a boutique bank and more or less my dream job (as far analyst level goes). It's a really strange feeling to go from juggling multiple offers while at a target school to having just graduated with absolutely no prospects or idea where to go from here.
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Jun 4, 2012 21:47
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Leo posted:I just had my FT IB offer rescinded. I'm still in shock and not really quite sure what to do at this point. It was a boutique bank and more or less my dream job (as far analyst level goes). That's awful. What was the reason they gave for rescinding it?
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Jun 4, 2012 21:54
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| # ? May 11, 2024 22:48 |
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My GPA ended up being a few hundredths of a point below the requirement in the offer letter. I take full responsibility for that aspect of it, but I also received the offer having completely disclosed that my GPA was below the minimum and having had verbal confirmation (though clearly from the wrong person) that it was fine. I feel incredibly dumb for not investigating it more or having had some kind of written modification to the offer.
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Jun 4, 2012 22:27
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