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Mo_Steel posted:Was wondering when we'd get to see this chestnut again. Just World Fallacy ahoy, only people that don't work hard wind up needing help in life! You can pretty easily dismiss the entire analogy by pointing out that income disparity and wealth inequality is significantly wider than 4 and 2 and that the analogy has a number of false premises meant to grab an obvious conclusion. The last and final Facebook debate I engaged in ended when I pointed out a logical fallacy in my opponent's argument. He just accused me of trying to confuse the issue and control the conversation like a "typical liberal". Then he called me mentally ill. 
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Jul 13, 2012 17:31
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But now his phone's wet.  Of course, my phone is completely waterproof, shockproof, oilproof, and scratchproof, but I can't do Facebook from it, so who knows what he's got.
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Jul 13, 2012 17:33
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UnmaskedGremlin posted:FB acquantance posted this link yesterday. Presumably that buddy will also loan the $100 for a drivers license (not even talking about lessons), the $300 or so it costs to pay for titling and registration, the $70-130 per month for car insurance, and the $50 a month for gas? And of course, the taxes on the vehicle purchase that you pay during registration. And the inspection sticker. And hopefully he'll donate his time to go get all those done at the DMV so the poors don't have to take a day or two off work.
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Jul 13, 2012 17:37
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I've never been poor in my life, nor have I ever really been in a real financial crunch. This makes me much less qualified to talk about what the poor can and cannot afford. The funny thing is that many people in my situation feel that they DO know about the plight of poverty, and how the poor should be spending their money. I often argue with my dad about this, as he can't fathom the fact that some people can't afford an ID or anybody having a hard time getting to the DMV for an ID.
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Jul 13, 2012 17:44
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jojoinnit posted:Presumably that buddy will also loan the $100 for a drivers license (not even talking about lessons), the $300 or so it costs to pay for titling and registration, the $70-130 per month for car insurance, and the $50 a month for gas? And of course, the taxes on the vehicle purchase that you pay during registration. And the inspection sticker. Also, the only car available for $500 is not worth $500, it's a junker. Selling a car for scrap is $200, so anyone selling a car for $500 knows it's basically a goner. You have to pay $1200 minimum for a used car. Also, I don't know anyone who has $500 to loan to even their closest friends, let alone to acquaintances. He literally thinks everyone knows someone with $500 laying around.
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Jul 13, 2012 17:46
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Leon Einstein posted:I've never been poor in my life, nor have I ever really been in a real financial crunch. This makes me much less qualified to talk about what the poor can and cannot afford. The funny thing is that many people in my situation feel that they DO know about the plight of poverty, and how the poor should be spending their money. Homeless people probably have difficulty too. I'm pretty sure you need to have a residential address to get an ID issued in most states.
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Jul 13, 2012 17:50
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I actually looked it up in the election thread. Apparently, for registration of homeless people, it is acceptable to write in the intersection or park where they frequent, and for the illiterate, it is acceptable to draw a map. However, certain states, like PA, now require proof of address, like a utility bill with your name printed on it. I really doubt that's legal.
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Jul 13, 2012 17:55
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jojoinnit posted:Presumably that buddy will also loan the $100 for a drivers license (not even talking about lessons), the $300 or so it costs to pay for titling and registration, the $70-130 per month for car insurance, and the $50 a month for gas? And of course, the taxes on the vehicle purchase that you pay during registration. And the inspection sticker.
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Jul 13, 2012 18:10
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Iceberg-Slim posted:Which one is that? I didn't save it, but it was posted a few pages ago. It's the one that says if you cross the border illegally in Afghanistan you get shot, but in America you get healthcare and welfare.
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Jul 13, 2012 18:21
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Guilty Spork posted:Yeah, that guy just really doesn't get how poor people can really be. I do wish I was making more than I am from my job, but I have to stop and remind myself that it could be far, far worse. For some people $100 for DMV fees is a pretty loving big deal.
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Jul 13, 2012 18:33
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XyloJW posted:I actually looked it up in the election thread. Apparently, for registration of homeless people, it is acceptable to write in the intersection or park where they frequent, and for the illiterate, it is acceptable to draw a map. Good to know, I was actually having difficulty trying to find the laws in my state on that one.
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Jul 13, 2012 18:39
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Can you even get a car for $500 anymore? Maybe a decent road bike, but the kind of poo poo bucket you'd get for 500 bucks would nickle and dime you even further into debt in no time flat. e; wow, late reply
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Jul 13, 2012 18:46
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jojoinnit posted:Yeah, people who say poo poo like that tend to equate being poor with being a bit short of cash. They have no reference point for being in a situation where you work 60 hours at $6 per to you know, not die, with little chance of things improving. Inform them that servers make $2.17 before tax (but they're taxed at $7.25, under the assumption that they will make that much in tips, even if they don't), which after taxes means $1 an hour. There've been many days when I left work with $10 in my pocket from an 8 hour shift. If you complain, you'll be fired for not being a good enough server. It is impossible to prove a customer didn't tip because they were upset with the service, and also $10 isn't enough for a lawyer. Then when he says "Get a better job," tell him there are none. In my experience, one unavoidable, unexplainable counterexample should be enough to get them to shut up, or at least change the subject and think about it later when they're not embarrassed.
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Jul 13, 2012 18:51
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XyloJW posted:Inform them that servers make $2.17 before tax (but they're taxed at $7.25, under the assumption that they will make that much in tips, even if they don't), which after taxes means $1 an hour. There've been many days when I left work with $10 in my pocket from an 8 hour shift. If you complain, you'll be fired for not being a good enough server. It is impossible to prove a customer didn't tip because they were upset with the service, and also $10 isn't enough for a lawyer. The problem with this example is that all it will take is one story of a bartender friend who makes hundreds on tips alone in a single night, and the person will feel vindicated. Servers are treated like poo poo in the US though.
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Jul 13, 2012 19:02
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NatasDog posted:Can you even get a car for $500 anymore? Maybe a decent road bike, but the kind of poo poo bucket you'd get for 500 bucks would nickle and dime you even further into debt in no time flat. My friend is a mechanic and his mantra is that a car in street legal condition and with a working engine and transmission is worth no less than $1000.
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Jul 13, 2012 19:05
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babies havin rabies posted:My friend is a mechanic and his mantra is that a car in street legal condition and with a working engine and transmission is worth no less than $1000. For my first car, I bought a used, 15 year old car in 2007 for $750. It was from a friend and I talked her down from 1250 she was asking for. I can only imagine how the recession has made the used car market more expensive. Especially so for people on very limited budgets. I still ended up putting close to 3 grand into the car for the four yeas I owned it. Also, I couldn't get my license till I was 21 since my state at the time required that you own the car (or your direct family did anyways, my mom didn't have a car) that you took your test in. Photo ID on the other hand, was easy to get so long as you had 20 bucks, an hour to kill, and your vital records on hand. This was in Rhode Island. Handsome Ralph fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jul 13, 2012 |
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Jul 13, 2012 19:09
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JetsGuy posted:The problem with this example is that all it will take is one story of a bartender friend who makes hundreds on tips alone in a single night, and the person will feel vindicated. Yes, that's the example, but the point is you're not arguing whether or not tipping is fair, you're arguing that there are people who really cannot afford an ID. All it takes is one example to say "You're telling that waitress she can't vote."
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Jul 13, 2012 19:13
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To add to the $500 car discussion, a car that can be purchased for $500 is literally a novelty act to be banged around and possibly crushed.
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Jul 13, 2012 19:19
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CellBlock posted:To add to the $500 car discussion, a car that can be purchased for $500 is literally a novelty act to be banged around and possibly crushed. The car submitted has to be purchased and have a professionally installed rollbar for under $500 total. The car itself can't be worth even $500 and the car in question probably wouldn't be street legal or suitable as any kind of daily driver anyway. Factoring in repairs, insurance, and taxes, you have to safely have $1500/yr of expendable income to drive even a beater in the US (perfect driving record too). If you're poor in the USA, the best way to buy a car is to go to a police auction and buy a car seized from another poor person. babies havin rabies fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 13, 2012 |
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Jul 13, 2012 19:31
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UnmaskedGremlin posted:FB acquantance posted this link yesterday. What's your friend's name? I need $500.
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Jul 13, 2012 19:41
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Also, it's hilarious that he has an interest rate for "buddies." I have never heard of an interest rate between friends, no matter how big the loan.
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Jul 13, 2012 19:42
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XyloJW posted:Also, it's hilarious that he has an interest rate for "buddies." I have never heard of an interest rate between friends, no matter how big the loan. Well, that's presumably the rate for the stranger that he's presumably willing to give $500 to if their buddies can't cover the loan. I would once again like to point out that this entire bit of insanity has basically been covered in The Onion.
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Jul 13, 2012 20:29
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quote:Let's get this right, the actual facts.
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Jul 13, 2012 20:42
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Econosaurus posted:Facts: *Not a fact
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Jul 13, 2012 20:44
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archangelwar posted:And the theory of marginal utility of GPA is... The exact inverse of the marginal utility of money, which is why the whole analogy is dumb as all gently caress 
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Jul 13, 2012 20:58
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Econosaurus posted:Let's get this right, the actual facts. So, you're saying the Palestinians are Nazis? The west has nearly universally agreed that the bombing of Dresden was an unnecessary atrocity, would you say the same about Israel's actions? Nazi Germany was equivalent in strength the Allies, would you say that the Palestinians are the equivalent of Israel?
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Jul 13, 2012 21:56
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babies havin rabies posted:The car submitted has to be purchased and have a professionally installed rollbar for under $500 total. The car itself can't be worth even $500 and the car in question probably wouldn't be street legal or suitable as any kind of daily driver anyway. Or seized from drug dealers and other criminals.  Armyman25 posted:So, you're saying the Palestinians are Nazis? Also notice the part where they write: quote:10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms. Notice how they never mention the 6 million Jews (and over 6 million Roma, homosexuals, mentally ill, physcially disabled, communists, socialists, Slavs, etc.) murdered by Christian Germans, Austrians, French, Poles, Russians, etc. It's almost like this is a racist, anti-Muslim diatribe that ignores any hypocrisy or double standards. XyloJW posted:*Not a fact That's probably the best part of the entire screed. It's obvious that this person either hasn't actually read the entire thing or just knows almost nothing about Islam and Judaism. It's just the same bullshit that gets passed around by right-wing Christians who don't know much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict other than what they're spoon-fed by right-wing media and their eschatology-obsessed churches.
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Jul 14, 2012 02:39
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XyloJW posted:Inform them that servers make $2.17 before tax (but they're taxed at $7.25, under the assumption that they will make that much in tips, even if they don't), which after taxes means $1 an hour. There've been many days when I left work with $10 in my pocket from an 8 hour shift. If you complain, you'll be fired for not being a good enough server. It is impossible to prove a customer didn't tip because they were upset with the service, and also $10 isn't enough for a lawyer. I once had someone respond to that line of argument by saying it was federal law that if a server makes below federal minimum wage over a pay period due to lack of tips, that the employer had to make up the difference. While I'm sure there's plenty of chances for employers to cheat their employees if this is the law, does anyone know for sure if this definitely is or is not the case?
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Jul 14, 2012 02:49
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Idran posted:I once had someone respond to that line of argument by saying it was federal law that if a server makes below federal minimum wage over a pay period due to lack of tips, that the employer had to make up the difference. While I'm sure there's plenty of chances for employers to cheat their employees if this is the law, does anyone know for sure if this definitely is or is not the case? 
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Jul 14, 2012 02:51
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I'm guessing that means "no, the government doesn't care about waiters and servers in the slightest", eh?  I probably could have guessed that, but it's good to know it for sure.
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Jul 14, 2012 02:53
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babies havin rabies posted:The car submitted has to be purchased and have a professionally installed rollbar for under $500 total. The car itself can't be worth even $500 and the car in question probably wouldn't be street legal or suitable as any kind of daily driver anyway. No, the safety equipment is not part of the limits. Most quality roll cages cost about $1000 (or more)
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Jul 14, 2012 02:53
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Idran posted:I once had someone respond to that line of argument by saying it was federal law that if a server makes below federal minimum wage over a pay period due to lack of tips, that the employer had to make up the difference. While I'm sure there's plenty of chances for employers to cheat their employees if this is the law, does anyone know for sure if this definitely is or is not the case?
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Jul 14, 2012 03:01
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Heh, liberal elitists arguing that the members of a restaurant's staff should be paid enough for their rent. I bet they think janitors deserve healthcare, the snobs.
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Jul 14, 2012 03:02
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Idran posted:I once had someone respond to that line of argument by saying it was federal law that if a server makes below federal minimum wage over a pay period due to lack of tips, that the employer had to make up the difference. While I'm sure there's plenty of chances for employers to cheat their employees if this is the law, does anyone know for sure if this definitely is or is not the case? Yes, that is the law. However, most states in the US are "At-will" hiring, which means you can be fired for "No stated reason," which most definitely includes bitching at them because you're not making minimum wage. No manager will keep paying you an extra $5 an hour, when they can just fire you for no reason and hire someone else in a week's time. Or even better, hire them, and have you train them. With the job market as it is, waitress/server work is basically a trap, where you end up poorer than before you took the job, because you fall further and further behind. "I'll make more money next week, when things pick up, and then I'll be able to turn my electric back on!" is something I hear heart-breakingly often. And as I said, it is impossible to prove why they fired you, why you didn't make the requisite amount in tips, or even how much you did make in tips. They'll just claim you made that money and pocketed it without reporting it. Also, they don't ever fire you, they just cut your hours to zero. If they fire you, they'd have to pay your unemployment. But if they just give you zero hours for the rest of eternity, you can't collect a dime! Hope you've got a few tens of thousands of dollars to take them to court with, person who is no longer even making $1 an hour!! Welcome to the US Justice system.
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Jul 14, 2012 06:18
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XyloJW posted:I actually looked it up in the election thread. Apparently, for registration of homeless people, it is acceptable to write in the intersection or park where they frequent, and for the illiterate, it is acceptable to draw a map. In Oregon they're allowed to register with any address where they receive mail. This usually means a homeless shelter. They also only need a SSN to satisfy HAVA requirements here. It's actually a pretty reasonable setup.
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Jul 14, 2012 11:04
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Can anyone find the thread where conservative chain e-mails were mixed and morphed? Audrey and her friend's dad were popular characters.
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Jul 14, 2012 11:48
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Teddles posted:Can anyone find the thread where conservative chain e-mails were mixed and morphed? Audrey and her friend's dad were popular characters. I think this thread is what you want: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2958893 Edit: You probably want The Atheist and The Bear http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2870098&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 CopywrightMMXI fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jul 14, 2012 |
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Jul 14, 2012 14:34
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To be fair though, re: tipping, you'd have to be either a) the shittiest server ever, or b) working in the shittiest, slowest dive ever to not make decent hourly wage as a server. My sister was both a great server, and worked in a busy well established diner, and she could clear $140-160 a night in tips. But if you get a slow dead day, and the wrong crowd, you can bust your rear end for hours to barely scrape out a dime.
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Jul 14, 2012 14:57
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Loving Life Partner posted:To be fair though, re: tipping, you'd have to be either a) the shittiest server ever, or b) working in the shittiest, slowest dive ever to not make decent hourly wage as a server. Jesus Christ, please do not start that. I only brought up tipping as a point that it's possible to be making way below minimum. It's totally unrelated to crazy political emails. Also, good god, you are wrong, but that's neither here nor there.
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Jul 14, 2012 15:22
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Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle 
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Jul 14, 2012 15:28
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