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Check out kevberlas' thread over in AI where he is restoring a Ford Thames campervan: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3336130. Lately he is doing heat treating and planishing. It's a very impressive metalworking project and at just 8 pages, not too long of a read.
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Jun 12, 2012 23:43
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Been makin rings. I weld em shut, which is finicky as hell on copper and with a cheapie-cheap brass torch head connected directly to the disposable propane cylinder. I like that man, but if I were to wear something like that (which I wouldn't, not a jewelry guy) I fear it would rip my finger hair something fierce. Nice job, I can't even see the join in the picture.
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Jun 13, 2012 16:55
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It's off to the left, I'm gaming the pictures to hide the joints but they're obvious as hell if you're lookin right at em because the spiral pattern breaks down there. Tried cutting 'em back in with a file but it looked pretty bad so I'm kinda conflicted now on what to do. Like, here's one of the worst welds on account of my awful, awful sputtery flare-y torch. (different ring) welp!!
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Jun 13, 2012 18:21
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Does anyone have a machine shop that they can make some one off mandrels out of tool steel? Accuracy has to be at +/- .0005 5-6 tools will be 1 inch steel rod with various angles bored in to them. The rest will be straight or tapered mandrels that will be tapped in both ends. They will be used to draw tubing over. OR Does anyone know the best way of finding a machine shop to do these type of one-off work? I googled around for shops in my city and it seems like everyone does super complicated high-end aero-space stuff, and wouldn't want to do a small group of one-off jobs. I would do it myself, but the lathe I have at work doesn't have a taper attachment and I am not accurate enough to turn a taper without one.
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Jun 14, 2012 01:52
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Brekelefuw posted:Does anyone have a machine shop that they can make some one off mandrels out of tool steel? A friend of mine does some side job machine shop work when he has time, but if someone came to him asking for tolerances that tight I think he'd turn them away outright. Assuming that's +/- .0005 inches your still asking for accuracy down to 12.7um, if that's .0005mm then that's even more unlikely to get done without big money motivation. His threshold for what hes willing to do for random walk ins and friends is 'can I get it done during my lunch break', you are well outside that threshold. You might find some success just going to a machine shop or six and asking any of the operators you see if they can do the job. You may also want to broaden your search to mechanic shops, body shops, truck repair shops, and tool and die shops (many of which will have fabrication equipment and may be more receptive to a weird one off). Be sure to explain who you are and what your doing; when people are interested in what you are doing they are more likely to help you. Can I ask what exactly these things are for, and why they need to be under such tight tolerances?
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Jun 14, 2012 02:47
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They need to be +/- a half a thousandth of an inch because they are mandrels used to draw tubing that will be used to make trumpet parts. Accuracy is key if you want to make musical instruments with good tone and tuning. I am not asking for free work. I will pay for all this work to be done. I just don't have the skills to do it myself (although I am taking a machinist night class in September that will get me a machinist certificate if I do all 3 courses) I still have to design and do blueprints for the tapered mandrels, so I won't need these done for a few weeks, and I still have to build the drawing bench as well. While I am searching for Canadian suppliers of the Drawing bench parts, I thought I would start the search for a machinist as well.
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Jun 14, 2012 03:30
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I've not been in the business for long, but +/- a half thou is probably attainable for most shops if there's someone good enough in the building. It'll cost, but a competent job shop should be able to do it depending on the complexity of the mandrel. In terms of audio wavelengths, though, is a half thou significant from a tone/frequency standpoint? They used to make that kind of stuff with way less precise tooling and everyone seemed to like it.
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Jun 14, 2012 04:03
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Dongsmith posted:I've not been in the business for long, but +/- a half thou is probably attainable for most shops if there's someone good enough in the building. It'll cost, but a competent job shop should be able to do it depending on the complexity of the mandrel. I repair musical instruments for a living, and our tools are always advertised as accurate to that level, so I am going to follow that standard if at all possible. The tapered mandrels are a straight sided taper. Nothing complex. The other mandrels just need to be turned a diameter X and tapped on both ends. Straight, no taper.
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Jun 14, 2012 04:23
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Dongsmith posted:They used to make that kind of stuff with way less precise tooling and everyone seemed to like it. On that note, where can I find a template for a horn blank? I've got a weird bug up my rear end to try making a natural horn of some sort but I'm not sure how to go about it. I'm pretty sure they look like big fan-shapes, and I'm assuming you roll 'em up on the stake and then weld them, but I was thinking of taking a different tack too- maybe a series of hoops increasing in diameter that I rivet/weld shut, shape on the anvil horn, and then join together all overlapping-like. Probably weigh a ton, but it'd look real neat, like laminar armour.
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Jun 14, 2012 15:38
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Had a completely unrelated thought, hence the egregious doublepost- could I electroplate a steel vessel by hooking up the vessel itself as the cathode, filling it with electrolyte (I don't need anything too fancy or hard to get for this bit I hope, just salt and water?), and hanging a tin anode into the electrolyte without touching the vessel walls? Father's day is creeping up and I kind of feel like pounding out some ridiculous heavy mug-tumbler-ey thing but it won't be foodsafe out of just mild steel.
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Jun 14, 2012 19:22
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Ambrose Burnside posted:On that note, where can I find a template for a horn blank? I've got a weird bug up my rear end to try making a natural horn of some sort but I'm not sure how to go about it. I'm pretty sure they look like big fan-shapes, and I'm assuming you roll 'em up on the stake and then weld them, but I was thinking of taking a different tack too- maybe a series of hoops increasing in diameter that I rivet/weld shut, shape on the anvil horn, and then join together all overlapping-like. Probably weigh a ton, but it'd look real neat, like laminar armour. http://youtu.be/XN50ZNOjH_M This is the very old-fashioned way to make a natural trumpet. They finish it on an accurate mandrel, but I don't think they get the final shape with a lathe. They just burnish the poo poo out of it over the mandrel. You can't rivet it shut because the gaps between the hoops will cause the standing wave to break up. You don't weld the brass when you make the seam of the instrument. You braze it with an alloy that melts slightly lower than brass.
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Jun 14, 2012 21:45
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That was a really neat couple of videos.
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Jun 14, 2012 22:19
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Brekelefuw posted:http://youtu.be/XN50ZNOjH_M This is the very old-fashioned way to make a natural trumpet. They finish it on an accurate mandrel, but I don't think they get the final shape with a lathe. They just burnish the poo poo out of it over the mandrel. Thanks for this, I didn't know about the standing wave thing but it makes sense (I'm obviously not A Music Guy) and I woulda had to learn that it wouldn't work the hard way. e: Yeah okay that was a really helpful video so thank you a whole bunch!! The toothey thing he does right before brazing the sides together is clever, I hadn't thought of that. Only thing I don't have is the special mandrel they use when they're finishing the bell, but I could probably get away without it if I made a much shorter stouter horn, like I was envisioning, that I could work entirely over the anvil horn (like a hunting horn-kinda shape). Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jun 14, 2012 |
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Jun 14, 2012 23:20
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You can free-hand shape the bell to being round. When I repair horns, I use mandrels that are different sizes, but I don't have a single mandrel that fits a horn perfectly because each instrument (brand, model, kind of brass instrument) has different tapers and shapes. This is where knowledge of how to work the brass comes in to play, and what kind of tools to do it with. There are a few things that can't be done freehand, such as the bead at the end of the bell. If you are making a natural trumpet, you don't have to worry about that because those typically have a garland to reinforce the bell flare. Modern brass instrument bells are turned on the lathe and the end of the bell flare is rolled over on itself (called the bead) and a steel wire is put inside the bead and pressure-fit or soldered in. This would be impossible to do freehand. You can't even really repair dented bell beads without MAJOR work that only the best of the best do. I haven't seen the video for a while, but if they didn't show it, you have to hammer the teeth and seam down as flat as possible and then file the ridge away with a file. Check out http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&grp=590&cat=tools and http://www.boehmtools.de/index.php?id=1326 for an idea of the shapes and kinds of tools we use in repair. http://youtu.be/_tXINjSkoQk This is more of a modern way to do it, although he still uses a lot of older techniques. The trumpet he is building is also an older style rotary trumpet, as opposed to the newer (1867ish) piston style trumpet. If you want absolute state of the art, check out this guy. http://youtu.be/jnP6pMiSaVQ His trumpets start around twice the price of the next highest end trumpet ($10000 or so) but everything is made on CNC where possible, braces are hand made and take a full day to properly fit and locate, and they are made of rare stones and custom alloys. He also uses a 2 piece bell design, instead of the traditional 1 piece. This gives the bell two seams, which causes it to resonate differently. His designs are also incredibly sexy for a trumpet. The waiting list for him to build you one is something like 18+ months I have heard. Brekelefuw fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jun 15, 2012 |
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Jun 15, 2012 02:37
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Brekelefuw posted:If you want absolute state of the art, check out this guy. Theres nothing in this video that is state of the art except maybe the 4th axis he appears to be using which Id bet is a Tormach or similar low end machine. That said his fixturing methods look to be made with a good amount of repeatability in mind so for a probably rather low volume operation the quality procdures are there.
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Jun 15, 2012 15:00
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Lord Gaga posted:Theres nothing in this video that is state of the art except maybe the 4th axis he appears to be using which Id bet is a Tormach or similar low end machine. That said his fixturing methods look to be made with a good amount of repeatability in mind so for a probably rather low volume operation the quality procdures are there. For the trumpet industry, there is no one who is more high tech than him. In terms of tooling etc, of course there are many companies who are insane and fancy, but he is pioneering the field of trumpet design and fabrication. They make around 6 horns a month.
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Jun 15, 2012 21:33
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Brekelefuw posted:For the trumpet industry, there is no one who is more high tech than him. edit: wait, 6 per MONTH! my head-math was off by a factor of 10, probably. still, a lot goes into one of those! Dongsmith fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 00:19
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Dongsmith posted:Does each horn cost $100000? 10 people to employ + materials, tooling, machines, etc They start around $10k. Add gold plating, custom case, meteorite finger button inserts (or any other gem stone or dinosaur bone or whatever) and custom cnc art engraving on the valve ballast and all of a sudden you have an even more costly horn.  This is pretty fancy. Probably cost $50k Cost aside, these horns play incredibly well for a lot of people, so for the professional or well to-do amateur, they are well worth it. They also hold their value for resale, or increase in value unlike most standard trumpets.
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Jun 16, 2012 01:08
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Brekelefuw posted:They start around $10k. Add gold plating, custom case, meteorite finger button inserts (or any other gem stone or dinosaur bone or whatever) and custom cnc art engraving on the valve ballast and all of a sudden you have an even more costly horn.
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Jun 16, 2012 01:17
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I've been building a small trailer for my biggest compressor. The box is 2 inch square with a 2mm wall thickness. Tig welding outside has been a bit of a pain, trying to crack on when there's no breeze as a fairly small air movement just blows the shield away.  The bolt is a M20 which I'm using to form the axle for the rear wheels. I did my best to remove the coating with the flap disk before I welded but couldn't get rid of all of it.  I'm quite pleased with the way they've gone for the main part. Any tips are more than welcome.
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Jun 17, 2012 23:48
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Colonel K posted:I've been building a small trailer for my biggest compressor. No tips needed. 
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Jun 19, 2012 00:55
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Sponge! posted:No tips needed. :P Beef up your welds! One more pass should do. Your weld should be convex and yours are looking concave. A fillet weld is only as strong as the effective throat so a concave weld really hurts your strength and makes the wash up on your toes kinda pointless. Other than that They look good!
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Jun 19, 2012 01:08
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My wife passed this on and I immediately knew it was for you guys.some email guy posted:I missed out on the first batch of shipments for the Shapeoko open-soruce CNC mill, and have been checking out their site every day for a while, hoping that more kits would become available.
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Jun 19, 2012 01:28
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Thanks for the comments Sponge and Smokey. You're right, they are definitely concave, next time I'll run some more passes to bring it out. It was nice to be able to get fairly comfortable whilst welding, usually I'm attempting to do it with minimal support which really makes it difficult. Fortunately the weather was pretty good today so I got it finished up , painted and the compressor on.   The paint finish isn't as good as I'd like, but I only had a little bit of 2k white left and needed it done quickly so there is the odd run here and there. I've just won a fly press on ebay that isn't too far away. Hopefully it won't be too much of a pain to manhandle into a trailer.
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Jun 19, 2012 03:41
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Colonel K posted:Thanks for the comments Sponge and Smokey. She's a beauty!
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Jun 19, 2012 04:42
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What kind of prep, primer and paint should I use on steel? I bought a 4ft piece of 2" steel tube to use as the base of my tube drawing machine I am making, and want to protect it from rust and make it look pretty.
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Jun 19, 2012 22:29
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I wanna make a brand. I've been tossing around how to do it- linotype punch cast and used while still hot, chased by hand in a brass block, paying for some CNC nerds or Shapeways to make it- but I think I've settled on a better way I can do myself. Etching. Transfer the image to a block of metal in an ink that also functions as a resist, touch up any thin/bare patches that aren't supposed to be bare, and etch. That said, how deep an etch can I get with ferric chloride or copper chloride in hydrochloric acid? Also, will the etch undercut enough to destroy details or thin sections? I'm under the impression ferric chloride doesn't undercut like nitric acid or w/e other etchants do, for whatever reason, but I don't actually have any experience with it. Also, can I only etch copper with those etchants, or could I do brass too?
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Jun 20, 2012 01:40
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I'd figure I'd just ask here....my mom got a free trampoline but one of the legs needs to be welded. She asked me to do it but I only have a MIG and I'm not confident that a MIG weld would be appropriate for something like that, thoughts?
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Jun 21, 2012 15:26
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Ambrose Burnside posted:I wanna make a brand. I've been tossing around how to do it- linotype punch cast and used while still hot, chased by hand in a brass block, paying for some CNC nerds or Shapeways to make it- but I think I've settled on a better way I can do myself. Etching. Transfer the image to a block of metal in an ink that also functions as a resist, touch up any thin/bare patches that aren't supposed to be bare, and etch. The problem with etching is that it'll creep under your "stencil." You need the relief to be about 1/16" deep, which is hard to do with etching, I hear. Any shallower and the heat from the recessed part will radiate and burn the [wood] where it wasn't supposed to. I can take pics if you need me to. I ended up making mine out of 360 Brass with a dremel and cutting disc and 45 minutes. But mine is a straight line and also I am cheap. I heat it on a flat-top hotplate for about 8 minutes, grab it with some pliers, and go to town.
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Jun 21, 2012 15:59
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Toriori posted:I'd figure I'd just ask here....my mom got a free trampoline but one of the legs needs to be welded. She asked me to do it but I only have a MIG and I'm not confident that a MIG weld would be appropriate for something like that, thoughts? Are the legs made of thin-walled tubing? If so, then the MIG is actually pretty ideal with the quick on/off ability. Weld a spot, move to the other side, weld another spot, go 1/4 around, weld a spot, etc. Keep the heat from building up in one area too much or the whole thing will go all melty-face on you and burn through. If it's galvanized, make sure you grind that poo poo off or wear a really good filter mask, the fumes are poisonous as hell.
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Jun 21, 2012 16:43
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Brekelefuw posted:What kind of prep, primer and paint should I use on steel? This depends a lot on what sort of finish you want and how its going to be used. If its totally functional and you don't need an automotive finish then give it a good degreasing and hit it with some decent rattle can primer and paint. The pic is my old bike gas tank with 4 or 5 light coats of Krylon. Takes spilled gas and weather like a champ and after 5 years still looks exactly like that. 
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Jun 21, 2012 16:59
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Where'd you get the sweet cobra logo? 
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Jun 21, 2012 17:02
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Brekelefuw posted:What kind of prep, primer and paint should I use on steel? wire brush/ wool or shotblast it clean of rust. Panel wipe it down, use an etch primer and then a good 2k top coat. Should be durable and look terrific. I've started using two pack paint for everything where possible.
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Jun 21, 2012 18:55
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Bad Munki posted:Where'd you get the sweet cobra logo? I'm a sign maker. Made it all by me lonesome. My little brother and I shared that bike and painted it together. Standing back after we had reassembled the tins we knew what had to be done.
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Jun 21, 2012 23:13
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Well, I drew up some blueprints for some tools I need made for my trumpet making (see a few posts above.) Hopefully they are legible, and the tool and die shop is willing to do the small job. Anyone know of any good free blueprint programs? I should learn AutoCAD, but it is so overwhelming (and not free,) and the only ones I seem to find on google are for designing houses and gardens.
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Jun 22, 2012 02:22
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I've been hunting barn bikes to restore and do a similar scheme. Now I just want those emblems to put on everything I drive. Nice bike, and nice work there, man.
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Jun 22, 2012 04:54
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Machinist goons, a retired metal shop teacher from IL got bored, put up dozens of hours of his old man shortcuts and tips on youtube, and has an absolutely hypnotic voice. Check out the collected works of Tubal Cain / MrPete222! http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBC69869E8CB708F2&feature=plcp
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Jun 22, 2012 07:49
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iwannabebobdylan posted:The problem with etching is that it'll creep under your "stencil." You need the relief to be about 1/16" deep, which is hard to do with etching, I hear. Any shallower and the heat from the recessed part will radiate and burn the [wood] where it wasn't supposed to. I can take pics if you need me to. Re: the creep bit- that's why I wanted to use ferric chloride and copper, because it supposedly cuts vertically instead of at an angle. I was reading about cutting the channels for doing wire inlays and one of the methods was etching, but it said to use nitric acid or another etch instead of ferric chloride because ferric chloride cut straight and didn't produce an overhang, which meant it wouldn't grip the wire properly. Sounds ideal for my purposes. Again, I don't have any actual experience with this so I might be talking out of my rear end, but that's the scuttlebutt. I was even thinking of starting the depression with an etch and then sinking all the etched areas further with a couple chaser's planishing punches I was gonna make out of 01 drill rod I bought. Either that or doing an initial partial etch and then painting resist onto and over the edges of the etched area, to cover the newly-exposed sides of the etched zone, and then scraping any excess off the sunken portion of the brand to be etched further. e: To be clear, I want to brand business cards on cedar shim-thingies I have that are already pre-cut to business card dimensions, so there's some very detailed lettering that I'm very dubious about etching doing tolerably. Might have to break out the dremel and a lot of patience. A ton of patience. And cursing when I gently caress up and accidentally obliterate the last letter in my URL or whatever. Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jun 22, 2012 |
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Jun 22, 2012 16:58
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I don't know poo poo about the chemistry of etching except that I was under the impression the crystalline structure of the material to be etched was what determined if it'd undercut or not? But that's because I once watched a video on youtube that implied something along the lines so I'll just quote this post in itselfBad Munki posted:I don't know poo poo
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Jun 22, 2012 17:07
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I would do it in parts and then assemble it. You don't want your Large Blank Space to radiate and scorch, also you won't have to scrap the whole thing when you inevitably screw up your url. Also remember to do everything mirrored, unlike my first time. I have some 1.25"x3/8" brass I could send you to experiment, I had to buy a foot of it and only needed 2 inches. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H9L9OK/ref=wms_ohs_product I also don't know poo poo, but I've done this with a dremel before with some success.
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Jun 22, 2012 17:24
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