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Shageletic posted:Speaking of infuriating articles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B9T5gIXTjw
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Jun 8, 2012 04:40
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| # ? May 28, 2024 10:51 |
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Why don't poor black teens just smoke pot in their parents' spacious backyards and rec rooms like the rest of us, gosh!
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Jun 8, 2012 19:12
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HidingFromGoro posted:If that weren't the case, and he was really interested in getting the most bang for his taxpayer buck in dealing with felons, he'd probably be interested in things which are twice as effective and 1800 times cheaper than prison. I pointed this out to him and he just called me a marxist. I called him out for the name calling and he just said I was a perfect marxist.
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Jun 8, 2012 19:41
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Fire posted:I pointed this out to him and he just called me a marxist. I called him out for the name calling and he just said I was a perfect marxist. Marxist? Easy response poo poo, given that the other two major mass incarcerators are China and the USSR under Stalin, we must bea great group of commies.
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Jun 8, 2012 22:30
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I have an idea. Someone should write a short pamphlet about the prison-industrial complex in simple language that can be understood by anyone. I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler, though focusing on the prison-industrial complex rather than the military-industrial complex. The pamphlet should then be distributed among as many incarcerated inmates as possible.
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Jun 9, 2012 19:56
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Infographics can be really compelling and will spread well. What would be the major points that we want to hit?
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Jun 9, 2012 20:16
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One possibility is a simple chart comparing the rapid acceleration of prison population growth with the rapid acceleration of private prison company profits. A piece of information that I find particularly compelling is the fact that the number of incarcerated Black people in the United States today is larger than the number of enslaved Black people during any point in U.S. history. A lot of people profited from slavery, and we also need to make it clear that there are a lot of people currently profiting from mass-incarceration (of course, many many fewer than the number of people being incarcerated). In addition to spreading knowledge of the prison-industrial complex among inmates, I also think it would be a good idea to encourage inmates not to resent other inmates and to try to foster a sense of solidarity among incarcerated inmates. I feel pretty certain that the private prison companies and the people running the prisons probably want the inmates to hate and resent each other, and I think some sort of anti-racism movement among inmates and some sort of general inmate solidarity movement would be beneficial in the struggle against the prison-industrial complex.
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Jun 9, 2012 22:13
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Not to knock on your statistics (I know they are horrifying and have heard them before.) However is that as a percentage or just pure numbers? I am sure horrible people will want to know to validate their hate for prisoners.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:12
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I think including stuff about lower-cost, safer, more-effective alternatives such as Bastoy-style prisons and that reading program in Texas would be a good move.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:20
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I really think the focus would need to be on the profit, slavery, and racial control angles more than the poor treatment of prisoners. A lot of people think that all prisoners are bad people, and that all bad people deserve to be brutalized. Stuff like blacks and Latinos being incarcerated at much higher rates than whites for drug crimes despite having the same prevalence of drug use across all three races is compelling even if you're a retributive justice type. It's less compelling if you're a racist but I think the idea is to reach more moderates, right? I do agree that there needs to be stuff in there about cheaper and more effective ways to reduce crime but it might be a good idea to just focus on the negatives at first. If this kind of thing gained any traction we could always create follow ups. The real question here is is anyone a graphic designer?
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Jun 10, 2012 17:33
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Is there any data out there on how many prisoners are there for violent crime against petty crime? If memory serves me right, violent criminals are actually a fairly small minority in prisons. But when you put petty criminals in for a few years, they come out violent criminals.
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Jun 10, 2012 18:19
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Looks like less than half according to this site http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004339 Edit: And that's only counting prisons, not jails where things can be just as bad or worse for inmates.
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Jun 10, 2012 19:48
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Is there any data out there on how many prisoners are there for violent crime against petty crime? If memory serves me right, violent criminals are actually a fairly small minority in prisons. But when you put petty criminals in for a few years, they come out violent criminals. About 60% of prisoners are incarcerated due to a non-violent offense (this includes drug use/distribution as well as burglary, theft by taking, etc.). On the federal level, the average sentence for a non-violent offender is longer than for a violent offender. For example, you can get life imprisonment for growing weed, but often a straight up murder/rape will get you 20ish, often with the possibility of parole. Also, not sure if this book has been brought up already, but check out Crime and Public Policy by Wilson & Petersilia. It examines every angle of the subject using well-researched information.
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Jun 10, 2012 21:29
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Fire posted:I pointed this out to him and he just called me a marxist. I called him out for the name calling and he just said I was a perfect marxist. I really, REALLY want to hear your friend explain what he thinks "Marxist" means.
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Jun 11, 2012 02:52
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I've been reading about supermaxes and been kind of shocked to hear it's been consistently ruled humane to lock people in a white room with the lights on and nothing but the furniture for years on end. Are there any resources like those in the OP on these? It seems almost too ridiculous to be true, even though obviously I know it is 
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Jun 11, 2012 18:39
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You know whats so stupid.. It costs 30k per prisoner per year... Most people go to jail over money related issues (they are Poor) So instead of locking them up, we pay people to not be criminals. That is a low middle class wage, more then enough to live on. Of course there are a whole host of issues that come from this that need to be figured out, but quite frankly enough is enough. I guess I have a heart, and a brain...
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Jun 11, 2012 23:23
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PyRosflam posted:You know whats so stupid.. Assuming this is not a troll, that doesn't even begin to make sense. Most poor people are not criminals, therefore it would cost far, far more than the cost of housing prisoners (even assuming the fairly simplistic statement "Most people go to jail over money related issues (they are Poor)" held true). If you simply give people large sums of money rather than locking them up, all you're doing is providing an incentive to commit crimes. There are a lot of problems with the criminal justice system, but it's not that simple.
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Jun 12, 2012 02:08
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Page Downfall posted:I've been reading about supermaxes and been kind of shocked to hear it's been consistently ruled humane to lock people in a white room with the lights on and nothing but the furniture for years on end. Are there any resources like those in the OP on these? It seems almost too ridiculous to be true, even though obviously I know it is I've run across almost no resources on supermax prisons, probably because openly talking about them would shatter the illusion that they're somehow OK.
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Jun 12, 2012 02:21
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Not really a troll, Just something really stupid about the criminal system as it currently stands. We, as a country would rather spend a low middle class salary per person we send to jail, then to spend any money on wealth redistribution, (because that's socialism!) or any real kind of rehabilitation. 2nd, Its absolutely right that poor are disproportionately sent to jail over people with money. In addition minority's (whom commonly earn less then whites) are more often sent to jail and for longer amounts of time. None of the above is new. I just see the insanity for what it is, we've decided to gut any social program we can, just so we can put people in boxes to make others (the private prison system) rich. We may be better off kicking people who are just guilty of being poor (see "its against the law to be homeless") and people who have felony's on to some form of public aid since we've more or less taken away any means for them to get a job. At least then they could do something other then getting stuck back in the revolving door to jail. I'm Just mad at the absolute waste of money that's spent putting people in jail VS the any alternative. From the stupid, direct payments to felony holders since they cant get any jobs at all, to the fairly sane, drug treatment, to the downright smart, stop sending people to jail for drugs / bad luck (so sorry your unemployment ran out and you lost your appt). My point stands, 30k per prisoner per year vs almost any alternative, including downright paying them to be a good citizen, is still a better deal. Unless your a for profit prison, or simply feel anyone who broke the law should hold the scarlet letter for life. (Just ask the bank employee of 30 years who happened to shoplift at 18, then got kicked out of her job when the company Knew her past but only started to care now)
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Jun 12, 2012 02:37
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The problem with your idea is if you make that 30k a year contingent upon a criminal conviction, you'll get people committing crimes to get it...people who otherwise wouldn't...and it ends up costing more. If you just give everyone 30000 dollars, it costs a lot more than locking up a fraction of the population at 30k each. Should money spent on prisons go to programs that reduce the need (real or deliberately manufactured) to send people to prison? Sure. But it is not as simple as you stated it.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:16
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Amarkov posted:I've run across almost no resources on supermax prisons, probably because openly talking about them would shatter the illusion that they're somehow OK. http://solitarywatch.com/faq/
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Jun 12, 2012 05:43
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PyRosflam posted:Not really a troll, From what I can gather you seem to be arguing for a Basic Income system. Is this an accurate summary of your opinion?
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Jun 12, 2012 18:03
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Yes, A basic income system would be an acceptable alternative to a police state. Of course this idea is politically unobtainable for at least the next 20 years. I'd also be happy giving felons a stipend to keep them out of jail. Since our system stigmatizes felons so badly.
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Jun 12, 2012 20:51
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Consider what tends to turn people criminal in the first place. lovely life, being poor, being minority. Rather than giving them a stipend to stay out, give them an education or some kind of training so they can actually start a non-lovely life when they get out. You know, set them up to succeed. The system right now sets ex-cons up to fail.
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Jun 12, 2012 21:11
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I didn't see this this article here, which discusses how trans prisoners have historically been housed with the wrong gender (which of course puts them in a very dangerous situation), and specifically how this will effect CeCe McDonald, who is being imprisoned for defending herself: http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/06/when_it_comes_to_where_cece_mcdonald_will_serve_her_time_the_devil_is_in_the_details.html
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Jun 12, 2012 22:53
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Yes a basic income system would probably be the single best thing to reduce prison populations which, of course, is why it would never happen.
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Jun 13, 2012 00:29
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You guys are forgetting something big. We use prisoners as veritable slave labor, so we make that 30k back in stride. Check it out: http://www.unicor.gov/ . Why send jobs over seas when we have people right here at home working for pennies on the dollar(literally). "When the prisoners work, so does the system!!" Hobohemian fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jun 13, 2012 |
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Jun 13, 2012 06:12
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Hobohemian posted:You guys are forgetting something big. We use prisoners as veritable slave labor, so we make that 30k back in stride. Check it out: http://www.unicor.gov/ . Why send jobs over seas when we have people right here at home working for pennies on the dollar(literally). No we don't. Some middle man makes all the money. The "best" part about a private prison is the state pays you to house them, and then you get to make even more money by exploiting their labor.
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Jun 13, 2012 06:16
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nm posted:No we don't. Some middle man makes all the money. It's almost as if the motivation for high incarceration rates is profit for a select few and rehabilitation is just a thinly veiled excuse to keep free and cheap labor available for exploitation. 
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Jun 13, 2012 06:20
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Hobohemian posted:It's almost as if the motivation for high incarceration rates is profit for a select few and rehabilitation is just a thinly veiled excuse to keep free and cheap labor available for exploitation. quote:Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.  edit: http://www.unicor.gov/shopping/ViewProduct.asp?idproduct=1716&iStore=CTG&idCategory=555
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Jun 13, 2012 06:41
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It really should be a Thing That Is Generally Known that the US continues to be a slave state.
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Jun 13, 2012 17:09
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Orange Devil posted:It really should be a Thing That Is Generally Known that the US continues to be a slave state. In fact, now we practice it in the north again too.
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Jun 14, 2012 06:34
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For those who missed it in Thursday's USA Today (of all places), the story goes a little something like this. There are upwards of 60 people who went to prison in North Carolina whom, the federal government acknowledges, were convicted and sentenced under an erroneous application of the law. Several of them remain in prison. See, it's a federal crime [18 USC 922(g)(1)] to possess or receive a gun in, through or affecting interstate commerce if you have previously been convicted in state court of an offense punishable with more than one year in prison. Federal courts in North Carolina have been interpreting that one-year threshold in terms of the maximum statutory sentence assuming every possible aggravating factor. In other words, a first-time offender facing 3 months for assault under sentencing guidelines may or may not possess a gun under federal law, according to how he might have been sentenced if he had a long criminal record and assaulted a police officer. Last year the 4th Circuit en banc reversed itself on this point: a sentence of more than one year must have been possible based on the facts of the underlying case. Now it's up to those convicted under the law to somehow find out about this (many haven't) and petition for relief. This is where we head off into Wonderland: The federal government is fighting some of those petitions, on the grounds such as these: - The petitioner should have raised the issue earlier, when the precedents were against him. His limitation is up, and he doesn't get an exception because it was the Circuit Court, and not the Supreme Court, that reversed the law. - The petitioner has already received process (under erroneous law) on the facts of the offense, which bars him from claiming factual innocence now. To establish factual innocence, he would have to somehow vacate those state convictions that didn't really provide a basis for the offense. Until then he's only legally innocent, which means he stays in prison.  full story. The federal government's side of this, I suppose, is that they have to be diligent in asserting the case law regardless of the outcome, but that wouldn't be a problem if the law provided a better route for relief.
Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Jun 15, 2012 |
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Jun 15, 2012 06:05
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Reading that, I really get the sense that lawyers and judges work under some kind of blue and orange morality that doesn't make a lick of sense to anyone outside of their community. He's innocent but he stays in jail. If he fights his conviction using the only tools at his disposal or tries to get paroled, he can't assert that he is innocent. Add to all of this all of the tools prosecutors have to lock people up for literally nothing. Like the ever popular "lying to investigators" or using interstate commerce for something.
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Jun 15, 2012 10:14
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It's easier to just acknowlege the fact that the government basically wants to throw people in jail, guilt or innocence be damned. Things start making a lot more sense then.
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Jun 15, 2012 10:21
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Does anyone know when the USSC is going to vote on Juvenile Life Without Parole for the case they heard in November?
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Jun 15, 2012 11:23
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Pillowpants posted:Does anyone know when the USSC is going to vote on Juvenile Life Without Parole for the case they heard in November? The two cases were heard in March. Six of the nine March cases have not been decided yet. There should be decisions on all of the cases from this term by the end of this month.
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Jun 15, 2012 13:17
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Fire posted:Reading that, I really get the sense that lawyers and judges work under some kind of blue and orange morality that doesn't make a lick of sense to anyone outside of their community. He's innocent but he stays in jail. If he fights his conviction using the only tools at his disposal or tries to get paroled, he can't assert that he is innocent. Add to all of this all of the tools prosecutors have to lock people up for literally nothing. Like the ever popular "lying to investigators" or using interstate commerce for something. It has nothing to do with morality. It's the fact that State/Federal Prosecutor's get credit for "wins." A win is ALWAYS when they get someone thrown in jail/prison. There is no case where a prosecutor is trying to prove innocence and no case where a prosecutor would recommend any course of action except jail time, unless jail time was not prescribed as one of the possible punishments. An "ideal" judge must remain impartial to both the facts of the case, and the law as it is written. Guilt and Innocence are not decided by the judge (in most cases) so even if something is hosed up with the system, there isn't a lot a judge can do. So where does that leave the unfortunate individual? Bureaucratic hell. In some cases they can pay a fine, but in many cases the things required of them are ridiculous or even unobtainable. If you are sentenced already there is most likely no path that you can take through the bureaucracy to get justice.
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Jun 15, 2012 20:17
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http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/06/an-american-gulag-descending-into-madness-at-supermax/258323/ BOP justifies this in Orwellian fashion: it discontinues the prisoner's medication, thereby making the now non-medicated prisoner "eligible" for placement in the Control Unit. Then, when this newly eligible prisoner requests medication needed to treat his serious mental illness, he is told that BOP policy prohibits the administration of psychotropic medication to him so he should develop "coping skills" as a substitute for medicine being withheld. Instructing a prison confined in long-term segregation and who has schizophrenaia or bipolar Illness to self-treat this disease with coping skills is like demanding that a diabetic prisoner learn to "cope" without insulin. In some cases, ADX staff turn the simple (although cruel and unusual) refusal to feed a prisoner into a deceptive hoax. ADX prisoners, including those in four point restraints, sometimes are put on a disciplinary "sack lunch" nutrition program in which they are fed not standard prison trays but a paper bag containing a sandwich or two and a piece of fruit. Many mentally ill prisoners at ADX who are placed on sack lunch restriction have received sacks (suitably videotaped) being delivered to their cells. But when they open the bags (off camera) they sometimes are empty. Through this ruse ADX staff produce false video evidence of feeding, raising (if only for a minute) the prisoner's hope for basic nutrition, then smash the often-chained and always hungry prisoner's hopes with a bag of air. ... As a result of this type of abuse, other prisoners in nearby cells and ranges are often subject to the shrieking and suffering of prisoners undergoing such abuse. Jesus wept. What the gently caress is wrong with people. No, wait, there's someone to look after the prisoners after all: Perhaps you are wondering if the prison has an inside "watchdog" official who might be authorized to investigate allegations of misconduct by prison staffers. There is indeed such a person at Supermax, the complaint alleges. Her name is Dianna Krist. Her title is "Special Investigative Agent." But Krist appears to be married to Captain Russell Krist, who is responsible for "all corrections functions" at Supermax. No court in the country would countenance such an obvious conflict of interest -- and federal policy prohibits it. olylifter fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 03:40
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| # ? May 28, 2024 10:51 |
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from that article: quote:For example, the plaintiffs allege that they were threatened by prison officials for their involvement in this case. "If you don't drop this lawsuit they will gently caress you over, trust me on this," one Supermax staffer allegedly told one of the plaintiffs. How exactly could the plaintiffs be hosed over worse?
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Jun 19, 2012 04:33
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