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isochronous posted:I believe Kvothe specifically asks a question about this, and the answer is something like "those are animals, we are Adem. would you blah blah blah some other animal comparison?"
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May 31, 2012 18:34
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Above Our Own posted:Yeah and that reason is really lovely and doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny and it's unbelievable that anyone as advanced as the Adem would believe that. You know what? No. It's not that unbelievable. Look at how advanced America is, and then look at some of the batshit crazy things people still believe. Rothfuss makes a lot of dumb mistakes in his writing, but having an "advanced" civilization have some silly, backwards beliefs is not one of them. He's just writing from his own experiences.
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May 31, 2012 19:24
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Ornamented Death posted:You know what? No. It's not that unbelievable. Look at how advanced America is, and then look at some of the batshit crazy things people still believe. Rothfuss makes a lot of dumb mistakes in his writing, but having an "advanced" civilization have some silly, backwards beliefs is not one of them. He's just writing from his own experiences. Keep in mind that he lives in rural Wisconsin.
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May 31, 2012 19:32
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Bizob posted:Keep in mind that he lives in rural Wisconsin. Which only really strengthens my point  .
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May 31, 2012 19:35
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Above Our Own posted:Yeah and that reason is really lovely and doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny and it's unbelievable that anyone as advanced as the Adem would believe that. Unless the Adem are actually right. As has already been discussed, there's been nothing so far in Rothfuss' writing to indicate whether the Adem are right or wrong in their belief; it could very easily be something peculiar to their biology and/or rigorous physical training that makes their theory hold up.
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May 31, 2012 19:41
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Ornamented Death posted:Which only really strengthens my point Yeah, exactly. 
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May 31, 2012 20:37
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Ornamented Death posted:You know what? No. It's not that unbelievable. Look at how advanced America is, and then look at some of the batshit crazy things people still believe. Rothfuss makes a lot of dumb mistakes in his writing, but having an "advanced" civilization have some silly, backwards beliefs is not one of them. He's just writing from his own experiences. FiddlersThree posted:Unless the Adem are actually right. As has already been discussed, there's been nothing so far in Rothfuss' writing to indicate whether the Adem are right or wrong in their belief; it could very easily be something peculiar to their biology and/or rigorous physical training that makes their theory hold up.
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May 31, 2012 20:37
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Side note, when you come across something in a book that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, it's okay to say hey wow the author really dropped the ball in this area. You don't have to invent a bunch of complicated theories that have no basis in the text to make a concept or plot point believable. That's the author's job.
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May 31, 2012 20:40
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Above Our Own posted:Uh, there's a huge difference between a few fringe nutjobs think and what an entire nation believes to be true. You realize that the Adem are presented as a technologically and spiritually advanced culture with millenia of history and not just a few ninja tribes out in the mountains, right? I wasn't talking about fringe nutjobs. Somewhere around 25% of Americans think the President of the United States isn't an American. About 20% of Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth, that the lottery is a sound financial investment, and that alien abductions really happen. Really I could go on and on about crazy poo poo that a respectable percentage of Americans, far more than can be categorized as fringe nutjobs without really straining the definition of that term beyond the breaking point, think is true. My point is that latching onto a silly belief that the Adem Kvothe has interacted with hold, and running it into the ground like so many of you are doing, is absurd. Advanced cultures have silly beliefs, this is nothing new. There are so many other major problems with the writing in these books that it's kind of silly how much effort has been spent on a non-issue like this  .quote:Side note, when you come across something in a book that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, it's okay to say hey wow the author really dropped the ball in this area. You don't have to invent a bunch of complicated theories that have no basis in the text to make a concept or plot point believable. That's the author's job. Absolutely. But it's also important not to hold weird as hell double standards. A relatively advanced culture having a squirrelly belief throws you out of the story, but a giant fire-breathing lizard hopped on smack is A-OK? Come on, now.
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May 31, 2012 20:59
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Above Our Own posted:There's been nothing to suggest that their anatomy is any different from other normal human beings so I'm not understanding where you're getting this from. And rigorous training doesn't make humans or any animal spontaneously get pregnant so I really don't think it's that. I disagree. I think they have been presented as a culture of people with tremendous control over their bodies, and (to me, at least) it's not too far-fetched that this control might be exhibited in ways other than kicking rear end with kung fu. I'm not arguing that this must be how things work for the Adem, but just presenting one possible and (again, to me) reasonable explanation of how it might. If it doesn't work for you, if it's too far-fetched for you to be able suspend your disbelief, then, hey -- more power to you. But I think it's a bit much for you to argue that not having this particular mystery explained to your satisfaction makes Rothfuss an Objectively Bad Writer. Above Our Own posted:Side note, when you come across something in a book that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, it's okay to say hey wow the author really dropped the ball in this area. You don't have to invent a bunch of complicated theories that have no basis in the text to make a concept or plot point believable. That's the author's job. I agree. However, I also don't think that its necessary for authors to answer every question their books raise. I enjoy reading Lovecraft precisely because he leaves so much unexplained. Also, I'd just like to point out (as I did when we last spun around this merry-go-round a few pages ago) that Rothfuss is not finished writing these books. You're criticizing a story half-told for not answering one of the questions it has raised. Granted, it may be that after the last book comes out, we'll find ourselves back here and I'll be agreeing with every one of your complaints about the series, but for now, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him finish what he started before passing too damning of a judgment. Maybe I'm just a particularly forgiving reader?
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May 31, 2012 21:00
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FiddlersThree posted:Maybe I'm just a particularly forgiving reader? Ornamented Death posted:Absolutely. But it's also important not to hold weird as hell double standards. A relatively advanced culture having a squirrelly belief throws you out of the story, but a giant fire-breathing lizard hopped on smack is A-OK? Come on, now.
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May 31, 2012 21:41
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Above Our Own posted:Yeah and I'm a particularly critical one. Things like this jump out and pull me out of the story a little. Yep. http://www.gallup.com/poll/3742/new-poll-gauges-americans-general-knowledge-levels.aspx. Although you shouldn't take the results too seriously. You could put any goddamn thing you wanted in a yes-no Gallup poll and get a 'shockingly high' percentage of people answering the wrong thing. It gets good headlines and people like using the political ones to attack the other side (see: birthers and 9/11 truthers).
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May 31, 2012 21:49
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Sir Bruce posted:Yep. http://www.gallup.com/poll/3742/new-poll-gauges-americans-general-knowledge-levels.aspx. Although you shouldn't take the results too seriously. You could put any goddamn thing you wanted in a yes-no Gallup poll and get a 'shockingly high' percentage of people answering the wrong thing. It gets good headlines and people like using the political ones to attack the other side (see: birthers and 9/11 truthers). Or maybe I'm just being too critical again 
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May 31, 2012 21:59
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Above Our Own posted:Ok yeah I seriously doubt the polling methodology and sample sizes are anywhere near rigorous enough for the data to be worth a dollar fifty. They're just selling headlines with those kind of "surveys." While I don't think you're being too critical, I also don't think the numbers are as far off as you would want to believe. People really do believe in some wacky poo poo, and group reinforcement is a very real thing even in smart circles. Hell it happens in academia all the time.
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May 31, 2012 22:00
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Above Our Own posted:Ok yeah I seriously doubt the polling methodology and sample sizes are anywhere near rigorous enough for the data to be worth a dollar fifty. They're just selling headlines with those kind of "surveys." The survey and sample design are fine, it's just that there's reasons to be skeptical about what responses really mean.
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May 31, 2012 22:06
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Sir Bruce posted:Yep. http://www.gallup.com/poll/3742/new-poll-gauges-americans-general-knowledge-levels.aspx. Although you shouldn't take the results too seriously. You could put any goddamn thing you wanted in a yes-no Gallup poll and get a 'shockingly high' percentage of people answering the wrong thing. It gets good headlines and people like using the political ones to attack the other side (see: birthers and 9/11 truthers). What I got out of this poll is that Americans may or may not be right about things but they are certainly less likely to admit they have no idea than Germans and Brits. If you can't be right, be definite! Gallup does good surveys so I wouldn't doubt how it was conducted but Sir Bruce is right that simple Yes / No general population survey questions are pretty meaningless.
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May 31, 2012 22:49
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Don't forget that the Adem is a culture where everyone fucks constantly, so they can't logically observe the effects of an absence of loving. loving would have to be more prevalent than even fighting, since they can observe that fighting can result in death, but can't observe that loving results in babies. Yeah, Christ... This is a lovely bit of writing. I don't get how a culture can be so goddamn snobby about how awesome they are without having the self awareness to realize that spooge in a squack = baby. Oh well, I can let it pass, the rest is so good.
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Jun 1, 2012 04:32
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Kynetx posted:Don't forget that the Adem is a culture where everyone fucks constantly, so they can't logically observe the effects of an absence of loving. loving would have to be more prevalent than even fighting, since they can observe that fighting can result in death, but can't observe that loving results in babies. Well, fighting results pretty obviously in death in a way that loving doesn't result pretty obviously in babies, assuming you're loving 24/7.
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Jun 1, 2012 04:52
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Kynetx posted:Don't forget that the Adem is a culture where everyone fucks constantly, so they can't logically observe the effects of an absence of loving. loving would have to be more prevalent than even fighting, since they can observe that fighting can result in death, but can't observe that loving results in babies. Let it be noted that there are times when the Adem aren't constantly loving, namely when a merc takes a job and goes out into the wide world. It's also worth noting that while the two or three Adem Kvothe talks about this subject with state these things as fact, they're all from one village and the whole of Adem might not hold these beliefs. It seems reasonable to accept that a fairly remote community almost entirely dedicated to the art of fighting might wholeheartedly believe something the rest of the nation thinks is some backwoods bullshit and that they're all nuts for loving so much. At the same time, this could have been illustrated with Kvothe asking an Adem midwife about it and getting told that Penthe is somewhat naive in that department, due to practicing all her life with a single minded determination so as to be so good she can seriously challenge the leader of the school in what, her twenties? Give or take. So it probably could have used some editting, and is a poor bit of writing on the authors part. And in conclusion, it could seriously be magic. We know there's more than one system, at least three in fact, sympathy, naming, and shaping. Potentially a fourth in the writing magic Denna asks about. Which could mean the Lethani is yet another, a sort of physical naming where one comes to know their own body so well as to turn a step of a foot n a half to dodge a kick into a perfect step, or even decide when to ovulate, and so forth. This is supported a bit by the great wizard Kvothe, master of all known magic, finds a state of mind that makes the Lethani easier to perform, similarly to the way he's taught a state of mind that makes breaking his mind and performing sympathy easier.
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Jun 1, 2012 05:25
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Raposa posted:Let it be noted that there are times when the Adem aren't constantly loving, namely when a merc takes a job and goes out into the wide world. It's also worth noting that while the two or three Adem Kvothe talks about this subject with state these things as fact, they're all from one village and the whole of Adem might not hold these beliefs. It seems reasonable to accept that a fairly remote community almost entirely dedicated to the art of fighting might wholeheartedly believe something the rest of the nation thinks is some backwoods bullshit and that they're all nuts for loving so much.
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Jun 1, 2012 06:03
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Kynetx posted:Don't forget that the Adem is a culture where everyone fucks constantly, so they can't logically observe the effects of an absence of loving. loving would have to be more prevalent than even fighting, since they can observe that fighting can result in death, but can't observe that loving results in babies. You're basing this on the idea that the Adem are wrong. This isn't the real world, and we don't have all the facts yet. Maybe it'll turn out in book 3 that they really ARE different. Or maybe we'll find out they're ridiculously backward about this and Rothfuss intended them to be pigheadedly wrong about this the whole time. Either way, everyone blasting this for "omg this is unbelievable" is jumping the gun a little bit.
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Jun 1, 2012 07:47
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Above Our Own posted:Nobody can say you're wrong with absolute certainty, but we're into Russel's Teapot territory. I think it's a good philosophy in literature discussion to avoid proposing theories unless they have some ground in the text; the novel's ideas should originate from the author. I feel it's the author's job to validate his concepts this way and if he fails to do so it's just shabby writing. I agree completely, that said as I understand it originally this was all one giant book written while he was still in college, and when he took it to a publisher he somehow conned them into letting him edit and rewrite the whole thing into a trilogy. Could be wrong there but I know for sure his editors don't do much. So really all I'm saying is let's wait til the last book is out, and if the Adem shenanigans are never brought up again and they really do all believe its up to a conscious decision on the woman's part to grow a baby, then let's lay into the guy. But if about halfway through Kvothe finds an ancient text showing how the Adem are the remains of some militantly physically shapers and it is magic and the women do just straight up shape a baby, then drat that was some crazy set-up. And if you don't think that's a kinda cool world building moment then it's not your thing and feel free to criticize it as poor writing. But I for one enjoy this Gary stu adventure story, and am willing to wait til the end to judge its crazy ninja sex community and celtic gently caress-moves-from-the-kama-sutra fairy magic.
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Jun 1, 2012 07:52
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Has anyone heard any rumours regarding the release date of book 3? I know that book 2 was finished for ages, and then spent something like 2 years in editing.  Is it the same deal here? A (cursory) Google didn't turn up anything of note, but hopefully someone has spent a bit more time/effort on this than I have. 
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Jun 8, 2012 02:15
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Next year at the absolute earliest. I really wouldn't expect anything until 2014, though.
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Jun 8, 2012 02:29
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Hey, Rothfuss-loving goons. I just finished "Wise Man's Fears" and I have no loving clue what to read next. I've read GRRM, Joe Abercrombie, Brent Weeks, Robin Hobb.. What else has this same "feel" to it?
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Jun 10, 2012 16:13
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TShields posted:Hey, Rothfuss-loving goons. I just finished "Wise Man's Fears" and I have no loving clue what to read next. I've read GRRM, Joe Abercrombie, Brent Weeks, Robin Hobb.. What else has this same "feel" to it? Stephen Brust maybe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragaera It's more of a Fantasy-Noir sometimes though.
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Jun 10, 2012 16:22
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TShields posted:Hey, Rothfuss-loving goons. I just finished "Wise Man's Fears" and I have no loving clue what to read next. I've read GRRM, Joe Abercrombie, Brent Weeks, Robin Hobb.. What else has this same "feel" to it?
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Jun 10, 2012 16:28
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Thanks guys. Soon after I asked in-thread, the friend who recommended Rothfuss in the first place recommended Brandon Sanderson's "Mistborn" trilogy. That any good? Also, to actually contribute to the discussion, I think the Adem are just being pigheaded about their notions of where babies come from for all the same reasons why certain people in our world are nutty about their religious views. Things are the way they are because that's what they were taught and gently caress you for questioning it! and all that.. I'm from the American "South", I know all too well how fanatical fanatics can be about their belief system. Another component could be that they're far too busy with learning how to kick rear end to wonder about such things, or possibly that the women who are out loving constantly are also out training vigorously and getting gut-punched by their peers. I have a very narrow understanding of physiology, but I have to imagine that would probably lead to some sort of level of infertility or a high rate of miscarriage, so they're probably just misinterpreting the world around them.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:00
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TShields posted:Thanks guys. Soon after I asked in-thread, the friend who recommended Rothfuss in the first place recommended Brandon Sanderson's "Mistborn" trilogy. That any good? I'd also say that Brent Weeks's The Way of Shadows is similar in tone and subject matter to Rothfuss. The protagonist who starts as an orphan before being given apprenticeship by a magically blessed assassin. Of course, the protagonist is also magically blessed, so there's that. Like Rothfuss, it revels in fantasy tropes rather than trying to subvert them.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:15
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The Nightrunner series by Lynn Flewelling is slightly fluffier fantasy but also decent. More about spies than magicians though.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:21
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Mistborn is a pretty enjoyable read but it definitely handles the world building a lot better than its characters. The first book is the best of the trilogy so it's worth giving it a shot.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:29
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TShields posted:Hey, Rothfuss-loving goons. I just finished "Wise Man's Fears" and I have no loving clue what to read next. I've read GRRM, Joe Abercrombie, Brent Weeks, Robin Hobb.. What else has this same "feel" to it?
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Jun 10, 2012 17:43
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Above Our Own posted:Seconding Lies of Locke Lamora. Thirding this. It's a loving blast.
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Jun 11, 2012 00:01
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Lies of Locke Lamora might be my favorite fantasy book. Red Seas isn't as good though.
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Jun 11, 2012 01:52
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Already read Locke Lamora and passed it on to a friend! Thanks for that, though- glad to see I've made good literary choices!
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Jun 11, 2012 02:13
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Benson Cunningham posted:Lies of Locke Lamora might be my favorite fantasy book. Red Seas isn't as good though. That's what I've heard, but I still want to pick it up sometime.
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Jun 11, 2012 02:58
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TShields posted:Thanks guys. Soon after I asked in-thread, the friend who recommended Rothfuss in the first place recommended Brandon Sanderson's "Mistborn" trilogy. That any good? I'm doing a re-reading of both books and getting to the end of Kvothe's imprisonment/training/brainwashing among the Adem. The are an incredibly racist, insular and ignorant people. They see themselves as enlightened, but tolerance and knowledge are not considered "civilization" to them. I wonder if the Man Mothers hypothesis is a symptom of their culturally-inherent xenophobia. They don't seem to know any more of Sympathy or any of the other arcane arts than the Vintish, and maybe less of conventional arts such as smithing and medicine. I find them to be a distasteful mish-mash of Japanese, Noble Savage and Nordic stereotypes. Other theories I've had in this run-through I'm anxious to talk about : Denna is Netalia Lackless Bredon is Denna's Mr. Ash I had thought that Bast might be Felurian, but since he didn't know about the Cthaeh, I'm wondering who he is. He clearly adores Kvolthe, so I'm not sure.
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Jun 11, 2012 05:32
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Aggro posted:All five of Sanderson's novels are very good. I highly recommend Mistborn. Scott Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamora is also a great read. Weeks also has a new series out, The Lightbringer. It's only got one book so far, though part 2 should be out soon. It's got a fairly interesting magic system (based on colors/light). It doesn't subvert anything, but it's a reasonably interesting universe. TShields posted:Hey, Rothfuss-loving goons. I just finished "Wise Man's Fears" and I have no loving clue what to read next. I've read GRRM, Joe Abercrombie, Brent Weeks, Robin Hobb.. What else has this same "feel" to it? Aside from everything Sanderson has written (Mistborn, Alloy of Law, Elantris, Warbreaker and Way of Kings), check out Glen Cook's The Black Company - the first omnibus at a minimum. The others are good, but kind of go off the rails a bit.
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Jun 11, 2012 05:35
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Kynetx posted:Denna is Netalia Lackless Not sure about the Denna stuff, just that whatever comes better be a big reveals. I don't think Bredon is Mr Ash, in the end. I'm fairly sure it's supposed to be Cinder. And Bast being Kvolthe's son - possibly by Felurian - seems pretty likely to me. He seems more like someone who grew up hearing how awesome Kvolthe is than someone who knew him before.
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Jun 11, 2012 05:39
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I think there's pretty good evidence that Kvothe's mother is Natalia Lockless, and none really for Denna.
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Jun 11, 2012 06:12
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