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Myoclonic Jerk posted:The new combat system looks like it will far exceed my expectations - I was expecting a very minimalistic approach - hit, dodge, block, run away. To have it incorporate stances, different kinds of retreats, and such absolutely floors me. Quite an effort for a one man team. Yep, it's pretty crazy the amount of work he is putting into this. It gets even better though, BBG is back from holiday and has put up a post about multiple combatants.  quote:I also made some changes to the timing of combat moves. Now, certain moves always happen before others, such as getting up, parrying, or dodging. This way, actions make more sense (parries make subsequent attacks harder, and getting up should happen sooner in case a later attack knocks them down again).
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Jul 10, 2012 06:07
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Myoclonic Jerk posted:My only request is that combat continue to be a highly dangerous tactic of last resort. It shouldn't be possible for a player to become good enough at combat for it to be a valid first choice upon encounters. It's fine if the player gets desperate and decides to attack a scavenger for their food, clothing, or lighter, but that's what it should be - an act of desperation. That kind of defeats the purpose of having combat in the game in the first place. The reason it is getting overhauled is because it is currently worthless. Also, shooting a guy and taking his stuff is "gaming the system" in a post-apocalyptic RPG? Really? Nobody is taking away your ability to be sneaky and solve things other ways, I'm not sure why you're so morally offended someone would want to play a single player game a different way than you.
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Jul 10, 2012 07:52
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Expandable message window, hover over the message window for it to expand:
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Jul 11, 2012 04:58
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I'm kinda confused, is the new combat thing actually in yet or is he just testing it for the moment before releasing?
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Jul 11, 2012 05:12
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Thompsons posted:I'm kinda confused, is the new combat thing actually in yet or is he just testing it for the moment before releasing? He is still testing atm. I'm updating this thread from his dev blog/news. Don't worry, I"ll make a big thing about it when there is a new build.
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Jul 11, 2012 05:15
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Zaodai posted:Also, shooting a guy and taking his stuff is "gaming the system" in a post-apocalyptic RPG? Really? Nobody is taking away your ability to be sneaky and solve things other ways, I'm not sure why you're so morally offended someone would want to play a single player game a different way than you. Erm, no one here seems to be "morally offended" here except you. Chill. It's just my opinion that, as a survival-horror type game, combat should always feel dangerous. I agree that attacking another human and taking his stuff should be both possible and a valid tactic . . . sometimes. I just don't want it to be possible to exploit the system by playing it as a "Kill all the dudes" RPG. The emphasis on scrounging and scavenging your way through life as a highly vulnerable character is precisely what makes the game unique. It's just my opinion and input, I promise to not get too butthurt if a combat-oriented build can do well. Hell, I've tried to play exactly that way several times on the past builds just for giggles and gotten creamed every time.
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Jul 11, 2012 13:27
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It's not unreasonable to ask that it be possible for your character to be better at killing guys than a smelly starving man if you put points into combat at character creation. Currently, there is literally no way to increase your chances in combat. Crazy scurvy starving looters will scratch you to death while you helplessly beat them with a crowbar.
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Jul 11, 2012 19:13
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pw pw pw posted:Currently, there is literally no way to increase your chances in combat. Crazy scurvy starving looters will scratch you to death while you helplessly beat them with a crowbar. Yeah, that's because the current combat system is... well, it's rear end. I'm sure combat characters will be much more viable with the new combat system. I can't see it turning into a "kill all the dude RPG" though, not from the logs that have been posted of the fights. It looks like it's still going to be very difficult, but difficult in a good way, not in a "what just happened, why am I dead" kind of way like combat currently is. Xik fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 22:01
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Difficulty is fine, but it shouldn't be completely random like it is now. Calling combat an exploit is, frankly, stupid. It may not be the way you want to play it, but it's inherently built into the game. People aren't hacking in an attack command. Being smug because you choose not to fight is asinine.
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Jul 11, 2012 22:03
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Combat is pretty trivialized once you have a weapon with ammo, though. Whether you're using the rifle with softpoint or FMJ it kills or cripples anything in one shot. Yeah maybe you can say "but ammo is so expensive/rare" but with the way forest shacks spawn over time you'll be able to get a bunch of bullets and other poo poo just by scavenging them as they appear.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:21
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 Build Update: Beta Build: 0.941b Full news item is on the site. It's the big "Combat Update". quote:As you can tell from the title, the new combat system is the big feature to look for. Combat now takes place when a player ends their turn in an occupied hex. Creatures attracted via scavenging appear in the current hex, which means combat immediately starts after scavenge results. And a whole bunch of other stuff:
Also, BBG mentioned this is just "Phase 1" of the combat update: quote:What does "Phase 1" mean? Well, there are still features planned for the new combat system. Wounds are a big one, which will hopefully make injury a bigger deal, and add more ways to mitigate them. Also, skill-specific moves are coming up (only basic moves that everyone can use are in right now). Haven't played yet, will probably be burning a few hours on it later tonight.
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Jul 12, 2012 05:20
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I'm guessing mitigating injury means we might actually get things like body armor, whether it be actual combat uniforms or like heavy uncomfortable stuff we can make out of scrap iron and phonebooks.
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Jul 12, 2012 08:57
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Is the site down for anyone else?
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Jul 12, 2012 10:43
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It seems like the new update's broken a couple things: Rest + Heal doesn't actually do anything and when I went to sleep it just spammed the "zzz" message without any real passage of time and no way for me to get out of it.
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Jul 12, 2012 13:59
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I finally caved and pitched in my support, but I still can't play the closed beta, despite having the receipt and everything. Is this because the website is having trouble? I just want to have crowbar duels with raiders in crumbling buildings while dying of cholera 
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Jul 12, 2012 16:01
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Angry Diplomat posted:I finally caved and pitched in my support, but I still can't play the closed beta, despite having the receipt and everything. Is this because the website is having trouble? I just want to have crowbar duels with raiders in crumbling buildings while dying of cholera Yeah I'm getting the same problem, however I've sent an email about it to the guy. At least you can mess about on the demo.
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Jul 12, 2012 16:32
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I've already beaten the demo a couple of times! No worries, though. Seeing as this is apparently a short-term thing, I'll just sit tight and see what happens. e: It's working 
Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 16:47
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Hey Guys! Sorry about the access/order issues this morning. I forgot that my ISP was doing maintenance overnight, which broke a few forms on the site. Great timing, eh? Anyway, it appears to be working again, and I've manually fixed both Angry Diplomat's and Geokinesis's orders. Thanks for your patience! @Thompsons - I'll have to look into rest+heal. The new turn order might've messed up the way that works. Also, body armor is definitely on my wishlist. Steel-belted radial tires seem like a great (and abundant) material for banded/scale mail armor. I hadn't thought of phonebooks and rebar though! @Aries - The site should be up now. Feel free to email me if that's still not the case for you. Re: the combat debate - I think both sides of the debate have merit. On one hand, I want combat to be a messy affair, and something not taken lightly. Definitely not something one "grinds" in the traditional CRPG sense. On the other hand, I want players who spec for combat to be rewarded for that choice. I think the right balance may come from the forthcoming wound update. If bleeding, fractures, and infection are possible, combat is more scary. Gauging combat becomes less of "who can absorb more damage" and more about tactically avoiding damage, or mitigating the wounds you couldn't avoid. Players who spec for combat (e.g. melee, tough, strong, ranged, etc.) should have more latitude in battle. Their skill should mean they are more likely to hurt without being hurt. However, their lack of other skills should be a penalty outside of battle (plot encounters, non-combat scavenging/crafting). And if wounds are done right, their lack of healing options might be a drawback. A tricky balance to strike, but that's the goal. Regarding ranged being overpowered, that may have improved this build. I'm waiting to see what folks say. Ammo frequency has been reduced, plus attacks can now miss. (ranged combat factors in distance, movement, cover, etc.) Those changes should make ranged combat less of a sure thing, and drive up ammo preciousness. In theory anyway  Finally, this is a new system, so it's always possible I've screwed the balance up. Cameron has already pointed out that the moves should probably be a bit more explanatory (e.g. why choose "desperate retreat" over "retreat"?) I'll see if I can make the moves clearer today. So if any other things seem way out of whack, let me know!
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Jul 12, 2012 18:08
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Thanks again BBG. Was just having a super successful run with character with the melee skill. Mainly because it seems taking cover doesn't make you very likely to fall and so there is high chance the opponent will fall allowing you to tackle, then kick them repeatedly till you bludgeon them with a tool. So far I've killed 3 looters, 2 raiders, 1 bandit and 1 dogman this way without receiving a single hit, although I was wounded after picking the melee skill exit from the cryo facility. Edit: So I literally kicked your dogman. 
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Jul 12, 2012 18:21
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I made a character who's athletic and tough, letting him move around quite well in combat and endure wounds better, but who has no combat-specific skills. While scrounging in a city somewhere I attracted the attention of a raider with a crowbar. Armed only with a frying pan, I tackled him, kicked him in the ribs, and winged him with my trusty beatin' pan before he decided to run. What followed was a frenzied pursuit through ruined streets, with me chasing him and attacking him for several game turns before I finally ran him down with a tackle and beat his head in with my murderpan. Victorious, I stole his sweet shoes, his jeans, and his crowbar. Murderpan was left behind as a grim headstone on the raider's shallow grave. That night, I tried to make camp in a forest, but my character's insomnia kept acting up so I moved into a ruined town to sleep in a run-down residence. That proved enough to let me sleep, but unfortunately a dogman woke me up. After a brief scuffle, I was seriously wounded and decided it was time to run. A lucky trip on the dogman's part let me get clear. That dogman proceeded to chase after me, but in the dead of night, neither of us could see one another. Multiple "combats" passed by with my insomniac survivor huddled behind cover, fearfully scanning the shadows with Spy before fleeing into the night, never directly encountering his relentless hunter. Then a combat occurred with two participants. Another dogman? Another escape, and another encounter - from the worldmap tile, I'd been found by two raiders and two dogmen at the same time.  I ran like gently caress, and nobody followed. I can only assume the dogmen ate well that night. The following morning, a looter found my sleep-deprived character busting open a storage shed, took a look at his crowbar, looked at his own empty hands, and immediately ran as fast as his legs could carry him. I let him go. With any luck, he'd distract the dogmen. Holy poo poo this game loving owns now.
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Jul 12, 2012 18:50
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I just spent the night killing and then sleeping in the still warm blood of 3 raiders, however even though I got some good naps I was still at weary. Then when I did go back to sleep it was forever it seemed. (Well 5 minutes, but still a long time to stare at a black screen seeing zzz zzz.) Edit: For me it seems sometimes when I use Rest+Heal or sleep the game just seems to stop doing anything at all, leading to me needing to refresh the page. FairyNuff fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 18:53
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Looks like I introduced a bug in the turn order. I just uploaded a new copy which should hopefully fix that issue. You'll know if you have the new copy if the sleep and rest+heal buttons are now next to each other in the top right of the screen. Clicking either of them while on the main map takes you to camp now, where clicking on either of them again activates them. While sleeping, you cannot wake up until either rested or disturbed. However, while resting, clicking the rest button again stops the resting. Since that's a pretty big bug fix, I figured I'd upload it now rather than wait until this evening Let me know if it works!
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Jul 12, 2012 19:40
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Seems great so far. However, I did notice that "advance under cover" and "fall back under cover" have inverted effects. It sure is a good thing that bandit's rifle turned out not to be loaded! e: Also it appears that using your last turn to enter the Glow for the first time causes you to be permanently stuck there mashing the "confirm" button with no effect. gently caress e2: Actually no, I still have two moves left this turn. 
Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 20:40
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BlueBottleGames posted:Looks like I introduced a bug in the turn order. I just uploaded a new copy which should hopefully fix that issue. Yeah the buttons seem to work well now! A few questions/observations: When identifying mushrooms or berries with botany you can only do one unit at at time rather than a whole stack. This seems really strange as with mushrooms there is only one icon for both the edible and poisonous varieties. However when unidentified they don't stack so you just need to ID the top one and then you can just take the stack it came from without having to worry about wasting turns on any more than one mushroom. Would it make more sense to ID all units in the stack? You can't make anything out of iSlabs or anything using electrical or mechanical or hacking skills currently can you? As if so I've never seen any recipes that aren't the more woodsy outdoor type. Edit: I really am enjoying the tackle then kick combo, just satisfying to be able to some how cripple a dogman by kicking it barefoot, then smacking it with a pan when it stands up. Maybe a bit like a slapstick cartoon.
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Jul 12, 2012 22:03
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BBG has already posted about it, but there was a bug fix build.
The Sleep and Rest + Heal buttons have been moved and they now take you to the camp.  
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Jul 13, 2012 05:52
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This is why BBG is great. quote:I started looking into wounds today. After almost 10 hours of perusing Wikipedia, medical websites, and learning about infections, shock, and other fun stuff, I have a pretty huge document of notes. Plus, Cameron's already done quite a bit of research and has some good proposals. On another note, I'm pretty glad Save+Quit did get implemented when it did even though this is the first time I've actually used it. The game feels much slower paced now which I actually enjoy, it's just that multiple sessions is almost mandatory unless you have hours to burn at a time.
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Jul 14, 2012 03:59
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Please implement Snake Eater's wound treatment system, tia
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Jul 14, 2012 04:04
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Xik posted:This is why BBG is great. 
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Jul 14, 2012 05:55
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Thompsons posted:Please implement Snake Eater's wound treatment system, tia Could you elaborate for us who haven't played it?
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Jul 14, 2012 12:33
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Darval posted:Could you elaborate for us who haven't played it? You have a full body x-ray thing that shows in depth wounds to specific parts of the body, then have to apply objects in the correct order (though I don't think it will let you apply them wrong) to fix that specific wound type. It gave an illusion of complexity when really it just meant you had to carry more poo poo around to fix your wounds.
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Jul 14, 2012 12:42
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I think Robinson's Requiem would probably be a more appropriate analogy than Snake Eater (wounds in MGS3 were really just "reduces your health maximum until treated with the right object"). On an unrelated note, what's with the "No Worky" button that's been there forever? Why not just take that off the interface?
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Jul 15, 2012 23:42
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Wurm Online has/had a pretty neat wound system.
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Jul 16, 2012 02:27
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First peek at Wounds quote:What we see here is the same paper doll used for items. Wound graphics will appear over the doll when the player sustains an injury. In this case, it's a deep cut in the upper arm, and it's gushing blood. The white crud on the cut is an infection, and the lightning bolt signifies that this wound is very painful. quote:You'll also notice the three new stat bars on the right. Similar to camp, this screen shows more detail on a few stats.
There is more information over on the news page but most of it is unimplemented/still being considered. Like everything BBG adds to this game, he isn't doing it "half assed" and looks like he has plenty planned for the wound system.
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Jul 18, 2012 04:04
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If nothing else it would give the antibiotics some purpose. After you get a lighter, water bottles and a saucepan you pretty much never have to worry about getting dysentery again, making antibiotics a vendor trash item.
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Jul 18, 2012 04:35
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Xik posted:First peek at Wounds This looks pretty cool and is exactly what I was hoping for from an injury system. One thing that I hope you can do is improvise medical supplies; in a postapocalyptic setting it doesn't make a lot of sense that you'll find proper bandages and splints and disinfectant everywhere, so you'd have to use things like booze as disinfectant, tear up shirts to make bandages, etc. Maybe certain skills could be involved too, like botany would let you combine certain herbs to make antibiotics or other medicines. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 18, 2012 |
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Jul 18, 2012 20:30
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The Cheshire Cat posted:This looks pretty cool and is exactly what I was hoping for from an injury system. One thing that I hope you can do is improvise medical supplies; in a postapocalyptic setting it doesn't make a lot of sense that you'll find proper bandages and splints and disinfectant everywhere, so you'd have to use things like booze as disinfectant, tear up shirts to make bandages, etc. Maybe certain skills could be involved too, like botany would let you combine certain herbs to make antibiotics or other medicines. Then you're in luck, it looks like that's exactly what BBG is doing. From the latest news post (bold mine): quote:Work on the wound system continues, and today I focused on the ability to apply items to wounds. So far, I've got dirty rags acting as bandages on my test wound, and it stops the bleeding temporarily while applied. Removing it again causes the bleeding to resume, unless the wound has healed in the meantime. Also, a bit about how it's going to actually function: quote:Regarding healing, I'm considering having individual wounds evolve over time if left untreated. Pain should decrease over time naturally. Quick at first, the relief decelerates over time, with minor lingering pain lasting a long while.
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Jul 19, 2012 03:03
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Wound system looks really cool, hadn't expected this from the game at all. I hope he still rewrites the crafting system at some point though. It was dropped because it turned out to be more complicated than first assumed right?
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Jul 19, 2012 12:29
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You can craft stuff right now though  I have a Hobo King wearing raiments that he personally crafted from the hides of squirrels that he personally caught using a squirrel snare that he, again, personally crafted.
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Jul 19, 2012 12:38
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Darval posted:Wound system looks really cool, hadn't expected this from the game at all. I hope he still rewrites the crafting system at some point though. It was dropped because it turned out to be more complicated than first assumed right? Oh? The crafting system is in there and working. Are you playing the beta or the demo?
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Jul 19, 2012 12:56
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"Operation Wound Man" continues according to BBG... A bunch of items are going to be added to manage blood loss, infection, and pain.  From left-to-right, top-to-bottom, they are:
quote:[...]whiskey poured over an infected wound will help kill the bacteria (reducing the wound's infection rate), but will hurt like hell (increasing the wound's pain). Alternately, one could drink the whiskey to get drunk, reducing overall pain in the body, but hurting hydration, body temperature, and blood supply.
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Jul 20, 2012 02:49
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