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True, but the same basic thing happens in bottled beer. You add sugar to the beer at bottling. The yeast produce some amount of CO2. Yes, the gas goes directly into solution, but when more gas is produced than the liquid can hold at the prevailing temperature and pressure, some of it goes into the headspace. If the temperature of the beer increases, gas will come out of solution and pressurize the bottle until a new equilibrium is reached. If the temprature drops, excess pressure in the headspace will push the gas into solution, again until equilibrium is reached. Jo3sh fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 01:01
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Angry Grimace posted:This also assumes that you're attempting to dissolve gas into solution by pressurizing the headspace and letting nature figure it out. Yeast probably produces CO2 in extremely tiny molecules that instantly enter solution. But the thing about saturation is that there is no real way to get any more in past the saturation point. There's a hard wall there. Not counting being tricky and cooling it down to get more in solution, then warming it up and counting it as super saturated because the mass transfer isn't going fast enough the other direction. Ever make sweet iced tea? You know how its just about impossible to get the right amount of sugar in unless you've just brewed it and its still hot? CO2 in beer is like that but in reverse. e. OK informative civil reply out of the way. I need to get it off my chest: The phrase "extremely tiny molecules that instantly enter solution" nearly gave me an aneurysm. zedprime fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 01:07
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I'm no chemist, but I'm pretty sure that gaseous CO2 all looks the same at the molecular level.
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Jun 26, 2012 01:17
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Angry Grimace posted:People absolutely flip out about clarity, but you can achieve commercial quality clarity with sufficient time in a sub 40 degree temperature. I've never used anything other than gelatin and whirlfloc and I'm very satisfied with my results now. I will second this. My American Wheat is I think CLEARER than the local Boulevard Wheat when held up to the light. We didn't do any particular filtering or anything, just some relatively careful siphoning and such. It went into the bottles somewhat cloudy, but coming out of the fridge, it's perfectly clear.
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Jun 26, 2012 02:22
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zedprime posted:Its not really a mystery, its a simple enough phenomenon that you can use one of the hackiest and otherwise useless thermodynamic relationships to figure it out. I'm super lazy with carbonating. Put it on gas in the fridge, wait two weeks, serve. Done. It's a mystery because it's not worth worrying about beyond set it and wait, IMO.
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Jun 26, 2012 03:23
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zedprime posted:Commercial craft brews spend their entire lives in a cooler or refrigerated truck and worst case they spend a week warm on a store shelf so you can flash cool them and you'll still have a nice carbonation Partially true at best. Most distributor trucks aren't refrigerated, and unless you live in a high volume area, you have to plan for worst case scenario. In addition, kegs get the living poo poo beat out of them causing carb leaks and the combination of these things leads to refermentation. Generally, retailers will let our kegs sit warm for up to a month at a time until taps free up. This is why light craft brews should be appreciated - it's drat near impossible to distribute a Cream ale, Pils or Mild with 100% consistency. In fact, we recently had a 4% session stout miraculously survive from Feb till May without cold storage. As it relates to homebrewing, it's as simple as carbing at the temperature that you intend to serve. We have to average all of our retailers to get that number, but since you have full control this is simple. If that means it takes you an extra day or two, it'll be more predictable at the end. When we do pilot batches, we find that at around 40psi at 40F over 36 hours gives you around 2.2 volumes. If you take a decent guess you can get it dialed in based on temperature. An additional .2-4 volumes as you approach 30, and less that much as you approach 50. It isn't rocket science. Try that method and adjust to what feels right. The more you think about it, the more you fiddle and worry.
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Jun 26, 2012 04:13
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The question of clarity was brought up. Look for Biofine Clear A3. 2 days in our brite at 40F gives brilliant clarity. Sure there are other ways to do it (fish guts, time, etc) but this is basically just a bit of salt water that gives consistent results. Just don't use too much or you'll have a lossy batch due to something called "fluffy bottoms". Maybe 15ml for a 5 gal batch? Add to keg before carbing and put some gas through the liquid tube first to agitate it a bit. Most importantly maybe, is that it is a vegan solution and completely natural (read: simple). No worries about shellfish allergies or rotten fish here.
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Jun 26, 2012 04:23
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I just did a blind tasting between my Spotted Cow clone and the real deal. Mine is darker (more of an amber color) and a lot hazier but has much better head retention. Taste-wise, they're pretty close. I think mine has a little bit more adjunct sweetness than the base beer, but they're about 95% similar. I guess this is one of those moments in the hobby where you get reassured that maybe you're doing something right  edit: Recipe, for those curious: code:crazyfish fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 04:29
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The great carb stone experiment was basically a failure. I was somewhat interested in the concept so I hooked one up and let it fly after boiling the stone for ~20 minutes. The problem is that the stone at carbonation pore size is so tiny that it clogs from apparently anything at all, so it ends up not working at all. I had the thing running for hours and didn't get an appreciable touch of carbonation. I pulled the stone and shook the thing for 3 minutes and had some reasonable level of carbonation. I suppose pro breweries have some other way to keep the pores open, but for an average joe, it doesn't seem to be worth it over the tried and true set and forget or crank and shake methods.
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Jun 26, 2012 09:49
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Angry Grimace posted:I suppose pro breweries have some other way to keep the pores open, but for an average joe, it doesn't seem to be worth it over the tried and true set and forget or crank and shake methods. No real trick - probably has more to do with using conicals and leaving 99% of the crap in the fermenter after a 4 day cold crash (so equipment then). I guess if you were REALLY careful about siphoning out of a carboy after letting it sit cold for several days, it would help. Problem is, as soon as you move that carboy, no matter how careful you are, you'll resuspend some stuff. I guess it also depends on where the carb stone is. With a corney you probably can't get it in there as low as you'd want to. If you're looking for super fast carbonation, "crank and shake" will still probably be better anyway. Bleed and feed with a stone can turn into a spring break foam party really easily.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:44
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Angry Grimace posted:The great carb stone experiment was basically a failure. I was somewhat interested in the concept so I hooked one up and let it fly after boiling the stone for ~20 minutes. The problem is that the stone at carbonation pore size is so tiny that it clogs from apparently anything at all, so it ends up not working at all. I had the thing running for hours and didn't get an appreciable touch of carbonation. I pulled the stone and shook the thing for 3 minutes and had some reasonable level of carbonation. Stone use is kinda tricky. Did you figure out your stone's wet pressure and account for the liquid pressure on top of the stone? Generally speaking, your stone should be set at a higher pressure than the one listed on the top of the chart, which is actually the pressure at which total saturation has been achieved. When using a stone you have to add the wet pressure (which is the minimum psi you need to produce a thin sheet of small bubbles from your stone, generally 2-5psi), the liquid head pressure (this will probably be negligible with your batch size), and finally the saturation pressure from the chart to get the total pressure your stone should be set to. After that its just a matter of waiting for the head space pressure of your carbonating vessel to reach the saturation point, along with a few different tricks and tweaks that vary from brewer to brewer. After that, the only reliable way to actually measure your volumes is with one of these bad boys. I say crank and shake all the way. Most breweries I've poked around in seem to store their stones in an acid solution between uses to keep them clean, though I'm not sure exactly what. Probably peracetic.
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Jun 26, 2012 15:39
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Fyodorovich posted:I say crank and shake all the way. I'm in the hook-it-up-and-leave-it camp, myself.
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Jun 26, 2012 15:59
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Jo3sh posted:I'm in the hook-it-up-and-leave-it camp, myself. That's probably better, especially if you can carb cold.
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Jun 26, 2012 16:07
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Fyodorovich posted:carb cold. This is key. Typically, I cold crash for a day or two after I judge the ferment to be complete, so the beer is cold as I rack it to kegs. Then, as soon as it's buttoned up, I move it right to the serving fridge and put the gas on.
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Jun 26, 2012 16:22
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Welp, cracked opens some of the American Wheat from NB last night. It wasn't bad. Kinda hoppy and bitter, but almost with more of a sharpness. Kinda malty I guess? A little bit nonspecifically fruity in the finish. Not bad, not bad.
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Jun 26, 2012 20:42
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Can I repitch some yeast after lagering to clean up diacetyl? My Oktoberfest is kind of a butter bomb and I can tell it's delicious under all that butter. Will the yeast clean up the diacetyl after secondary or am I stuck with malty popcorn water?
internet celebrity fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 20:56
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internet celebrity posted:Can I repitch some yeast after lagering to clean up diacetyl? My Oktoberfest is kind of a butter bomb and I can tell it's delicious under all that butter. Will the yeast clean up the diacetyl after secondary or am I stuck with malty popcorn water? My understanding is that the yeast aren't really going to be active (and thus in a diacetyl-eating mood) unless there's something fermentable around, which is why whenever I see people ask this quesiton the answer usually involves krausening the beer. I'm just parroting various Home Brew forums though.
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Jun 26, 2012 21:08
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Angry Grimace posted:Not an expert on lager brewing yet, but I'm assuming you mean after you already did a diacetyl rest after fermentation and then you lagered it for a month or two? If that's the case, couldn't you make a small starter wort and add it to the existing beer to perk the yeast up again?
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Jun 26, 2012 21:13
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crazyfish posted:If that's the case, couldn't you make a small starter wort and add it to the existing beer to perk the yeast up again? That's basically what krausening is - adding fermenting wort to finished beer; it's also used as a way to condition "green" beer. But my understanding from talking to a few people is that you can't turn a butter bomb into anything but a slightly less of a butter bomb in any case. My understanding of yeast (and I haven't read Chris White's book) is that they will clean up diacetyl to some degree, but it's not like they consume it like sugar. BYO suggests krausening with about 10% of the finished beer volume. quote:"First, the addition of fresh, active yeast into just-fermented beer helps “clean the beer up.” Diacetyl, acetaldehyde and perhaps other fermentation by-products associated with green beer flavors are quickly taken up by the new yeast." I will reiterate I have no personal experience at all with lagers or krausening. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 21:24
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Angry Grimace posted:Not an expert on lager brewing yet, but I'm assuming you mean after you already did a diacetyl rest after fermentation and then you lagered it for a month or two? I had it in primary for 2 weeks and gave it a 3 day diacetyl rest at 68 degrees. Racked it and lagered for 5 weeks at 35ish. Apparently the yeast strain I used has very high diacetyl production (Wyeast Bohemian Lager). This is just bumming me out because this is the most work I've ever put into a beer.
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Jun 26, 2012 21:52
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internet celebrity posted:I had it in primary for 2 weeks and gave it a 3 day diacetyl rest at 68 degrees. Racked it and lagered for 5 weeks at 35ish. Apparently the yeast strain I used has very high diacetyl production (Wyeast Bohemian Lager). This is just bumming me out because this is the most work I've ever put into a beer. If the alternative is a beer that tastes like poo poo, I would personally attempt to krausening it by fermenting up 1/2 or 3/4 of a gallon in a jug or growler and pouring it in at high krausen. Worst case scenario you just have more beer. At that point, tell people its Harry Potter themed beer 
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Jun 26, 2012 22:00
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Jacobey000 posted:If you have a nice brewery nearby talk to them about getting your group by shipped to their place. Back to this discussion about buying grain in bulk. I went to a small local brewery with homebrew sympathies and they had cards out from a place called BrewPS. According to the brewery staff, BrewPS ships to the brewery and homebrewers pick up from there. While I do not see full sacks on brewps.com, I've emailed them to ask if I am understanding the process correctly and what all this might cost. I'll let you all know what comes of all of this. In the mean time, has anyone here done business with these guys? EDIT for update: Just heard back. Prices are not good, but at least they include shipping. It's still worth it for me to drive to morebeer in Riverside to buy malt. Jo3sh fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 22:14
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For those that have converted a mini-fridge for fermenting in... did you just use some generic 4.5ish cu ft guy? Something like Haier 4.5cu ft? I really need to do this since my new apt is an attic and I CANNOT control any temperatures...unless I wanted a nice constant HELLA HOT temperature haha.
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Jun 26, 2012 22:16
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Angry Grimace posted:If the alternative is a beer that tastes like poo poo, I would personally attempt to krausening it by fermenting up 1/2 or 3/4 of a gallon in a jug or growler and pouring it in at high krausen. Worst case scenario you just have more beer. At that point, tell people its Harry Potter themed beer So basically make up a giant starter and pour it all in at high krausen?
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Jun 26, 2012 22:17
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ChiTownEddie posted:For those that have converted a mini-fridge for fermenting in... did you just use some generic 4.5ish cu ft guy? I think it all depends on how much space the compressor is going to take up. My ferm fridge is 4cu ft and I can just get a bucket inside after I took off the guts in the door and scraped out a bit of the foam. Could always lug a carboy with you to Home Depot to test it out. You'll also want to take note of the 'freezer' design, if its too low you might have to worry about your airlock freezing. I just carefully bent mine down though and it seems to work fine. Sirotan fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 22:22
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ChiTownEddie posted:For those that have converted a mini-fridge for fermenting in... did you just use some generic 4.5ish cu ft guy?
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Jun 26, 2012 22:44
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internet celebrity posted:So basically make up a giant starter and pour it all in at high krausen? http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/41-lagering/970-kraeusening-techniques ChiTownEddie posted:For those that have converted a mini-fridge for fermenting in... did you just use some generic 4.5ish cu ft guy? I have the 7.1 cu. ft. Haier that fits three/four Cornies plus a 5 lb. tank and/or multiple fermenters for $179 at Costco. Sam's Club has a similar model.
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Jun 26, 2012 22:46
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So life happened and I haven't been able to post my process of making Belgian Candi Sugar until now. So I present: Making Belgian Candi Sugar with Zymurgy and his cat!What is Belgian Candi Sugar? Simply Belgian Candi Sugar is an inverted sugar consisting of glucose of fructose. Slightly more complicated, Belgian Candy Sugar allows the yeast to skip a step in processing sugar and promotes a healthy fermentation. Normally yeast is exposed to a mixture that contains sucrose and must take the extra time to break down the sucrose into glucose and fructose. Belgian sugar is used primarily in brewing Belgian style beers like Tripel and Dubbel. Duh! However you are not limited to using the sugar in those styles. Belgian sugar can be used to prime beer for bottling and for when the brewer wishes to boost the gravity without adding body. Why should I make Belgian Candi Sugar? Because its way cheaper than buying it from your LHBS and easy to make. At my LHBS 1 pound of candi sugar goes for 5 dollars. I can make 2 pounds of it for a fraction of the cost. In buying Belgian candi you are usually stuck with either clear, amber, or dark colors and sometimes I want a dark amber dammit. All in all making the Candi is very simple and you will need very little to do so. Plus, we got into this beer making hobby to make stuff ourselves so why not this? I don't know anything about candy! Well lets get some knowledge going. In candy making depending on what you desire out of the finished product you will need to heat the mixture to specific temperatures.These temperatures and their properties can be found here. I'm ready to make some candy! From start to clean up should take about 45 minutes to an hour, with one exception that I will address later. I didn't take very many photos but I think I can explain the process well with the pictures I have. What you will need: 2 pounds Table sugar 1/4 Tsp Food grade acid(Cream of Tartar or Lemon Juice) Water A thermometer capable of reading up to 300°F. A vessel in which to put your Candi in to cool  Step 1: Dissolve the sugar in water and add heat. I find that 2 pounds of sugar dissolves nicely in 1 cup of water. The amount of water is unimportant because it will be boiled off later on. If you use more water to dissolve the sugar then you are just making the process take longer.  Step 2: Add acid to the solution. What the acid does is invert the sugar. Acid and heat will split the table sugar into its two basic sugars glucose and fructose so that the yeast doesn't have to spend its own free time doing it. If you are using lemon juice you will need 1 tsp. Adding the acid can be done at just about any point before step 4.  Step 3: Get some extra water. No specific amount really. Just do it.  Step 4: Heat the mixture to 260° and 275°F. The mixture must remain at this temperature range for 20 minutes in order for the solution to fully invert. This is going to be the most hands on step throughout the process because as time goes on and the water boils off the temperature will rise dramatically. This is where the water from Step 3 comes in handy. Add a little bit of water at a time to keep the mixture at the right temperature. Remember when I said that there would be an exception on how long this process will take? This is it. If you want to make an Amber or any dark candi sugar with a more complex color and taste you will need to keep the mixture at this temperature for much longer. An amber color wont be achieved for about an hour. One more thing to note, is that the finished color will be slightly darker then the boiling mixture. Step 5: Bring the mixture to 300°F and transfer to a vessel to cool. Once at the final temperature the mixture will become solid once cooled. That is pretty much all that is involved. I usually throw the pan in the refrigerator over night and smash it with a hammer in the morning.  Where's your cat? I was promised a cat! My cat's notes were of no help as he got into the nip and was sleeping it off on the barbecue. I'm not reading this. This is a pretty good video on how to make Belgian Candi Sugar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2m6i_VSRbI
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Jun 26, 2012 23:04
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Cat looks high as hell 
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Jun 26, 2012 23:27
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Nice guide (saq is totally going to have some words about it).
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Jun 26, 2012 23:57
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Just two things because its one of the most tired arguements that I totally hate. 1: inverting white sugar to make clear "candi sugar" is totally pointless. Just add white sugar (beet if you want to be really anal) to the beginning of the boil and let the boil and the yeast do the work for you 2: You can't make dark candi syrup like the pros do at home on the stove, its not anywhere close
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Jun 27, 2012 00:45
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Don't the imported syrups also use date sugar?
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Jun 27, 2012 00:58
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rage-saq posted:Just two things because its one of the most tired arguements that I totally hate.
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Jun 27, 2012 01:03
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zedprime posted:Did you ever try that add yeast nutrient to promote maillard browning method that was floating around this thread a couple years ago? It was some blog post by someone else suitably annoyed by people calling caramel candi sugar. Yes, as per previous post its not even close to the same product because its not even close to the same way its made by these companies.
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Jun 27, 2012 01:05
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rage-saq posted:Yes, as per previous post its not even close to the same product because its not even close to the same way its made by these companies. I feel like someone has had the same exact conversation with you in this thread but I have forgotten what makes the process special.
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Jun 27, 2012 01:14
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zedprime posted:If its not caramelization and its not maillard, how are they turning sugar brown? I've always heard that Candi Syrup is just a mystery since no one who makes it gives out the process. It's supposedly just boiling and cooling.
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Jun 27, 2012 02:45
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Fyodorovich posted:Most breweries I've poked around in seem to store their stones in an acid solution between uses to keep them clean, though I'm not sure exactly what. Probably peracetic. Five Star acid cleaner #5. Stuff is magic. I don't know if they make it in homebrew-friendly sizes.
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Jun 27, 2012 03:11
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Well, I boiled up 2 liters of starter wort, hopped it to match the IBUs of my beer, and pitched some dry lager yeast. I'll dump it in when I hit high krausen and we'll see what happens.
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Jun 27, 2012 03:17
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A situation has arisen: 1) I have an assload of hops in the freezer and it's getting on my wife's nerves. 2) Have guests coming to stay with me in 10 days and I kinda want to brew a beer for them. Planned to get on this earlier but real life got in the way. Any comments on this Special Bitter recipe as a solution to both problems? My concerns are if it will be too hoppy, and whether it's low enough ABV to taste decent in 10 days. It's 5oz total in a 1.044 beer but the hops are only 3.9%AA and kinda old to boot. Malt bill ripped directly from Brewing Classic Styles, retarded hop bill is my doing. I keg, so carbonating time is not an issue. code:Mud Shark posted:Five Star acid cleaner #5. Stuff is magic. I don't know if they make it in homebrew-friendly sizes. Star San works well in a pinch for acidic cleaning needs, like getting black poo poo off your copper chiller.
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Jun 27, 2012 04:15
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Love the cat. My cat isn't susceptible to nip so ends up helping every time before wandering off: I've caramelized sugar on the stove a few times. If it's not a real candi sugar, can I assume that there is a benefit to the inversion process that occurs anyway? As in, it might not be the right exact color, but it's still inverted making it easier for yeast, right?
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Jun 27, 2012 08:47
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