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Bad Munki posted:Tell me about cracking open my breaker panel and adding an entirely new circuit. I've never done such a thing before, so I'm not really sure if this is something I should be doing, or if I'd be better off just paying someone to come in and do it for me, or if it maybe even needs to have a permit to go with the work. Define "30 amp service". If you're going to run a single 30 amp circuit, you really can't install standard 20 amp receptacles in it and plug in (for example) a circular saw. All devices (i.e. the receptacles) must be the same rating as the circuit. Likewise, you wouldn't want to run basic power tools on a circuit protected at 30 amps. You would not be able to plug most tools into a 30 amp receptacle because the configuration is different. Now if you're going to put a sub-panel in the garage and run multiple 20 amp circuits from it, that would be OK but I would go with a sub-panel larger than 30 amp. Maybe you're talking about larger "tools" like an air compressor or something. Are you tripping the 15 amp circuit with one large tool or by running several smaller ones at once. To add for comedy, I just re-wired a a two-car garage where the previous owner was a woodworker. There was a 20-amp receptacle on all but six of the studs in the entire garage. One circuit, daisy-chained all the way around the building with 14-gauge NM-B, ground wires all clipped off and the cable direct-buried under about 2" of mulch to the house. ALL PROTECTED BY A SINGLE-POLE 30 AMP BREAKER. Oh, and almost forgot, he had a gas-furnace hardwired into the last box in the string using lamp cord. Guess where the copper tubing that fed the furnace was run.....that's right, right in the same trench as the electric cable. Best DIY install I've ever seen.
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Jun 15, 2012 01:34
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That's actually good to know. Yes, I tripped the 15A breaker nearly every goddamned time I laid into a piece of thick walnut or maple with my table saw. Super annoying, not to mention dangerous since the lights were on the same circuit. My table saw itself is rated at 20A. Maybe I don't get it because I was thinking a breaker would take any load up to its rating, is that a faulty understanding? Whatever I end up doing, it'll be code-worthy. For this installation, I'm planning on running conduit around the perimeter of the garage and dropping down to outlets as needed. Should I post pictures and a more extensive list of requirements before I start buying supplies? To go further, I certainly could put in a sub panel, I'm not against that. Would definitely be nice to have separate circuits for the major items, anyhow, so maybe I should do that. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jun 15, 2012 |
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Jun 15, 2012 03:44
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Bad Munki posted:My table saw itself is rated at 20A. Maybe I don't get it because I was thinking a breaker would take any load up to its rating, is that a faulty understanding? You're exactly right, a 30 amp breaker would take 30 amps, that's the problem. Everything connected to that breaker is protected at the rating of the breaker. Think of a breaker as a purposely installed "weak-point" in the circuit. If the current exceeds that setting, the breaker opens, protecting the connected load. Now you want to install a 20 amp rated saw on that 30 amp circuit. The breaker may no longer be the weak point of the circuit. Would the saw operate correctly.....absolutely. Problem is that the wire and other components of the saw may not be big enough to carry enough current to trip the breaker, you have a fault somewhere and you get a light show and boom that my be much larger than you're expecting. Same thing applied to the 20-amp receptacles you are likely planning to install in the circuit. Is you garage attached or detached?
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Jun 15, 2012 10:36
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Ahhhhhh, I gotcha now. Maybe I'll run a bunch of separate circuits from a sub panel then. Unless I do that, I fear I'd still be tripping the circuit all the time even if I made it a 20A because there'll be extra lights, an angry table saw (or planer or jointer or band saw or lathe or whatever), some dust collection, and whatever other random crap I have running at any given moment. The garage is attached, or more accurately, integral. I'll post pictures of what I'm working with a little later on.
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Jun 15, 2012 15:45
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Bad Munki posted:Ahhhhhh, I gotcha now. Maybe I'll run a bunch of separate circuits from a sub panel then. Unless I do that, I fear I'd still be tripping the circuit all the time even if I made it a 20A because there'll be extra lights, an angry table saw (or planer or jointer or band saw or lathe or whatever), some dust collection, and whatever other random crap I have running at any given moment. How many spaces do you have available in your main panel? How far is it from the main panel to the garage and what is the degree of difficulty? Might be easier to just run a few circuits from the main and skip the sub. If it's only you working out there, there's a limit to how many things would be running at the same time. Might put a dedicated circuit in for the dust collector, and then maybe some of the other machines can share a circuit since you can only operate one at a time. Keep in mind (depending on your location) that all receptacles now require ground-fault protection.
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Jun 15, 2012 17:12
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:How many spaces do you have available in your main panel? quote:How far is it from the main panel to the garage and what is the degree of difficulty? Might be easier to just run a few circuits from the main and skip the sub. quote:If it's only you working out there, there's a limit to how many things would be running at the same time. Might put a dedicated circuit in for the dust collector, and then maybe some of the other machines can share a circuit since you can only operate one at a time. quote:Keep in mind (depending on your location) that all receptacles now require ground-fault protection.
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Jun 15, 2012 18:01
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Okay, taking a look at the horridly antiquated wiring in my house. 1) The wires aren't covered in rubber, but some weird poo poo. 2) When I removed the horridly lose old two-prong, it was actually in a metal box. That's good I guess. The paneling around where the box was installed looks like it was cut out with a chisel or something. 3) Only two wires coming into the metal box. 4) The box seems kinda small, when I tried to put in a GFCI outlet, it was a tight fit. Not sure if this was because of the box or because I need to trim up the paneling. So, questions: Can I ground the GFCI to the metal box somehow? It's a tight fit, but the GFCI will go almost (~1mm sticking out) into the box. If the tight fit is due to the box and not the paneling, can I still put it in there? I imagine the "wedge poo poo in there" approach to electric is a super bad idea. If I can't ground it to the metal box, is it worth sticking a GFCI in there anyway so I don't have to use those horridly unsafe 3-2 prong adapters? edit: poo poo, I already asked some of these questions a few years ago
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Jun 20, 2012 19:08
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Smiling Jack posted:Okay, taking a look at the horridly antiquated wiring in my house. I will be a tight fit, sometimes you have to hold your mouth just right to get it in. It should go in. DO NOT connect anything to the box itself if you have an ungrounded circuit (only two wires). You could unintentionally create a shock hazard if the hot wire comes in contact with the box. Yes, it's definitely worth installing the GFCI receptacle, you're supposed to put the label on it that says it's an ungrounded circuit. You'll be creating a much safer condition by installing the GFCI.
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Jun 20, 2012 20:13
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Smiling Jack posted:Okay, taking a look at the horridly antiquated wiring in my house. 1. That's probably fabric-covered wire. 2. Steel boxes were all they had in the old days. 3. Hopefully they are different colors. If not, then have fun figuring out which are hot and neutral. Hit us back if you need help. 4. A couple manufacturers now make "slim" GFCIs. They can help with trying to cram them into shallow boxes. They also make GFCI breakers that you install at your panel. You can only ground a receptacle to the metal box if that box is grounded itself. Get a circuit tester and check for a circuit between the hot wire and the box. If it lights up, that box is grounded.
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Jun 20, 2012 23:35
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  Ok imgur seems to be hosed up right now so I'm posting from two hosts. Question: This wall box is the wiring for a wall-mounted light that I want to move about maybe a foot higher up the wall. It looks like they hammered 4 nails into the back of the box to secure it to the wood behind but I'm loving baffled as to how they hammered the nails in and more importantly, how do I get the nails out? There is no way for a claw hammer to fit in there. Should I just say gently caress it and pull the wires out of the box to the left after punching a hole in the drywall and then re-route the whole mess higher up into a new box? I'll be mounting a mirror to the wall so having perfect looking drywall behind it is not essential.
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Jun 30, 2012 20:00
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Totally TWISTED posted:Should I just say gently caress it and pull the wires out of the box to the left after punching a hole in the drywall and then re-route the whole mess higher up into a new box? If you think the cable is long enough, yeah just pull it out and re-route it. If a perfect wall is not important, just knock a little bit of drywall out on the left side of the existing box to get a look at what you're working with. You could then use a bar like this: http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/ProductImageCompressAll300/03-005-113-01.jpg to get behind the box and pull it out. Otherwise most DIY's sell NM by the foot so you would only have to buy as much as you need to junction to the new box and then put a blank cover over the old one.
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Jun 30, 2012 20:31
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:If you think the cable is long enough, yeah just pull it out and re-route it. If a perfect wall is not important, just knock a little bit of drywall out on the left side of the existing box to get a look at what you're working with. What is NM?
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Jun 30, 2012 20:56
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Totally TWISTED posted:What is NM? Non-Metallic cable, usually called Romex.
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Jun 30, 2012 21:09
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Ah thanks.
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Jun 30, 2012 21:20
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:You could then use a bar like this: http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/ProductImageCompressAll300/03-005-113-01.jpg to get behind the box and pull it out. You would never fit that into a box. Try a mini crowbar called a "cat's paw" instead. For the record, you might not want to go tearing that box out just yet. Wire junctions are only allowed in boxes. You can't just twist wires together, then cover them up with drywall. If your mirror will mount on clips that stick out far enough, then you might be able to get away with a junction in your current box and slap a blank cover on it.
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Jun 30, 2012 22:19
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While at a friend's place, I noticed he'd plugged his AC into a portable GFCI (something like http://www.amazon.com/TRC-90265-6-012-Shockshield-Portable-Protection/dp/B000XU5MEG/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1341451009&sr=8-7&keywords=gfci), which he'd then plugged into a cheater plug which then went into a two-prong socket in the wall. It looked like an abomination. I know that cheater plugs are unsafe, but I'm clueless about other aspects of electric wiring - does plugging a GFCI into a cheater plug help at all, or is it still unsafe?
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Jul 5, 2012 02:20
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Kessel posted:While at a friend's place, I noticed he'd plugged his AC into a portable GFCI (something like http://www.amazon.com/TRC-90265-6-012-Shockshield-Portable-Protection/dp/B000XU5MEG/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1341451009&sr=8-7&keywords=gfci), which he'd then plugged into a cheater plug which then went into a two-prong socket in the wall.
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Jul 5, 2012 03:38
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grover posted:What he did was actually OK; it's the only safe way to use a cheater plug. Learn something new every day! Thanks. I guess I really don't know anything about these things at all; I should really remedy that.
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Jul 5, 2012 06:59
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The only legally unsafe way to use a cheater plug is in a permanent installation. It's the same reason power strips and underspecced extension cords that aren't matched to the amperage of the breaker are allowed.
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Jul 5, 2012 10:35
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thelightguy posted:The only legally unsafe way to use a cheater plug is in a permanent installation. It's the same reason power strips and underspecced extension cords that aren't matched to the amperage of the breaker are allowed.
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Jul 5, 2012 14:43
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Given that a large amount of the equipment I install either needs fully isolated grounds or has its performance negatively impacted by having multiple paths to ground, I'm not going to dismiss their usage as inherently unsafe when used temporarily and with an understanding of what you're doing. The problem arises when people plug in their kitchen appliances with cheater plugs and then promptly get zapped.
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Jul 5, 2012 22:23
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Is it more acceptable when running a lighting circuit to feed power into the switch or into the light? My initial thought was from below (swtich) since there's a basement and there's lot of comfortable space to work but I think you might save some cable by running power directly to the attic If feeding source power from below is acceptable, what's the best method for figuring out where to drill the feed hole so that it is directly under the sill plate in the wall cavity? My only idea is to drill a small cheater hole in the floor right in front of the light switch then patch the hole. dwoloz fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 05:47
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i do a lot of remodel work and the way we mark where we want holes is with the 2ft 12 (or 10?) gauge rods they use in crawlspaces to hold up insulation. i wish i could find a picture of what i'm talking about but basically it's a really thin long piece of flexible metal. if you have a drill with an adjustable chuck you put it in that and carefully drill it through the floor right in front of the wall where you need to send wire up. when you go into the basement you'll see it sticking through the floor and you just drill into the wall behind where you sent that rod down (making sure to take note of any baseboard/molding and the width of the sheetrock.) when you pull the rod out there's only a tiny pinhole that's barely noticeable. edit: i went and actually found the code that i was referring to and it saaays: 404.2 Switch Connections. (C) Switches Controlling Lighting. Switches controlling line-to-neutral lighting loads must have a neutral provided at the switch location. Ex.: The neutral conductor isn’t required at the switch location if: (1) The conductors for switches enter the device box through a raceway that has sufficient cross-sectional area to accommodate a neutral conductor. (click here to see Fig. 16) (2) Cable assemblies for switches enter the box through a framing cavity that’s open at the top or bottom on the same floor level or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that’s unfinished on one side. Note: The purpose of the neutral conductor is to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting control devices. so if you will continue to have access from the top or bottom (attic/crawlspace/basement) you can pull the power to wherever you want. i personally prefer to pull it to the switch location first because having the neutral there gives you more/easier options later.. crocodile fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 07:16
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dwoloz posted:Is it more acceptable when running a lighting circuit to feed power into the switch or into the light?
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Jul 12, 2012 11:04
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dwoloz posted:If feeding source power from below is acceptable, what's the best method for figuring out where to drill the feed hole so that it is directly under the sill plate in the wall cavity? My only idea is to drill a small cheater hole in the floor right in front of the light switch then patch the hole. I usually try to find some landmark to measure off of like a fllor vent or something that's visible from both above and below.
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Jul 12, 2012 11:23
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dwoloz posted:Is it more acceptable when running a lighting circuit to feed power into the switch or into the light? It is better to run the power through the switch first, so that the light fixture is de-energized when the switch is off. If you run power to the fixture first, turning the switch off merely opens the neutral; while the bulb might go off, the fixture would still be hot. To drill the sill, you want a long flexible drill extension, like this kit: http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-921-Quick-Change-Extension/dp/B003649AQM However, for a one-off home project that may not be worth the investment. Can you remove the baseboard? This is usually the best way to find yourself access near floor level. Use a box-cutter to cut the paint, and carefully pull the baseboard off a section at a time, ideally starting from an outside corner. Wherever possible, use a solid wood shim to support your prying fulcrum [and protect the wall surface]. Cut out a roughly 2 in square at the base of the wall [far away from the cut paint line that represents what the trim will cover] under your switch. You only need to see 1/2 to 1 inch above the plate to successfully drill a single hole through it and into your basement.
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Jul 14, 2012 18:08
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end mill facade posted:It is better to run the power through the switch first, so that the light fixture is de-energized when the switch is off. If you run power to the fixture first, turning the switch off merely opens the neutral; while the bulb might go off, the fixture would still be hot. You're wiring switches wrong. Don't burn your house down, interrupt the hot at the switch. There's a hot in the fixture, send that to the switch, have a "switch leg" coming back. Neutral on the fixture should go to neutral from the panel.
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Jul 14, 2012 20:45
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:You're wiring switches wrong. Don't burn your house down, interrupt the hot at the switch. There's a hot in the fixture, send that to the switch, have a "switch leg" coming back. Neutral on the fixture should go to neutral from the panel.
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Jul 14, 2012 21:18
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grover posted:Absolutely. But even so, there's still a live hot wire in a light fixture with a switch leg. Nobody should ever be using a light switch as protection against shock anyhow- open the breaker!  Do you require Lock-out/tag-out to change lightbulbs in your house?
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Jul 14, 2012 22:47
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Guy Axlerod posted:
This very question started a week-long 20 page thread on another forum I belong do. Please don't go there.
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Jul 14, 2012 23:01
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If you don't tag out the breaker or physically disconnect the fixture when you're re-lamping, you're doing it wrong. [ask] me about getting zapped and falling off a ladder when relamping a fixture that was connected to a SCR dimmer that was "off" but not disconnected. Best practices would call for tagging out at the nearest disconnect every time you changed a lamp, even in your own home.  E: It would also call for calling out every time you're energizing a circuit. "Kitchen Lights going hot NOW!" corgski fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jul 14, 2012 |
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Jul 14, 2012 23:02
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grover posted:Either way is perfectly acceptable. As latest code requires you to pull in a neutral wire to every light switch now, you'll have to use #12-3 vice #12-2 for the switch loop if you choose to go that route. When I built my garage, I screwed up by running the hot back from the light fixture receptacle to the switch, then the common back to the light (as the hot return) wisely, the inspector failed me for doing this.
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Jul 15, 2012 17:32
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Saw this in a basement in South Philadelphia a couple weeks ago during an inspection.  Looks like it's been there for years...
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Jul 16, 2012 02:24
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The worst part is, that could have done properly for about $5 in today's money, assuming retail prices. Blanking plate, 2 nipples, 3 wire nuts, and you're done. Some insulated staples if you're feeling fancy. That wire looks like it dates back to the 60s, maybe 70s? Wish I had photos of the flying splice I found in a friend's house (I was renting a bedroom from her at the time, so technically I lived there). The bathroom light/fan wouldn't work unless you hit the wall, and even then it would flicker. Climbed up in the attic and found a flying splice. Not even wire nuts, just wires twisted together and covered in a glob of melted electrical tape. The romex cover was melted for several inches in each direction. I wound up cutting out several feet of it and splicing in new romex, except I actually used junction boxes nailed to the beams and stapled the romex down. Probably wasn't up to code, but at least it wasn't going to burn the house down, and that city didn't require a permit if the "homeowner" did any work that didn't involve opening the panel.  This is why you don't use the inspector that a very pushy realtor is recommending. Especially on a $40k foreclosure. More than half of the outlets weren't grounded, and almost as many had hot/neutral swapped - and nearly all of them were so worn out that plugs would fall out unless you bent the prongs. We won't discuss the sagging roof or the live romex sticking up out of the grass in the back yard, or the zip cord running in the attic to the living room ceiling fan. Every outlet in the house eventually got replaced, correcting hot/neutral reversals and actually bothering to ground poo poo, plus adding GFCIs in the bathrooms and kitchen. The inspector's report noted only some cracks in a door frame, the brand new a/c, a crack in the garage door, and the new water heater. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jul 16, 2012 |
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Jul 16, 2012 06:11
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some texas redneck posted:That wire looks like it dates back to the 60s, maybe 70s? Looks identical to the original NM in my house from 1956.
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Jul 16, 2012 18:31
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This would have been safer if it was just twisted and taped in the box, maybe it was done as a temporary fix and was then forgotten about.
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Jul 16, 2012 19:38
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I've been busy for the last month wiring my new house. I took out a homeowners permit and went to town with some family help. Including about 25 circuits, appliances, pumps, landscape lighting, over a dozen recessed lights, three-way and four-way switches, heaters and door bells. I have learned about support requirements, wire gauges, cable acronyms, box fill and numerous other things. Fishing wire through SIPs walls is a major PITA, but the money I've saved on labour is huge! I'm in about 5K in materials (including electrical and structured wiring). The plumbing/heating contractor's electrician will help me with the panel, which is the last part I have to do before I can call the inspector. We'll see how it goes, I feel pretty confident in the work I've done.
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Jul 16, 2012 23:38
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kid sinister posted:Looks identical to the original NM in my house from 1956. Same here, though I haven't found any receptacles bring used as wire nuts (yet).
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Jul 17, 2012 00:09
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some texas redneck posted:Wish I had photos of the flying splice I found in a friend's house ... Climbed up in the attic and found a flying splice. Not even wire nuts, just wires twisted together and covered in a glob of melted electrical tape. I stumbled upon two of these behind the kneewalls in my attic several years ago. Flying splices wrapped in golf-ball-sized rolls of friction tape. Not a wire nut to be found. Sent a chill down my spine. Also had knob & tube tied into Romex, probably from 1974, when the Wadsworth panel was installed. I wound up rewiring the entire house. Does anyone else sing the "Fish Heads" song when using a fish tape? therunningman posted:The plumbing/heating contractor's electrician will help me with the panel, which is the last part I have to do before I can call the inspector. We'll see how it goes, I feel pretty confident in the work I've done. From one DIYer to another, and having changed out my own panel (thank you, 100-amp service disconnect!) the one piece of advice I can pass on is: Make the wiring in the panel nice & neat. It's easier for the inspector to see what's going on. PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 01:00
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PainterofCrap posted:
This. I DIY'd my service install and complete house rewire before I became a professional electrician. The inspector saw my meticulously neat panel and gave me a green sticker without looking at anything else.
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Jul 19, 2012 02:29
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