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EgillSkallagrimsson
May 6, 2007

Rhyno posted:

Can we talk about horror tv series in this thread? I've been trying to track down any episodes of Monsters and Tales from the Dark Side but I've totally struck out. I have some really fond memories of watching those shows and I'd love to revisit them.

If they've never had a DVD release then you're probably going to have to hunt on some p2p networks (ed2k is usually good for this type of stuff) or hope that Chiller runs a marathon in the not too distant future.

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Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

EgillSkallagrimsson posted:

If they've never had a DVD release then you're probably going to have to hunt on some p2p networks (ed2k is usually good for this type of stuff) or hope that Chiller runs a marathon in the not too distant future.

I forgot that Chiller occasionally ran them, thanks for the tip!

Keanu Grieves
Dec 30, 2002

Some YouTube videos shared by my professor as we proceed to tackle gender in horror:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SEcqeyp1AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Puta8k8fU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH8JuizIXw8

None of these videos really deal specifically with horror or say anything new, but they (especially the last two) do crystallize gender/cinema issues in an entertaining, informative way.

Keanu Grieves fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jun 5, 2012

Call Me Charlie
Dec 3, 2005

by Smythe

Rhyno posted:

Can we talk about horror tv series in this thread? I've been trying to track down any episodes of Monsters and Tales from the Dark Side but I've totally struck out. I have some really fond memories of watching those shows and I'd love to revisit them.

Tales From The Dark Side received a full DVD release. Although some people freaked out because they subbed some of the music out instead of paying the royalties.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ASIN=B003VJTGNE

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?
Grimey Drawer

EgillSkallagrimsson posted:

If they've never had a DVD release then you're probably going to have to hunt on some p2p networks (ed2k is usually good for this type of stuff) or hope that Chiller runs a marathon in the not too distant future.

I remember being a kid and seeing a Monsters episode about the Grim Reaper making a deal with this guy in an old folks home, and I was so god damned jazzed at the time because it was based off a short story I had read the week before.

I was like "OH poo poo!!!! I KNOW THIS!!!! OH drat I READ THIS STORY I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY MAKE SHOWS BASED OFF BOOKS!"

I was not a smart child, but the show (and story) twas awesome :allears:

EC
Jul 10, 2001

The Legend

Ariza posted:

I know the internet hates Firefly now, but Nathan Fillion was the main reason that movie was so great. He's got really good timing and a strong everyman appeal. I know he moved on to some crime TV show that's probably dumb, but I really wish he'd stick with horror comedies. Maybe a team up with other Firefly guy and fat Reaper guy in Tucker and Dale and Randy vs Evil.

As an aside, the TV show he's on is pretty dumb, but it has a charm to it that is mostly due to Fillion. They also seem to have fun with the format of the show, doing lots of gimmick episodes that you can geek out on. I wouldn't call myself a fan, but I'll occasionally watch an episode if I stumble across it.

OT: Does Threads count as a horror movie? I hope so, because I want other people to talk about it with. I was pretty destroyed by it, to be honest. For that to have aired on broadcast TV back in the 80s is pretty crazy.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

EC posted:

OT: Does Threads count as a horror movie? I hope so, because I want other people to talk about it with. I was pretty destroyed by it, to be honest. For that to have aired on broadcast TV back in the 80s is pretty crazy.

I think it's a horror movie, and I'm sure most people in this thread have seen it. Go for it!

EC
Jul 10, 2001

The Legend

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

I think it's a horror movie, and I'm sure most people in this thread have seen it. Go for it!

Sweet, I'll just post what I put in another thread about it:
---

In an inspired bit of movie picking acumen, we watched Threads last night. It's half documentary and half drama, and simultaneously tells the story of a post nuclear attack on a very large scale and a very small scale. I have no idea how accurate the movie is, although according to Wikipedia it used a lot of info from actual British plans. It is extraordinarily horrifying, though.

The story if a few people leading up to and then after the bomb hammers home one thing: it's far more merciful to die than to survive the attack. The special effects are a bit dated, but are still very startling: melted corpses, survivors stuggling with missing limbs, etc. Don't even get me started in the hospital scene. The climax to all the personal trauma is one of the most powerful scenes I've ever watched, and when I glanced over I wasn't surprised to see the same wide eyed stare on my wife that I had.

The large scale story, told using a combination of on screen text and narration, is similarly horrifying. England is a shell of a country, with millions dead or dying and crops almost non-existent. The government makes some harsh decisions ("what's the point of feeding people who will die anyway?" asks one person in charge) and although your first reaction is horror, you quickly realize that there's little else that they can do.

I'm not sure how I missed this one over the years, apparently it caused quite a stir when it was originally released. What a movie.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Sporadic posted:

Tales From The Dark Side received a full DVD release. Although some people freaked out because they subbed some of the music out instead of paying the royalties.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ASIN=B003VJTGNE

This is glorious and I'm buying it as soon as I get paid tomorrow.

foodfight
Feb 10, 2009
I just watched Cure and really loved it. As confusing as it is to watch it it is actually a pretty straight forward film. The plot of the movie is that people are randomly murdering people and slicing an X in their throat. A detective discovers that the common thread in all the murders is an amnesiac. Really great if you like atmospheric slow burns. I'm definitely gonna check out Charisma and Pulse next.

Nemesis Of Moles
Jul 25, 2007

EgillSkallagrimsson posted:

I'd be interested in this, too. My knowledge of Russian cinema begins and ends with Daywatch/Nightwatch, a flying car movie, and some lesbian vampire movie.:blush:

Not really HorrorChat, but Russian cinema is some interesting poo poo and you'd do yourself a service to, at least, watch Stalker.

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.

foodfight posted:

I just watched Cure and really loved it. As confusing as it is to watch it it is actually a pretty straight forward film. The plot of the movie is that people are randomly murdering people and slicing an X in their throat. A detective discovers that the common thread in all the murders is an amnesiac. Really great if you like atmospheric slow burns. I'm definitely gonna check out Charisma and Pulse next.

Pulse is brilliant. It managed to get under my skin like so few films do. It reminds me of David Lynch in that regard. Some of it is abstract, and it gets confusing, but I think that's where the power in that film lies.

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.

jeremy oval office posted:

Some YouTube videos shared by my professor as we proceed to tackle gender in horror:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SEcqeyp1AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Puta8k8fU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH8JuizIXw8

None of these videos really deal specifically with horror or say anything new, but they (especially the last two) do crystallize gender/cinema issues in an entertaining, informative way.

It's older, but I found the book "Men, Women, and Chainsaws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film," entertaining, which I bring up to ask if you have any other books to recommend dealing with the subject?

Beaucoup Cuckoo
Apr 10, 2008

Uncle Seymour wants you to eat your beans.

Rhyno posted:

Can we talk about horror tv series in this thread? I've been trying to track down any episodes of Monsters and Tales from the Dark Side but I've totally struck out. I have some really fond memories of watching those shows and I'd love to revisit them.

Not quite horror, but I've been spending some time watching Tales from the Crypt again. The show is very well done. Brilliant cameos. Excellent acting from some of the most unlikely people. Pun-tastic openings that usually are not so groan inducing. The first two movies aren't terrible either. I even watched one recently that was directed by Tobe Hooper.

Definitely worth looking up for the better episodes. Got to love HBO programming.

And the intro is awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae5XwkSguNI

Beaucoup Cuckoo fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jun 5, 2012

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.

Beaucoup Cuckoo posted:

Not quite horror, but I've been spending some time watching Tales from the Crypt again. The show is very well done. Brilliant cameos. Excellent acting from some of the most unlikely people. Pun-tastic openings that usually are not so groan inducing. The first two movies aren't terrible either. I even watched one recently that was directed by Tobe Hooper.

Definitely worth looking up for the better episodes. Got to love HBO programming.

And the intro is awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae5XwkSguNI


I've watched a lot on and off over the last year or so and it's way more hit-and-miss than I initially thought. Each season has some classics, but by the end it really starts to taper off. The first season is great though (And only 8 episodes long).

Only other horror show I like is 'Supernatural'. Don't let the 'hunky leads' put you off as they're both great in their roles. The show is legitimately funny and has some gore that I'm surprised they could get away with on TV.

By and large the first season is hit and miss as it's mainly standalone episodes, but the last 4 or 5 really ramp it up.

woodenchicken
Aug 19, 2007

Nap Ghost

Hollis posted:

This is a unusual request, but does anyone have some recommendations for Russian horror films? I just realized I've never seen one and I've seen horror films from most countries.
A quick search brought up a couple dozen titles most of which I haven't even heard of before, and i like horror. Basically, you couldn't make such decadent cinema under Soviet regime, so there isn't much of a tradition to draw from. These recent movies are probably inspired by western and Asian horror, at least that's what it seems like from the descriptions. But I guess it wouldn't be fair just to assume they're crap, perhaps I'll check out some that sound more promising.

One movie that comes to mind that actually made a splash here is 'Gruz 200' (Cargo 200), an abduction film by Alexei Balabanov. It depicts late Soviet society as a sort of degenerate hell, and was intended to knock the rose-tinted glasses off from those who think USSR was all sweet. Warning: it's pretty messed up. If you consider films like 'The Woman' to be unwatchable, stay away.
Here's the whole thing on Youtube with English subtitles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcDv9hsm7xQ
The quality is poo poo though. But it must have had some kind of English release at some point, it's from a high-profile director.


Now here's one you're never gonna see on DVD: Posrednik (The Mediator). A super underrated 1990 invasion movie. The mind-controlling aliens are trying to isolate a small Soviet town, establish a beachhead and send back the signal for a full-scale attack. Not much in the way of thrills and chills, just enormous sense of dread building slowly over 3 hours with long shots, sepia palette, deafening ambient soundtrack and slow, grave conversations. I loving love it so much.
A guy on Youtube was putting it up with (somewhat broken) English subtitles, but crapped out about 30% in.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL29C1B55ACC6C0E7D

The entire movie is hosted officially here, but it has no translation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6qj2mALs7g
A full English text is floating around on the Internet, but I guess nobody could be arsed to turn it into proper subs. What a shame.

woodenchicken fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jun 5, 2012

Beaucoup Cuckoo
Apr 10, 2008

Uncle Seymour wants you to eat your beans.

DrVenkman posted:

I've watched a lot on and off over the last year or so and it's way more hit-and-miss than I initially thought. Each season has some classics, but by the end it really starts to taper off. The first season is great though (And only 8 episodes long).

Only other horror show I like is 'Supernatural'. Don't let the 'hunky leads' put you off as they're both great in their roles. The show is legitimately funny and has some gore that I'm surprised they could get away with on TV.

By and large the first season is hit and miss as it's mainly standalone episodes, but the last 4 or 5 really ramp it up.

I think the last couple of season were produced in the UK by a different group of people.

It's hilarious how if there's a character that doesn't seem to fit in or add to the equation in an obvious way, he or she is probably just a loving vampire.

Keanu Grieves
Dec 30, 2002

Twin Cinema posted:

It's older, but I found the book "Men, Women, and Chainsaws: Gender in the Modern Horror Film," entertaining, which I bring up to ask if you have any other books to recommend dealing with the subject?
My professor has no shortage of book recommendations so I'll try and snag a list.

rxcowboy
Sep 13, 2008

I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth; fucked both a chick and her mom

I will get anal. Oh yes.
Finally got around to watching Tucker and Dale vs Evil. On of the best horror-comedy mixes I've seen in a long time, and it was oddly touching at times. Well done, and the two actors playing the rednecks both did excellent jobs.

Bonk
Aug 4, 2002

Douche Baggins
Been looking back through some posts in this thread, and noticed that The Divide was pretty polarizing. Rough score on Rotten Tomatoes too. I honestly don't see why; I really enjoyed it, but you have to be in the mood for something really bleak and nihilistic. I loved The Road, and I thought this could've served as a prequel, easily. It'd be a good double-feature for a soul-crushing post-apocalyptic movie night.

It's probably about 15-20 minutes longer than it needs to be, but I don't get some of the bigger criticisms. In the film's defense:

The hazmat suit guys are pretty obviously taking healthy children to preserve the human race. Not much more needs to be said. Not addressing them again is exactly what would happen in this situation: You know as little about it as the survivors in the bunker do. It also makes the situation more hopeless, as now they're sealed in. It's not all that relevant to plot, but it's the catalyst for literally everything else that happens.

The characters do an excellent flip-flop from hero to villain and vice-versa. Some of them went completely nutcakes, but you tell me how YOU'd act in this situation if it were real. You're sealed in, things are degenerating, you're likely dying from radiation poisoning, your child was kidnapped at gunpoint, etc. Some people will snap into "Don't give a gently caress" mode faster than others.

The ending was a lot better than people seem to give it credit for. Eva had no other choice but to escape on her own. They established the buildup for it throughout the film, so it's not like it was a spur of the moment choice. Mickey turned out to be an okay guy, but he was also a selfish loose cannon and killer, and Sam joined Josh's group and tried to force himself on her. They very much would've been the next Josh and Bobby, and she had to take the only chance she had with the one remaining suit. It's also Eva's story throughout; she's the first and last character we see. It also paves the way for that fantastic final sequence. And Jean-Pierre Taieb's score is absolutely haunting. :allears:

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Sporadic posted:

Tales From The Dark Side received a full DVD release. Although some people freaked out because they subbed some of the music out instead of paying the royalties.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ASIN=B003VJTGNE

This show used to scare the absolute poo poo out of me when I was a kid ("MAN LIVES... in a sunlit world he believes to be REALITY..." that opening was terrifying).

Now I sometimes catch an episode in the morning on Chiller before heading to work and can't help but think, 8 year old ruddiger must have been a HUGE pussy.

EgillSkallagrimsson
May 6, 2007

ruddiger posted:

Now I sometimes catch an episode in the morning on Chiller before heading to work and can't help but think, 8 year old ruddiger must have been a HUGE pussy.
Child version of me was way more creeped out by the openings to a lot of these old anthology series than the actual shows themselves.

TheBigBudgetSequel
Nov 25, 2008

It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.
Cryptkeeper was scary as poo poo to a child BigBudgetSequel. Now I find him awesome and hilarious.

Das Boo
Jun 9, 2011

There was a GHOST here.
It's gone now.

ruddiger posted:

This show used to scare the absolute poo poo out of me when I was a kid ("MAN LIVES... in a sunlit world he believes to be REALITY..." that opening was terrifying).

Now I sometimes catch an episode in the morning on Chiller before heading to work and can't help but think, 8 year old ruddiger must have been a HUGE pussy.

Naw, that opening was legitimately unsettling. I watched the crap out of horror movies as a kid and while It was the only thing to terrify me, that intro did a good job of creeping me the hell out. But of course, I'd run over to the TV every time I heard the music starting up, so... Being scared is fun! :v:

Whargoul
Dec 4, 2010

No, Babou, that was all sarcasm.
YES, ALL OF IT, YOU FOX-EARED ASSHOLE!

I was conducting a series of interviews with metal bands a few years ago, and the question was "What is your all time favorite horror movie?"

Dez Fafara from DevilDriver chose Viy, and gave a pretty interesting story about it. It peeked my interest because it was the only answer given that I didn't know about. I ordered it on Amazon and loved it. Very atmospheric. It also spooked the hell out of my wife.

If you really love the horror genre, I think that you should appreciate this film.

edit: autocorrect.

Whargoul fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jun 7, 2012

the_american_dream
Apr 12, 2008

GAHDAMN

TheBigBudgetSequel posted:

Cryptkeeper was scary as poo poo to a child BigBudgetSequel. Now I find him awesome and hilarious.

I remember the cartoon being pretty funny as well



edit: That was back in 1993??? :psyduck:


ah the one I remember was 97 that makes more sense

the_american_dream fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jun 6, 2012

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters
So, has anyone heard of BXX Haunted? It's an interesting attempt at a sort of 'found footage' horror, where a group of researchers set up cameras in a haunted house and try to contact the supernatural. But instead of giving you a two-hour, edited tape, you're handed the entire set of tapes, nearly three days of footage with something like a dozen cameras set up to record it all.

It's a little strange, in that if you want you can skip right forward to the climax, or watch various scenes play out beforehand, trying not to miss the various conversations/events that occur throughout the house. I thought it's a neat little experiment in horror film-making.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?
Grimey Drawer
I remember being a young, wee lad of maybe 6 or 7 years old, and tuning my black and white tv to channel 26, and watching elvira (who I was in LOVE with), and also MORGUS THE MAGNIFICENT, and then Tales from the DARK SIDE.

I loving DOVE under the sheets until that intro was over.

When I remember learning that Data was also the preacher from that episode where Grandpa wouldn't admit he died, it blew my wee little mind :psyduck:

I am tempted to buy the dvds, but I think it's one of those "This was way better in my head" kinda things, where it rocked when I was a kid and spooked so bad I peed in the trashcan instead of walking through that HUGE, DARK, LONG HALLWAY cause gently caress that noise, that's where yoda hid and would get me.

I guess what I am saying is, I was a hosed up kid who really liked brunettes with big boobs and cleavage showing dresses.

Korak
Nov 29, 2007
TV FACIST

Beaucoup Cuckoo posted:

Not quite horror, but I've been spending some time watching Tales from the Crypt again. The show is very well done. Brilliant cameos. Excellent acting from some of the most unlikely people. Pun-tastic openings that usually are not so groan inducing. The first two movies aren't terrible either. I even watched one recently that was directed by Tobe Hooper.

Definitely worth looking up for the better episodes. Got to love HBO programming.

And the intro is awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae5XwkSguNI
My dad would purposely scare me every single time during the opening and I would jump ten feet in the air every single time. Fucker. We still laugh about it till this day. Tales from the Crypt opening is a good example of how pacing and music can get you in a mood.

For some reason the Joe Pesci one is still stuck in my head to this day.

cool kids inc.
May 27, 2005

I swallowed a bug

Spent this afternoon bored out of my skull so I went through netflix to see if I could see any interesting horror flicks.

I came across Muoi: The Legend of a Portrait. (The link is spoilerific, be careful going in)

Asian horror isn't my typical bag, as I find that it usually tries way way too hard to be booooooscary, but I thought it was nicely creepy. There's something juuuust off from the very beginning and the sense of unease increases greatly throughout the film. The scenery in the movie is nice too, covering everything from universities, to an old rural house or two, to an ancient Vietnamese temple.

But really if the dude had just finished her portrait all of this could be avoided dammit

CopywrightMMXI
Jun 1, 2011

One time a guy stole some downhill skis out of my jeep and I was so mad I punched a mailbox. I'm against crime, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
I recall the Tales From the Crypt movie from the 70s being pretty good. The Cryptkeeper wasn't scary in that one though.

EgillSkallagrimsson
May 6, 2007

CopywrightMMXI posted:

I recall the Tales From the Crypt movie from the 70s being pretty good. The Cryptkeeper wasn't scary in that one though.

Yes, I loved the wishes (monkey's paw?) bit as a kid.

Jigoku
Apr 5, 2009

Morpheus posted:

So, has anyone heard of BXX Haunted? It's an interesting attempt at a sort of 'found footage' horror, where a group of researchers set up cameras in a haunted house and try to contact the supernatural. But instead of giving you a two-hour, edited tape, you're handed the entire set of tapes, nearly three days of footage with something like a dozen cameras set up to record it all.

It's a little strange, in that if you want you can skip right forward to the climax, or watch various scenes play out beforehand, trying not to miss the various conversations/events that occur throughout the house. I thought it's a neat little experiment in horror film-making.

So...this is an interactive Grave Encounters?

Will report back when I get past the intro.

edit: for people with ADD it seems like you can have as many camera feeds as you have ADD to handle.

Jigoku fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Jun 8, 2012

Nemesis Of Moles
Jul 25, 2007

I spent a while trying to watch it yesterday and, while I have to admire it's uniqueness, it ain't exactly easy to follow.

foodfight
Feb 10, 2009

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Innkeepers actually rules, but it is less comedic and much more character-centric than House of the Devil, which stayed tied to one subjectivity throughout.

It's extremely empathic and, like any good ghost story, not actually about the ghosts. It's important to keep in mind that the first half (or so) of the film is an extremely deadpan 'lovely job' comedy based around Sara Paxton's excellent performance. It's not so much horror 'til later in the film - and even then it's more heartbreaking than scary.

In that sense, it's House of the Devil in reverse. Where House of the Devil quietly built up to gonzo 'Evil Dead' exploitation, Innkeepers frontloads the comedy to disarm you.

I totally get what you are saying, but I don't think the movie works. The character stuff is sorta fun but it isn't really developed clearly enough and the scares are, like you said, heartbreaking but not nearly heartbreaking enough. This was the most G rated R movie I have ever seen. I think this film would have benefited from a few more script passes. Watching 5 minutes of behind the scenes it sounded like they secured the location and had to churn out a script fairly quickly to begin shooting. Very disappointed because I was completely on board the first and second acts (ie the slow stuff).

H.P. Shivcraft
Mar 17, 2008

STAY UNRULY, YOU HEARTLESS MONSTERS!
I just watched McKee's The Woman and hoo boy was it unsubtle. I was actually considering using it in an intro class on horror and gender, up until the last 20 minutes went beyond anything I'd be comfortable showing to freshmen. That said I did like it, even though I think it went a bit off the rails.

When the credits rolled and I saw Jack Ketchum had a hand in the script I had a big "Oh that makes sense" moment.

e: \/\/ This was one of those rare instances where I watched/read nothing about the film before seeing it, so all I knew was Lucky McKee directed it and it was about a family finding a feral woman. Honestly the sequel angle makes me like it less, since I think the film is more compelling if this was just A Thing That Happened. It's to the movie's credit that I watched the whole thing without realizing or feeling like I was watching a sequel, anyway.

H.P. Shivcraft fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jun 9, 2012

Wilhelm Scream
Apr 1, 2008

H.P. Shivcraft posted:

I just watched McKee's The Woman and hoo boy was it unsubtle. I was actually considering using it in an intro class on horror and gender, up until the last 20 minutes went beyond anything I'd be comfortable showing to freshmen. That said I did like it, even though I think it went a bit off the rails.

When the credits rolled and I saw Jack Ketchum had a hand in the script I had a big "Oh that makes sense" moment.

Considering it's a sequel to a movie based on one of his books, shouldn't be much of a surprise.

mikeycp
Nov 24, 2010

I've changed a lot since I started hanging with Sonic, but I can't depend on him forever. I know I can do this by myself! Okay, Eggman! Bring it on!
Have any of you guys seen Episode 50? Is it actually worth watching?

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

mikeycp posted:

Have any of you guys seen Episode 50? Is it actually worth watching?

No turn back don't watch it oh god it was so horrible don't do it run away flee.

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Dial A For Awesome
May 23, 2009
Saw The Pact today. It's a pretty effective haunted house movie. I'm a sucker for spooky stuff and the film delivered a suitably creepy experience (in the fact the stranger next to me in the cinema jumped at one point and elbowed me in the arm). The last two minutes minutes did annoy me though: why show the killer's eye staring through the peephole? He's been killed and it's an utterly needless cliche to somehow have him still around for no good reason.

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