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n3rdal3rt posted:Question for the Judo crowd (or any throwers for that matter). What is the advantage of using Uchi Mata vs Harai Goshi ? I would think that if you're positioning in the same way it would be better to trap both legs instead of just one. Is the Uchi Mata really just for if uke steps really far out with the front leg? Please forgive my ignorance. Maybe some of the higher belts will have more insight, but for me (orange belt) the uchi mata has a faster setup since I don't need to slide my hip across like harai goshi. Also, it's safer for me not to get countered since I don't have to get in as close. I setup my uchi mata if uke is giving me the stiff arm - I circle outside and kick step into it. I don't set it up from a really far out step - For that I automatically try for a kouchi gari or osoto gari. Maybe I'll see how the uchi mata works off that. Bangkero fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jun 28, 2012 |
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Jun 28, 2012 16:06
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n3rdal3rt posted:Question for the Judo crowd (or any throwers for that matter). What is the advantage of using Uchi Mata https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93a4H5dEis vs Harai Goshi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gzk4M3OA0U? I would think that if you're positioning in the same way it would be better to trap both legs instead of just one. Is the Uchi Mata really just for if uke steps really far out with the front leg? Please forgive my ignorance. Nage No Kata can be useful for understanding how different these techniques are. Harai Goshi is part of the second set (Koshi Waza) and starts at 1:57. Uchi Mata is part of the third set (Ashi Waza) and starts at 3:50. As implied by these categories, Harai Goshi is a hip throw, and Uchi Mata is a foot sweep. Harai Goshi is a linear technique that is generally used against an opponent who is pushing into you. The kuzushi is gained from an upward pull by your arms and a pop of the hips. The reap is an afterthought and doesn't come into play until well after you have kuzushi. Uchi Mata is a circular technique and is used against someone who is following your own footwork. While the arm pull is also important in Uchi Mata to prevent your opponent from countering, you accomplish the throw itself by essentially making your opponent do the splits with one foot on the ground. The reap is how you gain kuzushi and is central to the technique.
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Jun 28, 2012 16:20
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/\ read that instead, Thoguh explained it better than me /\n3rdal3rt posted:Question for the Judo crowd (or any throwers for that matter). What is the advantage of using Uchi Mata https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93a4H5dEis vs Harai Goshi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gzk4M3OA0U? I would think that if you're positioning in the same way it would be better to trap both legs instead of just one. Is the Uchi Mata really just for if uke steps really far out with the front leg? Please forgive my ignorance. Look for Hane Goshi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5IKAskC8Do)and be even more confused! The trio (hane goshi, uchi mata and harai goshi) all seem very similar but they don't serve the exact same purpose. I'll tell you how I use them as a blue belt, but I'm sure some people with more knowledge than me will be able to help a lot more and tell me I'm wrong! I use harai goshi when uke's leg are closer together and when I have forward kuzushi. If uke's stance is wide, you're not going to do an harai goshi. I use uchi mata when uke's stance is wide. I tend to use the outside leg version more than the inside leg because I have found a nice entry and combo to it from a two on one grip. I also prefer uchi mata to harai goshi when my oponent is my size and smaller while I'll have a much easier time with harai goshi on a taller oponent. I also love having my legs in betweens uke's leg because it allows me to chain it to other movement I really like like kouchi gari and a suicide throw I don't remember the name of. I also like to use more of a circular movement with my uchi mata while harai goshi is more for someone coming straight at you. Hane goshi is a different animal and while it's one of my better throws in uchi komi, I really suck at using it in randori so I won't say much about it. KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jun 28, 2012 |
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Jun 28, 2012 16:21
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When you are doing static uchikomis Harai Goshi and Uchimata seem very similar. It is only when you start using them in a dynamic situation that the differences become apparent. Somebody pushing you? Use Harai Goshi. Have a controlling grip and dragging somebody across the tatami? Use Uchi Mata.
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Jun 28, 2012 16:33
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Thanks guys. We've drilled those but I've not been able to hit them in randori. I normally try for more trips and sweeps to get my takedowns plus most of the guys at my dojo are bigger and more experienced then me so scoring a throw is tough for me.
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Jun 28, 2012 18:49
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You guys are all wasting your time with this crap. This is the real poo poo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XClkbLHeevs&feature=player_embedded The ultimate double threat combo 100% perfect self defense program!
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Jun 28, 2012 23:18
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That reminds me, years ago I stumbled across an actual "Office Self-Defense" commercial/video on Youtube. I am sure it was 100% legit, in that it wasn't created as a joke anyway, but I can NOT for the life of me find it anymore. It was a fat dude sitting at a fake desk with blow-up furniture and he would get attacked by a guy and then throw this fake furniture around while yelling. [edit] I just searched for it again and it's not one of those Spetznatz ones or anything, it was a super lame version starring one of those "REAL Self Defense" guys. Still can't find it. TollTheHounds fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 00:19
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Earned my yellow belt in Aikido. On one hand, it's not a big deal. Just shows basic understanding of the few strikes in aikido, and how to safely roll / be thrown. On the other hand, I feel good that I'm making some progress. The next level in this school is very basic maneuvers with a partner; and should take several months. I've been going 4 nights a week; not only doing the classes (which last 90 minutes to 2 hours), I've also been staying after and doing more work with other students. A lot of the younger students (teenagers) really like UFC, so they're always doing grappling and wrestling. I'm sure it's not as educational as being properly instructed, but I always learn something, and it's very satisfying to get a pin or submission against someone who's been doing it a lot longer, even if they aren't old enough to drive yet.
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Jun 29, 2012 04:47
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Kali11324 posted:You guys are all wasting your time with this crap. This is the real poo poo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XClkbLHeevs&feature=player_embedded More like http://video.adultswim.com/tim-and-eric-awesome-show-great-job/kill-em-with-kindness.html
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Jun 29, 2012 11:00
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TollTheHounds posted:That reminds me, years ago I stumbled across an actual "Office Self-Defense" commercial/video on Youtube. I am sure it was 100% legit, in that it wasn't created as a joke anyway, but I can NOT for the life of me find it anymore.
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Jun 29, 2012 12:04
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I remember back in my ymca tkd days we did an extra class on self defense from sitting in a chair. It was more oriented towards if you're sitting outside or at restaurant/bar than crazy office attacks. It's pretty goofy but I would imagine someone somewhere has gotten use out of it.
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Jun 29, 2012 13:44
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Pagan posted:Earned my yellow belt in Aikido. On one hand, it's not a big deal. Just shows basic understanding of the few strikes in aikido, and how to safely roll / be thrown. On the other hand, I feel good that I'm making some progress. Do you know what style of Aikido your school teaches? Mostly curious how ranking/progression works in other styles. I do Tomiki Aikido and our yellow belt test basically consists of these 17 techniques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra6m6WxAOZA but from static instead of from a strike. After we get our yellow belt we start working on the same 17 techniques from a punch right and left handed. We don't actually practice striking from what I can tell which does make working off a punch awkward sometimes because we have at least one person that doesn't know how to throw a punch, lol.
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Jun 29, 2012 13:45
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That's my top problem and why I quit Aikido. they don't teach striking yet the training is based off of a guy trying to hit you. I guess that worked when Aikido started because everyone already knew how to punch and kick walking in the door, but now it just leaves people out to dry because you can't improve your defense without skilled offense. There is also the fact that a good striker is a far different beast then a dude winging haymakers, but most of the instructors couldn't handle a jab cross. Tellingly,I think, The only guy who could was also a judo bb and would use the Aikido movement parry stuff to get inside and the judo to actually throw.
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Jun 29, 2012 15:25
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n3rdal3rt posted:Do you know what style of Aikido your school teaches? Mostly curious how ranking/progression works in other styles. I do Tomiki Aikido and our yellow belt test basically consists of these 17 techniques https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra6m6WxAOZA but from static instead of from a strike. After we get our yellow belt we start working on the same 17 techniques from a punch right and left handed. We don't actually practice striking from what I can tell which does make working off a punch awkward sometimes because we have at least one person that doesn't know how to throw a punch, lol. I'm not meaning to disrespect (but I am), why are these people falling over from being lightly pushed
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Jun 29, 2012 15:54
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We have a couple guys who are very good strikers but mostly what I get out of the training is body movement, keeping things centered and how to leverage balance breaks. I try to incorporate the ideas in to my jujitsu, usually to no avail, but I'm still pretty green to both worlds. I feel like Aikido has a steeper learning curve then jujitsu but I can see how it could be effectively used at higher levels. As far as a jab/cross combo counter goes I'm guessing it would start by moving to the side that the jab came from (the dead side) so that the attacker would have to come all the way across their body to land the cross. The goal being to break their balance as quickly as possible to stop additional attacks ideally when you enter from the first strike. I'm no expert though nor do I expect I could effectively use Aikido against a good jab/cross combo at this point. Maybe someday 
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Jun 29, 2012 16:04
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niethan posted:I'm not meaning to disrespect (but I am), why are these people falling over from being lightly pushed Well they are demonstrating the technique so not a lot of resistance there (just like any technique demonstration in any style) but once you're off balance it doesn't take much to make you fall down. Same concept that Judo/Jujitsu uses on sweeps and what not. Also, a hand in your face tends to lead you in certain directions. Body goes where the head goes. n3rdal3rt fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 16:08
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Do you happen to have a link to a video that demonstrates this with more resistance?
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Jun 29, 2012 16:13
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niethan posted:I'm not meaning to disrespect (but I am), why are these people falling over from being lightly pushed I think what's more important is this link from the related videos. 3 guys "attacking" one female black belt.
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Jun 29, 2012 16:14
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edit: nevermind
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Jun 29, 2012 16:14
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niethan posted:Do you happen to have a link to a video that demonstrates this with more resistance? I will do my best to find something. I've seen it in class and the police office in our class claims to have used it when on duty in the past. I have personally tried to restrain a couple of our black belts which didn't end well for me, lol.
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Jun 29, 2012 16:28
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niethan posted:Do you happen to have a link to a video that demonstrates this with more resistance? i'm sure there are videos of fearsome aikidoman manhandling a guy that's kickboxing with 2 months experience
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Jun 29, 2012 16:34
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n3rdal3rt posted:I will do my best to find something. Not to be harsh, but most here think aikido is sort of a silly, ineffective martial art unless you're fighting someone who has no idea whatsoever as to what they're doing.
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Jun 29, 2012 16:37
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The thing that gets me about Akido is that any art the does a lot of joint locks is going to require beginners to be very compliant and have lots of soft falls & exaggerated techniques as people learn how to become comfortable with getting their joints manipulated. You also don't want people jerking on wrists, shoulders, and elbows while they are still learning how to control their own movements. I totally understand that. However, Akido never moves past this point. Check in with Akido people 10 years after starting and they are still dancing and falling over for slight gusts of wind. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 16:43
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Fontoyn posted:Not to be harsh, but most here think aikido is sort of a silly, ineffective martial art unless you're fighting someone who has no idea whatsoever as to what they're doing. You mistyped "fighting someone who is totally compliant and has practice falling for Akido techniques"
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Jun 29, 2012 16:49
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While being mindful of Rule 1 in the OP, I think the problem with Aikido is definitely its training method. The throws and joint manipulations found in that art are solid, from a technique standpoint, but students aren't trained on how to reliably use them. They just aren't used to aggressive attackers, especially aggressive attackers who aren't going to throw the type of strikes that the Aikido person is used to. There are some videos on youtube with an "Aikido" person doing well in a fight, and almost invariably the fight looks more like your typical MMA fight - the Aikido person does the same things that any other trained MMA person would do, with perhaps better throwing or better joint manipulation. You see the same takedowns that any grappler might use, you see the guard, you see side mount, you see boxing defense like parrying, slipping, catching. You never ever see flowery, beautiful looking Aikido being used in a contested fight (whether sparring or "on the street"). One of my past instructors, who knows a ton of wrist locks and throws in addition to typical MMA things, used to say the complicated throws and joint manipulation are fantastic once you have closed the gap and softened your opponent up. Once you've gotten into standing grappling range, and your opponent is dazed/slowed because you already elbowed him in the face on the way in, then you can pull of something pretty because then you are essentially working with a large, compliant bodybag - which, now that I think about it, is the kind of person that most Aikido students are used to working with in their training. They just don't know how to get someone to act that way in a fight. entris fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 16:54
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Wasn't Aikido meant as a practice for older martial artists who had lots of experience with jujutsu, karate and so on? If that was the case, then going right into Aikido would be like trying to do financial modeling before you knew algebra. e:^^^ The thing we always say at our gym is that grappling was invented the first time there was one steak and two cavemen. The stuff that works is always going to resemble other stuff that works, no matter what you call it.
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Jun 29, 2012 17:02
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Jun 29, 2012 17:30
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The story is that ueshiba would only take students at black belt or higher. That's actually more of a middle rank in Japan as opposed to our idea of bb as Master level. but ya,I think a lot of Aikido assumes familiarity with fighting before you get in the door. However there is also the fact that Aikido changed along with ueshiba as he aged. a lot of modern aikido is modeled after older ueshiba, since that's when more students found the style and it's simply the most recent experience, rather than early Aikido that may have been more physical and practical.
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Jun 29, 2012 17:32
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Xguard86 posted:The story is that ueshiba would only take students at black belt or higher. That's actually more of a middle rank in Japan as opposed to our idea of bb as Master level. but ya,I think a lot of Aikido assumes familiarity with fighting before you get in the door. Also, if you are trying to run a school, you can't restrict classes to those people with black-belt experience - not if you want to pay your rent. You have to let in complete novices.
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Jun 29, 2012 17:56
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My school teaches Tenshin aikido. We work on strikes, although it's not a major focus. As far as resistance goes, when learning, especially with a low ranked student, we start with no resistance. But once the basics of the maneuver are learned, we go hard. The person being thrown will resist, attempt to fight back, etc. If I don't do the maneuver correctly, they don't go down. However, as the person being thrown, there is certainly a point where, if you fight it, you are going to get hurt. So you go with it.
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Jun 29, 2012 18:09
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Pagan posted:My school teaches Tenshin aikido. We work on strikes, although it's not a major focus. As far as resistance goes, when learning, especially with a low ranked student, we start with no resistance. But once the basics of the maneuver are learned, we go hard. The person being thrown will resist, attempt to fight back, etc. If I don't do the maneuver correctly, they don't go down. Do you ever do full resistance, nothing pre-planned sparring? Like two guys in front of each other and it's just "may the best man win" sort of stuff? Not just "ok you do a punch and then I grab it and you try to resist the throw"? My judo coach did some aikido and some of the wrists locks are super effective and will hurt like a bitch/get you down easily. But it's always the "get to the wrist lock part" that I find dubious. It's super effective once you have it in place, but I highly doubt he'd be able to get me in a good wrist lock often if we were doing a real randori. They are definitely worth practicing if your art allows it (they are not allowed in judo so I don't really care about them), but I don,t really like the way Aikido teaches them from what I gathered on the internet and the 4 months I spent learning aikido KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 18:16
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I know Aikido isn't well received here and I can understand why. To me Aikido seems very defensive and I've noticed that offensive styles and techniques seem to get more credit. Aikido isn't winning any MMA fights but I don't think that was it's purpose. It was derived from a sword culture and was meant to be passive from what I understand. I can't argue effectiveness in a fight as I've never tried to use it in a fight or am I skilled enough to try. If I found myself in a fight I would rely on my jujitsu to (hopefully) get superior positioning and control the situation. Once you're in control the locks and holds are basically the same from what I can tell. I will mention that the Aikido at my dojo is very similar to the techniques that prison staff is taught in my area as part of their safety and restraint training. They are not allowed to "hurt" a prisoner but are required to "control" them if the prisoner tries to fight. I'm no expert so I can't argue with the collective genius that is the internet. Nothing is perfect for every situation and in the end I enjoy Aikido even with it's flaws.
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Jun 29, 2012 18:18
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Pagan posted:My school teaches Tenshin aikido. We work on strikes, although it's not a major focus. As far as resistance goes, when learning, especially with a low ranked student, we start with no resistance. But once the basics of the maneuver are learned, we go hard. The person being thrown will resist, attempt to fight back, etc. If I don't do the maneuver correctly, they don't go down. We don't get in to wrestling around when we resist but we will walk/stand out of technique if it's not right at least at the low level I'm at. We've done some randori style stuff before but mostly I'm still trying to get the basic techniques down. I think it's important to note here that in any throw based MA at some point uke has to just go with it to not injure themselves. It is practice after all and I'd like to be able to show up to work the next day!
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Jun 29, 2012 18:27
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First off, as long as you are training something because you find it fun then it doesn't matter how effective or realistic it is. Any hobby that gets people working out and enjoying time with friends is good and if that's what you're after then there is nothing wrong with doing it via Akido. It isn't the techniques themselves that are the issue with Akido, it's how they are practiced. Full contact sparring isn't realistic in any art with small joint manipulation. But there are a whole lot of techniques that can be done at very close to 100% if you have a trained and trusting partner. There is no single big thing that sets Akido apart, it is a combination of a hundred different little things. Stuff that turns it into a dance rather than a technique. For example in the video you posted that is two black belts who had an unlimited number of takes. But even so you can see that there is never any kuzushi (taking of the balance), if she had just been miming those falls without him doing anything to her it would have looked identical. At no point is she actually responding to a joint lock or other attack, there is never even a fleeting look of pain on her face. She's just responding to how she's been taught to fall for that sequence of movements. She's acting like I'd expect a white belt to act the first few weeks of practice. Not how a black belt would act while working with another black belt. n3rdal3rt posted:I think it's important to note here that in any throw based MA at some point uke has to just go with it to not injure themselves. It is practice after all and I'd like to be able to show up to work the next day! Judo, Sambo, and Greco-Roman Wrestling would love to speak with you about that. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 18:56
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n3rdal3rt posted:I think it's important to note here that in any throw based MA at some point uke has to just go with it to not injure themselves. It is practice after all and I'd like to be able to show up to work the next day! That's not true at all? You learn to fall and you get a nice mat and you can do full resistance sparring multiple times a week and not get injured (or well, rarely). Most throwing/wrestling MAs that have a sport/competitive aspect to them train with full resistance/0 compliance.
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Jun 29, 2012 19:01
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KingColliwog posted:That's not true at all? You learn to fall and you get a nice mat and you can do full resistance sparring multiple times a week and not get injured (or well, rarely). Most throwing/wrestling MAs that have a sport/competitive aspect to them train with full resistance/0 compliance. Well, he's talking about throws that work via a submission component like a wristlock. If I get a kimura on you standing up, you can try and muscle out of it or you can roll forward and likely wind up in side control. You're probably going to roll, especially if you're just training. Hell it's a lot better than tapping, which itself should be done "early and often." McNerd fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 19:25
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n3rdal3rt posted:
What kind of crappy fighter trains for a fight by trying not to get hurt? Don't delude yourself when training. I don't. I would never rely on my wushu or capoiera in a fight.
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Jun 29, 2012 19:28
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Guilty posted:What kind of crappy fighter trains for a fight by trying not to get hurt? I've never heard of an Aikido guy calling himself a 'fighter'
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Jun 29, 2012 19:36
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Guilty posted:What kind of crappy fighter trains for a fight by trying not to get hurt? Akido and arts like it aren't about training for a fight. They are about training to respond to an attack or subdue someone. They aren't supposed to be useful for a UFC fighter. They are supposed to be useful to a bouncer/policeman. Properly trained, there are a huge number of techniques that are part of Akido that can be useful in the right situation. One of the biggest advantages is that they allow you to scale your response to the situation. Throw a drunk rear end in a top hat to the concrete and you're lucky if all that happens is you get sued. But put that same drunk rear end in a top hat into a compliance joint lock and the situation is defused without anybody getting hurt. The issue with Akido is how they train, not what they train. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jun 29, 2012 |
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Jun 29, 2012 19:42
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McNerd posted:
If you get a kimura on me standing up I really clearly need to never ever train again
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Jun 29, 2012 19:47
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