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quote:There's a right turn I've taken a million times over the past 4 years that's very wide and has huge visibility, and I would sometimes get on the gas a little in my B16-swapped CRX through the turn. I never went over the speed limit, and I only did it if there was absolutely no one else around. Being a FWD, the front tires would break free a little and it would make the turn a bit more fun. Well, before leaving work I decided it would be a good idea to turn off the traction control and try something similar in the FR-S. That was my first mistake. I entered the turn at about 20mph, and halfway through it I got on the gas and I honestly can't remember exactly what happened after that. I remember being extremely surprised and then all of a sudden I was careening for a telephone pole, and then bam. I don't even think I hit the brakes. Haha, the FR-S gets its backend out a little quicker than that FWD CRX, huh? Don't experiment with the handling of your brand new car on a road with traffic. The worst thing about that picture/story is that you know it's only the first of many, many to come, and that's a drat shame for such a fine-handling car. edit: added quote for new page Un-l337-Pork fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 12:12
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 05:46 |
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I'm pretty surprised people can't hold a little slide when that's what they're trying to do.
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Jun 16, 2012 14:21
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Duh, people don't know how to drive.
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Jun 16, 2012 14:22
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I've been driving rwd since forever and even I don't really know how to control overly aggressive sliding. I usually just wait for a rainy day and goose it a bit as boost comes on so the back end gets a bit wild and then back off. Drifting, while awesome is not something that I want to experience on a public road. Turning off traction control is the 2012 motoring version of "it's ok, I got this"
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Jun 16, 2012 15:17
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Goddamnit dumbass, this is why they make Autocross courses! loving showing off for his friend and now he is gonna be driving a used civic for the rest of his life.
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Jun 16, 2012 15:30
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If you're going to be a fuckhead in a car you don't understand how to drive (FWD>RWD, among other things), do it without a loving passenger. If you want to risk your own neck then fine be a dumbass, but putting someone else in danger as well is unacceptable.
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Jun 16, 2012 16:21
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Laserface posted:I've been driving rwd since forever and even I don't really know how to control overly aggressive sliding. I usually just wait for a rainy day and goose it a bit as boost comes on so the back end gets a bit wild and then back off. Drifting, while awesome is not something that I want to experience on a public road.  Everyone with a FT86 should stick one of these on their passenger dash.
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Jun 16, 2012 16:24
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What the gently caress is with people turning off traction control on public roads? Obviously, I wouldn't want to see a system you can't disable, but I think there really ought to be an additional traffic offense if you have an accident while traction control is turned off. The system is there for your (and everyone else's) protection while driving on public roads. Besides, most good traction control systems will still let the back get as loose as you'd ever want it to be on a public road (in that it steps out a little and then recovers).
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Jun 16, 2012 16:53
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The traction control has a "sport mode" for exactly this reason, but no, just turn it off. It'll be fine. You got this.
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Jun 16, 2012 17:00
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People have been driving far more powerful RWD cars that never had traction control in them without incident for 50 years, so I think this is more a problem of "This guy is a terrible driver and has no experience in anything bigger than a 120 hp CRX"
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Jun 16, 2012 18:59
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Ether Frenzy posted:People have been driving far more powerful RWD cars that never had traction control in them without incident for 50 years, so I think this is more a problem of "This guy is a terrible driver and has no experience in anything bigger than a 120 hp CRX" I agree that people should be able to do it, but as long as TCS is there to provide that extra margin of safety on public roads, what benefit is there to disabling it? Closed courses are the place to turn off traction control and test the limits of the car.
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Jun 16, 2012 19:17
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To be fair, this guy was too stupid to realize the car would drive differently when you add horsepower/torque and move the drive wheels out back (honestly, isn't this something any kid that had a Playstation and Gran Turismo should have some grasp of?). Not to mention, too stupid to realize he wasn't smart enough to turn off the traction control. Even with the TC on, he'd have wrecked this thing eventually.
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Jun 16, 2012 19:22
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I like how he apologizes for committing such a grievous disservice to his car community. Hopefully the only apology they accept is his self-removal of a pinky.
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Jun 16, 2012 20:01
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Bumming Your Scene posted:I like how he apologizes for committing such a grievous disservice to his car community. Hopefully the only apology they accept is his self-removal of a pinky. Really though, at least he's not blaming it on the car and realizes what he did was a stupid thing. Usually these posts go down like "The dealer put tire shine on my tread!" or "This car is dangerously unstable with TC off!"
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Jun 16, 2012 20:07
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This really is going to be the Tiburon all over again
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Jun 16, 2012 20:10
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PT6A posted:What the gently caress is with people turning off traction control on public roads? Obviously, I wouldn't want to see a system you can't disable, but I think there really ought to be an additional traffic offense if you have an accident while traction control is turned off. The only thing TCS does is immediately reels the power back, which is the best corrective action for a slide, and it only really works because it usually can do it before the driver has a chance to react. However, TCS doesn't stop people from having these accidents, it just makes them less likely. Even with TCS enabled if you hit the brake or cut power completely during a slide the car can seesaw. He most likely wasn't sliding at impact since he hit with the front of the car and also probably panicked and target fixated. Also when I was borrowing the C6 Z06 I went out to lunch and a coworker hit the TCS off button when I started up and said 'let me get that for you' and was disappointed when I turned it back on. I told him there's no loving way I'm driving something that can get wheelspin in 4th gear in the rain off idle without every safety net ever invented on. Muffinpox fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 20:22
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Muffinpox posted:The only thing TCS does is immediately reels the power back, which is the best corrective action for a slide, and it only really works because it usually can do it before the driver has a chance to react. However, TCS doesn't stop people from having these accidents, it just makes them less likely. Even with TCS enabled if you hit the brake or cut power completely during a slide the car can seesaw. Yeah, nothing is magic, but it significantly reduces the chance and severity of a gently caress-up, especially in cars that are designed and tested with the idea that TCS will be available and on in normal conditions. I've had my Mustang's TCS kick in once or twice when I give a little bit of gas around a tight corner. Would I have been able to control the resulting slide without TCS? Probably; I've been driving RWD vehicles since I started driving, even in icy conditions. But maybe not. TCS means that I didn't have to, beyond a very slight amount of countersteering.
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Jun 16, 2012 21:52
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I would like to see if the TCS on the FRS/BRZ/GT-86 is good enough for winter driving when you equip a set of good winter tires on it. My primary experiences have been with AWD and FWD vehicles in the winter.
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Jun 17, 2012 01:12
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:The traction control has a "sport mode" for exactly this reason, but no, just turn it off. It'll be fine. You got this. Does the FRS/BRZ even have a TCS sports mode?
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Jun 17, 2012 02:28
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shodanjr_gr posted:Does the FRS/BRZ even have a TCS sports mode? Yes it does, you have the option to either turn it off completely or to loosen the restrictions so you can drift a bit without losing total control of the car.
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Jun 17, 2012 02:30
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DerDestroyer posted:I would like to see if the TCS on the FRS/BRZ/GT-86 is good enough for winter driving when you equip a set of good winter tires on it. My primary experiences have been with AWD and FWD vehicles in the winter.
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Jun 17, 2012 02:37
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I thought TC also pulsed the brakes on one side to stop the spin. It's more than just a throttle cut.
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Jun 17, 2012 03:34
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Based on my experiences in the Mustang, I will say this in regards to winter driving: if you drive properly, you will have no problem with a RWD car with snow tires, even if you don't throw sandbags in the back. However, the diciest situations, you cannot rely on the TCS to save you, because unless you're a complete moron, they will happen when you're not accelerating. You should be comfortable with countersteering, and giving a little bit of gas to get yourself out of a skid -- an icy culdesac at around 1AM is perfect for acquainting yourself with these skills. If you're driving a MT, I would also advise you to be very, very smooth on downshifts. Until I started driving stick, I didn't realize that a downshift (even at "normal" speed) would cause a spin just as quick acceleration would. To be honest, I'm not sure if I've ever activated my TCS in winter situations, beyond the times I'm already quite sure I'm in a spot of bother. In winter, you should be driving carefully and smoothly enough that your TCS doesn't have to kick in, even in RWD. This applies to summer driving too, I suppose, but you have to recognize that your margin of error is greatly reduced in winter. EDIT: or to put it bluntly, if you can't handle a RWD in snow, you're only a second's bad luck from wrecking any other car you drive in similar circumstances anyway, so either you shouldn't be driving in the winter, or you shouldn't worry about RWD. The clearance would be my main concern if you need to be able to drive in any conditions. PT6A fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Jun 17, 2012 |
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Jun 17, 2012 03:48
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PT6A posted:If you're driving a MT, I would also advise you to be very, very smooth on downshifts. Until I started driving stick, I didn't realize that a downshift (even at "normal" speed) would cause a spin just as quick acceleration would. This only happens if you don't rev-match properly. Despite what some people have said on this forum, there actually are some situations in non-track driving where heel-toe is not only appropriate, but beneficial to safety.
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Jun 17, 2012 04:03
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MiniFoo posted:This only happens if you don't rev-match properly. Despite what some people have said on this forum, there actually are some situations in non-track driving where heel-toe is not only appropriate, but beneficial to safety. Absolutely, but unless you heel-toe every shift as a matter of habit, it's something to be aware of. I double clutch most downshifts, but not all, and it's the circumstances that would lead you to make a clumsy downshift that you need to be most concerned about.
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Jun 17, 2012 04:12
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PT6A posted:Absolutely, but unless you heel-toe every shift as a matter of habit, it's something to be aware of. I double clutch most downshifts, but not all, and it's the circumstances that would lead you to make a clumsy downshift that you need to be most concerned about. Oh well yeah, that's definitely valid, but it's still true that the back end won't slip out on you if the engine's spinning at the right speed when it's reconnected to the driveshaft.
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Jun 17, 2012 04:16
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MiniFoo posted:Oh well yeah, that's definitely valid, but it's still true that the back end won't slip out on you if the engine's spinning at the right speed when it's reconnected to the driveshaft. Definitely, but if everyone drove perfectly life would be much easier. Admittedly, my advice is more pertinent to someone switching from auto to manual as I was when I made that discovery, but I still think it's important to know, especially considering there isn't an electronic nanny to save you from it. Since I've never driven a FWD stickshift, what happens under similar circumstances? I can't say I've even driven a FWD in winter at all, and that's one of the reasons I avoid them: I have no experience with how to deal with a loss of grip in a FWD vehicle.
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Jun 17, 2012 04:36
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PT6A posted:Since I've never driven a FWD stickshift, what happens under similar circumstances? I can't say I've even driven a FWD in winter at all, and that's one of the reasons I avoid them: I have no experience with how to deal with a loss of grip in a FWD vehicle. Basically the same thing that would happen if you were turning significantly and decided to floor it: understeer like crazy (that's why I refer to it as "snowplowing"). It does help that the weight of the engine is over the drivewheels in that sort of scenario, though.
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Jun 17, 2012 04:55
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MiniFoo posted:Basically the same thing that would happen if you were turning significantly and decided to floor it: understeer like crazy (that's why I refer to it as "snowplowing"). It does help that the weight of the engine is over the drivewheels in that sort of scenario, though. Being front heavy doesn't feel like it helps in my mini in the snow
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Jun 17, 2012 07:40
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Apart from the odd transit van I've almost exclusively driven fwd so I'll say having weight over the front wheels only helps up to a point - if you start to understeer & back off the throttle to sharply the lack weight at the rear will bring it round hilariously quick. I know this won't be news to most of you thought 
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Jun 17, 2012 09:32
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PT6A posted:Since I've never driven a FWD stickshift, what happens under similar circumstances? I can't say I've even driven a FWD in winter at all, and that's one of the reasons I avoid them: I have no experience with how to deal with a loss of grip in a FWD vehicle. Get on the gas too hard FWD car and you'll understeer. Back off the throttle and the weight transfer will increase grip on the front wheels and lessen the understeer. Back off too much and the lightened rear end will come around. As Chris Harris shall now demonstrate: http://youtu.be/PBYSl3dD-UQ Some additional FWD pointers: http://youtu.be/4ZN1aP1o_m8
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Jun 17, 2012 10:46
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KozmoNaut posted:Get on the gas too hard FWD car and you'll understeer. Back off the throttle and the weight transfer will increase grip on the front wheels and lessen the understeer. Back off too much and the lightened rear end will come around. Also, a dab of trail braking seems to work well for rotation on some FWD boxes.  My Altima.
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Jun 17, 2012 12:59
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Sockington posted:Also, a dab of trail braking seems to work well for rotation on some FWD boxes. Yes, they touch on that in the videos as well, particularly left foot braking while keeping on the throttle. It's all just a different mindset to driving RWD cars hard.
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Jun 17, 2012 13:13
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PT6A posted:If you're driving a MT, I would also advise you to be very, very smooth on downshifts. Until I started driving stick, I didn't realize that a downshift (even at "normal" speed) would cause a spin just as quick acceleration would. Huh. Would it have to be stupidly bad? I've driven some bigish power RWD cars and never had this happen. Unless I just subconsciously rev match.
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Jun 17, 2012 14:20
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Steve McScene posted:Huh. Would it have to be stupidly bad? In full bore race cars, you set your brake balance relative to how much engine braking you have, you always need more front brake bias than the rear, if the rears lock/skip it'll likely send you into a spin. The better the driver (ie better rev matching), the less front brake bias you need and you can get closer to the grip limits on all four tyres rather than the front 2. Even if it's a big hp car, if you braking and they've got a lot of front brake bias the engine braking won't be strong enough to break the grip. (I've ran this over my head a few times, I can't remember if I've got it backwards though). I knew we used to set brake bias on the SAE car relative to engine braking, gut feelings says more forward bias, but can;t quite remember for sure.
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Jun 17, 2012 15:00
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An enthusiastic young fellow in a RWD car is, at some point, going to end up facing the wrong direction. That is the way of things.KozmoNaut posted:Yes, they touch on that in the videos as well, particularly left foot braking while keeping on the throttle. It's all just a different mindset to driving RWD cars hard. There is a sidenote with FWD oversteer/understeer in that a differential in grip between front and rear, such as having old or crap tyres on the back, can make them far more likely to step out than you might think. Get it wrong enough in the wet, and you can get the rear end to slide out under throttle, which is amusing, but can lead to you finding yourself in a situation where getting out of it is rather tricky. Obviously, this is true in anything, but with a RWD it's just exacerbating the normal behaviour, whereas it's not what you expect a FWD car to do.
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Jun 17, 2012 16:30
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Which reminds me, I need to switch the worn tyres on my Volvo to the rear 
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Jun 17, 2012 16:35
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Snowdens Secret posted:I thought TC also pulsed the brakes on one side to stop the spin. It's more than just a throttle cut. Its usually a graduated response - small wheel slip = throttle cut, bigger wheel slip = brake pulsing
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Jun 18, 2012 04:53
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Edmunds started their long-term test of the FR-S: http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2012/06/2013-scion-fr-s-introduction.html They'll compare it to the BRZ initially, but then dive into tuning the car, which is interesting.
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Jun 18, 2012 07:38
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 05:46 |
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Jay Leno's had a Scion round to look at and drive: http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/scion/2013-scion-fr-s/index.shtml#item=248181
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Jun 18, 2012 17:22
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